1nzfe equal length manifold.

[Blown_xa]

Hey guys, I wanted to let you in on a new piece we developed. Right now we only list for xb and xa until I can confirm clearance on a yaris.

http://www.ptuning.com/html/Item-Desc.cfm?PartNo=PTP%2DTBM%2D11000&MakeCode=scion&ModelCode=xB&ModelYear=2004%2D2007%20%28Turbo%29&ModelDesc=xB

This is a hayabusa style equal length turbo manifold, based off the one i use on my xa. This production version features cnc machined flanges designed for perfect head sealing, it is also decked after welding. This manifold on my car with a t3 60 trim turbo makes for FULL boost 22psi by 3600rpm, and zero boost dropoff all the way to 7300rpm.
We market turbo kits for the s2000, and evo crowd but we have 1nz custmers who also appreciate top of the line components.

[cali yaris]

That's pretty cool, and probably better than a log - but it's clearly not equal length?

http://www.ptuning.com/graphics/ptuning/scion-xA-xB-Toyota-1nz-fe-turbo-manifold.jpg

[Parmas]

Hey guys, I wanted to let you in on a new piece we developed. Right now we only list for xb and xa until I can confirm clearance on a yaris.

http://www.ptuning.com/html/Item-Desc.cfm?PartNo=PTP%2DTBM%2D11000&MakeCode=scion&ModelCode=xB&ModelYear=2004%2D2007%20%28Turbo%29&ModelDesc=xB

This is a hayabusa style equal length turbo manifold, based off the one i use on my xa. This production version features cnc machined flanges designed for perfect head sealing, it is also decked after welding. This manifold on my car with a t3 60 trim turbo makes for FULL boost 22psi by 3600rpm, and zero boost dropoff all the way to 7300rpm.
We market turbo kits for the s2000, and evo crowd but we have 1nz custmers who also appreciate top of the line components.

Sorry mate but I agree with Garm. This manifold is not an equal length

I done a custom equal one. Here is a pic for your reference

[Blown_xa]

I see where you guys are talking about, but what you have to realize, anything withinn 2 " is considered equal length. That is industry standard. The inside runners are 3/4" shorter than the outside ones, that is considered equal length.

That is cool that you made a manifold parmas, I see where you were going with that design. However, you don't want to compromise over-all flow just to try to get perfect length runners because that defeats the purpose. Only one bend per runner is used in the hayabusa design, along with a side-by side collector. Having runners enter the collector (especially a shallow collector) at different angles such as yours also defeats the purpose of achieving equal length design.

Factory exhaust manifold runners have a difference of 5", just food for thought.

[turboecho2005]

I see where you guys are talking about, but what you have to realize, anything withinn 2 " is considered equal length. That is industry standard. The inside runners are 3/4" shorter than the outside ones, that is considered equal length.

That is cool that you made a manifold parmas, I see where you were going with that design. However, you don't want to compromise over-all flow just to try to get perfect length runners because that defeats the purpose. Only one bend per runner is used in the hayabusa design, along with a side-by side collector. Having runners enter the collector (especially a shallow collector) at different angles such as yours also defeats the purpose of achieving equal length design.

Factory exhaust manifold runners have a difference of 5", just food for thought.

Ok.... You have been completely mislead about manifold design.

A turbo manifold that is equal length is exactly that. EQUAL LENGTH. 2 inches difference does not make it equal length.

Secondly the one bend per runner is a complete joke. If that was the case tell me why every high performance manifold has more then one bend. The Longer the runners the better spool up you will get. Period.

I have attached a few photos of manifolds. The one with the longest runners is on a 3L motor making over 1000hp.

A manifold length must be different for every motor. You have to take into consideration the pulse length of the motor. but thats not the deciding factor in the manifold design. The total length of the runners help to keep the exhaust gases pressurized. The longer the runners the more pressure you get therefore the better spool up.

Have they taken into consideration the firing order of the motor? have they divided the exhaust flow internally were the runners meet? external wastegate can be angled better. It should be angled to recieve the primary exhaust flow otherwise you will run into problems with boost creep.

There is a difference between making a functional manifold and a performance manifold. The one you posted is clearly functional and not performance.

Its not a bad design but its clearly not the best possible design.

[jouna]

i'll have to go with parmas and turbo echo on this onr ive had experience with both of the manifold designs in my civic and i managed to get 9whp more and got full boost quicker with the "squid" design rather than the straight design.

[Blown_xa]

echo2005, i value anyones input. you are right about the wastegate positioning, however the ac lines are in the way to angle wastegate in the ideal position. my manifold has the wastegate in the front, but for production purposes we dont want to tell a customer they have to remove the wastegate to check the plugs.
On another note , the other things you discussed are incorrect. Backpressure should be created by the exhaust gases against the turbine wheel, any loss of exhaust velocity beforehand results in a efficiency loss and slower spool. You said choking exhaust flow before turbine will make better spool (doesnt make sense?). Speculation is good conversation, but dyno results are what tells the tale. Take the time to check out our evo, s2000, and tc manifold design... per pound of boost, nothing we have had on our dyno compares.
Another, thing that is fact (not speculation) is that more than 70% of the drive on the turbo is thermal, long runners only reduce thermal efficiency .

[Blown_xa]

I was just looking at your photos you posted, thank you for sharing them. They resemble a sidewinder design more so than equal length , especially that 6 cylinder one. They probably did claim good numbers, a sidwinder design is common for cars with limited space running a large turbo. What are the runner lengths? please measure them for me.



I forgot to answer your question on firing order, our car is like 95% of 4 cylinders you will encounter 1342. In that, case a side by side merge would be a good choice (further seperating pulse) compared to a standard merge. But in reality that only matters with a twin scroll design.

To conclude, equal length turbo manifold is a design concept.. that is all . I wll send anyone a cookie who finds an equal length turbo manifold, actually measure the runners and find all 4 to be equal length . I think my cookie is safe .

[Tamago]

lmfao, you got schooled buddy.

that's a steep price for a manifold. any one of us could go to a local fab shop and get a true equal length manifold custom built for that price..

[xbgod]

Being in the manufacturing business for 11 years I see where BlownXa with PTunning have come up with this design. It's not exactly equal length but it's close a suites alot of needs for guys that have no access to a good machine shop. "And not just any machine shop can make a turbo manifold".

This one was designed for the guy who wants performance with ease of use and could be sold to the masses. It's a clean well built piece with the average guy in mind when their working on their car.

Don't get so wraped up in this equal length shit. Most of you are in a daily driver and not racing so I don't think 6 more hp is going to help you anyways.

Besides it's not just the design of the exhaust manifold thats going to get you power.

XBG

[marcus]

my pop corn is out again...lol

[ilikerice]

^*i got a large, ill share*^

[cali yaris]

Don't get so wraped up in this equal length shit.

I will, because I really want to know if that's true. I'm willing to change my mind about it if I get some validation.

I sent his description of what he says the industry considers "equal length" to the best tuners I know, and to some turbo kit manufacturers. I am truly curious to know if it's the case that close to equal length = equal length. I've never heard of that, nor do I agree with it.

If I'm wrong based on the replies I get, I'll eat it and say so; I just want to know.

For clarity, this is the statement I am inquiring about:

anything withinn 2 " is considered equal length. That is industry standard. The inside runners are 3/4" shorter than the outside ones, that is considered equal length.

[turboecho2005]

Why do you think that race cars that have had millions of dollars of engineering behind them build manifolds with long runners? Nearly every drag car you see has huge long runners.

Your manifold design isn't a bad one. Its functional and thats what matters.

If i were made of money i would buy your manifold.. put it on my car.. dyno it.. then put on a manifold with longer runners and dyno it. Thats the only realy world test we can do. going back and forth on an internet forum is useless.

[cdydjded]

Why do you think that race cars that have had millions of dollars of engineering behind them build manifolds with long runners? Nearly every drag car you see has huge long runners.

Your right most race cars have long runners. And the reasons are many, such as:
1) Their max RPM is not 6300
2) They are not a 1.5 liter
3) They are not using T25 turbos
4) Their power range starts @ +/- 5000 RPM
5) Their inteded for max accelaration
6) They are not daily drivers

FYI, Garm made 350HP on a log style manifold.....

[turboecho2005]

Your right most race cars have long runners. And the reasons are many, such as:
1) Their max RPM is not 6300
2) They are not a 1.5 liter
3) They are not using T25 turbos
4) Their power range starts @ +/- 5000 RPM
5) Their inteded for max accelaration
6) They are not daily drivers

FYI, Garm made 350HP on a log style manifold.....

A local guy here has a D16 turbocharged with an equal length squid style manifold. Its a 1.6L. It has a rev max of 6800. Its his daily driver and he's putting down over 500hp.

As i said before there is nothing wrong with a log style or non equal length its just not the best possible design. I am just saying that you could yield more hp with properly made equal length manifold.

[Blown_xa]

hey everyone is entitled to there own opinion, its all good. I don't know if you knew or not turboecho, but we have a race car. We did a lot of r&d with it, that is where are production parts derived from for the tc.

posting photos of different manifolds doesnt justify much. r &d does. i have a book on turbocharging in front of me , in another post ill copy what it says for u.
I have no beef with your opinion, It's just that many yaris owners on here are new to turbocharging and soak up info quickly. i think it is only fair they are presented real proven fact and data, rather than mashing opinions. Just because a certain car obtained 1000hp, it doesnt mean that is an ideal design.
the whole el debate, its totally fine if you dont want to call our manifolds el. the gentleman who produces our manifolds had that particular opinion (there is no el manifold) , and others may have another.

[Blown_xa]

"As mentioned in the chapter about turbocharger design, the turbine housing increases exhaust velocity to around 2000 ft per sec. if the exhaust gas comes out of the exhaust port at 300 fps,then we wont gain very much if it is slowed to 100fps just so we can speed it up to 2000 fps. there is nothing wrong with smooth flowing exhaust headers with swerving bends, but in the case of tubocharged engines their use is more estetic than power increasing." - Hugh Maclnnes mechanical engineer,society of automotive engineers.

[xbgod]

And right you are.

But it's hard to argue the point of a dedicated drag car vs. a daily driver. I too have brought this same question up to two different world renouned tuners. Rolo from CFT who is recognized by Haltech, Microtech,AEM and Greddy as a top tuner.And John from LHT Motorsports whih is a top tuner for Hondata.

It's more than just equal lengths of the manifold but also waste gate placement on the exhaust manifold and other various factors which will encourage hp gains or losses.

I'm not saying it's not possible to make more hp with equal lenghts but Have been told with motors of this caliber that not much of a signifigance is noticed to make it worth your while to purse such a cost for so little.

So I guess if 4-6 more hp which is about the typical gain if all is correctly placed is worth the cost to you than it's worth the time.

XBG

[turboecho2005]

I agree. and unless we can dyno prove both cases its still an open ended thread. good for discussion and popcorn :)

[cali yaris]

I said that the design shown was better than a log manifold. I also disputed that it's an equal length manifold. I asked around. I got answers. It's a short ram manifold design. "Equal length" doesn't mean "more or less equal length".

I'm done with the definition of what it is -- I still think it's better than what I'm using (log) and should be considered a valid choice by anyone doing a turbo build.

[Carlos@ptuning.com]

Here is some pictures of our customers Xb. Enjoy!

[Carlos@ptuning.com]

sorry for the enormous pics.

[Parmas]

My god is that a T4 turbo!

I don't like the turbo exhaust chamber hitting the firewall. I smell burnt plastic :)

[Blown_xa]

My god is that a T4 turbo!

I don't like the turbo exhaust chamber hitting the firewall. I smell burnt plastic :)

LOL Paramas It's a GT-28RS. The turbo housing is far from the firewall, its close to the rain gutter. I havent had an issue yet with mine, I don't run a turbo blanket either.

[cali yaris]

yeah that looks like a lot of fun! :clap:

we don't have that kind of clearance above like that for turbo placement, but I've got a GT28 stuffed back there. wonder if I could fit a GT30, hmmmm.... :biggrin:

[xbgod]

Cali just add a little Nitrous............:biggrin:

Works for me........

Please tell me someone plans on cleaning the look of that XB's engine bay up.

XBG

[Blown_xa]

Cali just add a little Nitrous............:biggrin:

Works for me........

Please tell me someone plans on cleaning the look of that XB's engine bay up.

XBG

yea man the car isnt done yet, the owner works over seas and is back for the holidays. My goal right now is to get it in driving order so he can have fun with it before he goes back. I finished his 3" dual exit exhaust today, only thing left is fuel system and finish wiring haltec p&p harness.

Once it is tuned and everything is in order, we will powdercoat pipes, compressor housing, and valvecover in either red or wrinkle black.

This xb will be tuned for 22psi, I expect it to make more power than my xa.

[Blown_xa]

Hey, quick update... we tuned the xb on the emanage initially for emissions. It made 284whp at 24psi, very good numbers. It took a bit more boost to match my xA's numbers, but that was do to the 2.5" downpipe . We decided on the 2.5" downpipe in case we produce the kit for clearance purposes. The power curve was exact to my xA, which was interesting considering im running a t3 60trim vs the xB's gt28rs.

On another note... I recently installed a perrin equal length turbo header on a STI. I took a minute to measure the runners, 9" variance between the shortest and longest runners. So I guess Garm will soon be writing them an email....heh

[cali yaris]

^ nope, don't need to, settled that one thank god. nice numbers, bet that is fun to drive!