LED Install Problem (Tails)

[Betrivent]

So I have no idea how I managed to screw this up, but somehow, somethign went wrong.

I unplugged all the stock bulbs, replaced them all with LEDs (reverse, markers, and brake). Firstly, the markers flash way too quickly (Figure that out, resistance problem). Secondly, and the big one, is that for some reason, whenever I depress the brake with the LEDs in, the lights would not get brighter, so indicate a stop (this is with headlights on, so driving lights). But, if I have no lights on, just DRLs (so, daytime operation) and step on the brake, the LED brake lights would apply, but then my dash would dim and indicate lights were on. What the fack?!

Anybody have any idea what just happened?

[marcus]

need to get the install diagram and the color codes..i think you also need to replace a plastic socket on the wirings..

[Betrivent]

These LEds have diodes that intensify when a different current is run through it, I have tested them with a battery. The problem is now, I have my bulbs ALL back to stock. But, my rear right still will not come out when I depress the brakes. Like, normal driving light is okay, they are on, but when I brake the light does not brighten

[Betrivent]

need to get the install diagram and the color codes..i think you also need to replace a plastic socket on the wirings..

Do you think this would explain the brakes? Because I know the signals require a relay.

Merci beaucoup mon amis :P

[CTScott]

The 7443 bulbs have 4 contacts. Make sure you didn't bend one of the socket contacts when you were switching back and forth.

The turn signals need the replacement flasher module or a load resistor because the standard flasher relies on the resistance of the bulb filament for its timing circuit.

The Yaris doesn't have dead bulb detection, so load resistors are not necessary for anything except the turns.

The stop/tail bulb has two filaments. If your replacement LEDs were not true 7443 bulb replacements, then they may have been jumping the stop light circuit over to the tail light circuit and hence causing the headlight indicator to illuminate (and the cluster to dim) when you stepped on the brake pedal.

[severous01]

led's are one way...take the bulb out, turn it 180* and put it back in...see if it works.

[Betrivent]

The 7443 bulbs have 4 contacts. Make sure you didn't bend one of the socket contacts when you were switching back and forth.

I will check tomorrow

The turn signals need the replacement flasher module or a load resistor because the standard flasher relies on the resistance of the bulb filament for its timing circuit.

Do you know how much resistance?

The Yaris doesn't have dead bulb detection, so load resistors are not necessary for anything except the turns.

The stop/tail bulb has two filaments. If your replacement LEDs were not true 7443 bulb replacements, then they may have been jumping the stop light circuit over to the tail light circuit and hence causing the headlight indicator to illuminate (and the cluster to dim) when you stepped on the brake pedal.

I am sure these have two filaments, since powering them through two separate filaments yields two different levels of light

led's are one way...take the bulb out, turn it 180* and put it back in...see if it works.

I will try that tomorrow, I had considered it, but having plugged and unplugged so many times to test I thought it highly unlikely I didn't get it right at some point

Thanks guys, I will try it again tomorrow! (later today!)

[CTScott]

For the resistance question, I highly suggest buying a flasher that is made for driving LED lights instead of using a resistor. The resistor has to be a very low resistance value (~1 ohm) and extremely high wattage capability (20-50 Watts), which really defeats the purpose of the LEDs.

[Betrivent]

Alright, in that case I will look into that relay that I saw ray has

[Betrivent]

need to get the install diagram and the color codes..i think you also need to replace a plastic socket on the wirings..

Ct do you know anything about this? So is there a specific orientation I have to plug in the bulbs to work? And is the socket supposed to be different as well, I can't discern a difference in the filaments between the LEDs and the originals

[CTScott]

Ct do you know anything about this? So is there a specific orientation I have to plug in the bulbs to work? And is the socket supposed to be different as well, I can't discern a difference in the filaments between the LEDs and the originals

That's some bum info. You don't need to change sockets or rewire to install LED replacement bulbs.

The comment above about flipping them because of polarity may be true, if the replacement bulbs don't contain rectifiers.

[Betrivent]

I will try them with different orientations today, thanks a lot! Will probably report back to see what I find. Thanks a lot, much appreciated

[Betrivent]

Alright, so. I tried the LEDs in the brake lights again, with somewhat interesting results. They don't work properly still, but when applying brakes the first time with all driving lights on, I saw what looked like a dead wafer on the bulb flicker. Both bulbs have a dead wafer, nto in the same place though. Anyway, it only happened the once. After that, the same problem as yesterday persisted, the dash lights would come on, also with the front park lights. I'm going to try switching some polarity around and see what that does.

[Betrivent]

Yet another discovery yields that for some reason, my front LEFT park light is flickering. Though with the rear lights, I have switched the bulbs form side to side, it is always the same bulb not dimming to normal "driving" levels, and always the same one that works, regardless what sides. I have also tested the normal bulbs with the bulb that seemingly works, with the same results.

[Betrivent]

Okay, so even MORE messed up now. My stock bulbs do not work, at all. They turn on when I turn the driving lights on, BUT, now for some reason, my FRONT RIGHT park light bulb is reverse with the side marker on the front headlight housing, shown in the picture.

Oh god this is so messed up. So now my car is technically undriveable because I have no brake lights. I really hope it's just a relay being fried, because all fuses look fine.

[CTScott]

Okay, so even MORE messed up now. My stock bulbs do not work, at all. They turn on when I turn the driving lights on, BUT, now for some reason, my FRONT RIGHT park light bulb is reverse with the side marker on the front headlight housing, shown in the picture.

Oh god this is so messed up. So now my car is technically undriveable because I have no brake lights. I really hope it's just a relay being fried, because all fuses look fine.

Are you sure you are putting the correct bulbs in the correct sockets? Swapping single and double filament bulbs will cause issues. Also, did you check the rear brake light sockets to make sure that the contacts aren't bent?

[Betrivent]

Are you sure you are putting the correct bulbs in the correct sockets? Swapping single and double filament bulbs will cause issues. Also, did you check the rear brake light sockets to make sure that the contacts aren't bent?

If we're dealing with bulb type here, I've placed the stock ones back in, and the problem persists

The sockets are fine, since there is normal operation in either one when the bulbs are used in certain configurations.

Single being these:

http://www.marinco.com/files/img_main/products/LED%20wedge%20base.jpg

And Dual being these:

http://www.energyspeed.com/media/5/a2079181291a62893713b3_m.jpg

(with two filaments per side)

Correct? In which case I have dual filament bulbs, but notwithstanding the new bulbs work or not, I can't even return my car to the state it was before I somehow messed this up. Based on my predicament, with the front park getting mixed up with the side marker, and my brake lights not applying, have you got a theory? Thank you SO much CT.

EDIT: THis is what I feel right now: http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/

EDIT2: I've checked every fuse under the panel near the pedals, nothing is out there, I'm goign to check the fuses in the engine bay, likely nothing out there as well. Could a dead or fried relay be causing this?

[CTScott]

Correct on single vs. dual filament, and it's really just the front and rear parking light bulbs that you could accidentally reverse (front gets single, rear gets double).

I would pull all of the lights and go one quadrant at a time. Once you get the first quadrant working completely and correctly, you move onto the next. After the first quadrant add one bulb at a time to the next quadrant to reduce your variables.

[Betrivent]

Okay, after checking all fuses I have come to the conclusion that it is very probably a relay. What doyou mean by Quadrant? Like FR, LR, FL, RL? (Front right etc.*)

[CTScott]

Okay, after checking all fuses I have come to the conclusion that it is very probably a relay. What doyou mean by Quadrant? Like FR, LR, FL, RL? (Front right etc.*)

Yes, by quadrants I mean FR, etc.

The only relay I could see getting damaged from what you have done is the flasher. It's pretty hard to damage a simple mechanical relay without first smoking a fuse.

[Betrivent]

Alrioght taking out the rear brake lights have yielded some interesting results:

Both rear lights are not in, all lights return to normal
One rear brake light is put in, all lights remain normal, but brake lights still do not apply
Both rear brake lights are in, stuff hits the fan- electrically speaking.

Is there a relay or fuse specifically dedicated to the brake lights I could have fried?

EDIT: Derp, the flasher. I thought that only controls the signals. Now my problem is getting the little sucker out, it's wedged in tight.

[Eatoman]

The 7443 bulbs have 4 contacts. Make sure you didn't bend one of the socket contacts when you were switching back and forth.

The turn signals need the replacement flasher module or a load resistor because the standard flasher relies on the resistance of the bulb filament for its timing circuit.

The Yaris doesn't have dead bulb detection, so load resistors are not necessary for anything except the turns.

The stop/tail bulb has two filaments. If your replacement LEDs were not true 7443 bulb replacements, then they may have been jumping the stop light circuit over to the tail light circuit and hence causing the headlight indicator to illuminate (and the cluster to dim) when you stepped on the brake pedal.

Say wha?? This is all Greek to me dudes! LOL! :biggrin:

[Betrivent]

7443 is a type of bulb, a flasher module is a mechanical switch, if you will, powered by electricity to "activate" when current is applied, for instance if I apply the brakes, electricity will run through the module, and allow current from the battery to flow to the lights (this is simplified). LEDs require less power than incandescent bulbs, and therefor have less resistance to electric current. The car thinks that this is because a bulb is out and it flashes very rapidly at you when you attempt to signal. To fix this, with LED bulbs, you would need to add resistance to the line, or replace the module so that the car thinks that everything is as it should be.

EDIT: Alright CT, I took out the flasher module, and I turned the driving lights on, the rear brake lights came on, but not to brake capacity. They do not activate even when I have no driving lights on.. though upon reflection that doesn't determine where the problem is still.

EDIT2: Upon further troubleshooting, we have determined it is a relay. Though the problem is now, I don't know which relay on the instrument panel it is.

[CTScott]

The brake lights don't have a relay in their circuit, so for them, check the STOP fuse in under dash fuse panel.

[Betrivent]

I did, and all the fuses are fine. This is infinitely perplexing then. Howeber, I did check etimago's EWD and found that the stop signal goes through some sort of BOX, if you cancall it that, on the diagram, I just assumed that wasa relay

[Betrivent]

http://www.etimago.com/yaris/repairmanual/EWD.pdf

on page 143

[CTScott]

http://www.etimago.com/yaris/repairmanual/EWD.pdf

on page 143

No relay - That's just a junction connector.

[CTScott]

For the heck of it, replace the stop fuse. It might not be fully popped, but might be so thin that it's causing a wicked voltage drop.

[Betrivent]

I will try that tomorrow, I have a gut feeling it's something really simple like that too, but my middle stop light works? Like the one at the top of the hatch. Shouldn't it also fail if my fuse is blown/malfunctioning?

[CTScott]

I will try that tomorrow, I have a gut feeling it's something really simple like that too, but my middle stop light works? Like the one at the top of the hatch. Shouldn't it also fail if my fuse is blown/malfunctioning?

That would actually make sense, as the center light is LED, so it draws very little current in comparison to the bulbs.

[Betrivent]

Ahhh I see. I will check that right after I get some coffee.. zzzzzz

EDIT: Didn't get around to it today, will check tomorrow.

[Betrivent]

Alright, so update. I tried replacing the STOP fuse in the 9 position on the fuse panel under the dash, and no luck. I've been thinking, if when I plug in two LED bulbs, and one comes on, and when I plug in two incandescent bulbs, and NONE come on, could it be I've fried something that provides the two sockets with power? I can only think it's something near the front of the car, since I've examined all the electronics in the back of the car.

EDIT: So obviously it's got to be between the fuse and the lights, that there is a problem. Could i have partially burned the junction connector?

[CTScott]

Alright, so update. I tried replacing the STOP fuse in the 9 position on the fuse panel under the dash, and no luck. I've been thinking, if when I plug in two LED bulbs, and one comes on, and when I plug in two incandescent bulbs, and NONE come on, could it be I've fried something that provides the two sockets with power? I can only think it's something near the front of the car, since I've examined all the electronics in the back of the car.

EDIT: So obviously it's got to be between the fuse and the lights, that there is a problem. Could i have partially burned the junction connector?

If it's not the fuse, then I would suspect something with the bulb sockets. Can you snap decent macro photos of the two sockets?

[Betrivent]

I will do my best. But I am skeptical that both have failed? Especially since when I switched LED bulbs to troubleshoot, one bulb always worked, regardless which socket it is in, and the other did not, also the original bulbs did not work at all again after I screwed up the first time.

[CTScott]

I will do my best. But I am skeptical that both have failed? Especially since when I switched LED bulbs to troubleshoot, one bulb always worked, regardless which socket it is in, and the other did not, also the original bulbs did not work at all again after I screwed up the first time.

Only one socket needs to be messed up to cause what you are seeing.

[Betrivent]

I will get you pictures, but it will have to be later since I do not have a garage to work in and need to wait until later when I have access to one.

[CTScott]

Another thing that would make sense is to take voltage measurements. Do you have a volt meter?

[Betrivent]

I do. We checked the elements in the back when the car was on, with driving lights, and when brakes were applied. It seems that the driving lights come on fine, but the wire that provides the extra juice to amplify the brake lights don't come on.

[CTScott]

I do. We checked the elements in the back when the car was on, with driving lights, and when brakes were applied. It seems that the driving lights come on fine, but the wire that provides the extra juice to amplify the brake lights don't come on.

There's no amplifier. Basically, two circuits supply power separately to the two filaments of the bulb (one of which is brighter than the other).

On the bulb socket, the black wire is ground, the green is the tail light feed and the red is the stop light feed. If you measure red to black with the brake pressed and green to black with the tail lights on, you should see 12V on each.

[Betrivent]

That is what I meant :). My electric jargon isn't professional grade my apologies. I'm sure I checked that, but I will check again with this new info. I can't thank you enough for your input :D

[Betrivent]

OKay, so finally got a chance to open up m ycar again to look. Used a volt meter. Both the tails and the brake circuits work. However, the brakes are the green wire, and the tails are the red wire (on both sides). Both sides work, have used the volt meter on both. However, the bulbs refuse to work with the brake light signal. They will always come on for the tail light signal, but never, under any circumstance, for the brake light signal. I took some quick picture with my cellphone. If they're not what you need I will try to take more with a better camera.

[Betrivent]

Oh my god. I am so stupid. BOTH the bulbs were burnt out. That was all. I just didn't think to check because the likelihood of both burning out at the same time seemed insane. FML. Thanks SO much CT. Sorry to waste your time trying to troubleshoot a problem that wasn't there. I'm so angry and relieved right now. Didn't know that I could feel those two emotions at the same time.

PS. ON that note, Adam, the stop light bulbs you gave me are bunk ;(

PPS. The other bulbs work fine though, thanks!

[bobolinko]

I just can't help thinkin we've been max trolled. Nobody can be that Xumb...

Not even a bucket of rocks..... when you put in an open fillament bulb, it won't affect anything at all....

Oh well, guess some get their jollies in different ways.