Turbo system

[Thirty-Nine]

I happned to run across this site which has Yaris turbo systems and I thought I'd share.

http://www.whyindustries.com/store/index.php?cPath=23_90_32_37

Anyone ever seen this?

[Kaotic Lazagna]

i posted a pic of that red sedan in a thread somewhere.

[Nutzoids]

Nice Find... But $3,299.00... F_THAT... 2,500 maybe

:evil:

[punch]

nice find, nothing on engine management though?

[graywolf_14]

That seems to be this engines biggest problem with gaining hp. From what everyone say the ecu is pretty smart and hard to crack.

[ChinoCharles]

In the past few months, I have been to a few speed shops with my car. At each one I have mentioned that I wanted to turbo or supercharge my car. At each one, other cars were in the shop which had received custom forced induction systems... I've seen RX-8's, Civics, 5.0's, DSM's, Chargers, Darts, Datsuns, you name it. At every shop I have been to, I was told that a custom setup could be built for my car.

You immediately think that a custom job will automatically be more expensive, but this often isn't the case for a couple of reasons.

1) Shops that specialize in high performance modifications often get prices on forced induction accessories that would make your head explode.
2) Since there are few kits on the market for the Yaris, you can often try and weasel out a deal with the shop that leaves you paying less for the kit and leaves them introducing your new custom kit for retail sale.

Also, these guys take pride in what they do. They want your car to perform and be reliable just as bad as you do. With their system, your car carries their name, and there is nothing that brings a garage down to hell faster than blowing up a car.

A speed shop will often take a more wholistic approach to forcing induction. When I was talking to Don Yuse at the Race Car Factory about a supercharged Yaris, the first thing he said was "I'll want to take your engine apart." I mean, is your internet-purchased turbo kit going to look at your piston rods and make sure they're strong enough to handle the 8-10 (or more) pounds of boost you're about to bolt on? I don't think so.

Something to think about...

Oh, and about the ECU thing, it isn't hard to crack persay. You just need a piggyback system in these cars... ie: GReddy's E-manage. They go for $300-500 or so depending on what you get, but they work wonders. It would be a good investment for a Yaris that might be making 15-20% more power than stock. It would be an absolutely necessary investment for a yaris that is sprayed/tc/sc.

The GReddy E-manage Ultimate is out now, so the original E-manage should plummet in price.

[Doc Zaius]

i'm hoping to turbocharge at some point in the (distant i.e. off-warranty) future... and i fully believe you'd have to upgrade the pistons and rods to handle the boost. these engines run a 10.5:1 compression... way too high for boosting safely! i'm thinking a set of forged, lower-compression (8.5?) pistons and forged rods for the future.

[spkrman]

i'm hoping to turbocharge at some point in the (distant i.e. off-warranty) future... and i fully believe you'd have to upgrade the pistons and rods to handle the boost. these engines run a 10.5:1 compression... way too high for boosting safely! i'm thinking a set of forged, lower-compression (8.5?) pistons and forged rods for the future.

ZPI has some low compression pistons made for that use :)

[Doc Zaius]

ya, they say they do: 8.5 comp pistons (http://www.zeropointindustries.net/store/product_info.php?cPath=83_100_107&products_id=77), but still no pics. they also don't have a spectacular reputation on scionlife. i believe there's a user on here who had forged pistons made... DTMYaris or something like that.

[DTM_Yaris]

ya, they say they do: 8.5 comp pistons (http://www.zeropointindustries.net/store/product_info.php?cPath=83_100_107&products_id=77), but still no pics. they also don't have a spectacular reputation on scionlife. i believe there's a user on here who had forged pistons made... DTMYaris or something like that.
I have a kit comming out in a couple of weeks. EMS and all.

[DTM_Yaris]

Oh, and about the ECU thing, it isn't hard to crack persay.
It is not as easy as you think.

[acrbill]

It is not as easy as you think.

I don't think he meant crack the actual ecu. I think he means its not hard to adapt a piggyback with the ecu. The e-manage is pretty sweet since it has an internal map sensor and the ability to drive extra injectors or allow the use of larger injectors while maintaining off boost a/f mix.

Any turbo kit you go with is going to be a low boost application since the engine has pretty high compression.

[DTM_Yaris]

I don't think he meant crack the actual ecu. I think he means its not hard to adapt a piggyback with the ecu. The e-manage is pretty sweet since it has an internal map sensor and the ability to drive extra injectors or allow the use of larger injectors while maintaining off boost a/f mix.

Any turbo kit you go with is going to be a low boost application since the engine has pretty high compression.
The adaptive learning strategy in the Yaris ecu is very rough to over come with even 8 psi.
Trust me I'm working on it as we speak. Its nice to get a few WOT runs clean, but never consistant. It takes alot of time to tune this particular ecu. At least to a point where it WILL be consistant.
I've tried a new approach lately that seems to be working much better.

[acrbill]

The adaptive learning strategy in the Yaris ecu is very rough to over come with even 8 psi.
Trust me I'm working on it as we speak. Its nice to get a few WOT runs clean, but never consistant. It takes alot of time to tune this particular ecu. At least to a point where it WILL be consistant.
I've tried a new approach lately that seems to be working much better.

Put the MAF sensor on the inlet side of the turbo. Let the piggyback do all the work. Theh stock ecu shouldn't even realize that the car is no longer stock.

[DTM_Yaris]

Put the MAF sensor on the inlet side of the turbo. Let the piggyback do all the work. Theh stock ecu shouldn't even realize that the car is no longer stock.
The maf sensor is able to output over 8 volts. Thats not the problem. The problem is the voltage the ecu sees!
If it sees over 2.8 volts at "x" rpm and throttle position it will go crazy. Trust me I have done it.
But I am working around this, meaning the stock ecu will never know that it is force fed.

[acrbill]

The maf sensor is able to output over 8 volts. Thats not the problem. The problem is the voltage the ecu sees!
If it sees over 2.8 volts at "x" rpm and throttle position it will go crazy. Trust me I have done it.
But I am working around this, meaning the stock ecu will never know that it is force fed.

If the MAF sensor is on the inlet side of the turbo Its not going to have compressed air going through it so the reading of the air going into the turbo will be accurate when your not in boost. Maybe once your in boost the turbo is sucking in more air there might be an issue, but all you would need would be a voltage clamp. Thats strange that it reads 8 volts. I would have assumed that it was 5v like a MAP sensor.

[DTM_Yaris]

If the MAF sensor is on the inlet side of the turbo Its not going to have compressed air going through it so the reading of the air going into the turbo will be accurate when your not in boost. Maybe once your in boost the turbo is sucking in more air there might be an issue, but all you would need would be a voltage clamp. Thats strange that it reads 8 volts. I would have assumed that it was 5v like a MAP sensor.
Whether the MAF is on the inducer or discharge side of the equation makes little difference for drivability. Closed loop operation was and is fine. My posts have been strictly about boost and open loop mode. The voltage clamp will not help when you are in boost either. The computer takes into account Airtemp, throttle position (or anticipated position for DBW), coolant temp, rpm and crank position.
It is not like the old days when we could just play the analog game. It has checks and balances in the algorithms.
It is very difficult to overcome.

[spkrman]

The maf sensor is able to output over 8 volts. Thats not the problem. The problem is the voltage the ecu sees!
If it sees over 2.8 volts at "x" rpm and throttle position it will go crazy. Trust me I have done it.
But I am working around this, meaning the stock ecu will never know that it is force fed.

details? :)

[03Z33]

I'm happy to see you working on this. I'll be in the market for something like this shortly.
Regarding the MAF signal, what I usually see people do is one of the following:

1. Reprogram ECU to accept higher volage input (usually not possible on newer cars)

2. Oversize MAF housing to reduce air velocity (requires retune of ECU or piggyback to recalibrate for the new lower signal inputs)

3. Install resistor in-line between MAF and ECU on signal wire to recalibrate the maximum voltage to the ECU (this also requires recalibrating the ECU software for the different signal, or a piggyback to adjust).

4. Clamp MAF signal to max voltage ECU likes. This will usually benefit from a retune also.

5. Install any one of many piggy-back options which will adaptively do the above for you by constantly monitoring and adapting the different signals the ECU is depending on. This sometimes doesn't work well due to the adaptive nature of the stock ECU, which sometimes "undoes" the corrections the piggy-back is trying to implement.

6. Or you can always dump the MAF all together and convert to MAP, by either reprograming the ECU to accept MAP signals/voltages instead of MAF signal or by dumping the stock ECU all together and running a stand alone ECU.

[Nutzoids]

I am not 100% sure… but so far the only difference I have found between a Turbo kit for the xA/xB and the Yaris has been… the Intercooler on the Yaris needs to be a little bit thinner… 3” in thickness, as opposed to the Scion 4”… I think the tubing has all the same bends too… But that is the last thing I need to research, and admittedly it is much harder… Short of buying both kits and checking it out for shits and giggles… And I am way to poor for that… Plus I don’t think our Venders want us knowing that either way!

Did anyone else compare the 2 on that link????

:evil:

[spkrman]

yaris turbo kits WILL be available before the end of summer, I can say that for sure :)

[acrbill]

yaris turbo kits WILL be available before the end of summer, I can say that for sure :)

Don't you have an automatic? I highly doubt a transmission built to propel a 106HP 2300# car will take the extra power and torque.

[DTM_Yaris]

I'm happy to see you working on this. I'll be in the market for something like this shortly.
Regarding the MAF signal, what I usually see people do is one of the following:

1. Reprogram ECU to accept higher volage input (usually not possible on newer cars)

2. Oversize MAF housing to reduce air velocity (requires retune of ECU or piggyback to recalibrate for the new lower signal inputs)

3. Install resistor in-line between MAF and ECU on signal wire to recalibrate the maximum voltage to the ECU (this also requires recalibrating the ECU software for the different signal, or a piggyback to adjust).

4. Clamp MAF signal to max voltage ECU likes. This will usually benefit from a retune also.

5. Install any one of many piggy-back options which will adaptively do the above for you by constantly monitoring and adapting the different signals the ECU is depending on. This sometimes doesn't work well due to the adaptive nature of the stock ECU, which sometimes "undoes" the corrections the piggy-back is trying to implement.

6. Or you can always dump the MAF all together and convert to MAP, by either reprograming the ECU to accept MAP signals/voltages instead of MAF signal or by dumping the stock ECU all together and running a stand alone ECU.

1.Unfortunately reflashing or reprogramming interface is unavailable at this time.

2.Unfortunately reflashing or reprogramming interface is unavailable at this time.

3.Unfortunately reflashing or reprogramming interface is unavailable at this time.

4.The problem with this, like I mention above, is that the ecu will look at preprogrammed values. They will not be in line with the amount of airflow it would see N/A with a certain throttle voltage and air temp. It will think the MAF is bad. Now not while the car is just daily driving, Just when under boost when it counts!

5.The problem with many piggybacks is also the fact that there aren't that many outputs. they usually will allow 256 point adjustments for (1) 0-5 volt analog input. Some will do 02 feedback manipulation, BUT they only work well on older ECU's. Not the CANBUS system we see in the Toyotas and many OEM applications.

6.Unfortunately reflashing or reprogramming interface is unavailable at this time.

[DTM_Yaris]

I am not 100% sure… but so far the only difference I have found between a Turbo kit for the xA/xB and the Yaris has been… the Intercooler on the Yaris needs to be a little bit thinner… 3” in thickness, as opposed to the Scion 4”… I think the tubing has all the same bends too… But that is the last thing I need to research, and admittedly it is much harder… Short of buying both kits and checking it out for shits and giggles… And I am way to poor for that… Plus I don’t think our Venders want us knowing that either way!

Did anyone else compare the 2 on that link????

:evil:
They are different in many ways. The intercooler piping will not bolt up whatsoever, the downpipes will not bolt up tot he Yaris cat, midpipe, ETC.
The only good thing about these kits is the fact that they have a nice turbo manifold that is reliable.

[DTM_Yaris]

Don't you have an automatic? I highly doubt a transmission built to propel a 106HP 2300# car will take the extra power and torque.
Yaris automatic trans will take up to 190FTLBS of torque. Above that it will depend on the abuse it will take daily.

[03Z33]

Techtom do list the NCP91 ECU as one that's compatible with their reprogramming tool. TRD also offer different variations for the Japan and Asian market Vitz Cup teams as well as for the OEM Toyota turbo models found in those markets.

I'm confident there will be reflash options for our stock ECU more readily available at some point. The main delay would be lack of a market/demand not complexity since many US based tuners have already proven that Canbus and other complexities in newer ECUs are only small hurdles in cracking and reprogramming the code.

[punch]

Don't you have an automatic? I highly doubt a transmission built to propel a 106HP 2300# car will take the extra power and torque.
I know what thats all about : )

[punch]

Yaris automatic trans will take up to 190FTLBS of torque. Above that it will depend on the abuse it will take daily.


may I ask how you know this?

[DTM_Yaris]

Techtom do list the NCP91 ECU as one that's compatible with their reprogramming tool. TRD also offer different variations for the Japan and Asian market Vitz Cup teams as well as for the OEM Toyota turbo models found in those markets.

I'm confident there will be reflash options for our stock ECU more readily available at some point. The main delay would be lack of a market/demand not complexity since many US based tuners have already proven that Canbus and other complexities in newer ECUs are only small hurdles in cracking and reprogramming the code.
I spoke with Tadashi personally, he has no will to mess with 2000+ toyota ecu's. Now if the supra comes out next year then maybe he will reconcider.

If TRD comes out with a supercharger or turbo option then a TRD reflash will help eliminate the barriers.
I hope that happens soon.
Unitl then AEM will have a unit out within months for many 4cyl. toyotas.
I agree however that demand holds back the tehnology not the CANBUS.
Just that at the present time no one has any tool available that will work with this particular ecu.

[DTM_Yaris]

may I ask how you know this?

We have been building a Time Attack Yaris. We originally wanted to go with an Auto. After sending the internals to one of our sponsors they came to the conclusion that it was limited to approx 190 Ftlbs.
We chose to go with the manual and cryo.

[spkrman]

Yaris automatic trans will take up to 190FTLBS of torque. Above that it will depend on the abuse it will take daily.

good to know :)

[spkrman]

We have been building a Time Attack Yaris. We originally wanted to go with an Auto. After sending the internals to one of our sponsors they came to the conclusion that it was limited to approx 190 Ftlbs.
We chose to go with the manual and cryo.

why not build up the auto?

There are options for auto TC's, gotta be a way to do something with the yaris trans.

[itsme]

how would the turbo charger effect the ecu heat wise? since the ecu is sitting in the engine bay like right above the headers (somewhat)

[calmcool]

Spkrman, How much horsepower do you have in your car? Do you know automatic trans don't pick up torque ! but it suck the power!

[eTiMaGo]

while we're on the subject...

From what I understand, when running a turbo, it is preferred as a basic tweak to richen the air-fuel mixture in order to reduce knocking.

Seeing as this ECU is so far quite hard to trick, would it stand to reason that a workaround, (when working with a low-boost turbo anyway), could be the usage of a higher octane fuel?

[largeorangefont]

while we're on the subject...

From what I understand, when running a turbo, it is preferred as a basic tweak to richen the air-fuel mixture in order to reduce knocking.

Seeing as this ECU is so far quite hard to trick, would it stand to reason that a workaround, (when working with a low-boost turbo anyway), could be the usage of a higher octane fuel?

No, unless you want to run C16 all the time, and there is still risks doing that. The car needs to be tuned for the turbo. Unfortunately c16 will kill the 02 sensors in short order.

You want to run around 11:1 AFR under open loop conditions. The car as stock is probably close to 13:1. Youll burn the motor down in short order without a tune.

[largeorangefont]

how would the turbo charger effect the ecu heat wise? since the ecu is sitting in the engine bay like right above the headers (somewhat)

I would build a heatshield arouund the ECU, and get all the hotside parts thermal coated.