2012 Chevrolet Sonic (Aveo replacement)

[Kal-El]

Pretty impressive. The new Yaris has it's work cut out for it. :thumbsup:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/01/08-sonic.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/01/09-sonic.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/01/10-sonic.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/01/23-sonic.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/01/01-sonic.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/01/05-sonic.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/01/17-sonic.jpg


General Motors has officially yanked back the sheets on the newest sub-compact from Chevrolet, the 2012 Sonic. Just don't call it the Aveo. The five-door hatch and four-door sedan are set to be officially unveiled later today at the 2011 Detroit Auto Show, but the Bow Tie brand has been kind enough to share the skinny on this vehicle that's supposed to tango with the likes of the new Hyundai Elantra and the Ford Fiesta. The Sonic will be available with a standard 1.8-liter four-cylinder engine, though buyers can opt up for a turbocharged 1.4-liter producing 138 horsepower, which GM underscores is 18 ponies more than the Fiesta. Shifting duties are handled by either a five-speed manual transmission or a six-speed automatic gearbox.

In fact, it's clear that The General had its sights locked on the Fiesta from the get go. The Sonic hatchback packs more back seat room than its Blue Oval competitor and, with the rear bench folded flat, delivers more cargo room, as well.

GM also put plenty of effort into the suspension by tasking the geometry gurus responsible for the Corvette's mighty grip. Up front, the Sonic benefits from a MacPherson strut design, while a torsion beam handles suspension duties out back.

There's also plenty design-wise to differentiate the Sonic from its homely predecessor, including a more aggressive front fascia with massive headlight arrays. Judging from the photos, the biggest changes are indoors, where a stylish cockpit replaces the bland, bargain plastics of the Aveo.

[DebbyM46227]

I like the 2 door version, it kind of looks like a Soul.

[Kal-El]

I like the 2 door version, it kind of looks like a Soul.

The hatch is actually a 5 door. The rear handles are hidden. Looks good! :smile:

[frownonfun]

is that two door missing handles in the back? looks like it should be a four door.


EDIT:

The hatch is actually a 5 door. The rear handles are hidden. Looks good! :smile:

oh. i see.

[ilikerice]

yea.. i like where the rear door handles are placed behind the back windows. they should have done the same with the front doors also i think like the NSX and new GT-R to have that nice clean smooth look onthe sides

[detroiter]

Still has the flat, "fall on your face" look to the interior. Like it looks sharp but still bland in typical GM fashion, the hatchback version does anyways.

Atleast they didn't pull a Ford/Chrysler and use the same "tic-tac" styled radio that they've been using for the passed 25 years.

I'm interested to see what the price will be on the cars when they come out


It's kind of sad to see Toyota still sitting on their thumbs doing nothing with the Yaris in terms of performance
or real updates. I don't know if Toyota is still stuck on the whole "vanilla, A to B transportation" game or not, but
things are changing around them, if they don't change soon they will be left behind. Performance for the masses
is starting to make a comeback and unless Toyota changes it's old fogey typical buyer concept, I fear for the worse.

[thebarber]

factory f/i ftw

prefer the look of the sedan to the hatch

as 33OH pointed out on MI, its odd that the sedan is a 5 bolt and the hatch is a 4 bolt

[Shinare]

...
as 33OH pointed out on MI, its odd that the sedan is a 5 bolt and the hatch is a 4 bolt


I guess us Americans like doing things the hard/expensive way... heh

Either that or those are just representations of what its going to look like and not actual cars?

PS> Sonic Turbo is only 138HP? and its a 1.4l step down from the standard 1.8l offered? WTF?

[DebbyM46227]

It's kind of sad to see Toyota still sitting on their thumbs doing nothing with the Yaris in terms of performance
or real updates. I don't know if Toyota is still stuck on the whole "vanilla, A to B transportation" game or not, but
things are changing around them, if they don't change soon they will be left behind. Performance for the masses
is starting to make a comeback and unless Toyota changes it's old fogey typical buyer concept, I fear for the worse.

I don't EVER see Yaris commercials on TV either....even when they show all the other models in one ad, the Yaris is missing.

[Kal-El]

BTW, this will be the ONLY small car built in America. Props to GM for doing this. It's nearly impossible to make a small car profitable when built in America.

[Shinare]

The 2012 Chevrolet Sonic will be powered by the same powertrains Chevy Cruze is using with great success, including the Ecotec 1.4L turbo and the Ecotec 1.8L. The Ecotec 1.4L turbo’s power ratings are estimated at 138 horsepower (103 kW) and 148 lb.-ft. of torque (200 Nm) between 1,850 rpm and 4,900 rpm. The 1.8 L engine is estimated at 135 horsepower (101 kW), along with 123 lb.-ft. of torque (167 Nm) at 3,800 rpm.

Really?... going turbo nets you a gain of 3 whole horses?

*facepalm* sometimes I can see why the world thinks us Americans are idiots...

[Kal-El]

I guess us Americans like doing things the hard/expensive way... heh

Either that or those are just representations of what its going to look like and not actual cars?

PS> Sonic Turbo is only 138HP? and its a 1.4l step down from the standard 1.8l offered? WTF?

138hp will be the most you can get in the sub-compact class, by far. That is a lot of power in a Yaris sized car. The Yaris is pretty swift with a meager 106hp. How can this be criticized?

[thebarber]

Really?... going turbo nets you a gain of 3 whole horses?

*facepalm* sometimes I can see why the world thinks us Americans are idiots...

turbo also gets you another 25lb-ft of tq...which is available at 1850rpm vs 123tq at 3800 for the n/a engine...

the 1.4L has a small, quick spooling turbo to get more tq.

reviews ive read say the 1.4L feels like a larger engine, but w/ the economy of a 1.4L +/-

hell, id take the factory turbo option, thanks

[brg88tx]

i really like the looks of this little car. the big round headlights make it look a tad more manly for a tiny car. they gotta have good mpg to compete with the new hyundais.

[Dave]

BTW, this will be the ONLY small car built in America. Props to GM for doing this. It's nearly impossible to make a small car profitable when built in America.

Agreed. I'm impressed and I hope it's a winner for GM.

[thebarber]

btw, gmcanada.com looks like the hatch has a 5 bolt wheel pattern too...

[Yar Is Word]

Thank you, Kal-El, for regularly posting new changes in the automotive industry.

[Kal-El]

Thank you, Kal-El, for regularly posting new changes in the automotive industry.

:thumbsup:

[STC]

A Chevrolet small car design I actually like! Good job Chevy...

Cheers! :smile:

[Midnight Drifter]

The shift pattern doesn't match the press release.

What gives?

[KCALB SIRAY]

I'd rock the hatch. Well done.

[Vioz]

looks like a little toy, not a serious look just "HI IM SONIC!"

[1stToyota]

Australia and Asia make pretty neat cars for GM.

[Kal-El]

Australia and Asia make pretty neat cars for GM.

The Sonic is purely American. In fact it will be the only small car built in the USA. Even the Fiesta is built in Mexico.

[johnny_vitz]

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/01/10/2012-chevrolet-sonic-detroit-2011/
Interesting car, the "z spec" concept is fugly though haha I like the look of the sedan.
It does share the same engines with the cruze which is mostly euro design, Not that thats a bad thing.

[BluYrs]

The images of the hatchback from the Detroit show remind me of the unveiling of the Yaris years ago (see pic of the Jarno Trulli special edition prototype below). Same bright red colour, big wheels, high gloss, probably lowered a bit... Now compare that to the average Yaris you see on the streets and you see why I'm not that confident about those great looks of the Sonic reaching every streetcorner...

http://i51.tinypic.com/28lqu4o.jpg

[yaris2010RS]

it also doesnt have the RC Wire sticking out if the roof and i really like those lights on the bottom of the bumper beside where the fogs normally go

[BluYrs]

Exactly. It's the little things you don't really notice unless you own the same model.

[1stToyota]

The Sonic is purely American. In fact it will be the only small car built in the USA. Even the Fiesta is built in Mexico.

My bad. GM has been re-badging Suzukis, Daihatsus, Toyotas, Opels, Isuzus and Holdens for so long I just assumed wrongly that it was a re-badged Asian make. :redface:

To me, interior sort of looks like it took its cues from Hyundai or Honda, which is good.

[Kal-El]

My bad. GM has been re-badging Suzukis, Daihatsus, Toyotas, Opels, Isuzus and Holdens for so long I just assumed wrongly that it was a re-badged Asian make. :redface:


A fair assumption. The outgoing Aveo is Korean built by GM's South Korean subsidiary GM Daewoo.

The current Aveo has sold as the following models worldwide...

Chevrolet Kalos
Chevrolet Lova
Daewoo Gentra
Daewoo Kalos
Holden Barina
Pontiac G3
Pontiac Wave
Suzuki Swift

[thebarber]

kalos ftw mother trucker!

[1stToyota]

A fair assumption. The outgoing Aveo is Korean built by GM's South Korean subsidiary GM Daewoo.

The current Aveo has sold as the following models worldwide...

Chevrolet Kalos
Chevrolet Lova
Daewoo Gentra
Daewoo Kalos
Holden Barina
Pontiac G3
Pontiac Wave
Suzuki Swift

Looks like I got my D's wrong, I meant Daewoo, not Daihatsu :bonk:

[p123456789]

Finally a small car from gm I would actually own. I seems for the past 10 years they have been stuck building very bland rental cars. I really can't stand gm though they rebadge cars to death the gmc arcadia is rebadged like 5 times. Most car companies just platform share but gm just swaps out the badges and makes the wheels look different they are a very lazy car company.

[brg88tx]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yea83vMRpAM

[wooverstone8]

I wonder what the interior of the base model will look like?

[Thirty-Nine]

Sonic: In the flesh from the Portland International Auto Show:

http://www.subcompactculture.com/2011/02/chevrolet-sonic-in-flesh.html

[Kal-El]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/13/business/with-chevrolet-sonic-gm-and-uaw-reinvent-automaking.html?_r=1

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/07/13/business/13sonic-span/13sonic-span-articleLarge.jpg

ORION TOWNSHIP, Mich. — The only subcompact car being built on American soil will soon roll out of an assembly plant here in suburban Detroit that is as unusual as the car itself.

The production line has been squeezed into half the space of a traditional plant. Welding robots are concentrated in efficient clusters, instead of being spaced along the line, while many of the workers earn half the typical union wage. Even the first coat of rust-proofing has been reformulated so that it is one-hundredth as thick as — and thereby cheaper than — the coating on other cars.

One of the oldest axioms in the auto industry is that no company can build a subcompact car in the United States and make money because they are priced too low. The Ford Fiesta is built in Mexico. The Honda Fit is made in several places, including China and Brazil. But with Americans — and Detroit — rediscovering small cars because of high gasoline prices, General Motors is intent on shattering that notion with its new Chevrolet Sonic. The car, with a base price of around $14,000, will give G.M. a new entry in the lowest tier of the market when it goes on sale this fall. The Sonic is also expected to be a breakthrough in establishing a new level of cooperation between Detroit and the United Automobile Workers.

The radically revamped factory here operates with fewer and cheaper workers, many of whom are paid $14 an hour rather than the full U.A.W. wage of $28 an hour.

The plant itself is smaller and reconfigured to save money, with company executives modeling some of the changes after G.M.’s most efficient factories in Germany and Korea. The production line’s footprint alone was reduced from a million square feet to 500,000 — the equivalent of losing the space of more than two Wal-Mart Super Stores. The energy bill was cut by powering some operations with methane gas from neighboring landfills.

The Sonic will be G.M.’s littlest, and most fuel-efficient, conventionally powered vehicle. It was conceived in 2008 before the federal government’s bailout of the bankrupt automaker, when negotiators from the company and the union began brainstorming about what it would take to make a profitable subcompact car in the United States rather than in low-wage countries.

“We wanted to prove we could do it,” said Diana D. Tremblay, G.M.’s head of global manufacturing.

The U.A.W. tried to persuade the Ford Motor Company to build the Fiesta subcompact in the United States. But Ford chose a plant in Mexico, where the combined wages and benefits of a production worker total less than $10 an hour. By contrast, a full-wage union member in the United States costs G.M. close to $60 an hour. Even an entry-level wage employee costs about $30 an hour in wages and benefits.

While it is not the only factor in producing a profitable subcompact, lower employment costs were critical to the decision to build the Sonic in Michigan. In a groundbreaking labor agreement, the union allowed G.M. to pay 40 percent of its union workers at Orion Township an “entry-level” wage that sharply reduces overall production costs.

“The entry-level wage structure was an important enabler, because obviously the smaller the car the less the margin,” said Ms. Tremblay.

The U.A.W.’s president, Bob King, said the union considered the significance of a competitive subcompact to G.M.’s overall product lineup. The Sonic is the first subcompact that G.M. has tried to build in its home market since the Chevrolet Chevette almost 40 years ago, aside from a brief joint effort with Toyota to build Geo Prizms. The smallest car in its lineup now is the Chevrolet Aveo, a subcompact developed by G.M.’s South Korean subsidiary. A version of the Sonic to be sold overseas will be built in South Korea.

“We are committed to the success of the company,” Mr. King said recently. “We had to talk about a business model that makes sense.”

For all its promise, the Sonic still has to convince consumers that G.M. has found the right formula for an attractive and affordable subcompact. Previous subcompacts efforts like the Geo Prizm and the Aveo were bland and underpowered, and contributed to G.M.’s lackluster reputation in the overall car market.

“G.M. has a lot to prove with the Sonic,” said Joseph Phillippi of the research firm Auto Trends . “They have to cut costs but still put out a competitive car.”

The car itself is a mosaic of innovation to make the Sonic lighter, less costly and more fuel-efficient, including high-strength steel used in its windshield pillars and the ultrathin film applied to prevent rust. The Sonic sedan resembles a shrunken version of the Chevrolet Cruze, while the hatchback version is distinguished by its short rear overhang and upright stance.

The Sonic weighs 500 pounds less and is eight inches shorter than the next biggest car G.M. makes, and its little 1.4-.liter turbocharged engine will deliver the best gas mileage in the company’s fleet. “It will be north of 40 miles per gallon,” said Jim Federico, head of G.M.’s global small cars and electric vehicles.

Still, to get the car to meet cost-saving goals, a team of G.M. engineers and manufacturing specialists also had to adapt and reconfigure the Orion plant, which opened in 1983 and was used to build big cars like the Buick Riviera. G.M. spent heavily in converting the plant, investing $545 million in new equipment and retraining workers — and it shows, from the gleaming floors to the banks of fluorescent lighting that brighten the plant and save $430,000 a year in energy costs. The plant is also the company’s greenest, producing 80 percent less solid waste and using 20 percent less water, all at a savings.

Various stages along the assembly line, like the body shop and trim area, are more compact, with teams of six workers installing parts fed to them on automated carts by independent suppliers who operate inside the plant. That reduces costly inventory and improves productivity. “Normally the suppliers would be five miles away versus 50 feet,” said John Barry, a G.M. manager.

The plant over all employs 1,800, a reduction of 25 percent. To augment the small profit earned on the Sonic, the workers will also make the larger, more upscale Buick Verano on the same line. Overall capacity at the plant is 160,000 cars a year. Even the two shifts have been fine-tuned to four 10-hour days rather than the usual five-day week to better maintain the machinery and save energy.

Every dollar saved is essential for the Sonic to compete, auto experts said. And if the car is a winner with consumers — production begins in August — the Orion factory could become a model.

“This plant has the potential to redefine American manufacturing,” said Harley Shaiken, a labor professor at the University of California, Berkeley. “A success here indicates untapped capabilities.”

:clap:

I give GM credit for being the only ones to build a sub-compact in the US.
Hopefully though, the cost cutting doesn't prove troublesome. I'm still confident that the Sonic will prove to be a very good car, light years ahead of Aveo.

[Shroomster]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/13/business/with-chevrolet-sonic-gm-and-uaw-reinvent-automaking.html?_r=1

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/07/13/business/13sonic-span/13sonic-span-articleLarge.jpg



:clap:

I give GM credit for being the only ones to build a sub-compact in the US.
Hopefully though, the cost cutting doesn't prove troublesome. I'm still confident that the Sonic will prove to be a very good car, light years ahead of Aveo.

Total labor/production costs, location, model name aside...WTF is different about it from the current half model year Aveo that is rolling around out here?

Why the emphasis?

[Kal-El]

Total labor/production costs, location, model name aside...WTF is different about it from the current half model year Aveo that is rolling around out here?

Why the emphasis?

Huh? :confused:

You really think there's not much difference?

The difference is greater than any typical complete redesign. Why? Because they are two cars built by two different companies. One by Deawoo, and one by GM. Comparing the Aveo to the Sonic is about the same as comparing the Aveo to the Yaris. Yup, that different.

Does this look like the Aveo?


http://car-ref.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/2012-chevrolet-sonic-interior.jpg

[kimona]

You actually find this car appealing? Yuk! It's uglier than the new Vitz.

[Kal-El]

You actually find this car appealing? Yuk! It's uglier than the new Vitz.

I certainly wouldn't buy one, but I wouldn't say it's ugly. This and the new Yaris are both very good looking. The best looking car in the segment though is the Fiesta.

Just saying that you gotta appreciate how big of an improvement this car is over the Aveo, the worst car of the last 10 years.

[dmfang]

definitely looks like an improvement over the Aveo.

Not going to be trading in anytime soon, but it'll be interesting to see how the Sonic does at market... and what people think once the actual car can be tested in the real world

[detroiter]

If it's any indication though, I think the Ford Fiesta and the Focus will have it beat. I've read in Motor Trend that Ford WILL be releasing a souped up version of the Fiesta, putting down 180hp I believe. The Focus will obviously be a bit more.

Looks like the Yaris is once again being outdone by other companies who are updating their subcompacts and boosting power/handling. Such a shame on Toyotas part in my opinion.

Here's some proof and pics of the Fiesta ST
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1043637_2013-ford-fiesta-st-spy-shots

[CrankyOldMan]

So is this the realization of the "beat" and "spark" concepts that have been blowing around since 2008-ish? Or is that still going to happen everywhere but the US?

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q1/2010_2012_chevrolet_spark-first_drive_review

[Shroomster]

it's still the aveo body that screams poor choices.....at least to me...and I hate how there is so much trickle down and not enough differentiation between the models....they all share far too many similar aspects...the center instrumentation/radio panels same as the malibu and the cruze... just my .02

[toad]

i saw a white hatch parked in my neighbor's driveway yesterday. haven't had a chance to ask him about it yet, but it looked pretty nice from a short distance.

i would definately drive one(manual with the turbo, please)!

[Thirty-Nine]

So is this the realization of the "beat" and "spark" concepts that have been blowing around since 2008-ish? Or is that still going to happen everywhere but the US?

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q1/2010_2012_chevrolet_spark-first_drive_review

Spark is already on sale in a number of countries. There are still rumors it may happen here, too. The Sonic is a straight-up Aveo replacement.

[jpmck03]

Total labor/production costs, location, model name aside...WTF is different about it from the current half model year Aveo that is rolling around out here?

Why the emphasis?

I see what you're saying... It does look pretty similar to what they are selling right now... Doesn't seem too radical of a change on the exterior.

You actually find this car appealing? Yuk! It's uglier than the new Vitz.

+1. I swear the Aveo and this new Sonic are so hideous. I mean, what's up with the front end on this thing?

:barf:

No aspect of either car is appealing to me. No, wait there is one good thing about them; they make the Yaris look sooo much better in comparison!

[Shinare]

Why do I keep seeing pictures of the interior of the sonic with a 6 speed manual when it will not be available with such?

[fnkngrv]

I have to admit that GM is at least trying to bring something to the market. I would need to see the hatch in person however I know I don't care for the sedan. It should make a HUGE difference moving away from Daewoo.

[thebarber]

all i have to say is factory forced induction = win.

[Thirty-Nine]

Why do I keep seeing pictures of the interior of the sonic with a 6 speed manual when it will not be available with such?

Where did you hear it wouldn't be available with a six-speed?

With a targeted 40 mpg highway from 1.4-liter, six-speed manual-equipped models and a genuinely engaging driving experience, the Sonic has the bones to be a legitimate competitor.

Posted 6/2/11
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/06/02/2012-chevrolet-sonic-quick-spin-review/

[carnageehw]

Love the inside, and hope it does well. But it's still butt ugly, just like the Aveo.

[Shinare]

Where did you hear it wouldn't be available with a six-speed?



Posted 6/2/11
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/06/02/2012-chevrolet-sonic-quick-spin-review/

The information in the OP.

Shifting duties are handled by either a five-speed manual transmission or a six-speed automatic gearbox.

[PROX4x4]

It is still Chevy LOL, problem with GM and Chrysler is that they are not sure how to design their cars, every year you see a new face.
I bet fuel economy would suck as Aveo (32 at best).

[thebarber]

It is still Chevy LOL, problem with GM and Chrysler is that they are not sure how to design their cars, every year you see a new face.
I bet fuel economy would suck as Aveo (32 at best).
sorry, have you been keeping an eye on the impreza for the last decade?

The information in the OP.

pretty sure its just the 1.8L that has a 5spd...?

[PROX4x4]

sorry, have you been keeping an eye on the impreza for the last decade?



pretty sure its just the 1.8L that has a 5spd...?

Not a big Subaru fan either! :biggrin:

[djct_watt]

http://car-ref.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/2012-chevrolet-sonic-interior.jpg

I didn't know that you could select "P" on a manual transmission, LOL.

[jekqmb]

Wait until HPtuners gets ahold of one and people can start tuning them, the cobalt ss/tc can make 300whp with a tune only! This car will be a 200whp car with a few bolt-ons and a tune. I love it!

[detroiter]

New 2012 Subaru Impreza is rated at 26 mpg city...36mpg highway.

Don't know about you but it's pretty impressive when a car with awd and has more hp/torque than the Yaris, is getting similar mileage.

Come on Toyota...get your act together.

[sqcomp]

Yeah but I'd give up HP for quality and longevity.

Wait, I did. My last car was a new SRT. I moved from one extreme to another. So far, I've proved myself in making a good decision to move from a little "hot rod" to a gas miser.

Honestly though, I'm getting 6 MPG more than what Toyota is reporting and I'm simply diriving conservatively. I'll be willing to bet that the Impreza doesn't break it's 36 by much if at all.

[PROX4x4]

Most of the close-to-40 MPG's reported by manufacturers is not proven yet.

I am just amazed that Toyota only reports 29/36 on Yaris while people get a minimum of 32 and I myself experienced 45.1MPG Highway.

[PROX4x4]

Yaris might not be a sports hatch but is swift enough to let me be the first person to leave the light.

[PROX4x4]

http://car-ref.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/2012-chevrolet-sonic-interior.jpg

I didn't know that you could select "P" on a manual transmission, LOL.

I see a lot of Fit and CRZ dna in this cars interior :biggrin:

[Kal-El]

Most of the close-to-40 MPG's reported by manufacturers is not proven yet.

I am just amazed that Toyota only reports 29/36 on Yaris while people get a minimum of 32 and I myself experienced 45.1MPG Highway.

The manufacturers have nothing to do with those numbers.

They are the numbers achieved by the EPA (government) test cycles. And that cycle became much more conservative in 2008 (which dropped ratings significantly).

The pre-2008 rating for the Yaris was 34/40, which is actually more accurate than the new "real world" test results.

[Kal-El]

I see a lot of Fit and CRZ dna in this cars interior :biggrin:

I don't see any similarity.

And Honda wishes they could make an interior this nice in this segment. :wink:

Only Acura interiors are better, LOL.

[kimona]

I think the interior looks like a gaudy bloody mess! Absolutely nothing I like about it. Even the steering wheel is ugly!

[Kal-El]

I think the interior looks like a gaudy bloody mess! Absolutely nothing I like about it. Even the steering wheel is ugly!

Really?

I would easily rate this the best looking and best quality interior in the sub-compact segment. Outside of maybe the digital speedo. Give me an analog display.

[detroiter]

I'll bet you that plastic interior is harder than Ron Jeremy with 3 girls...