AEM FIC Tuning

[Scubaru Steve]

anyone know what the voltage - afr table is for the stock echo/yaris o2 sensor?
also how to switch over the controller to sent out a signal or the stock computer to read so i can tune open loop?

[Focus_Sh1ft]

anyone know what the voltage - afr table is for the stock echo/yaris o2 sensor?
also how to switch over the controller to sent out a signal or the stock computer to read so i can tune open loop?

1). I don't think anyone has even set up the O2 signal properly on the 1NZ. I've tried all the methods AEM recommends and had no luck.

2). If you're asking how the FIC can be set up to only send signals during open loop that's easy. You would just edit the fuel map only where the car enters open loop.

If you're asking how to send a signal to the ECU to switch to open loop then that is impossible. Well, not impossible but no one has figured out a way to do so.

Open loop tuning... Do it :thumbup:

Your welcome to try and solve some of the issues I mentioned though. Personally, I went with what is known to work rather than being a perfectionist.

[cdydjded]

anyone know what the voltage - afr table is for the stock echo/yaris o2 sensor?
also how to switch over the controller to sent out a signal or the stock computer to read so i can tune open loop?

1) The AFR table is to set the max voltage sent to the AFM. As the AFM sees more air it sends a voltage signal to the ECU. Usually its in the range of +/- 1-5 volts I think. The ECU doesnt like +5 volts.

2) Not possible with the FIC. Focus & Pimp disconected the o2 sensor to have the car always on open loop. Not sure if both, the front one or the second one.

[Scubaru Steve]

the reason im asking these questions is that im not used to tuning piggy backs, my wrx i can just hook in my laptop and open source tune my ecu, i have found no product to do it for the 1nzfe.

so now with this piggy back i get to try to tune.
i have been reading the book and i see that there is an afr-voltage table.
there is also something in there stating that you can install a resistor in the wiring so the fic can output the proper voltage to keep the stock ecu happy in closed loop. is that what clamping is called? when done to the o2 or maf?
at what cfm does the maf hit 5 volts? is it even possible with the t14?

as for open loop.... im sure its the same for all 1zfe's? when does it switch over from closed? i know wot is open...

[CTScott]

the reason im asking these questions is that im not used to tuning piggy backs, my wrx i can just hook in my laptop and open source tune my ecu, i have found no product to do it for the 1nzfe.

so now with this piggy back i get to try to tune.
i have been reading the book and i see that there is an afr-voltage table.
there is also something in there stating that you can install a resistor in the wiring so the fic can output the proper voltage to keep the stock ecu happy in closed loop. is that what clamping is called? when done to the o2 or maf?
at what cfm does the maf hit 5 volts? is it even possible with the t14?

as for open loop.... im sure its the same for all 1zfe's? when does it switch over from closed? i know wot is open...

For the 02 Sensors:
Sensor 1: 0 to 7.999V
Sensor 2: 0 to 1.275V

The MAF sensor normal operating voltage range is 0.4V to 2.2V (below 0.2 and above 4.9 will trigger a DTC).

The three conditions that I know of that cause open loop are coolant temp below 75C, WOT, and O2 Sensor below a certain temp (I don't remember what temp off the top of my head).

I have done some experimentation with forcing open loop, but have yet to find a method that doesn't eventually set a DTC. Fooling the coolant temp input seemed like it was going to work, but keeping it in that state for more than 900 seconds (15 minutes) of driving causes an "Insufficient Coolant Temperature for Closed Loop Fuel Control" to be logged.

[cdydjded]

For the 02 Sensors:
Sensor 1: 0 to 7.999V
Sensor 2: 0 to 1.275V

The MAF sensor normal operating voltage range is 0.4V to 2.2V (below 0.2 and above 4.9 will trigger a DTC).

The three conditions that I know of that cause open loop are coolant temp below 75C, WOT, and O2 Sensor below a certain temp (I don't remember what temp off the top of my head).

I have done some experimentation with forcing open loop, but have yet to find a method that doesn't eventually set a DTC. Fooling the coolant temp input seemed like it was going to work, but keeping it in that state for more than 900 seconds (15 minutes) of driving causes an "Insufficient Coolant Temperature for Closed Loop Fuel Control" to be logged.

Directly from the electrical master....

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Directly from the electrical master....

Yeps.

The way I see it is you're going to get a CEL no matter what you do when attempting to force open loop. Why not just unplug the AFR sensor and take complete control?

I think the only method that hasn't been thoroughly tested in forcing open loop was by decreasing the amperage that reaches the O2 heater. I remember I was reading it supposedly won't throw a code if it's above .8A, and usually it operates at a higher amperage during closed loop. However it's likely it would throw a code anyway if it didn't heat up within an certain amount of time.

Toyota =/= Subaru in the slightest when it comes to aftermarket ECU tuning lol.

[Scubaru Steve]

i dont mean keeping it in open loop. as for not being able to heat up the o2 sensor that will give it a shorter life span and probably throw a code.
on page 18 of the instructions its saying "fixed" mode the fic outputs a square wave that alternates between the bank high and low voltage.

maybe ill just do the open loop for now then mess with closed.

anyone know where closed ends and open starts?
also... anyone have problems with bov's? i know it runs rich for a split second, but does the ecu try to solve that?

[Scubaru Steve]

alright, so im sure this is more difficult with an automatic. but does anyone know where closed loop ends and open loop takes over? i also think that if i take a small amount of voltage away from the 02 sensor during boost in closed loop i may be able to get low 13's out of it, (at least away from the 14-15) if there are any fic gurus please feel free to chime in.

[Bluevitz-rs]

Just so everyone is on the same page, the Echo ECU and Yaris ECU are COMPLETELY different in their logic. The Yaris is more hard core.

You could try clamping the intake air temp sensor at -40°. I don't know if it'll force closed loop but you should be able to switch it on the fly without setting a code as the ECU would simply thing the air suddenly got really cold.

Have you had a look on the Scion forums yet? They might be able to shed more light on open/closed loop as they're more closely related.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

I don't know how they differ in operation, but open/closed loop should still behave the same way.

You definitely have the right idea by subtracting voltage from the O2 to change the desired AFR in closed loop.

[Scubaru Steve]

well i went out there to tune it today, just got back, i added as much as 3.1% more fuel at 6000rpm, it sits nice at 11.1 afr. i have it set to pull 3* timing.
this turbo auto is so awesome, brake stand make the rear of the car sit 2 inches lower and then the brakes can hold 5psi off the line..

Not sure where closed loop ends so i'm using 3800 rpm to introduce fuel. no bogging issues.
im impressed with this little car!

[Yoda]

Just be careful when below 3800rpm. Partial throttle can still make boom.

[Scubaru Steve]

i know that, its an auto so if you want any power out of it, the car downshifts and all goes well.

today i'm doing some data logging and going to see how much voltage i need to take away from the 02 voltage. im going to make it tickle 13-14 afr rather then the 14-15 i see. it will make fuel mileage worse but will keep everything cooler and hopefully last longer. you can only adjust at certain voltage/rpm, so this may take a while to figure out, ill probably have to adjust everwhere but idle and under 3800rpm, unless i can find out where open loop starts and i can fine tune.

not sure what psia you guys are running but im only hitting 18.
18-14.7 = 3.3psi , it is showing 5 psi gauge pressure.
i think i may try a good manual boost controler (http://www.grimmspeed.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=151&products_id=165) to up it to 20 psia 7psi at my altitude.

what you guys think?

[Focus_Sh1ft]

In my opinion, there's no benefit to be had by having a 13-14 AFR out of boost. I'm constantly running 15-15.5 out of boost, sometimes even slightly leaner, and haven't had any issues.

A boost controller would be a good idea as well. However, if you're not hitting max boost then it's likely you have a boost leak somewhere. I currently have the same problem. A boost controller would be a good idea, but if you're getting manual make sure you get the ball and spring type.

[Scubaru Steve]

there is no boost leak, waste gate is set to 5psi, i'm running 5psi.
the only difference is that 5psi here at 3800ft is only 3.3psi at sea level.

as for adjusting the afr's, i hit 5psi at 2500rpm in closed loop. you cannot change only for boost, only voltage at rpm. so that is the only way to change the afr's.

[cali yaris]

I'm constantly running 15-15.5 out of boost, sometimes even slightly leaner, and haven't had any issues.

Right. Yet. You're definitely shortening the life of the motor.

If that weren't so, Toyota would run the motor at that AFR too, and so would everyone else.

[thebarber]

i have a couple of friends with s/c'd 2zz's, here is what was said via msn...

adam barber says:
do you know how evil and pmag tuned w/ piggyback?

is it all open loop?

i seem to recall evil had some kind of trick to fool the maf or ecu or something...

drunkennewfiemidget says:

Yea..

The ECU goes into open loop when you go WOT.

So he has the TPS signal run into a relay.

And then the emanage outputs a faked TPS signal.

When it detects boost, the relay fires (digital output), switching the tps signal from the actual tps to the faked tps value from the emanage.

Putting the car into open loop.

The other option is to tap into narrowband and fake the o2 reading to have the factory ecu richen the mixture.

[Scubaru Steve]

the tps sounds like it works.
i found a function in the fic to switch the o2 map to be switchable with boost pressure. now just need to test drive to see how well it works!
it worked sitting in the parking lot, i was able to drop it down to 12.2 at idle.
so it is tunable, now just trial and error to see how well it works.

[thebarber]

;)

[Focus_Sh1ft]

i found a function in the fic to switch the o2 map to be switchable with boost pressure. now just need to test drive to see how well it works!
it worked sitting in the parking lot, i was able to drop it down to 12.2 at idle.

I'm jealous lol. That's exactly what I wanted to do but could never get the O2 skew to work correctly.

Right. Yet. You're definitely shortening the life of the motor.

If that weren't so, Toyota would run the motor at that AFR too, and so would everyone else.

Definitely in agreement here, and was going to richen the entire map when the weather warmed up.

I always thought low 15 was safe because in closed loop the mixture would generally run on the leaner side of stoich, and go as lean as 15.4ish frequently. I probably should just be playing it safe rather than trying to squeeze out as much fuel economy as possible...

[Bluevitz-rs]

Right. Yet. You're definitely shortening the life of the motor.

If that weren't so, Toyota would run the motor at that AFR too, and so would everyone else.

Toyota does. Stock the cars (Toyota's in general) can run as high as 17:1 AFR while at cruise.

[Bluevitz-rs]

I'm jealous lol. That's exactly what I wanted to do but could never get the O2 skew to work correctly.



Definitely in agreement here, and was going to richen the entire map when the weather warmed up.

I always thought low 15 was safe because in closed loop the mixture would generally run on the leaner side of stoich, and go as lean as 15.4ish frequently. I probably should just be playing it safe rather than trying to squeeze out as much fuel economy as possible...

This is what I was saying about the difference between the Yaris ECU and the Echo ECU. The Echo's is way more forgiving if it doesn't see normal values. The Yaris will freak out and correct them.

[Scubaru Steve]

Toyota does. Stock the cars (Toyota's in general) can run as high as 17:1 AFR while at cruise.

i dont know where you got you information... but 14.5-15.2 seems to be the norm at cruise. and thats the closed loop setting unless you start tuning that.

at 17 there is a severe loss of power. when we had the bogging issue thats where it was, then the ecu would dump fuel and suddenly it had a ton of power.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

This is what I was saying about the difference between the Yaris ECU and the Echo ECU. The Echo's is way more forgiving if it doesn't see normal values. The Yaris will freak out and correct them.

I'm just curious as to why you think this? Theoretically, if you're manipulating the AFR sensor's voltage, it can't really correct itself since it's the main method of fueling feedback (and therefore will think that everything is okay).

However, I definitely think the ECU might see continuous low voltage at the AFR sensor and throw a code. More importantly though, it probably would throw the engine into open loop. No one has really tested this method of tuning on the Yaris yet, so I'm just speculating.

Could this be where the Yaris and Echo ECUs differ?

[Bluevitz-rs]

For one, the Yaris uses one AFR sensor and one O2 sensor. The Echo uses two O2 sensor, so it's not as smart when it comes to correcting fueling. That's why the Yaris has a better emissions rating than the Echo does.

And about the AFR running as high as 17:1. That's what I was taught at Toyota Canada during a training session a few years ago. It won't be 17:1 under any significant load, it's only under certain conditions like: crusing at 80km/h down a slight grade but you're still on the throttle. There's really no load on the engine, but it's not on DFC either.

[cali yaris]

Toyota does. Stock the cars (Toyota's in general) can run as high as 17:1 AFR while at cruise.

Thanks for clarifying that this is only under certain no-load conditions. Maybe this is what he was describing, but probably not:

I'm constantly running 15-15.5 out of boost, sometimes even slightly leaner

[Bluevitz-rs]

All I was getting at is that it's possible to see a really high AFR while driving. As long as it's not under boost

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Yeah sorry let me clarify... It's inaccurate to say that I'm running at 15-15.5 all the time outside of boost. Whenever I'm cruising I allow it to go that lean because it does seem safe to me since the engine is under a lower load than say, when under acceleration. I only say it seems safe because

1) under very low load the mixture goes as lean as 17-18 (DFCO). So shouldn't it be safe to run a little leaner than stoich at low loads?
2) like I said earlier, if you watch closed loop, it will go as lean as 15.4 WHILE CRUISING. Usually the AFR will hold more around 14.7 while accelerating. I attempted to emulate this behavior:
3) as I do approach a higher load on the engine, I keep the AFR under 15. And really, that's only under low load because I have a linear approach set up that begins when the manifold absolute pressure begins approaching atmosphere (and reaches 11.5 AFR by 5 psi boost).

I definitely am no expert on this, so my tune is largely from what I've read and assumptions like the one's above. My goal was to achieve a safe tune that maximizes full economy. If you guys think I have the wrong idea, please let me know.

[cali yaris]

^ Hey I was going by what you actually said which was:

I'm constantly running 15-15.5 out of boost, sometimes even slightly leaner

Now you are saying:

It's inaccurate to say that I'm running at 15-15.5 all the time outside of boost.

So, ok I guess we are good now

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Sorry about that :laugh:

Think about it though. With such a small turbocharger, pretty much anytime you give the engine a decent bit of throttle you're almost immediately entering boost. So really most of the time is either spent cruising or in boost anyways.

The lesson to be learned here is word choice means everything. :wink:

[cali yaris]

hehe, onward then!

[Bluevitz-rs]

Did you getting all sorted out yet?

[Scubaru Steve]

Did you getting all sorted out yet?

well, the 02 map seems to work intermittently, at -27*C the car doesn't pull to hard, but... when its +5 i was able to keep up to a 350z, man was he shocked!

i need to do some more playing around and find a way to do some better tuning, will still need to do the exhaust, weapon r intake manifold, larger fmic and we have a greddy mbc to bump us up to 7psi.

[johnny_vitz]

when its +5 i was able to keep up to a 350z, man was he shocked!



lol what was wrong with the 350Z?

[Scubaru Steve]

lol what was wrong with the 350Z?
dunno, he had sweet sounding exhaust, car was painted flat black. i know there not that quick but i was expecting him to pull alot harder then what he did.

im gonna email greddy to see if they have a larger turbo that will bolt right into their kit.

[johnny_vitz]

dunno, he had sweet sounding exhaust, car was painted flat black. i know there not that quick but i was expecting him to pull alot harder then what he did.

im gonna email greddy to see if they have a larger turbo that will bolt right into their kit.

I've never driven a 350 but I've driven a couple G35 coupes and I know they would destroy my car in a straight line. I've tried to contact Greddy a couple times but never gotten a response :iono:

[Scubaru Steve]

I've never driven a 350 but I've driven a couple G35 coupes and I know they would destroy my car in a straight line. I've tried to contact Greddy a couple times but never gotten a response :iono:

i have 2 turbos laying around, a td04, and a ihi vf24 from my wrx.
both have the same manifold flange, different downpipe.
i wonder how much difference there would be between the turbos...

i kinda want something that will spool at 3500 and run 5psi at a large cfm. i know its not realistic for the car but would make tuning a dream since its in open loop up there.