To boost/improve Yaris, or move on....?

[OTB]

So I'd appreciate your input on this subject, and especially those of you who took the turbo plunge.

My goal: a reliable lightweight car for street transportation that will still give cooper S cars a run for their money in street class time attack. I have a MR-S race car, and don't have intentions of making my street car into a very competitive car. I do, however have a goal of making it road course worthy (preventing oil and fuel starvation, coolant overtemps, brake fade.)

I own: 2007 Yaris USA 3-door with no options, good quality springs, struts/shocks, rear swaybar. I have owned some much "nicer" cars in my day, but I'd have to say this is probably the best street car I've owned. It is a blast to drive, but obviously with a couple limitations. 1) power-I don't need a ton of it, but it doesn't even have enough power to maintain throttle through corners on the track. 2)suspension-front strut tower mounting (or lack thereof) and the rear end "is what it is"

I used to own a turbo cooper s (stock with good suspension) that my buddy and I would both drive in different time attack events, and we did ok. The car was lots of fun, surprisingly strong, and a pain to work on. I unfortunately had a incident with a couple deer and no more cooper.

My question is....to meet my goals above, do I pursue another cooper, or make the yaris a better weapon?

Proposed Yaris plan: Zage turbo kit to produce approx 150hp for some reliability. I think most guys tune for more boost/power than that, but I'm not interested in pushing the limits of tuning and 1nz strength. Better suspension (have custom lower than MI springs made for my tokico reds, or go to damping adjustable coilovers). Limited slip. I bought my Yaris as a salvage (but actually tip top, just a front bumper cover replacement really) for a good price. Zage kit + management (FIC and PnP harness) + tuning + monitoring gauges + lsd+unplanned BS in reality will cost about $4500. Do I have to kiss my front and rear oem brakes goodbye?

Potential other cars: another turbo mini, rsx-s (great setup but hard to find one that some kid hasn't turned into a shitmobile), and I just can't stand the mazdaspeed 3 so don't even go there. If there was an Abarth 500 for sale in the US, I would probably just get one. Turbo cobalt is a real performance car, but heavy....everything is so heavy nowadays. I'm a Colin Chapman kind of guy. All of my other options weigh 300+lbs more than the Yaris.

Back to the question-could the boosted and sorted 1nz Yaris fit my goals (and do it at 1000's less than a used turbo mini)? Would I be able to carefully setup and tune the car, then mostly just perform maintenance, not a never-ending research project?

Thanks for your input!!!

[yarisugi]

Fiat sells the 500 (though Abarth name was dropped) in the USA now. Personally, I'd say the Mini would be a better choice if comparing the two even though the Mini costs much more. Since you already own a Yaris, I don't know if the mods you mentioned would be comparable to a Mini - Maybe the member Jason@SportsCar might be who to ask? The Forced Induction section or the Tracking, Racing, Auto-X section of this site might provide a better read for your goals. A few on this site already have the zage kit and the other alternative would be the blitz supercharger for adequate boost. They could chime in, too.

[OTB]

I guess I should have said "Abarth 500 essesse" above. The regular Fiat 500....no thanks.

I'll try to lure some opinions from the forced induction and track sections-thanks.

[Jason@SportsCar]

So I'd appreciate your input on this subject, and especially those of you who took the turbo plunge.

My goal: a reliable lightweight car for street transportation that will still give cooper S cars a run for their money in street class time attack. I have a MR-S race car, and don't have intentions of making my street car into a very competitive car. I do, however have a goal of making it road course worthy (preventing oil and fuel starvation, coolant overtemps, brake fade.)

I own: 2007 Yaris USA 3-door with no options, good quality springs, struts/shocks, rear swaybar. I have owned some much "nicer" cars in my day, but I'd have to say this is probably the best street car I've owned. It is a blast to drive, but obviously with a couple limitations. 1) power-I don't need a ton of it, but it doesn't even have enough power to maintain throttle through corners on the track. 2)suspension-front strut tower mounting (or lack thereof) and the rear end "is what it is"

I used to own a turbo cooper s (stock with good suspension) that my buddy and I would both drive in different time attack events, and we did ok. The car was lots of fun, surprisingly strong, and a pain to work on. I unfortunately had a incident with a couple deer and no more cooper.

My question is....to meet my goals above, do I pursue another cooper, or make the yaris a better weapon?

Proposed Yaris plan: Zage turbo kit to produce approx 150hp for some reliability. I think most guys tune for more boost/power than that, but I'm not interested in pushing the limits of tuning and 1nz strength. Better suspension (have custom lower than MI springs made for my tokico reds, or go to damping adjustable coilovers). Limited slip. I bought my Yaris as a salvage (but actually tip top, just a front bumper cover replacement really) for a good price. Zage kit + management (FIC and PnP harness) + tuning + monitoring gauges + lsd+unplanned BS in reality will cost about $4500. Do I have to kiss my front and rear oem brakes goodbye?

Potential other cars: another turbo mini, rsx-s (great setup but hard to find one that some kid hasn't turned into a shitmobile), and I just can't stand the mazdaspeed 3 so don't even go there. If there was an Abarth 500 for sale in the US, I would probably just get one. Turbo cobalt is a real performance car, but heavy....everything is so heavy nowadays. I'm a Colin Chapman kind of guy. All of my other options weigh 300+lbs more than the Yaris.

Back to the question-could the boosted and sorted 1nz Yaris fit my goals (and do it at 1000's less than a used turbo mini)? Would I be able to carefully setup and tune the car, then mostly just perform maintenance, not a never-ending research project?

Thanks for your input!!!

Only you know what will make you happy... But I would start with the basics and work up.

First, better suspension. Get a set of quality coil-overs. The Tokicos are not track worthy, they are an OK street shock - hint, stay away from any adjustable shock that combines compression and rebound adjustments, you will never get the damping curve where you want it. Stick with rebound adjustable shocks unless you really know what you are doing, you can really screw up a car playing with the compression settings.

Swaybars: if you get the springs and shocks right you wont need to bolt a 15lb weight to your rear axle. :wink:

Brakes: the stock brakes are overkill for the weight of the Yaris. Upgrade the front pads and leave the rest alone. If your car has a lot of miles, or the lines look suspect, get the stainless ones. We only added brake cooling ducts when we went to the 13" wheels because the airflow is so restricted, we have still never had fade - and this is with a 40min race, not a few hot laps.

Trans: this makes the car, you must get an LSD. If you have the money get the OS Giken, if you want to go cheaper get the TRD unit. BUT while you are in there install the xB 4.312 final drive, it really wakes the car up. You will already be paying the labor (or doing the work) to pull the stock gears when you install the LSD, it is not much more work to swap the gears.

Tires/wheels: 13" wheels make the car a rocket. They give you an even shorter final drive, lower the cg (and help get the roof down out of the air), they are also a lot lighter than the big stuff. Another advantage is you can run a wide 13" tire without it bashing the fenders, no need to cut or roll.

Bolt-ons: Get the header, intake and ecu. You can really unlock some power.

That alone should be enough to take out any stockish Cooper S. If you are not satisfied at that point you have all the basics covered, and now you add the FI.

As far as a radiator, the Mishimoto xB unit pretty much drops right in (you have to drill two holes in the core support), and we used the xB hose set.

[HTM Yaris]

As far as a radiator, the Mishimoto xB unit pretty much drops right in (you have to drill two holes in the core support), and we used the xB hose set.

Just in time

:headbang::bow::bow::headbang:

[HTM Yaris]

I have seen more than a few Abarths here in SC ...

[Jason@SportsCar]

I have seen more than a few Abarths here in SC ...

They are all over the place... It takes more than a set of stickers to make a car a model that is not sold here. Yet. There are certainly "tribute" cars out there. Fiat even lets you order the 500 with some stickers.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-k83t4_ez0Zs/TdqtHdjzW9I/AAAAAAAADjg/Y4Gqssgebug/s1600/confused_yaris.jpg

[cali yaris]

Jason has a good answer, although I swear by my sway bar; seems to work really well with my set up.

Add a light flywheel when you put in the diff and final drive.

[Jason@SportsCar]

Jason has a good answer, although I swear by my sway bar; seems to work really well with my set up.

Add a light flywheel when you put in the diff and final drive.

How the hell did I forget the flywheel.:thumbsup:

Your rear bar works because your rear shocks are to long. :wink: Shorten them up and they will pick the tire up, without the weight of the bar. Although, its likely not a very street-friendly setup.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

The question here is undoubtedly what you are aiming for. A Yaris with a Zage kit isn't really going to be comparable to all the other cars you mentioned. If I were in your position though, I would turbo the Yaris. It's a crap ton cheaper than everything else being considered and the Zage kit really brings the car to life. 150ish hp may sound low but on such a lightweight car, as you mentioned, it's kinda a big deal. At this point, there's now a couple of people who have used the Zage kit so a lot of research has been done already (I wish I could have had that luxury).

I know you're talking about tracking it, but I can at least testify as to how awesome of a daily driver the Yaris is turboed. It's so much damn fun, and I'm still achieving 30+ MPGs.

[OTB]

I appreciate the input. I'll have a look at 4.xx final drive and lsd units. The flywheel feels so light on the stock yaris (heel-toes are just a tiny blip), I hadn't even considered there's lighter ones out there. Since the Yaris makes no torque out of the hole, does the lighter flywheel make streetability really suck (like starting up a hill, etc.)?

Suspension wise-I don't think I could handle the spring rates necessary for pitching the boat anchor (swaybar), due to the car being a street car. Damping adjustable coilovers w/spring rates similar to my MI springs would probably be my route.

Brakes-good to hear! Just like my MR-S, with the right pads, the stock brakes pretty much kick ass.

Wheels-I'll explore the options. 13" would be cool, especially with a smaller overall diameter tire, but for street class time attack, I'm not sure I'll find 13" compatible tires (RE-11, RT-615, Kumho XS, Star Spec:thumbup:, etc.) Race tires seem to be more available in funky sizes.

Again, thanks guys, I certainly studied up on Garm's posts, Jason's article in SportsCar, and Focus's install thread.

I'll try to have a good look at Jason's car at Miller and take some notes.

[cali yaris]

for street class time attack, I'm not sure I'll find 13" compatible tires

I run 13x8's with Hoosier 225 R6 tires for road courses, but I think that would put me out of "street class".

[cali yaris]

The flywheel feels so light on the stock yaris (heel-toes are just a tiny blip), I hadn't even considered there's lighter ones out there.

Stock is about 15 pounds, the ones I sell are 9.4. and 8.6. Big difference.

[Jason@SportsCar]

I appreciate the input. I'll have a look at 4.xx final drive and lsd units. The flywheel feels so light on the stock yaris (heel-toes are just a tiny blip), I hadn't even considered there's lighter ones out there. Since the Yaris makes no torque out of the hole, does the lighter flywheel make streetability really suck (like starting up a hill, etc.)?

Wheels-I'll explore the options. 13" would be cool, especially with a smaller overall diameter tire, but for street class time attack, I'm not sure I'll find 13" compatible tires (RE-11, RT-615, Kumho XS, Star Spec:thumbup:, etc.) Race tires seem to be more available in funky sizes.

Again, thanks guys, I certainly studied up on Garm's posts, Jason's article in SportsCar, and Focus's install thread.

I'll try to have a good look at Jason's car at Miller and take some notes.

Without FI power you really need gear multiplication to make the car move, it is a world of difference.

The stock setup (flywheel/clutch/pressure plate) is 26lbs, our lightened setup is 18lbs. While it is a significant difference, it is totally street-able. The problem with most race setups on the street is to aggressive of a pressure plate/clutch combo, some of them are an on/off switch. We used a 3-puck solid hub clutch (weighs 1lb), but a very mild pressure plate - its not like we are trying to hold back 300hp - so it is easy to drive. The flywheel alone wont have much impact on how the car drives, it just lets it rev more freely.

If you are going to run a street tire class the 13"s wont work, there are no options for competitive street tires (140+ tread wear) in those sizes. I would go with a 15x8" wheel, and a 225 Hankook RS3. :thumbsup:

I don't think we are going to make Miller this year, its not in the budget. :frown:

[ilikerice]

I am not sure about NASA rules but i do know if you plan to autocross with SCCA and you wanna stay in Street Touring class. Dont boost. Stick to what Garm and Jason are saying..

BUT if you do boost, I think the supercharger is your best bet for the instant boost and also you are looking for only 140-150hp range. perfect setup. Then that will put you in Street Modified class. Then you can get those Rcomp tires on 13" wheels and be more competitive..

We have a guy in our region who runs a Cooper S and KILLS everyone. He is Stuart K. Scroll down to the RAW TIMES. He is running in D Stock class.. Its in the driver. This particular event he let someone else run his car also "phillip lee". that kid is a prodigy.
http://buccaneerregion.com/ce-7-11.html

some of my insight and bit of input

I like this thread, giving me some insight on future plans for the yaris. thanks!

[cali yaris]

We used a 3-puck solid hub clutch (weighs 1lb), but a very mild pressure plate - its not like we are trying to hold back 300hp - so it is easy to drive.

That's a great set up. My Stage 4 clutch is a little twitchy for the street.

[Jason@SportsCar]

That's a great set up. My Stage 4 clutch is a little twitchy for the street.

Well you do have about twice as much power as us. :burnrubber:

[cali yaris]

^ yeah and half the skill. :laugh:

[ROCKLANDTOYOTA]

Only you know what will make you happy... But I would start with the basics and work up.

First, better suspension. Get a set of quality coil-overs. The Tokicos are not track worthy, they are an OK street shock - hint, stay away from any adjustable shock that combines compression and rebound adjustments, you will never get the damping curve where you want it. Stick with rebound adjustable shocks unless you really know what you are doing, you can really screw up a car playing with the compression settings.

Swaybars: if you get the springs and shocks right you wont need to bolt a 15lb weight to your rear axle. :wink:

Brakes: the stock brakes are overkill for the weight of the Yaris. Upgrade the front pads and leave the rest alone. If your car has a lot of miles, or the lines look suspect, get the stainless ones. We only added brake cooling ducts when we went to the 13" wheels because the airflow is so restricted, we have still never had fade - and this is with a 40min race, not a few hot laps.

Trans: this makes the car, you must get an LSD. If you have the money get the OS Giken, if you want to go cheaper get the TRD unit. BUT while you are in there install the xB 4.312 final drive, it really wakes the car up. You will already be paying the labor (or doing the work) to pull the stock gears when you install the LSD, it is not much more work to swap the gears.

Tires/wheels: 13" wheels make the car a rocket. They give you an even shorter final drive, lower the cg (and help get the roof down out of the air), they are also a lot lighter than the big stuff. Another advantage is you can run a wide 13" tire without it bashing the fenders, no need to cut or roll.

Bolt-ons: Get the header, intake and ecu. You can really unlock some power.

That alone should be enough to take out any stockish Cooper S. If you are not satisfied at that point you have all the basics covered, and now you add the FI.

As far as a radiator, the Mishimoto xB unit pretty much drops right in (you have to drill two holes in the core support), and we used the xB hose set.

what ECU are we to use for just BOLT-ONS???

[Jason@SportsCar]

what ECU are we to use for just BOLT-ONS???

Anything that will let you past the rev limiter, and control the VVTi. :biggrin:

We had a custom harness made that allows us to piggy back an AEM EMS series 2.

There are other options out there, none of which are cheap. But without ECU control any mods, including FI, are compromised.

[Blown_xa]

Good advice was given for sure. If you go boost, keep it at a 40whp gain and no more if you want it reliable on a stock motor for track abuse. I say 40whp gain instead of a specific number because dynos vary. Get a baseline number, and use that same dyno later for reference. I popped rods many times at 150whp (our dyno) and it is never fun to invest $500 entry fee and go home on a tow truck. I must have done 6 Time Attacks at 130whp and never had issues. It was enough power to podium many times in street fwd, as long as you are a decent driver and you have everything else dialed in.

[mazilla]

Great thread.

[TRD.RiC]

Brakes are a must thats for sure. If i can put my input into this id say get braces as a 1st suspension mod. IMO is prolly the best mods done that ive done yet. without them i felt that the body was working too much. i got the 3 underbody brace from UltraRacing and it really feels good now. Just going over a speed bump you feel that the body of the car doesnt wobble as much. The car feels a lot stiffer and when i push it I like the feel that Im into a solid car. I got coilovers and RSB as well but my 1st mod was the braces and I can defenitly say that i got better benefit from those mods that the shitty tein basic coilovers i got

I starting doing some laps in the car fully stock except for advan a032r tires. In a way I am building the car to what my track sessions tells me can be improved. So my setup was the braces ---- RSB ---- Coilover(which I really really really dislike) and alignment at same time. The car is tail happy with me driving but I am really rough on it when doing my inputs. I have to improve that a lot (my racing instructors loves to ride with me but say ill kill the direction of the car really fast.) The front bushing where torn at 33000km?.

Anyway. Go out there do some laps and build it from there is what I would say more than try this try that. We all drive differently and you build it for your driving habits not some other person. It's ur money!

[ilikerice]

I like braces. But I think if you wanna track a car the first thing you should invest in is a roll cage an fire extinguishing system. But I am a little confused what the OP goals are for.
Just simple PDX track events are great and fun and you dont need all the safty equipment.
Then you mentioned autocross which those braces will put you in SM class.
IF you run track events and build it to a specific class there. You may end up in a non competitive class in autocross. Most of the guys who run track events use autocross to dial in thier cars a bit more and just fill in the gap between track events. They usually run Prepared class's.

Depends what type of racing you wanna do to be competitive in.

[cali yaris]

I think if you wanna track a car the first thing you should invest in is a roll cage an fire extinguishing system.

I tracked my car a month after I bought it on stock tires and Tanabe springs. I didn't put a cage in until two months ago. So I will respectfully disagree; you can go have a lot of fun before installing all that stuff.

[why?]

The stock setup (flywheel/clutch/pressure plate) is 26lbs, our lightened setup is 18lbs. While it is a significant difference, it is totally street-able. The problem with most race setups on the street is to aggressive of a pressure plate/clutch combo, some of them are an on/off switch. We used a 3-puck solid hub clutch (weighs 1lb), but a very mild pressure plate - its not like we are trying to hold back 300hp - so it is easy to drive. The flywheel alone wont have much impact on how the car drives, it just lets it rev more freely.


1 pound! Do I even want to know how rare and expensive it is before I get my hopes up? Is it something that can last on a daily driver?

[Jason@SportsCar]

1 pound! Do I even want to know how rare and expensive it is before I get my hopes up? Is it something that can last on a daily driver?

Nothing exotic at all, its right off the shelf from SPEC. The stock clutch disc is only 2lbs, and it is a full disc with a sprung hub.

I can't think of any reason it would not work for a daily driver. The solid hub is not as smooth as a sprung one, but you really only feel it in 1st gear.

[why?]

Nothing exotic at all, its right off the shelf from SPEC. The stock clutch disc is only 2lbs, and it is a full disc with a sprung hub.

I can't think of any reason it would not work for a daily driver. The solid hub is not as smooth as a sprung one, but you really only feel it in 1st gear.

Oh, you made it sound like it was significantly less than stock. I go a little crazy with weight reduction. I hate the stock Yaris clutch with a passion, I am pretty sure Garm sells SPEC too. Thank You.

[OTB]

Good advice was given for sure. If you go boost, keep it at a 40whp gain and no more if you want it reliable on a stock motor for track abuse. I say 40whp gain instead of a specific number because dynos vary. Get a baseline number, and use that same dyno later for reference. I popped rods many times at 150whp (our dyno) and it is never fun to invest $500 entry fee and go home on a tow truck. I must have done 6 Time Attacks at 130whp and never had issues. It was enough power to podium many times in street fwd, as long as you are a decent driver and you have everything else dialed in.

thanks! I think alot of us wanted this info

[CrankyOldMan]

Trans: this makes the car, you must get an LSD. If you have the money get the OS Giken, if you want to go cheaper get the TRD unit. BUT while you are in there install the xB 4.312 final drive, it really wakes the car up. You will already be paying the labor (or doing the work) to pull the stock gears when you install the LSD, it is not much more work to swap the gears.

What parts would have to be swapped out for this? I'm assuming that it's not just the drive/driven pair for 5th gear (circled in red), but a different gear that mates to the LSD or driveshafts? I'm having a hard time getting a good picture of the gearbox from these parts diagrams.

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/8693/xbgears.png

Looking at the C50 repair manual gives much better illustrations, so I'm thinking it's actually the gear that attaches to the differential? If so, then wouldn't the entire output shaft also have to be replaced?

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/1186/diffdrivegear.png

[Bluevitz-rs]

Looking at the C50 repair manual gives much better illustrations, so I'm thinking it's actually the gear that attaches to the differential? If so, then wouldn't the entire output shaft also have to be replaced?


Yes.

[cali yaris]

+1, the final drive + the output shaft.

[fnkngrv]

This is an awesome thread and giving me much more useful info than I knew about this car. It could greatly shift my plans. Great way for the OP to start things.

[CrankyOldMan]

So after poking around for part numbers with the xB transmission, it looks like in '07 they went with the E351 instead of the C50 (due to engine change). This would mean that only an '06 or older xB/xA tranny would have the desired output shaft and gear ring? (I looked into the part numbers and they match for xA/xB).

How can it be the same transmission (C50) if it has different gear ratios inside? Seems like that would warrant a sub-designation or something to make it apparent, especially if I were to go to a junk yard and try to find one.

[cali yaris]

Jason posted the xB part numbers needed:

If anyone is interested in the parts needed to do the xB final drive (4.312) swap:

33321-52110, output shaft
41221-52270, ring gear
90105-11040, ring gear bolts (8)

[CrankyOldMan]

Jason posted the xB part numbers needed:

Is there a difference between the old/new parts? Some sites don't have the new numbers, so here's the old ones:

33321-17011, output shaft
51221-12340, ring gear
90105-11040, ring gear bolts (8) (no change)

At this point, I'm going to either make a new thread or keep chasing these ideas on the xB final drive swap (http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29864) thread

[HTM Yaris]

They are all over the place... It takes more than a set of stickers to make a car a model that is not sold here. Yet. There are certainly "tribute" cars out there. Fiat even lets you order the 500 with some stickers.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-k83t4_ez0Zs/TdqtHdjzW9I/AAAAAAAADjg/Y4Gqssgebug/s1600/confused_yaris.jpg

Yeah , I didn't get fooled by a set of stickers on a Yaris . :bellyroll:

On second thought maybe I was suffering from heat induced delusions on that particular day . I was fishing all day and the sun was brutal . Maybe that wasn't a couple Chrysler Execs that I had a conversation with . You are probably right ., it was just some older guys who who decided to "rice up" ( or maybe the term should be "linguini up" , since it is Italian ) their Fiat 500's with some stupid little scorpion hood emblems . Maybe I was hearing things when they said there were 4 Abarths ( I have only seen 3, and to be honest maybe the third Abarth was just a plain 500 , it was a good distance away ) in Myrtle Beach , South Carolina.

Seriously Jason , with your vast experience with cars you have never heard or seen or known anyone that has driven new car models on public roads before they went on sale here in the USA ?

[Jason@SportsCar]

Yeah , I didn't get fooled by a set of stickers on a Yaris . :bellyroll:

On second thought maybe I was suffering from heat induced delusions on that particular day . I was fishing all day and the sun was brutal . Maybe that wasn't a couple Chrysler Execs that I had a conversation with . You are probably right ., it was just some older guys who who decided to "rice up" ( or maybe the term should be "linguini up" , since it is Italian ) their Fiat 500's with some stupid little scorpion hood emblems . Maybe I was hearing things when they said there were 4 Abarths ( I have only seen 3, and to be honest maybe the third Abarth was just a plain 500 , it was a good distance away ) in Myrtle Beach , South Carolina.

Seriously Jason , with your vast experience with cars you have never heard or seen or known anyone that has driven new car models on public roads before they went on sale here in the USA ?

Only took you about month to come up with a reply. :iono: Yes, it happens all the time with prototypes, I drove the 370Z the week before its launch at the LA autoshow, and I just got done driving one of the six 2012 pre-produciton Yaris that are in the US.

Seeing a pre-production car on the road and saying "I have seen more than a few Abarths here in SC" is a bit of a stretch in the context you put it - as if to bait the OP into thinking the cars are here. :rolleyes:

But its great that you ran into a couple of guys from Detroit driving a Mexican built Italian car. :laugh: Can't wait to see what a production Abarth offers when it actually makes it to our shores. :cool:

[OTB]

so all what-not aside, would it be a valuable resource if the xb final drive posts were stickied in a good place?

[Bluevitz-rs]

so all what-not aside, would it be a valuable resource if the xb final drive posts were stickied in a good place?

It would be nice to have my 6 spd conversion thread I put so much effort into stickyed as well.

[flg]

But then "My goal: a reliable lightweight car for street transportation that will still give cooper S cars a run for their money in street class time attack..."
Dosen't this imply you can't be tac'ing 5000rpm down 95 to work? But, without the torque increase of FI, the 6 speed is a viable alternative I suppose :frown: