D4D Diesel for USA?

[birdman]

With the arrival of clean diesel engines in VW's and Audi's here in the US has anyone heard anything about Toyota bringing their line of D4D clean diesels too?

[severous01]

hah.....yea right. with all the noisey and smelly diesel trucks out there...americans seem to think that all diesels are noisy and dirty. but, bmw has a 335d that's amazing. 30mpg on highway and pushing 435tq and 250 hp. not bad seeing as how it's very nice, powerful, efficient, quiet, and not much more expensive than a 335i. your fuel cost per year is about 1000 less than that of a gas car. and it makes more torque...not as much hp though...and doesnt come near the rpm of a gas car. but then again...with the torque, who needs rpm? and that's part of reliability of the engine as well.

[PaddyMac]

Hope and dream one can hope and dream.

[henry33]

its all depend on the demand if the customers force toyota to import D4D to usa it will do so . but I do not think that for Yaris has diesel some special meaning since it is efficient also with petrol engine ;) for big cars it is the best option have driven the V10 diesel from VW man that was something :D

[birdman]

That's the beauty of clean diesel it doesn't have that awful smell like the old technology and current American made ones. Plus you can burn bio fuel and help our farmers stay afloat. Bio diesel exhaust smells like french fries and is a whole lot easier on the environment than gasoline.

[birdman]

The Yaris with the D4D gets up to 84 mpg. They are sold in many markets especially where fuel is so costly and environmental respect is valued highly.

[firemachine69]

The average consumer will never accept having 6K of emission-control stuff hanging off a 13K car.

/end thread

[henry33]

what 6K for what ?

[Tamago]

The average consumer will never accept having 6K of emission-control stuff hanging off a 13K car.

/end thread

what he means is, no one will justify spending 20K on a car that's not worth it. apparently a Prius IS WORTH IT?

the average consumer is dumber than a bag of hammers, and could be sold anything if toyota marketed it to them with proper subliminal advertising, or just have a few a-list celebs get on the bandwagon, then all of america would me-too themselves into the D-4D

i've toyed with the idea of importing the engine..

[Black Yaris]

big oil will prevent large # of diesel engines in the US

[severous01]

big oil will prevent large # of diesel engines in the US

agreed. but, i'm seriously wanting the ford 3.0td ranger, the 3.0td tacoma, and the 3.5td mitsubishi truck....but i'm glad jeep finally decided to introduce their 3.0td into the us. it should be something to start with...hopefully chrystler didnt screw it up and it's actually a reliable 'dodge' lol. they never should have gotten rid of the I-6

[why?]

That's the beauty of clean diesel it doesn't have that awful smell like the old technology and current American made ones. Plus you can burn bio fuel and help our farmers stay afloat. Bio diesel exhaust smells like french fries and is a whole lot easier on the environment than gasoline.

um the American farmer needs no help staying afloat, however many millions of foreigners who depend on american grown grain would love to have their food source back to the prices it use to be before it became more profitable to waste it on fuel that is less efficient and more expensive than gasoline.

Now if you convert it to use waste fryolater oil, that is a good thing for everyone.

[jstantherprsn]

Thats a policy issue. The reason a huge chunk of the world is dependent upon us corn is because it is highly subsidized by the gov. We say we are for free trade but we are cheating by subsidizing it. We make it so cheap we put other farmers out of biz and they become dependent upon imports. So when fuel prices go up they starve because we destroyed their local market. Corn is subsidized so much, its in the majority of foods in the grocery store. Watch fuel and you'll get a good sense about biodiesel.

It also doesn't help trying to get the engine passed in every state. When you see that huge outlay of funds. You go f it let them use gas, they'll buy it if they want to move.

[why?]

There is definitely some subsidies for grain and corn as food, and that is wrong, but the subsidies for corn for ethanol is something like 10 times that.

And I also agree on the state to state thing. While I believe states need to take back almost all the power the government has stolen from them, they need to use their brains and cooperate on things that make sense like that, and on using 1 type of gas, not 98.

The US will get diesel cars eventually. As long as they are not absurdly more expensive than gas engines they will sell.

[birdman]

Ethanol corn is grown with petroleum fertilizers which is part of the reason big oil is forcing the US government to subsidize its being grown. Corn ethanol already has a substantial carbon footprint even before it is used. So does non organic bio diesel.

[severous01]

how about algae? seems pretty profitable to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel

[swidd]

So for real, could I sink an imported diesel engine into my American Yaris, and start rolling with diesel?

[bronsin]

What would the diesel option cost?

[cherry tomato]

What would the diesel option cost?

More than it is worth.
I have a diesel truck. I bought it when diesel used to be cheaper than gas.:iono: It still gets a little better mileage than the v10 gas engine that are comparable in HP and torque, but the initial cost, maintenance cost, higher fuel cost, just don't make up for the difference.
10 years ago, diesel trucks used to get 20+ mpg, now the new trucks get around 10-12. New "technology" or EPA requirements seem to be killing their mpg performance.
Also, the manufacturers need to claim most HP and torque (400 and 600 is the claim to fame now) doesn't help efficiency.

If my little 15k Yaris can get 37mpg, I am fine with that. Thats better than most motorcycles I ride get.

[bronsin]

More than it is worth.
I have a diesel truck. I bought it when diesel used to be cheaper than gas.:iono: It still gets a little better mileage than the v10 gas engine that are comparable in HP and torque, but the initial cost, maintenance cost, higher fuel cost, just don't make up for the difference.
10 years ago, diesel trucks used to get 20+ mpg, now the new trucks get around 10-12. New "technology" or EPA requirements seem to be killing their mpg performance.
Also, the manufacturers need to claim most HP and torque (400 and 600 is the claim to fame now) doesn't help efficiency.

If my little 15k Yaris can get 37mpg, I am fine with that. Thats better than most motorcycles I ride get.

Right. A diesel engine is no better an economic proposition that a hybrid. But I wondered just how much they would want for one. I had a 240d with a 4 speed ten years ago. I remember getting diesel when it was 79 cents and regular was 99 cents. Those were the days!

My ST1300 is getting 31 mpg this winter and so is the Yaris. The Yaris will do 36 mpg in summer. At those numbers the Yaris is the most cost effective vehicle out there. People buying hybrids only serves to reinforce my suspicion that IQs have dropped sharply in this country lately.

[why?]

Hybrid purchases have nothing to do with either iq's or gas mileage. They are the new status symbols. Hybrids are the new snob cars.

[cherry tomato]

Hybrid purchases have nothing to do with either iq's or gas mileage. They are the new status symbols. Hybrids are the new snob cars.

Exactly.
Notice how retarded the styling on them is?
They scream I am a hybrid! I am a hybrid! I am saving the earth!

[brg88tx]

2010 prius gets 50 mpg, but the diesel yaris gets over 70 mpg. they will never sell them in america because they would destroy their prius sales.

[bronsin]

2010 prius gets 50 mpg, but the diesel yaris gets over 70 mpg. they will never sell them in america because they would destroy their prius sales.

70 mpg? Can you cite a source for that figure? If true it would be an economical proposition. It would make a hybrid obsolete.

Not that it would stop people from buying them! They are crazy for hybrids.

[brg88tx]

70 mpg? Can you cite a source for that figure? If true it would be an economical proposition. It would make a hybrid obsolete.

Not that it would stop people from buying them! They are crazy for hybrids.

http://ecomodder.com/blog/toyota-yaris-diesel-wins-world-mpg-marathon-7049-mpg/

[bronsin]

Hmm interesting. But I think its open to question whether these results are realistic in terms of everyday driving. Since the engine isnt sold in the US I wonder are there any official type numbers around like EPA estimates?

[Zaphod]

Hmm interesting. But I think its open to question whether these results are realistic in terms of everyday driving. Since the engine isnt sold in the US I wonder are there any official type numbers around like EPA estimates?
I don't really think it matters much. Even if a lead foot only gets 60mpg, it's still better and cheaper than a gas hybrid. Take the overall efficiency of the gas Yairs out of the picture, it would be a Prius killer which is why that diesel Yaris wouldn't be offered here.

Even if they offered a Diesel Electric hybrid Prius (which would be expensive), the lower profit margin diesel Yaris would obsolesce the Prius altogether, and we all know that doesn't make any business sense.

[MUSKOKA800]

We might see a diesel introduced here in Canada before it hits the US market.
Smaller cars are more popular here (due to our much higher fuel prices) and the TDI Volkswagans have been big sellers for decades.

[bronsin]

I don't really think it matters much. Even if a lead foot only gets 60mpg, it's still better and cheaper than a gas hybrid. Take the overall efficiency of the gas Yairs out of the picture, it would be a Prius killer which is why that diesel Yaris wouldn't be offered here.

Even if they offered a Diesel Electric hybrid Prius (which would be expensive), the lower profit margin diesel Yaris would obsolesce the Prius altogether, and we all know that doesn't make any business sense.

It makes all the difference in the world. Neither the gas hybrid nor the diesel engine is more cost efficient at todays prices than the gas version. Not only that, but a smaller lighter car powered by a smaller (say 1 liter) gas engine would be even harder to catch. The better the mpg the sooner they would be if costs keep rising. Am I wrong?

[p123456789]

I wish they would sell that car here but fuel prices aren't high enough for a car like that to sell good here. Americans still feel the need to have an suv that seats 7 even though they only have one kid. Fuel prices would need need to stay above 4 dollars a gallon for a couple years before we start seeing small cars with efficient diesel engines. I wouldn't mind seeing fuel prices that high, people would conserve alot more and we would see more cars like ours on the roads.

[nemelek]

I like Diesels. If they offered it in the Yaris I would consider if the number worked. The extra cost of the engine would have to be off set by the fuel savings. That may never happen. My 2004 Dodge diesel cost $5,000 more than the Hemi. Still haven't hit the break even point.

[bronsin]

I like Diesels. If they offered it in the Yaris I would consider if the number worked. The extra cost of the engine would have to be off set by the fuel savings. That may never happen. My 2004 Dodge diesel cost $5,000 more than the Hemi. Still haven't hit the break even point.


I like 'em too! I LOVED my 240D. in the 80s and 90s it was a going proposition. I would LOVE a monster diesel truck. But I am no fool. It has to pay its way.

[bronsin]

Hybrid purchases have nothing to do with either iq's or gas mileage. They are the new status symbols. Hybrids are the new snob cars.

Do you agree they arent saving money and they think they are saving the planet? Do you think they are saving the planet? Do you think they are saving money? I guess your argument could be people were ALWAYS blanking nuts and have not in fact gotten any worse. Just more of the same.

I accept your position in that case.

[Lewis]

These lofty clean diesel mpg figures are not hype - I know from 1st hand experience.

A couple of years ago my wife and I rented a FIAT Punto diesel (stick shift) and drove all over Europe including up and down a whole lot of mountains in the Alps and in heavy traffic in Italy. We averaged 78 mpg without any special driving techniques on my part. I was shocked when I did the math. And the Punto is really all the car most families need on a rational basis (seats 4 comfortably, nice size trunk hatchback design and yes about the same size/weight as a Yaris. And save your FIAT jokes- car was 100% reliable, with no squeaks rattles etc. which I wish I could say for my Yaris. Also it was a well used (70k km on the clock) rental car- not babied like my Yaris.

Made my Yaris' 35 mpg (and the Prius' 50 mpg for that matter @ almost 2x the price of a Punto) look pretty weak in comparison. And the new euro spec clean diesels run quietly, don't smoke and have enough pep for anyone looking for economical transportation. Did 70-80 mph on the motorways without any trouble albiet with a bit less accelerative ability than most Americans would wish to enjoy (not need IMO).

I'm convinced that if Toyota brought in the new Yaris with the clean diesel it would sell well as a niche vehicle with $4 a gallon fuel predicted for this summer. The problem probably would be that it would lay waste to Toyota's hybrid line which in the USA is Toyota's main sales proposition. In Europe you simply can't sell family cars (and believe it or not the Yaris is a family car in the rest of the world) without a diesel engine- the result of $9/gallon fuel prices which my wife's family in Holland currently pay. Let me tell you that price for fuel forces you pretty quickly to be objective about your REAL transportation needs in a vehicle purchase!

BTW my sister in law in Holland drives a Yaris diesel :-) Not only is the mileage almost twice what I get in my Yaris but to add insult to potential injury it has many more items of safety equipment (like knee airbags, etc.), nicer content (real set of gauges, better interior materials quality etc.), and much more sound insulation than my domestic Yaris. She paid more than I did but I would happily have paid more to get what she was able to buy over there. One look at her Dutch Yaris (and the Japanese market Yaris for that matter) tells you all you need to know about the fact that Toyota considers the USA market a third world nation educationally and financially which is reflected in the Yaris they offer to us.

But my 1.5 gasoline Yaris can easily beat her diesel in the all important American acceleration race from a stoplight! Boy are we lucky!!!!

[bronsin]

She paid more than I did but .

Yeah thats the $64 question: what do they get for these things? That 78 mpg figure. Was that obtained by dividing miles traveled by gallons burned? Or by the lie-o-meter digital mpg readout on the dash? And whats the displacement of that engine? Inquiring minds want to know.

Frankly Im having a hard time with that 78 mpg figure. I would need hard evidence to back that up. But if its true it might be an economically viable situation.

[Lewis]

I keep meticulous records and computed it on a calculator- I expected 50-55mpg or so and was amazed myself. I don't know how else to prove it to you. It actually came out to 77.8 mpg after converting from liters to gallons and km to miles. The Punto diesel I rented was not a TURBO diesel like the VWs we get here- and much more geared for motorway economy- the tach was in the 2,000-2,500 rpm range with the accelerator floored on the motorway. It was 2 years ago but if my memory is correct it was a 1.3 or 1.4L diesel but that is a guess. I remember thinking it had less displacement than my 1.5 Yaris.

Regarding the price of the Yaris in Holland it's hard to say what it would sell for here because they tax new car purchases like crazy in Holland. Diesels I have read average about 1,500 dollars more than the equivilant gasoline engines to build for the manufacturer. A turbo probably adds another $700. I do think a naturally aspirated diesel would be a tough sell in the USA as it simply would not meet American expectations for acceptable acceleration although in my personal opinion I could happily drive the Punto here and feel safe.

Keeping momentum up is simply a different driving skill/enjoyment which Europeans learn by necesscity with their fuel prices- ask a Lotus driver.

:-)

[bronsin]

I would have NO problem whatsoever with a normally aspirated diesel. I had a 240D for years and that was a fourspeed. Very low acceleration but you adapt. Averaged 28 mpg and that was city driving 75% of the time. 20 gallon tank too which gave 600+ miles on the highway. Sweet! Fuel was 79 a gallon too.

[Lewis]

Realistically the Japanese may have a point. Most Americans would never accept the Yaris as a family car and therefore would be unwilling to pay a family car price for what a Euro spec Yaris would cost. So we get the cheap decontented one. All the manufacturers seem to have concluded that about the USA market- look at the new "improved" $15,000 Jetta.

It may well take the same $9/gallon gas (which we all hope is well into the future) to get people over here to pay $20,000 for a nicely equipped diesel Yaris. Even Mini which seems to be able to command those kind of prices for a small car hasn't brought over their diesel model.

I think we can all thank Oldsmobile for ruining the reputation of diesel car engines here in the USA. Most Americans probably think diesel engines are inferior so why pay more for something that they think is worse?

Education is expensive but ignorance is even more costly!

[2009BBPliftback]

I think if a major automotive player like Toyota jumped on the diesel bandwagon it may be good for the overall diesel sales in the USA. But it's obvious Toyota has it's heart set on hybrid technologies.. Until that becomes cheaper I will continue to drive my thrifty yaris.

[Lewis]

Toyota will sell what people will buy- simple as that. I see very few Prius hybrids in Europe and many many Toyota diesel cars. I think the key factor is that Toyota is in the business of making money not any particular type of car.

[2009BBPliftback]

Now I know the associated costs would be ridiculous but does anyone know if it would even be possible to get a left hand drive d4d from say Germany into the USA?

[bronsin]

And legally drive it here? Id say imposseris. Maybe there are diesel ECHOS/Yaris's in Canada?

[Lewis]

I think all it would actually take is one major Japanese manufacturer to bring in a clean diesel hatchback and the others would follow suit when they see it sell because they all have the engines "on the shelf" so they'd only have to EPA certify them to bring them here. Acura was very close to doing that with the TSX if you believe the automotive press.

Volkswagen just doesn't have a good enough reputation for quality to break into the mainstream USA market with their diesels. If VW could build a Golf diesel to run as reliably as my Yaris with a competitive purchase price (which they presently don't have courtesy of their greedy dealerships that jack up the prices on their already overpriced diesel line) that's what I'd be in right now.

I just don't have the patience to be visiting their arrogant corrupt dealers on a regular basis to rebuy their crappy parts as they fail like all my friends with VWs do- not to mention what that does to the economics of fuel savings with the diesel engine.

I actually had a Rabbit diesel in the 1970s so I know from experience what the joy of the VW ownership experience entails.

[bronsin]

I actually had a Rabbit diesel in the 1970s so I know from experience what the joy of the VW ownership experience entails.

I was in the market for one of those in 1980. They had an unsold one for $8500. Which is an unconscionable ammount of money for the time. I offered $7500 and they wouldnt go for it. Bought a Subaru Hatchabck instead for $4600 tax and all. Those were the days.

NEVER in a million years would the VW have been CE against the Suby.

So what happened with the VW Diesel that was so awfull?

[Lewis]

I was in the market for one of those in 1980. They had an unsold one for $8500. Which is an unconscionable ammount of money for the time. I offered $7500 and they wouldnt go for it. Bought a Subaru Hatchabck instead for $4600 tax and all. Those were the days.

NEVER in a million years would the VW have been CE against the Suby.

So what happened with the VW Diesel that was so awfull?

----------Back then BOTH the Oldsmobile and VW diesels were actually hastily converted gasoline motors lashed up to address the first big fuel crisis of the 1970's and the gas lines that formed due to the Arab oil boycott. These junkers probably are why Americans have such negative views of diesel automotive power. In both cases head gaskets couldn't contain the higher compression of the diesel combustion and they popped headgaskets over and over until the heads eventually warped, causing radiator fluid to leak into the engine oil which lead to complete engine failure.

My Rabbit diesel actually blew a head gasket about once a month!

Also the quality of the diesel fuel was not pure as the tractor-trailer motors which were the market for diesel then could pretty much tolerate impurities due to their size and strength that would disable automotive diesels . All and all a perfect storm of negativity for automotive diesel power trains existed in the US back then. The only plus I guess was that diesel cost less than gas in those days in the US.

In Europe the history of diesel automotive was written by Mercedes and Peugoet which had rock solid quality in their simple, durable sedans. Their diesels in the 40's-70's were easily good for 500K miles so Europeans are used to thinking of diesels as higher quality engines than gasoline engines in cars I think.

I bought one of these VWs so as not to have wait on the then present gasoline lines as there was plenty of diesel fuel around to power the trucks.

So basically the US market automotive diesels back then were time bombs and VW also had major quality problems with electrical systems and even rust issues as well with their then new front drive Rabbits. The icing on the cake were arrogant and crooked dealers who had really no experience having to fix cars and satisfy customers since the previous Beetles ran forever with very little maintenance and repairs.

[attickt]

even if it did come to the U.S and is oober fuel eficiant U.S gas prices are on a sky rocket and its winter here, diesel is close to $4 a gallon where i live and gas is on average $3.10-$3.24 a gallon wait till summer hits gas will be 4.15 a gallon and diesel will be close to $5

[Zaphod]

Realistically the Japanese may have a point. Most Americans would never accept the Yaris as a family car and therefore would be unwilling to pay a family car price for what a Euro spec Yaris would cost. So we get the cheap decontented one. All the manufacturers seem to have concluded that about the USA market- look at the new "improved" $15,000 Jetta.

It may well take the same $9/gallon gas (which we all hope is well into the future) to get people over here to pay $20,000 for a nicely equipped diesel Yaris. Even Mini which seems to be able to command those kind of prices for a small car hasn't brought over their diesel model.

I think we can all thank Oldsmobile for ruining the reputation of diesel car engines here in the USA. Most Americans probably think diesel engines are inferior so why pay more for something that they think is worse?

Education is expensive but ignorance is even more costly!
I don't think many Americans consider a Yaris to be a family car. I seriously doubt that most would consider the car sporty. It is what it is, inexpensive transportation.

If Toyota offered a diesel option that got 70mpg for an extra 2k, I would have been all over it, regardless of the power it offered compared to it's gas competitor. But you'll never see that option in a Toyota parking lot when right next to that pretty line of Yarii, you'll see a shiny Prius alternative right across from it. Make no mistake ... they did attempt to upsell me to the then 23k Prius.

It just makes no sense for them to even build a Prius if they offer a 70mpg diesel option, even if they sold it at 5k over the gas option. How could they offer a car that cost less and got 20mpg more than a car that requires batteries that eventually have to be replaced?

They can't and they won't, so long as there is a decent profit margin in the Prius.

[Lewis]

I don't think many Americans consider a Yaris to be a family car. I seriously doubt that most would consider the car sporty. It is what it is, inexpensive transportation.

If Toyota offered a diesel option that got 70mpg for an extra 2k, I would have been all over it, regardless of the power it offered compared to it's gas competitor. But you'll never see that option in a Toyota parking lot when right next to that pretty line of Yarii, you'll see a shiny Prius alternative right across from it. Make no mistake ... they did attempt to upsell me to the then 23k Prius.

It just makes no sense for them to even build a Prius if they offer a 70mpg diesel option, even if they sold it at 5k over the gas option. How could they offer a car that cost less and got 20mpg more than a car that requires batteries that eventually have to be replaced?

They can't and they won't, so long as there is a decent profit margin in the Prius.

I agree 100% and wish it was different. As I mentioned the only thing that would have Toyota bringing in a diesel on the Yaris is if Mazda brings their diesel in on the MZ2 or Nissan brings it in on their Versa and THEY take sales away from the Prius.

[attickt]

I don't think many Americans consider a Yaris to be a family car. I seriously doubt that most would consider the car sporty. It is what it is, inexpensive transportation.

If Toyota offered a diesel option that got 70mpg for an extra 2k, I would have been all over it, regardless of the power it offered compared to it's gas competitor. But you'll never see that option in a Toyota parking lot when right next to that pretty line of Yarii, you'll see a shiny Prius alternative right across from it. Make no mistake ... they did attempt to upsell me to the then 23k Prius.

It just makes no sense for them to even build a Prius if they offer a 70mpg diesel option, even if they sold it at 5k over the gas option. How could they offer a car that cost less and got 20mpg more than a car that requires batteries that eventually have to be replaced?

They can't and they won't, so long as there is a decent profit margin in the Prius.



I agree totaly, as well do i agree with an earlier comment most americans are misinformed of diesels, most people i talk to think that diesel engines are dirtie, burn durtier are less reliable, more expensive to maintain or modify etc.

along side with the prius comment, americans (i am american) are dumb enough to buy bottled water (water is free!) limited to very few sercumstances this is a stupid concept, so that should speak for its self. it sounds better, its easier, just like the prius... why not fool americans into thinking they are getting a better car then they realy are and get an extra 5k outa them every few years for battries aposed to offering a cleaner more efficiant combustion engine... most americans are to ignorant to see a good thing coming and to blind to see a bad thing in front of them. unfortunetly the d4 may never see our shores and thats a shame it would bring a whole new level to the yaris platform and tuners in genral.

contraer to my point above in the long run the prius hybrid platform may be just as cost effective as a diesel engine in the U.S judging by gas prices in the long run i think they would break even however the diesel = :burnrubber: compared to the hybrid lol

[bronsin]

Gee I used to think the VW diesel was the car of my dreams. I was a Beetle man for many years and would have been terribly disappointed. But maybe your car had some unique problem that made the HGs blow?

My 240D was the nuts. I olny sold it because I couldnt work on it anymore and now I cant drive a standard.

[Lewis]

The VW diesel can still be the car of your dreams Bronsin. The first generation was a nightmare but thanks to test drivers like myself the VW turbo diesel is now a very good motor indeed IMO. I remember those days well and those diesels (VW and Oldsmobile) were just not ready for prime time. If my car had been an exception diesel cars would probably be selling well in the US like they do in the rest of the world.

I still would never go near another VW product (and I drove nothing but VWs for the first 40 years of my life) due to their horrible quality and terrible dealers but that is not a diesel specific opinion- it is a opinion about VWs and this a a Toyota discussion group so no more from me on that.

Suffice it to say if Toyota brought over their diesel Yaris to the US I'd be at my dealer in a heartbeat to buy one!

[bronsin]

Yeah but arent those VW diesels like $30K?

I mean, I need cheap reliable transportation so I can buy motorcycles!

I would settle for a $15K iQ with the one liter gas engine!

[Zaphod]

Yeah but arent those VW diesels like $30K?

I mean, I need cheap reliable transportation so I can buy motorcycles!

I would settle for a $15K iQ with the one liter gas engine!

I don't know, they're cheapest car right now is the Golf, right? And that starts at 18k for a 2 door gasser, 4k higher than the Yaris gasser.

The only TDI golf they have is the 4 door, which starts at 23.5k. Their gas 4 door starts at 19.5K. So it looks like they call the 4 door a 1.5k upgrade, which would put their additional cost for the diesel at 4k.

VW's are just expensive to begin with and they're just not after the mainstream market, which is why they'll never be the ones to make diesels popular in the US.

But you're right, the motorcycle really is the way to go if you can swing it ... it sure is my "daily driver" during the summer and throughout most of the spring and fall. My sportster gets 50mpg consistently. I used to get in the 58-60 range before I put performance parts on it and ran it as such. That's not bad for roughly 4k altogether for the top end gasket kit, engine guard, highway pegs, mini-apes, OEM forward controls, brake light extensions, saddlebag bars, oversized saddle bags, two-up seats and a sissy bar. All I really need now is a larger gas tank and I'll call it a tourster ;)

[bronsin]

And the thing is, its one thing to get those numbers off the internet. Its quite another to go to an actual dealer and see the prices in the showroom. "But...that car is $23.5k on Edmunds. You dont have anything less than $26k...."