Neg. camber machined rear spacers???

[MUSKOKA800]

Some time back someone proposed to sell angle cut rear spacers. I believe they were to come from Australia. :iono:
These were to be like those available from Penguin Garage (through Micro Image) but angle cut to create a set degree of negative rear camber. I was on stock wheels at the time so wasn't immediately interested but now I am.

Does anyone else recall, are they now available or who was that prospective vendor so I may contact them? Searching has yielded nothing. It was likely before the last site crash. :frown:

Any leads would be appreciated.

[jekqmb]

Some time back someone proposed to sell angle cut rear spacers. I believe they were to come from Australia. :iono:
These were to be like those available from Penguin Garage (through Micro Image) but angle cut to create a set degree of negative rear camber. I was on stock wheels at the time so wasn't immediately interested but now I am.

Does anyone else recall, are they now available or who was that prospective vendor so I may contact them? Searching has yielded nothing. It was likely before the last site crash. :frown:

Any leads would be appreciated.

Go to a machine shop and go custom

[Yaristeve]

What is the point of introducing negative camber on a solid axle rear?

If I am not mistaken, negative camber plates on independent suspension is to compensate for lack of camber gain in a turn, especially on MacPherson strut suspensions. A solid axle means the tires are at 90 degrees to the road at all times except if you hit a bump on one side or get airborne...

[WeeYari]

What is the point of introducing negative camber on a solid axle rear?


It is used in cases where a persons wheel/tire setup is such that a light rub occurs on hard dips. A little negative camber is often all that is required to tip the top of the wheel in enough to eliminate the rub.

[Bluevitz-rs]

What is the point of introducing negative camber on a solid axle rear?

If I am not mistaken, negative camber plates on independent suspension is to compensate for lack of camber gain in a turn, especially on MacPherson strut suspensions. A solid axle means the tires are at 90 degrees to the road at all times except if you hit a bump on one side or get airborne...

These cars don't have a solid axle, it's a twist beam. So there is a small change in camber and caster built in when you corner hard and there is a "twist" happening on the beam. Plus the toe change when load is introduced to the stock bushings.

[Viperoni]

What is the point of introducing negative camber on a solid axle rear?

If I am not mistaken, negative camber plates on independent suspension is to compensate for lack of camber gain in a turn, especially on MacPherson strut suspensions. A solid axle means the tires are at 90 degrees to the road at all times except if you hit a bump on one side or get airborne...

You don't gain any camber on the solid rear axle as it compresses... and you do want some.
The only way to compensate is to add static negative camber.

I actually posted in another forum about building a set of these, and possibly ones with a bit of toe out built in as well.

[Yaristeve]

You don't gain any camber on the solid rear axle as it compresses... and you do want some.

Why would you want to? With solid axles (ignoring for a moment the change, if any, in camber due to the twisting) the tires remain perpendicular to the road which will give maximum lateral traction. That is the goal of controling camber gain in independent suspension.

How much camber results from twisting? Can't be much. Although I suppose in theory the twist beam acts like a semi-trailing arm...

[severous01]

any more than about 1.5* and you're gonna be buying tires so often you wont want camber. i replace tires all the time with 7mm of tread left on the middle and outside but showing cords on the inside tread because BMW decides that 1*50' is what they want for camber in the rear for a 'perfect setup'.

any way, any more than 1*30' is gonna shred tires bad.

[Bluevitz-rs]

Stock on the rear of my car is 1°, and I have 1° up front as well. No abnormal tire wear from those settings.

[Viperoni]

Why would you want to? With solid axles (ignoring for a moment the change, if any, in camber due to the twisting) the tires remain perpendicular to the road which will give maximum lateral traction. That is the goal of controling camber gain in independent suspension.

How much camber results from twisting? Can't be much. Although I suppose in theory the twist beam acts like a semi-trailing arm...

I think it's better to account for bumps/road surface anomalies than to not.
Also, when a radial tire gets cornered hard, it can roll underitself; negative camber can help prevent that.

Finally, I've personally witnessed not only my car's rear tires, but also another fellow echo owner's rear tires have more outside wear than inside.
Obviously some negative camber would help even that out.

[Yaristeve]

Also, when a radial tire gets cornered hard, it can roll underitself; negative camber can help prevent that.

Finally, I've personally witnessed not only my car's rear tires, but also another fellow echo owner's rear tires have more outside wear than inside.
Obviously some negative camber would help even that out.

Interesting. Could your outside wear be due to underinflation? Or sidewalls that are too short and therefore stiff causing the inside edge to lift up?

It's just odd to me; I've never had uneven wear on my 79 Celica which is a solid rear axle (but RWD and 5-link). Anyhow, thanks for your answers and my apologies to the OP for hijacking his thread/question...

[ilikerice]

id like to add my 2cents on this, the OP hasnt let us know yet WHY he wants negative camber but he did mention that its cuz he has new wheels and was interested in this ofset spacer thing.

It is used in cases where a persons wheel/tire setup is such that a light rub occurs on hard dips. A little negative camber is often all that is required to tip the top of the wheel in enough to eliminate the rub.

negative camber does help with hard turns in the rear with our rear twist beam. not alot of negative, but a little bit. i autocross and i chalk my side walls and i got a laser temp gun. and i do notice a small amount of increase of temp on the ouside of the tire than the inside. only about 5-10 deg F. really nothing to worry about in my opinion. the front though with stock camber alighn was about 25-30deg diff.

but i think the OP obvious reason for doing negative camber is his wheels are rubbing i little bit. either he lowered it or went 17" wheels and i bigger tire then usual. or he got a lower offset and he wants that "wheel tuck" look which i think looks awesome on showcars but i laugh when i see them driving on the roads.. :laugh:

[Tamago]

the reason that camber spacers were never made is because:

under compression, camber on a trailing arm axle turns into toe-in.. so. if i were to develop camber shims for the stock-height yaris, and they're installed on a lowered yaris, a good portion of my camber would now turn into toe-in (the car is already toe-in from the factory). so, now your tires truly ARE gonna get shredded..

likewise, if i designed the camber spacers for a lowered yaris, and someone with a stock-height yaris installed them on their car, a lot of that camber would now be toe-out.. which is not a safe thing for the average car/average driver (toe out makes you spin out)..

this is why we (Penguin Garage) never developed camber spacers. as far as the kiwi who knocked off our design, i cannot answer as to why he never made any...

[MUSKOKA800]

Thanks Tomago and others for the information and discussion.

[Yaristeve]

the reason that camber spacers were never made is because:

under compression, camber on a trailing arm axle turns into toe-in.. so. if i were to develop camber shims for the stock-height yaris, and they're installed on a lowered yaris, a good portion of my camber would now turn into toe-in (the car is already toe-in from the factory). so, now your tires truly ARE gonna get shredded..

likewise, if i designed the camber spacers for a lowered yaris, and someone with a stock-height yaris installed them on their car, a lot of that camber would now be toe-out.. which is not a safe thing for the average car/average driver (toe out makes you spin out)..

this is why we (Penguin Garage) never developed camber spacers. as far as the kiwi who knocked off our design, i cannot answer as to why he never made any...

This makes sense; as the suspension rises (car drops) axle rotates, camber -> toe in.

So, why would there be toe-in designed in? I can see doing so for IRS because of the flexing of bushings results in toe-out under heavy braking. Is the Yaris rear axle relatively flexible to be able to twist? Would there be any advantage to instead design a four- or five-link rear axle conversion?

[Bluevitz-rs]

The toe in is there to keep joe-blow from loosing the rear end under heavy breaking and turning.

[Tamago]

you nailed it.

[Bluevitz-rs]

you nailed it.

http://www.artie.com/labor_day/arg-hammer-chasing-nail-right-207x165-url.gif

[OTB]

Just a follow up on tire wear comments....

If you're treating the car the way you should (burning through the twisties as often as possible) a few - degrees up front and -1.5 in the rear won't wear the tires out unevenly. If all you do is drive in a straight line, don't bother with a performance alignment, and you should probably consider a vehicle that's more fun in a straight line.

[Viperoni]

the reason that camber spacers were never made is because:

under compression, camber on a trailing arm axle turns into toe-in.. so. if i were to develop camber shims for the stock-height yaris, and they're installed on a lowered yaris, a good portion of my camber would now turn into toe-in (the car is already toe-in from the factory). so, now your tires truly ARE gonna get shredded..

likewise, if i designed the camber spacers for a lowered yaris, and someone with a stock-height yaris installed them on their car, a lot of that camber would now be toe-out.. which is not a safe thing for the average car/average driver (toe out makes you spin out)..

this is why we (Penguin Garage) never developed camber spacers. as far as the kiwi who knocked off our design, i cannot answer as to why he never made any...

I understand.

The question is, how much toe in actually happens?

Doing some more research on the topic, I came across this article: http://www.worldautosteel.org/uploaded/ULSAS_EngRpt_Twistbeam_Design.pdf through a wikipedia link, and it turns out that *that* twist beam design gets camber gain through compression (1.5* at 1inch), along with very mild toe in (0.15* at 1inch).

It also gets very mild toe-out during extension .25* at 1 inch and starts going positive camber as well; 1.5* at 1inch.

See pages 168-169.
Their suspension design is different than ours though.


So the question really is; what does our suspension do as is?

[Tamago]

get off your ass and take some measurements for me ;) i don't own a yaris lol

[Viperoni]

get off your ass and take some measurements for me ;) i don't own a yaris lol

Neither do I! :P

[Tamago]

you can buy onetongarage cambered spacers for your echo... if he's still in business that is..