ABS brakes / Would you buy a Yaris without them?

[3cyltrbo]

Here is the situation that I'm thinking over and over about.

I had a 2005 Echo Hatchback from Sept 2004 to April 2008..................
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/3cyltrbo/echo%20part%20out/DSCF0082ver2-1.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/3cyltrbo/theVitz.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/3cyltrbo/roling3resize.jpg

During that time I only ever drove it from April to October, so all it ever saw was dry pavement and rain. It had ABS, but I can honestly say I think it only ever cycled the ABS 5 or 6 times in the 4 years I owned it.

The Daily Driver I've been driving since then (that I traded the Echo in on .....................
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/3cyltrbo/CSX%20Type%20s/IMG_9684.jpg
...................has both ABS / EBD (electronic brakeforce distribution) / VSA (vehicle stability assist) combined with almost 12" front rotors and factory 17's with sticky michelins. In that car, the ABS basically never ever cycles in the summer or even much in the rain (or snow for that matter)

Now I'm looking at getting back into a Yaris.

I've found some remaining 2010 2dr hatchbacks that dealers are basically throwing at me (0% financing AND massive discounts on top)

99% of them are the level that doesn't have ABS (although some of them do have 6 airbags).

Most of them are weirdly optioned 2010 CE 2dr with LE package (4 speakers / mudflaps / rear wiper) and then a $285 option that includes the 6airbags.

The Yaris would only ever get driven between April and October (dry pavement and occassional rain) and I'd have aftermarket wheels at some point.

For what its worth, I've been driving for 22 years / I've autocrossed several cars / done track days / taken advanced driving courses from BMW and Mercedes and have a former racecar driver/builder as a father (all of which is a way of saying I'm not the average ham-fisted driver half asleep at the wheel while texting in one hand and drinking a coffee in the other)

I'm trying to get a handle on all aspects (resale value / safety when others are driving the car / the odd time that I'd get caught in a compromising situation etc....)

there are a few remaining 2dr hatchs with the LE convenience package but the dealers that have them aren't being as aggressive to sell them and they would cost about $2k more (they also have AC which I could care less about).

All your input would be appreciated.

Thanks

Will

p.s., anyone looking to buy a 2008 Acura CSX Type S - shoot me a PM

[Yaristeve]

If it were possible to get a car, any car, without ABS, I would. Unfortunately, the nannies have won this one... too... :frown:

[Flipper_1938]

I do not like the ABS on my 2010 sedan. In the snow, it kicks in way too soon.

I would look for one without ABS.

[RedRide]

Personally, I never liked ABS.
However, I must admitt that the ABS on the Yaris in not that bad at all and I do not dislike them.

IMO, if your Yaris ABS are "kicking in" too soon", you are applying too much pressure on the pedal.
On my Yaris, the only way I can "test" the ABS is to purposely try to lock them up... even when driving in snow.
Otherwise, I would never know that I even had ABS. :smile:

[DebbyM46227]

I wish mine didn't have ABS after reading on this forum about the sensors corroding and being very expensive to replace.

[tk1971]

I specifically went looking for a non-ABS LB 2 door. Following that thought, I specifically didn't want power windows / locks either.

My daily driver has to be the ultimate in reliability and I don't want to spend any time dealing with electronic things like ABS and window motors.

Just oil changes and tire rotations is what I'm expecting to do.

I even pulled off my hubcaps because I find it more difficult to add air in my tires with them on.

[Lil Abner]

I don't like ABS on any car. My 2000 Celica GT-S, I purchased without ABS and was glad. My 2009 HB came with ABS, and I wish I could disable it!

[Happy Little Pony]

I've never actually owned a car with four wheel anti-lock brakes, so I don't miss them. But If I had a wife or kids who were driving my car also, I would be more comfortable if my Yaris had them.

But having said that, if they're offering you a really good deal that will save you hundreds of dollars, that's pretty hard to pass up.

[Antara]

I have been driving for over 40 years without ABS brakes. If you drive according to the road conditions you dont need them.

[3cyltrbo]

thank you everyone for your input, I appreciate hearing first hand from owners

I'll let you know how it turns out

W

[bronsin]

ABS will never deploy if you are driving appropriately to the road conditions. Quite possibly it CONTRIBUTES to the accident rate by making people think they are Superman driving the Safe Car that Cannot Have An Accident.

Electronic nannies indeed!

Now if we could just get rid of cell phones the "adult pacifer"!!!

[MadMax]

I don't have ABS on my Yaris or my Jeep, and I've never needed it.

However, I do have it on our Honda Odyssey minivan which the wife drives and the kids ride in. I like the fact that it's on there.

ABS is good for panic braking, but an experienced driver can live without them.

It's just a matter of deciding if you're "experienced" enough to live without them!

Cheers! M2

[SailDesign]

I'd prefer (bold, italic, underlined) a car without it, but it hasn't hampered my driving at all.

[RABYARIS]

It would be no PROBLAMO, for me, to drive a Yaris without ABS. In fact, on my XBOX 360 last night I was driving a BMW M3 with ABS and the car was all over the track when I was braking.

[mbt109]

Pleasa can some body expl. why not?

[Flipper_1938]

Pleasa can some body expl. why not?

When ABS activates, they are ANTI-STOP BRAKES.

In the snow, they can be downright scarey (interfere with braking far more than is necessary). My previous car, was a 2001 Echo without ABS. The brakes had very good stopping ability and were very predicatable.

With the ABS on my current Yaris, you never know if the brakes are going to be there when you really need to stop.

[bronsin]

That is so true: snow with ABS = suprise no brakes! Without ABS you know to get off the gas pedal and pump the brakes. Also use the hand brake going down hill. You go SLOW. With ABS you expect the miricle lifesaver to do all the work. Well it doesnt!

[MadMax]

Pleasa can some body expl. why not?

Because the system operates on a premise of reducing the brake pressure applied while it detects slippage/skidding/sliding. An experienced driver will keep the pressure on to a point just above that.

For an inexperienced driver it overcomes their deficiency in skill to do this.

Another problem is that it causes what is called "risk compensation," by which asserts drivers adapt to the safety benefit of ABS by driving more aggressively or relying on it too much.

There was a study done (http://psyc.queensu.ca/target/chapter07.html) with Munich, Germany taxi cabs that concluded drivers of ABS-equipped cabs were taking more risks assuming that ABS would take care of them, while the non-ABS drivers drove more carefully since ABS would not be there to help in case of a dangerous situation. A similar study in Oslo, Norway found similar results.

But for "most people," ABS is a good thing; because "most people" cannot drive worth a shit!

Cheers! M2

[10peep]

WOW!!! I figured that I would be the only one on here opposed to ABS. You'll be fine. My 2002 Tacoma doesnt have it and I regularly tow with it etc. Plus, in the snow I feel MUCH more in control of my breaking. I hate to disagree with whomever said that it would bring a higher resale value but I dont totally agree with that. Most car buyers nowadays arent like us. They dont care about anything but what theyve got to pay every month. The car could come without a windshield and they wouldnt even notice. Not to mention, if it were really that big of a safety asset (instead of a government mandate) do you really think that Toyota would once again want to throw their a$$ on the line and be viewed as a manufacturer of "unsafe" automobiles? I almost believe that this car is too light for ABS anyway, once the dry straight line pavement disappears anyway.

[RedRide]

FWIW......
The Yaris ABS do no prevent the bakes from locking up or hinder the braking in anyway.

They simply just only allow the bakes to be locked up intemitantly.

So, if you never want the brakes to lock up and drive acordingly, you will never know you have ABS. There is absolutly no pedal pulsating, etc.

Saying you would never need ABS is like saying you will never need seat belts, air bags, power steering, bumpers, etc because you are a good driver.
No one can control road conditions or other drivers on the road.

I'm a "stick and rudder" type driver and never liked ABS but, the ABS on the Yaris is a non issue for me.

[Flipper_1938]

FWIW......
The Yaris ABS do no prevent the bakes from locking up or hinder the braking in anyway.

They simply just only allow the bakes to be locked up intemitantly.

So, if you never want the brakes to lock up and drive acordingly, you will never know you have ABS. There is absolutly no pedal pulsating, etc.

Saying you would never need ABS is like saying you will never need seat belts, air bags, power steering, bumpers, etc because you are a good driver.
No one can control road conditions or other drivers on the road.

I'm a "stick and rudder" type driver and never liked ABS but, the ABS on the Yaris is a non issue for me.

Based on your comments, you have never experienced the yaris ABS do its thing.

IT DOES SIGNIFICANTLY HINDER THE BRAKING AND THE BRAKE PEDAL DOES PULSATE/PUSH BACK.

[RedRide]

Based on your comments, you have never experienced the yaris ABS do its thing.

IT DOES SIGNIFICANTLY HINDER THE BRAKING AND THE BRAKE PEDAL DOES PULSATE/PUSH BACK.

My pedal does not pulsate all.
Yes, I have definately initiated the ABS a few times to check them out and have fully experience their function.

Yes, it hinders your braking in the respect that it prevents brakes from locking up steadily.

I don't drive routinely to puposely lock up my brakes.
If one desire a car to track, then perhaps a Yaris is a bad choice to begin with.

[Flipper_1938]

My pedal does not pulsate all.
Yes, I have definately initiated the ABS a few times to check them out and have fully experience their function.

Yes, it hinders your braking in the respect that it prevents brakes from locking up steadily.

I don't drive routinely to puposely lock up my brakes.
If one desire a car to track, then perhaps a Yaris is a bad choice to begin with.

I don't abuse my car either.

In low traction situations (snow or ice), it is awful. That is the only condition where has been an issue....but it has been a bad enough of a problem that I would avoid buying another Yaris with ABS if I had to replace my current car.

[bronsin]

My 09 makes a cracking sound at the wheels when the ABS deploys. The pedal does vibrate some also. I wouldnt call it pulsing.

[RedRide]

I'm a bit confused when some say that their brake pedels pulsate, etc when mine doesn't exhibit any of these problems.
Perhaps some have ABS that is not working properly?

BTW......when the ABS brakes do lock up, they will intermittently unlock and lock a few times a second and maby this is what some are interpeting as "pedel pulsating".

[10peep]

..........some say that their brake pedels pulsate, etc when mine doesn't exhibit any of these problems.
Perhaps some have ABS that is not working properly?........

Lol, on every single vehicle that Ive ever owned with ABS (Ive owned 28 vehicles in the last 4 years, MOST of them with ABS), the pedal pulsates when ABS engages. Heres a couple SMALL excerpts from articles that I found on the subject...

"Expect noise and vibration in the brake pedal when your anti-lock brakes are in use. These sensations tell you the ABS system is working properly."

"ABS - Antilocking Braking System prevents the wheels from locking causing the vehicle to either slide or skid out. The system pulsates the pads or shoes of the brakes providing the wheels to still rotate at a slowing rate, maintaining traction and steering control during hard braking.
During hard braking the break pedal with pulsate rapidly - that is the ABS activating. Just keep firm pressure on the pedal and the car with stop in an reasonable stopping distance."

Etc...it goes on and on and on. Not trying to be a jerk, but perhaps it is YOU that have ABS that is not functioning properly, lol.

[RedRide]

^^^^

......(Ive owned 28 vehicles in the last 4 years, MOST of them with ABS), the pedal pulsates .........

Yeah, most but, not all.

[Yaristeve]

^^^^



Yeah, most but, not all.

I think he meant most of his cars had ABS but all of his cars that did have ABS had pulsating brakes. Early ABS systems were horrible; the brake pedal would actually bounce up and down noticeably. New systems now just cause the pedal to buzz or vibrate.

[10peep]

I think he meant most of his cars had ABS but all of his cars that did have ABS had pulsating brakes. Early ABS systems were horrible; the brake pedal would actually bounce up and down noticeably. New systems now just cause the pedal to buzz or vibrate.

^^^:thumbsup:

[Slummy]

If I had it to do over I would opt to not have ABS.
It's not the function that bothers me, it's the problems that may crop up. The last two winters my ABS and break light have come on after heavy snows. The day after the light came on it went off, but from what I've read it's a pricey fix.

[Blue Y job]

ABS is great. But only if you have great ABS. If it's really crude and comes in too early, then it's not desireable, if it's well designed then it's an aid to your driving fun. At least from my experience. But my Yari doesn't have ABS, even though I would have preferred it, but it's not a dealbreaker.

[Mikeey01nzl]

I think ABS is an important safety feature.

The Vitz is my wifes daily driver, drop kids off to the schools and work etc.
With ABS in ours I have some confidence when she panic brakes she might stand a fighting chance of swerveing to avoid something.

[Blue Y job]

Exactly. That's what ABS is about, helping the average driver. And if it's well designed, it can help out the sporting driver, unless he/she is hardcore, I want to to everything myself.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Flipper_1938]

Under most conditions it is a great idea. On slick roads, it makes the car almost undriveable and is downright dangerous when ABS prematurely activates.

My Echo was great in the snow; it would go anywhere. The Yaris needs to be parked until EVERYTHING melts.

[Yaristeve]

Slummy: "Pricey" is right. The ABS actuator failed on my mom's 1995 Accord. $1,000 to replace and this was a relatively unsophisticated system.

Blue Y: I disagree that ABS adds to the driving fun. I've posted in another thread how the ABS in my 2004 IS300 killed my perfectly balanced braking. The tires were humming at max threshold when all of a sudden the ABS kicked in and reduced the braking force (felt the front end come up). ABS may be good in uneven traction situations, but it sucks in the dry for sure and probably in the rain as well.

I am a little undecided about ABS in a FF car, though. With so much weight up front and even more weight due to weight transfer under heavy braking, it might be a good idea for the rears...

[carnageehw]

I'm a driving instructor, and I can promise you that in my 113,000 kms I've braked more with the ABS on than anyone else here. In fact, with every student we practice slamming on the brakes at 60 and 80 kms/hour. That's a LOT of braking.

A few things:

The Pedal WILL PULSATE back at you when you slam on the brakes. But so what? It's not a big deal when you know what that what the ABS does.

In good conditions the abs will only come on with hard braking at about 60km/h, or 40-ishmph. Drive well and you likely never need the abs to come on.

In the snow, I can see ABS being annoying. ABS brakes won't work as well on loose surfaces, and the extra control might be nice.

Other than that one area, I wouldn't want a car without ABS. They work great and studies show they stop you sooner on a dry road. Yes, you can pulse your brakes (threashold braking) but in a real emergency, I'd rather focus on where I need to move the car to and not waste time and energy thinking about not locking the brakes.

I don't really think ABD is a "nanny" any more than power steering is a "nanny".

[SAV912]

My girlfriend's '08 Yaris does not have ABS. My '09 does. And I have to say, I'm glad I don't drive her car daily. ABS is the one thing that I am okay with the nanny wars winning. Not because I personally like it (though I do), but because I know how the rest of society as a majority drives. Panic situation, hammer the brakes. No ABS = lock up and slide into whatever you're trying to avoid anyway. I wouldn't expect the average American driver to modulate threshold braking in panic situations.

You'd think almost every person here on YW was a seasoned race car driver with much disposable income and superhuman skills though, with the way everyone talks about not ever needing 'electronic nonsense'.

-C

[Blue Y job]

Yaristeve: I think for a 16 year old car I would either bypass the ABS or put in a used part rather than dump a grand on it.
And I agree that a poorly designed system could interfere with driving fun.
But I'm stickin to my guns on it helping with driving fun. My old 99 Firebird Formula had a Bosch ABS system and you could be blasting down a tight wet (ooh, tight and wet!) mountain road and be on and off the brakes and it just worked great. Not heavy handed, just enough to keep the wheels rolling.

[Flipper_1938]

ABS + VSC = No Fun Allowed

[RedRide]

I'm confused. Do some of you guys actually want to lock up you brakes on ice and snow? :confused: :iono:

Personally I have never had the Yaris ABS kick in (on its own) when driing on ice and snow.
The only times it ever did is when I purposely locked up the brakes on snow just to see how the ABS "worked"

[Yaristeve]

Yaristeve: I think for a 16 year old car I would either bypass the ABS or put in a used part rather than dump a grand on it.


It happened back in about 2000 or so, so it was only 5 years old at the time.

[10peep]

I'm a driving instructor, and I can promise you that in my 113,000 kms I've braked more with the ABS on than anyone else here. In fact, with every student we practice slamming on the brakes at 60 and 80 kms/hour. That's a LOT of braking.

A few things:

The Pedal WILL PULSATE back at you when you slam on the brakes. But so what? It's not a big deal when you know what that what the ABS does.

In good conditions the abs will only come on with hard braking at about 60km/h, or 40-ishmph. Drive well and you likely never need the abs to come on.

In the snow, I can see ABS being annoying. ABS brakes won't work as well on loose surfaces, and the extra control might be nice.

Other than that one area, I wouldn't want a car without ABS. They work great and studies show they stop you sooner on a dry road. Yes, you can pulse your brakes (threashold braking) but in a real emergency, I'd rather focus on where I need to move the car to and not waste time and energy thinking about not locking the brakes.

I don't really think ABD is a "nanny" any more than power steering is a "nanny".

^^^:clap: This is exactly correct. Perfectly stated (except for the mis-spelling of ABS @ the end :biggrin:) and the argument should end right here.


My girlfriend's '08 Yaris does not have ABS. My '09 does. And I have to say, I'm glad I don't drive her car daily. ABS is the one thing that I am okay with the nanny wars winning. Not because I personally like it (though I do), but because I know how the rest of society as a majority drives. Panic situation, hammer the brakes. No ABS = lock up and slide into whatever you're trying to avoid anyway. I wouldn't expect the average American driver to modulate threshold braking in panic situations.

You'd think almost every person here on YW was a seasoned race car driver with much disposable income and superhuman skills though, with the way everyone talks about not ever needing 'electronic nonsense'.

-C

No offense but this^^^=:bs:. This sounds like a driver with not too much experience in different types of cars or any type of performance driving. I dont have any clue why it is that people want to rely on computers to do EVERYTHING for them! Hell, 15 years ago hardly ANYTHING had ABS and people made it just fine! Like I said, my 2002 Tacoma does NOT have ABS and Ive towed 4,000 lbs with it and had to slam on my brakes @ 65mph. It did JUST FINE. A car company, especially one like Toyota would NOT engineer a vehicle WITHOUT ABS that would cause a driver to loose complete control over their vehicle in an emergency situation!

[Blue Y job]

In the wide variety of conditions and situations that we drive in, I'm guessing 90% of people would be able to stop shorter, and perhaps more importantly, continue to be able to steer, as long as they mash the pedal hard enough to engage the ABS.
It is mostly irrelevant, as most new cars already have ABS.

[carnageehw]

I'm confused. Do some of you guys actually want to lock up you brakes on ice and snow? :confused: :iono:

Personally I have never had the Yaris ABS kick in (on its own) when driing on ice and snow.
The only times it ever did is when I purposely locked up the brakes on snow just to see how the ABS "worked"
Locking up in loose surfaces (snow, gravel) can help your stopping ability in a straight line. The lock up causes the tires to dig deeper into the loose surface, which can stop you sooner.

Wheel lock on a dry road simply causes the tires to skid OVER the surface, while with ABS, the spinning of the tires helps to grip the ground better.

[carnageehw]

No offense but this^^^=:bs:. This sounds like a driver with not too much experience in different types of cars or any type of performance driving. I dont have any clue why it is that people want to rely on computers to do EVERYTHING for them!

Are you glad you have a gas gauge? How about power steering? Or codes to find out what's wrong with your car when the engine light comes on? Do you drive an automatic?

How about PVR's for TV shows? Facebook for connecting with old friends? Word processing? Photo and video editing? Do you have a digital camera?

You can't point at someone who likes ABS and say "why do you want computers to do EVERYTHING for you!????" It's a total strawman argument. Computers can be very, VERY useful, especially with ABS, which is designed to keep you focused on steering away from something in an emergency.

[Yaristeve]

Are you glad you have a gas gauge?
Take it or leave it
How about power steering?
No
Or codes to find out what's wrong with your car when the engine light comes on?
No
Do you drive an automatic?
No
How about PVR's for TV shows?
No cable
Facebook for connecting with old friends?
No facebook
Word processing? No (now I have to do my own typing instead of giving it to a secretary)
Photo and video editing?
No
Do you have a digital camera?
Yes, but I hate how digital pictures look so for interesting pictures I use film.

Yes, I am a Luddite.

[onizuka]

Buying an used Yaris with ABS is asking for trouble. Its ABS sensor fails prematurely in snowy driving conditions. There is a long thread about this and it is a very hot topic:

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11533

[SAV912]

Yes, I am a Luddite.

That's fine. You're also in the minority, and there's nothing you can do about it. :rolleyes:

Society is changing. For the better? Debateable. But in this particular situation, it's how cars are built now to SERVE THE MAJORITY, and the bottom line is that a majority of the public is better off with ABS.

I don't agree with traction control and stability control and all that other stuff as standard, which is why I specifically hunted down an '09 model year, as it was the only way I was going to guarantee ABS and not the other stuff. Does it kill my family that other Yarisiesiesiesisei's are available with stability control and traction control on a car that barely breaches 100 bhp? No. Do I care if other people DO prefer it? 0%. Not even a little bit.


No offense but this^^^=:bs:.
Exactly how is it bullshit? Your one single situation in one single Tacoma does not measure the billions of people in the world as a whole. Just because YOU don't think you need ABS does not mean that the general public does not need ABS. Why has Toyota made it standard on '09+ cars in NA? Because they are in the business to make money. The more simplified they can have a car built, the more money they can make. End. Of. Story.


-C

[Bluevitz-rs]

I don't get this whole debate. If you don't like ABS, pull the fuse out and drive your car. If you don't like Power steering, pull out the relay or take the belt off.

It's really just that easy folks!

[bronsin]

I don't get this whole debate. If you don't like ABS, pull the fuse out and drive your car. If you don't like Power steering, pull out the relay or take the belt off.

It's really just that easy folks!


Unfortunately you have to pay for those things up front. If we could just get T to delete them and charge us less...

[Bluevitz-rs]

ok, why use a calculator when you can calculate longhand on a piece of paper? Because a calculator is faster. It's the same with ABS. Sure you can pulse you brake peddle after you realize you've looked your wheel, but the computer can do it faster.

Why do you think F1 regulates the use of ABS and Traction control (Launch control)? Because it makes the car faster to drive. It lets technology do things faster than a human can ever react and move.

[Bluevitz-rs]

Well, I ice raced for 3 year and can tell you that all those "hindrances" make you go faster around the track. Argue it all you want.

[3cyltrbo]

I didn't mean to start all this debate

sorry for the drama that started

W

[carnageehw]

pI mean if your ABS is constantly kicking in , maybe you should ask yourself :"what am i doing wrong?" i

I agree with this, even though it's kind of besides the point.

To whomever that said:" Do you have facebook/gas gauge/video editing/etc". You cannot compare technology that is used by an individual as a tool (facebook, OBD codes, pvr's) to technology that effectively takes the user out of the loop (traction control, abs, esc). Once a machine makes the decisions for the user it is no longer a tool but a replacement and the user becomes neutered. A gas gauge doesn't make a decision for you it merely informs you that your fuel level is low, it is a sensor and not a brain.
First off, it was a response to someone who said "why do you want computers to do everything for you?". Computers do many things for us, and are usually very helpful. So deriding someone who likes ABS as someone who needs a computers help is a strawman argument.

What you are saying is in fact a much better argument, in that the ABS takes control away from the user. However, all ABS does is prevent the wheels from locking. Something most people don't want to happen. When you need ABS, it's in an emergency situation, and most people (myself included) don't want to have to think about the exact threshold of when the brakes may or may not lock up. There's more important things to do.

You might be an awesome driver who never needs the ABS. I never, ever need it when I'm driving by myself. But what that means is that we don't have the practice of feeling the threshold. Honestly, how many times do you practice braking as hard as you can without the wheels locking up?

Fact is, in normal road conditions (re: no loose surfaces) studies have shown ABS to be a faster way of stopping your car than trying to not lock the brakes yourself. And in an emergency, why the hell would you even want to THINK about how to manipulate your foot?

[carnageehw]

Electronic nannies = no skills required and in a lot of cases no brain required

Now please don't take it as an insult , it wasn't meant like one. All I'm saying is that the nannies won't teach you anything about driving, basically you don't need to think what could happen
As someone who teaches driving for a living there is no way in hell I ever....ever let people rely on the nannies.

Much like computers for spell check, GCI for action movies or autotune for music, ABS, ESC etc can be helpful tools, but when relied upon too much....it's disaster.

The problem isn't with the electronic aids, it's with people who rely on them too much. As always, good information is the best tool.

[Yaristeve]

Fact is, in normal road conditions (re: no loose surfaces) studies have shown ABS to be a faster way of stopping your car than trying to not lock the brakes yourself.

Based on my experience, I just cannot agree with this "fact". On a dry, clean surface, the ABS in my Lexus kicked in as soon as it sensed some slipping. Threshold braking requires slight slippage to take maximum advantage of both rolling and sliding friction. That is the nature of rubber tires.

At the time, my tires were NOT locked up and screeching and sliding; they were, however, still turning and "singing". Yet, the ABS kicked in (I felt the buzzing in the brake pedal) and the car suddenly felt like it was actually accelerating and the front end came up.

If you ride motorcycles, you learn that you don't just grab a handful of brakes. Hard braking requires you to gradually but very quickly build pressure. The same applies for cars. Yes, if you all you know how to do is stomp on the brakes, you will lock up your wheels and ABS is for you. But if you gradually (but quickly) build pressure, weight transfer to the front will increase your front tire traction and you will stop faster than an ABS equipped car on a dry clean surface. And this takes practice, practice, practice.

And in an emergency, why the hell would you even want to THINK about how to manipulate your foot? .

I think you're missing PK198105's point: if you approach driving the way you should be, you shouldn't find yourself in "an emergency". And in the event you get sucked into an emergency, practicing proper driving technique makes avoidance almost second-nature. As others have said, all these nanny tools have made it too easy for people to become lazy and not think about what they are doing and have become a hindrance to people who actually enjoy driving well...

[SAV912]

I think you're missing PK198105's point: if you approach driving the way you should be, you shouldn't find yourself in "an emergency".

The problem therein rises that not everyone approaches driving the way they 'should' be. That's when emergency situations arise, and not everyone is seasoned enough to get out without a scratch every single time. It just isn't in the cards.

-C

[MadMax]

I didn't mean to start all this debate

sorry for the drama that started

W

Not your fault, you asked a valid question, a few posted some reasonable replies, then for some reason it turned into a debate.

Again, ABS is an excellent safety feature for the vast majority of drivers. In emergency situations, it can and will slow down vehicles in some conditions such as wet or icy roads. In a panic stop, it allows the driver to stomp on the brakes and concentrate on steering the vehicle.

That said, it has its downsides. It is costly to repair, and those in northern climates that use salt on icy roads seem to be more susceptible to it having issues. It can also cause an over-reliance on the system, with some drivers driving more aggressively in anticipation that it will save them in every situation. That is simply not the case.

For the majority, it is a good feature to have. Some of us can live without it, but that doesn't mean it's not a useful thing to have on your car. I wouldn't specifically not buy a car if it had it, but I will also not not buy one because it doesn't. It just happens that two of my vehicles (my Yaris and my Jeep) don't have it. Actually, if I had to make a choice I would much rather not have it on the Jeep, as offroad it is less desirable than it is on.

Cheers! M2

[Mikeey01nzl]

even wiping our own butt.

Yep the've done that too :eek:

http://nomadnesstv.com/storage/japan-toilet.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=129063264464 5

[RedRide]

In the early days of mandated seat belts, the common mantra from the ignorant was "I know how to drive, why do I need seat belts"?
Some always fail to factor in other drivers etc.
Some things never change.

I maintain that if you really do know how to drive, your ABS will never kick in during daily driving even on snow
In a sudden, emergency situation, who honestly uses a high degree of finesse on the brake pedel?

[bronsin]

I maintain that if you really do know how to drive, your ABS will never kick in during daily driving even on snow
In a sudden, emergency situation, who honestly uses a high degree of finesse on the brake pedel?

I agree wholeheartedly. But those who advocate ABS on motorcycles claim in a panic situation the impulse is to grab a handfull of brakes and swerve. This puts the bike on the ground immediately. Which can be a good or bad thing. In my experience it IS true you tend to do that. Im not sure ABS allows a biker to brake and swerve simultanously. But it might be a benefit.

Cars dont need it certainly. ABS is just an insane mindset forstered off on us by manufacturers, statasticians, and the government. And they arent stopping at ABS either. These morons believe they can make cars that avoid accidents all by themselves. They are completely out of their minds and no one can stop them unless no body buts their shit.

[MadMax]

Don't blame the automobile manufacturers, blame the lousy drivers that think they can do everything (eat, talk on the phone, etc) instead of actually driving! They are the ones causing the development of all of this safety equipment.

By the way, as always noted on Top Gear, if you want to see what safety features cars will have in ten years' time, look towards the Mercedes S class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_S-Class#Safety). It has a history of being the first to have devices that will ultimately end up on all cars, such as crumple zones, three-point seatbelts, pre-accident seatbelt pretensioners, collapsible steering column, strengthened occupant cells, ABS, driver's airbag supplemental restraint system, and a preemptive safety system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Safe). It is considered one of the safest cars on the road!

Cheers! M2

[carnageehw]

i agree with you but most driving schools teach you to pass a driving test not actually what to do when things go wrong or how to spot and avoid putting yourself in a situation that requires you to rely on the electronics. I agree with you completely, and am proud to say I don't work for a school like that. My company is constantly on the government to shut down schools that are just in it to get some quick money and not teach you anything.



What I could accept is cars being equipped with them standard but give the driver the possibility to take them off without having to resort to pulling fuses, bypassing or other things that could have been easily solved with a switch. It would not be a bad idea I suppose.


Same thing with the TPMS system, if you don't do a walk-around before getting in your car you are not following the proper driving technique.
Something we teach!

At the point when you need to have everything laid out before you, you simply become a passenger and not a driver, thats my mentality.
The only reason I don't get the hate for ABS (I am all for the hate for parallel park assists, rear cameras and blind spot sensors, etc) is that the ABS does something that you WANT to happen. You don't want the brakes to lock up. Yes, if you drive well, you never need it. But if it ever happens (no one's perfect) I kind of want the computer to let me know when the brakes are locking.

Of course, if the ABS comes on when it shouldn't like another poster said, that's a problem as well.

[Zaphod]

I agree wholeheartedly. But those who advocate ABS on motorcycles claim in a panic situation the impulse is to grab a handfull of brakes and swerve. This puts the bike on the ground immediately. Which can be a good or bad thing. In my experience it IS true you tend to do that. Im not sure ABS allows a biker to brake and swerve simultanously. But it might be a benefit.

Cars dont need it certainly. ABS is just an insane mindset forstered off on us by manufacturers, statasticians, and the government. And they arent stopping at ABS either. These morons believe they can make cars that avoid accidents all by themselves. They are completely out of their minds and no one can stop them unless no body buts their shit.
My bike is too old so I don't have ABS, but there are definitely times that I wish it did. I've never laid it down by giving it too much rear brake, but I certainly have been close. I thought for sure I was either going down or hitting a car, but then I just decided that both were horrible options due to the nature of the accident in front of me so I just got it together and balanced those brakes perfectly for a stop that almost sent me over the bike :smile:

I was a new rider then so admittedly I was still figuring things out, but I still find there are times ABS would be nice ... and I could definitely see it more for the bigger bikes as it seems to me like you can feel it faster and make you corrections much more quickly on a lighter more responsive bike.

[Zaphod]

In the early days of mandated seat belts, the common mantra from the ignorant was "I know how to drive, why do I need seat belts"?
Some always fail to factor in other drivers etc.
Some things never change.

I maintain that if you really do know how to drive, your ABS will never kick in during daily driving even on snow
In a sudden, emergency situation, who honestly uses a high degree of finesse on the brake pedel?
You make some very excellent points. If you drive right, you should never even feel them kick on.

Sure there are things that one can't really anticipate or avoid easily, and we're all human and prone to make a mistake here and there.

I will say one thing though, I don't know if finesse is the right word, but I do prefer to focus on all of the details, brake, gas, clutch steering, etc ... in emergency situations as it traditionally calms me and focuses my attention on what needs to be done.

Having said that though, you'll never hear me complain that my Yaris has ABS because I've really only activated it being purposefully sloppy out of curiosity. Though that doesn't mean it could never happen in an emergency situation :smile:

[bronsin]

My bike is too old so I don't have ABS, but there are definitely times that I wish it did. I've never laid it down by giving it too much rear brake, but I certainly have been close. I thought for sure I was either going down or hitting a car, but then I just decided that both were horrible options due to the nature of the accident in front of me so I just got it together and balanced those brakes perfectly for a stop that almost sent me over the bike :smile:

I was a new rider then so admittedly I was still figuring things out, but I still find there are times ABS would be nice ... and I could definitely see it more for the bigger bikes as it seems to me like you can feel it faster and make you corrections much more quickly on a lighter more responsive bike.

As someone who has ridden bikes for 40 years, I have learned the biggest piece of the safety puzzle is YOU, not some gadget on the bike. One is only as safe as he (or she) allows themselves to be.

[carnageehw]

As someone who has ridden bikes for 40 years, I have learned the biggest piece of the safety puzzle is YOU, not some gadget on the bike. One is only as safe as he (or she) allows themselves to be.

No one is arguing otherwise.