Something that just PISSES me off...

[sleey0]

I can no longer find fuel without ethanol where I live. Sad, sad day.

I am not a big believer in ethanol saving the environment or doing shit really.

All it does it possibly hurt your engine in the long run.

I even read an article that some gas stations are actually advertising 100% gas / no ethanol.

What the FRACK has this world come to?

Reminds me of Daybreakers: "Now serving 30% REAL blood!"

For fucks sake....Just gimme gas!

[tk-421]

I am not a big believer in ethanol saving the environment or doing shit really.

I agree, at least as far as corn ethanol, which is definitely NOT the answer to our environmental troubles. Corn should be exclusively grown for food. Using it for anything else removes the balance between food availability and demand, hence making corn more expensive for everyone else.

Not to mention that ethanol is not that efficient anyway. You need a lot of corn to make a little ethanol.

All it does it hurt your engine in the long run.This I'm not so sure about. Do you have some info you'd like to share on the subject?

[Astroman]

They did that here too. :frown:

[rningonfumes]

In minimal ratios, ethanol doesn't hurt the engine but when you get to higher ratios of ethanol vs gasoline mix, the ethanol wears out certain components on your engine because it is more corrosive than gasoline ie, the seals and what not.

If you look up E85 and flexfuel vehicles, you'll find that E85 is 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline. At such ratios it is only recommended in cars which can handle the fuel mainly because of the corrosive tendencies of ethanol on the parts that are affected by it. Flexfuel vehicles means that there was as substitute or beefed up version of a component which would normally be eaten up by the ethanol.

[henry33]

ethanol is shit I am so glad that we do not use this in here

[tk-421]

In minimal ratios, ethanol doesn't hurt the engine but when you get to higher ratios of ethanol vs gasoline mix, the ethanol wears out certain components on your engine because it is more corrosive than gasoline ie, the seals and what not.

If you look up E85 and flexfuel vehicles, you'll find that E85 is 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline. At such ratios it is only recommended in cars which can handle the fuel mainly because of the corrosive tendencies of ethanol on the parts that are affected by it. Flexfuel vehicles means that there was as substitute or beefed up version of a component which would normally be eaten up by the ethanol.

Thanks for the info! :thumbsup:

[chrisj]

So there is a conspiracy, then? I see lots of those idiot Tahoes on the road that say FlexFuel, so because GM can't make their cars last as long as Toyotas, they're gonna Ethanol/FlexFuel our little cars to death? :(

[UTVitz]

Interesting to see this post-I couldn't agree more-I absolutely do not want to put it in my cars and found one local premium grade "Phillips/Conoco" station that said they were not going to put ethanol in. I go out of my way to use just this station. I once got some gas at a local Chevron with the "warning" sticker on the pump about containing up to 10% ethanol and since we don't have vapor recovery on our pump nozzles you get a good whiff of the fumes. The ethanol mix has a strange sweet smell that regular fuel does not. Many mechanics I trust have said don't worry about it, but MTBE oxygenation is still fresh in my mind and a tank full of that stuff fried my fuel pump and injectors on a 92 toyota pickup 14 years ago-fortunately we could prove the cause and Chevron paid for all the repairs-truck never ran the same, though after that.

[fnkngrv]

This I'm not so sure about. Do you have some info you'd like to share on the subject?

I am not sure if the seals were bad from the factory with the situation or not, but here in northern Maine the gas has 15% ethanol. There is a lady that I go through for picture frames and she has an 05 Camry. Last November her engine seized. After it was investigated locally they apparently sent the concerned parts to Toyota corporate and after several weeks they came back stating that they would not warranty her engine being replaced due to the fact that ethanol was the cause for the failure. Toyota specifically states in their documentation with the car that you are actually to use only 100% gasoline fuel...no ethanol is allowed for warranty purposes. She is an older lady and her car had 43k on it. I worry about ethanol myself. I have gotten into conversations with a few people about it and they try to compare it to using unleaded fuel in an older motor that was built for leaded fuel...to me not an apples to apples comparison, but I guess that is a debate for another day.

[Darb]

Not to mention that ethanol is not that efficient anyway. You need a lot of corn to make a little ethanol.

The primary issue is that the amount of petroleum products used to make fertilizer (via Haber-bosch process) for cornfields grossly outweighs the amount of petroleum saved using ethanol.

Personally, I won't be completely happy until we have an improved infrastructure for all-electric cars and a bigger shift away from coal-fueled power plants.

[STC]

I can no longer find fuel without ethanol where I live. Sad, sad day.

Here in Central PA (State College) two (2) of the last non-ethanol stations had to change over to ethanol blend. They get it (gas) from their supplier (pipeline from Altoona) who had to change on September 16th... PA State Law through compliance of Federal EPA ethanol rules. One station will run out of the non-ethanol gas early next week and the other mom/pop station in early to mid to October. Looks like I will continue partial fills till it's all gone!

I am not a big believer in ethanol saving the environment or doing shit really.

Neither am I. My peeve is how it is produced... the cost! Total waste... not efficient... not 'Green'. Who's really benefiting?

All it does it hurt your engine in the long run.

I definately hear from small engine/carburator and farm equipment owners they have problems with idle when using. It really screws up their engines!

Cheers!

[why?]

Personally, I won't be completely happy until we have an improved infrastructure for all-electric cars and a bigger shift away from coal-fueled power plants.

That will never happen. The oil companies have far too much power, and switching to electric cars that might actually make sense would cost trillions.

And we should be using coal more, it is a heck of a lot better using something we have tons of rather than importing anything from somewhere else.

Ethanol from corn will always be crap.

[sleey0]

I don't have any facts to go on about ethanol hurting engines, but I read stories all the time just like fnkngrv posted.

I hear plenty of my tech buddies and mechanic friends talk about the issues with it.

Look, if it actually DID anything then maybe I would reconsider. BUT, since IT ISNT DOING SQUAT but POSSIBLY hurting our engines, then why should I like it?

Really, REALLY pisses me off to no extent.

I go through lots of trouble to maintain my vehicle and buy premium oils and fluids.

The one thing my car needs everday and I can't get it without it being contaminated?

Think about it....

[127.0.0.1]

most cars since 1998 can handle up to 15% ethanol no problem, no corrosion
and [almost definitively] all of them since 2004 can

BUT, there are some that may not.

[47_MasoN_47]

There are 2 gas stations within 10 miles of my house that don't have ethanol in their gas. If I'm ever out that way I always fuel up there, regardless of whether I really need to or not. Ethanol FTL!

[sleey0]

most cars since 1998 can handle up to 15% ethanol no problem, no corrosion
and [almost definitively] all of them since 2004 can

BUT, there are some that may not.

Could you elaborate a bit? Maybe provide some links to info on what the mfs changed in the vehicles to permit safe use of ethanol in our engines, fuel lines, pumps, injectors, tanks, etc?

Thanks!

[why?]

There are 2 gas stations within 10 miles of my house that don't have ethanol in their gas. If I'm ever out that way I always fuel up there, regardless of whether I really need to or not. Ethanol FTL!

If I could find a station that didn't use it I would make a point of always going there. It is just so annoying knowing that the ethanol in the gas hurts mileage just by existing.

[fnkngrv]

found on gearheadcity.com:


Ford has sold more than 15,000 Focus FFV [flex fuel vehicle] in Sweden alone
since 2001. Ford made three primary modifications to their Flexi-Fuel Focus :

* Valves and valve seats of the 1.8 litre 16-valve gasoline engine are
made of specially hardened material
* Engine-control software senses the ratio of gas and ethanol in the fuel tank
and adjusts the injection and ignition accordingly. This is done automatically
without the driver having to make any adjustments.
* Finally, because bio-ethanol fuel has less positive cold starting characteristics
than gas, the cylinder block has particularly effective pre-heating when the
temperature dips below 5 degrees Fahrenheit.

[KrazyDawg]

I wonder if they get a tax break for producing flex fuel vehicles.

[STC]

^ Probably! How much? I would guess not much...

[why?]

I wonder if they get a tax break for producing flex fuel vehicles.

Probably, although all they really need to do is pay someone and they get any tax breaks they wanted. For a while in the tax code there was a specific tax break written for GM only, basically said the company at the HQ address would get a tax break for whatever.

The wonders of lobbying.

[Black Yaris]

gas here has been 10% ethanol for as long as I can remember.

and you ever notice just about every e85 car is a domestic?

[jcemitte]

THE ANSWER: hydrogen powered cars, with an internum diesel engine to help the process along until we can do the whole process more efficiently.

and most deffinently a ludacris speed button on the shifter.

[sleey0]

NO I won't. that is up to you.

Darn. I was hoping to be proved wrong.

Oh, well. Guess I will stick with the "ethanol sux" campaign:)

:thumbdown:

[STC]

The gas station owner tells me this Monday 10/4/10 they will be changing out their tanks (filters/pumping out the water) and receiving their first batch from their supplier who was forced by PA State Mandate Law to change over to ethanol earlier this month... :frown:

The amount is under 1,500 gallons. I will be filling up tomorrow morning! :smile:

Good news is the owner told me they have over 5,000 gallons of non-ethanol 92 octane premium gas left!!! :smile: He mentioned that should be good until November, since the demand for premium gas is low! He said though, if people start to find out, it will be sooner till they run out...

I guess when all is done, farmers, small engine, and carburator owners will have to use gas stabilizers/treatments to counter ethanol for their engines... like STABIL-Fuel Stabilizer... :iono:

Cheers!

[why?]

The gas station owner tells me this Monday 10/4/10 they will be changing out their tanks (filters/pumping out the water) and receiving their first batch from their supplier who was forced by PA State Mandate Law to change over to ethanol earlier this month... :frown:

The amount is under 1,500 gallons. I will be filling up tomorrow morning! :smile:

Good news is the owner told me they have over 5,000 gallons of non-ethanol 92 octane premium gas left!!! :smile: He mentioned that should be good until November, since the demand for premium gas is low! He said though, if people start to find out, it will be sooner till they run out...

I guess when all is done, farmers, small engine, and carburator owners will have to use gas stabilizers/treatments to counter ethanol for their engines... like STABIL-Fuel Stabilizer... :iono:

Cheers!

the problem is a lot of those types of things don't work that well with ethanol, the water in the ethanol tends to suck them up before they can interact with the gas.

[STC]

the problem is a lot of those types of things don't work that well with ethanol, the water in the ethanol tends to suck them up before they can interact with the gas.

Yes, this is the case! I talked to several farmers and they use dry gas in combination. Especially, during the winter (dormant) months... :smile:

Cheers!

[mryaris]

Ethanol is not going to cause any issues with your cars.....especially in the 10% range (i.e. E10, which is what most oxygenated fuels are nowadays). I've lived in Colorado for 26 years (driving for 23) and our gas has always been oxygenated....originally with MTBE, and now with ethanol. In high concentrations ethanol will cause driveability issues, but as several people have already stated, all newer cars are designed to run on the stuff in the 10% range. I still have the owners manual for my 1988 Pontiac Fiero and it even states that 10% ethanol is OK and that was hardly a high-tech vehicle. I use E10 in my 1959 Austin-Healey (twin carbs) and have had no issues with idle or driveability either. I did experiment with E85 once and it drove better at WOT/high RPM's, but it wouldn't idle to save its life. A computer controlled car would fare much better, but prolonged use of E85 in a car not designed for it will definitley damage the engine and its peripherals.

Honestly, quit worrying over nothing. I use E10 in my Yaris and it still drives nice and gets 40MPG. I have no doubts that it will still be going strong 10 years from now....ethanol notwithstanding.

[STC]

Ethanol is not going to cause any issues with your cars.....especially in the 10% range (i.e. E10, which is what most oxygenated fuels are nowadays). I've lived in Colorado for 26 years (driving for 23) and our gas has always been oxygenated....originally with MTBE, and now with ethanol. In high concentrations ethanol will cause driveability issues, but as several people have already stated, all newer cars are designed to run on the stuff in the 10% range. I still have the owners manual for my 1988 Pontiac Fiero and it even states that 10% ethanol is OK and that was hardly a high-tech vehicle. I use E10 in my 1959 Austin-Healey (twin carbs) and have had no issues with idle or driveability either. I did experiment with E85 once and it drove better at WOT/high RPM's, but it wouldn't idle to save its life. A computer controlled car would fare much better, but prolonged use of E85 in a car not designed for it will definitley damage the engine and its peripherals.

Honestly, quit worrying over nothing. I use E10 in my Yaris and it still drives nice and gets 40MPG. I have no doubts that it will still be going strong 10 years from now....ethanol notwithstanding.

Nope, I'm not worried... :smile:

The Yaris can handle E10 with no problem. I'm talking about the long affects of alcohol fuel to new and especially small engines/farm equipment. We know ethanol can cause problems with the older engines and fixtures. This (alcohol fuel) is relatively new... under 10 years in the US. Too soon to see the long term affects that may pop-up?

The US is the world's leader in ethanol production... at 11 million gallons a year followed by Brazil at 6 million gallons. Brazil gets their ethanol from sugar cain cellulose which is more efficient to produce, while we produce it from our main crop corn which is less efficient.

My concern is how policies are instituted without proper foresight! The waste in producing the ethanol from corn is obscene. US Government (corporatocracy) subsidizes the agribusiness, diverting corn based food production. Costs rise on both ends (supply and demand)... especially food. The American people are not the beneficiaries of this policy in any way. We are constantly being told it is good for the world ecosystem? :iono: I have my reservations...

Cheers! :smile:

[mryaris]

Nope, I'm not worried... :smile:

The Yaris can handle E10 with no problem. I'm talking about the long affects of alcohol fuel to new and especially small engines/farm equipment. We know ethanol can cause problems with the older engines and fixtures. This (alcohol fuel) is relatively new... under 10 years in the US. Too soon to see the long term affects that may pop-up?

Gotcha! I don't own a lawn mower so I'm not as concerned as others are. :smile:



The US is the world's leader in ethanol production... at 11 million gallons a year followed by Brazil at 6 million gallons. Brazil gets their ethanol from sugar cain cellulose which is more efficient to produce, while we produce it from our main crop corn which is less efficient.

My concern is how policies are instituted without proper foresight! The waste in producing the ethanol from corn is obscene. US Government (corporatocracy) subsidizes the agribusiness, diverting corn based food production. Costs rise on both ends (supply and demand)... especially food. The American people are not the beneficiaries of this policy in any way. We are constantly being told it is good for the world ecosystem? :iono: I have my reservations...

Cheers! :smile:

OK....I understand where you're coming from. I did some papers in college 8 years or so ago about ethanol (more specifically E85 fuels) for my Economics classes. This was around the time when E85 was just becoming known....we had a few stations that sold it, but most of the country hadn't heard of it yet. There was a lot of excitement over ethanol because gas had spiked and hit $2/gallon for the first time (remember when that was huge news?), but the cost-benefit analysis on corn based ethanol was grossly skewed with the subsidies you mentioned.

I personally don't mind the fact that we are using ethanol in our fuels, but I think the current production methods are inefficient and cause more harm than good. Now if we ever get an efficient biomass ethanol production system up and running I think people would come on board since it uses waste plant materials, but who knows if or when that will ever happen.

[docB]

Ethanol does not have the energy density of gas. You & I would get better milage w/o the corn crap. As for flex fuel vehicles, they exist due to the efforts of the sh!theads that lobby for the farmers. CAFE started in 1975. Get better fuel milage to reduce foreign dependency. The clowns that get Fed money to grow the special corn for E85 paid into the system to get the energy equivalent for flex fuel cars and trucks. Read that as a E85 vehicle gets the same as like 60mpg. We all know next to none of them have ever burned E85. To think they will get better milage due to E85 is as big a joke. Any test shows you need to burn way more E85 to go a given distance compared real gasoline. But if GMand Chrysler sell these unreal E85 super milage cars, the CAFE number is met and they can avoid R&D to build a car like the Yaris. You know how much you need a 10mpg SUV or pick-up. Hell, they fund the disgusting bounuses and retirement funds.

[STC]

Ethanol does not have the energy density of gas. You & I would get better milage w/o the corn crap. As for flex fuel vehicles, they exist due to the efforts of the sh!theads that lobby for the farmers. CAFE started in 1975. Get better fuel milage to reduce foreign dependency. The clowns that get Fed money to grow the special corn for E85 paid into the system to get the energy equivalent for flex fuel cars and trucks. Read that as a E85 vehicle gets the same as like 60mpg. We all know next to none of them have ever burned E85. To think they will get better milage due to E85 is as big a joke. Any test shows you need to burn way more E85 to go a given distance compared real gasoline. But if GMand Chrysler sell these unreal E85 super milage cars, the CAFE number is met and they can avoid R&D to build a car like the Yaris. You know how much you need a 10mpg SUV or pick-up. Hell, they fund the disgusting bounuses and retirement funds.



http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=11865473

Progress for who? :wink:

Cheers!

[darkMINI]

E85 may sound like the devil, but when you compare it to foreign oil, it's really not that bad. Especially when China starts controlling the major sea trade routes and taxing the hell out of our fuel imports...unless something changes soon.
I've been working on a government installation for a long time and E85 was forced on our fleet a long time ago. Our vehicles get the shit run out of them and many stay running all day long, and do so just fine. In fact most of them have between 100 and 300 thousand miles on them. And these are NOT flex-fuel vehicles at all. We go through a lot of transmissions, axles, tires, and u-joints but I have never heard of an engine replacement yet.
The only downfall I've noticed...our gas mileage pretty much sucks, they start harder in the winter, and the exhaust smells like crap.
Ahhh...I remember when I was pissed over the loss of leaded gas at the pumps!

[firemachine69]

The plus-side of gas with ethanol is it essentially makes fuel injector cleaners obsolete...

[why?]

The plus-side of gas with ethanol is it essentially makes fuel injector cleaners obsolete...

is that really worth water in the gas, and a 10% fuel cut?

[darkMINI]

It does clean up dirty and fouled injectors. Works wonders on CEL's due to misfires. Will also clean out your fuel tank, in turn plugging your fuel filter :(
It makes a good "occasional maintenance" fuel, but i'd prefer to use straight gas on a daily basis if given a choice.

If you consider BP's oil spill E-85 is much better for the ecosystem. Besides that, drilling pumping and refining oil and shipping it from the other side of the planet, is creating an incalculable amount of waste. Much more than locally made Corn gas. You have to look at the bigger picture.

[slothman86]

Good info on this thread. Ethanol pisses me off too!

[daf62757]

So there is a conspiracy, then? I see lots of those idiot Tahoes on the road that say FlexFuel, so because GM can't make their cars last as long as Toyotas, they're gonna Ethanol/FlexFuel our little cars to death? :(

I believe that the US cars need to make cars that can be purchased as fleet cars for government use. The Federal govt. now only buys cars that can take the flex fuel.

I haven't seen any foreign cars that take flex fuel....and they can't be purchased for most US govt fleets so I think...believe...that is one of the reasons for so many flex fuel vehicles by US makers.

As for recent US cars....the government bought GM and Mopar so that is just political correctness being used with our tax money to support a failed technology. You will pay your taxes to support the purchase of these companies....more in corn prices to pay for limited corn supplies.

Thanks to our government for messing up two things!

[daf62757]

The primary issue is that the amount of petroleum products used to make fertilizer (via Haber-bosch process) for cornfields grossly outweighs the amount of petroleum saved using ethanol.

Personally, I won't be completely happy until we have an improved infrastructure for all-electric cars and a bigger shift away from coal-fueled power plants.

I agree....but how would you do that? It takes too long to recharge a car and if you are on a long trip, it wouldn't be practical. Also, 95% of the fleet in the US is fossil fuel. It would take 10 to 15 years to refresh that fleet with electric.

[daf62757]

That will never happen. The oil companies have far too much power, and switching to electric cars that might actually make sense would cost trillions.

And we should be using coal more, it is a heck of a lot better using something we have tons of rather than importing anything from somewhere else.

Ethanol from corn will always be crap.

I keep hearing about alternative sources...i.e., algae, that is much better and more plentiful.

Using corn drives up the price of corn. Also, not all corn is for human consumption. Some of it is for other purposes, like feed corn.

[birdman]

We need to get off petroleum. Creating Ethanol has a similar carbon foot print as gasoline when you start from when the plants are young absorbing petroleum fertilizers and then all the steps from fermentation to finish product. The US government knows that switching over to electric is inevitable and could happen now but as long as they can con Americans on fuel that has oil mixed into it the more money for the oil companies. It's the same with (clean?)diesel and hybrids. These are just another way of prolonging oil. The future is in electric cars. It is inevitable and is happening in Israel right now. Renault/Nissan is selling an affordable mid sized sedan for Europe where Gas stations will keep charged batteries that exchange with the ones in your car in about 3 minutes if you need to extend your range. These cars are affordable unlike the Volt we have here now. The US oil companies lobbyists are slowing our change over to affordable electric as long as they can.

[RedRide]

Let's not forget that gasoline is a by product of refining crude. It was considerd almost useless until the IC engine was invented. A car does not consume petroleom, it just uses its by product.
So, as long as we have any need for refining crude there will always be gas to use.

Weening ourselves off oil is a political myth.
The very best we can do is try to use less petroleom and use all its products more wisely.

Having said that, I think the future lies in developing more efficient gas powered cars/engines and alternate power/engine/motor/fuel technologys.
Anyone who has what seems like a good idea (either real or percieved) will get a piece of the economic pie, it's inevitable.

[TLyttle]

Right, RedRide; weaning ourselves off oil is a myth, but not impossible. Recently I have been experimenting with wood as an alternative in as many spaces as possible, ie, I built a wood car instead of fiberglass, a wood pedal car instead of a blow-molded POS from China, even a simple garbage container instead of the plastic nasty from Wally World. Even my rust-ridden 245 isn't immune from my tablesaw terrors: I replaced the rear floor with 1/8 ply and 1x2 frame, far lighter, and plenty strong. Next are the rotten panels around the rear wheels, using birch ply and fir framing, properly finished.

I looked long and hard at electric vehicles, but found that I could nearly double the FE of a chassis by building it from wood: lighter, quieter, and stronger. My next challenge will be a completely wood electric car; not that hard, and certainly no challenge to the Big Three, but as efficient as what most sensible people require...

[daf62757]

Let's not forget that gasoline is a by product of refining crude. It was considerd almost useless until the IC engine was invented. A car does not consume petroleom, it just uses its by product.
So, as long as we have any need for refining crude there will always be gas to use.

Weening ourselves off oil is a political myth.
The very best we can do is try to use less petroleom and use all its products more wisely.

Having said that, I think the future lies in developing more efficient gas powered cars/engines and alternate power/engine/motor/fuel technologys.
Anyone who has what seems like a good idea (either real or percieved) will get a piece of the economic pie, it's inevitable.

Well said.:respekt: