Changing individual gear ratios?

[CrankyOldMan]

I've looked over the threads on final drive (FD) swap and the much more substantial 5->6 speed swap, but I haven't found any info on changing individual gear ratios.

A co-worker gave me a spreadsheet that helps calculate RPM drops between gears and by looking at some dyno charts it seems that the gap between 1-2 is too far, and the gap between 3-4 and 4-5 are less than ideal. I've also tried to find some coherent info on "shift points" but it still isn't making sense. My basic understanding at this point is: the torque doesn't really kick in until about 4k, and the redline is between 6k and 6.5k, meaning that you want to shift at redline but have the next gear pick up right around 4k to keep yourself in the power band.

All that said, is it possible/practical to alter the individual ratios to optimize them? I haven't dismantled a manual transmission before, but I built a LEGO model with a 3-speed gearbox once, so I understand that there are some important clearance issues with gear diameters.

Assuming that it is possible, it would of course make sense to have this done at the same time as a FD/clutch/flywheel/LSD mod. Your thoughts?

[Jason@SportsCar]

You can pave the way and figure out what other cars internals fit. :confused: Seems like a big headache to me, for a very minimal change. What is it you want to do with the car?

With the xB FD we don't use 1st gear for anything but getting the car moving (about 10'), and when we still ran the 15" wheel/tire combo we rarely used 2nd gear, so that big split was a non issue.

If you want to make the car quicker put in the xB FD. If you want to cut your shift spacing, put in the 6spd. :thumbsup: If you need a project that will burn a lot of spare time and money, buy a bunch of Toyota transmissions from a wrecking yard and try building something custom. :drinking:

Here is the speed difference between the two FDs: http://www.fatboyraceworks.com/gears/index.php?MaxRPM=6500&TireDiameter=23.44&GearRatio1=3.545&GearRatio2=1.904&GearRatio3=1.310&GearRatio4=.969&GearRatio5=.815&GearRatio6=&FinalDrive=4.312&TireWidth=195&TireAspect=55&RimDiameter=15&MaxRPM_2=6500&TireDiameter_2=23.44&GearRatio1_2=3.545&GearRatio2_2=1.904&GearRatio3_2=1.310&GearRatio4_2=.969&GearRatio5_2=.815&GearRatio6_2=&FinalDrive_2=3.722&TireWidth_2=195&TireAspect_2=55&RimDiameter_2=15&Calculate=Calculate%2FGraph&Compare=1

[CrankyOldMan]

You can pave the way and figure out what other cars internals fit. :confused: Seems like a big headache to me, for a very minimal change. What is it you want to do with the car?

It's currently my DD, but I would love to get into autoX, possibly even road courses with SCCA. In the mean time, I drive it like I stole it.

With the xB FD we don't use 1st gear for anything but getting the car moving (about 10'), and when we still ran the 15" wheel/tire combo we rarely used 2nd gear, so that big split was a non issue.

There are multiple stops between home and work/school, so using 1st/2nd regularly is inevitable. I've fantasized about doing the xB FD swap, but it would likely not be until after I've finished my degree in 3-ish years. Yes, this would also likely include a flywheel/clutch/lsd swap to save on labor.

If you want to make the car quicker put in the xB FD. If you want to cut your shift spacing, put in the 6spd. :thumbsup: If you need a project that will burn a lot of spare time and money, buy a bunch of Toyota transmissions from a wrecking yard and try building something custom. :drinking:

I actually LOL'd here. I'm assuming from the xB FD swap thread that when you replace the output shaft, you have to remove all the gears from the original output shaft and re-install them on the xB one. My first impression was that you just plonk the whole xB shaft (gears and all) into the old gearbox. After reading the repair manual, that doesn't seem to be the case.

My big concern about the 6-speed is the whole frame cutting bit. Not really a bolt-on solution, which is primarily what I'm interested in/capable of, even if I pay a shop to do it. Even then, I can't see a shop putting a warranty on that kind of work.

If I had access to those kinds of resources I would gladly devote them to it, but being a full time student, father of 4, and husband, niether time nor money are readily available for these kinds of projects.

Here is the speed difference between the two FDs: http://www.fatboyraceworks.com/gears/index.php?MaxRPM=6500&TireDiameter=23.44&GearRatio1=3.545&GearRatio2=1.904&GearRatio3=1.310&GearRatio4=.969&GearRatio5=.815&GearRatio6=&FinalDrive=4.312&TireWidth=195&TireAspect=55&RimDiameter=15&MaxRPM_2=6500&TireDiameter_2=23.44&GearRatio1_2=3.545&GearRatio2_2=1.904&GearRatio3_2=1.310&GearRatio4_2=.969&GearRatio5_2=.815&GearRatio6_2=&FinalDrive_2=3.722&TireWidth_2=195&TireAspect_2=55&RimDiameter_2=15&Calculate=Calculate%2FGraph&Compare=1

I'm not entirely sure what benefit the chart is showing. I get that changing the FD alters the mechanical advantage (less RPM, more torque), but I don't understand how to estimate the improvement in acceleration from the given info.

[Jason@SportsCar]

I actually LOL'd here. I'm assuming from the xB FD swap thread that when you replace the output shaft, you have to remove all the gears from the original output shaft and re-install them on the xB one. My first impression was that you just plonk the whole xB shaft (gears and all) into the old gearbox. After reading the repair manual, that doesn't seem to be the case.

If I had access to those kinds of resources I would gladly devote them to it, but being a full time student, father of 4, and husband, niether time nor money are readily available for these kinds of projects.

I'm not entirely sure what benefit the chart is showing. I get that changing the FD alters the mechanical advantage (less RPM, more torque), but I don't understand how to estimate the improvement in acceleration from the given info.

I know my limits... I pull the trans out, order the FD/output shaft, drop it off at the shop. Then I pick up a piece that is ready to install in the car. When I first saw the trans open I thought no big deal, then I noticed the bucket of parts on the floor, that still had to go back in. :eek: Some jobs are best left to the pros.

Resources... You have four kids, this sounds like a family bonding project. :biggrin: Kids have small hands, great for little parts. I can't wait till my 6yr old can reach the pedals, then she can replace the wife when its time to bleed the brakes. :thumbsup:

The chart just shows the difference in speed VS RPM.

Here is a trans for $200. http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showpost.php?p=600320&postcount=1 Even is the synchros are crap, all you want is the FD and output shaft. Hell, I would ask the seller to pull out those two parts and chuck the rest, saves on shipping.

[BEEF]

being an old truck guy, generally if you decrease the numerical rear end (ie 3.55 to 3.21) you get better mileage but worse acceleration and vice versa for increasing the number.

I know it is actually 1/3.55 and what not but to be simple I look at it backwards.

one of the best things I did for power was go from 3.55s to 4.10s. it was by far the best thing I did but it was very expensive and it was on a rear wheel drive vehicle. not sure how it would be on a front wheel drive vehicle.

given the final drive gear ratios, I would think it would be a very noticeable difference.

[CrankyOldMan]

I'm not sure if this is a reposted link, but it seems at least partly relevant: http://www.wcengineering.com/articles/toyotatrans.html

[Lil Abner]

Well, my previous just was designing and engineering transmissions for small cars (like ours) for about 3 years. Can it be done? Yes. Will it be cheap? Heck no!! Custom helical cut gears are not cheap, even if you stick with stock gear cutter sizes. And you'll have to do the engineering on your own unless you can get the drawings for the current transmission, or have access to someone with some really good measuring tools. A caliper just won't cut it. If you have the time and cash, it would be a fun project!

[CrankyOldMan]

I've got access to a huge (30"?) optical comparator at work, so getting precise measurements wouldn't be too much of an issue for me. My biggest obstacle would be the metallurgy: I don't know enough about heat treating to even be able to guess what kind of hardening/annealing processes to use. Perhaps you have some insight here LilAbner?

All of the fantasy custom fabrication aside, the simple answer here would be: rev high enough in each gear to be able to drop close to the low end of the power band. Yes?

[Lil Abner]

Well, the only spec I can remember right now is:
Material: UNS G86200 (Rc 31-37)
Heat Treat: Carb Nitride
Hardness: Rc 58-62
Heat Treat Depth: 0.5-0.75mm

We also used a different material, but I can't remember what it was since I haven't worked there in a few years.

[CrankyOldMan]

Ok, after a bit of perusing around the web, I found a nice list of (accurate?) gear ratios for the C family of transmissions on Wikipedia. There are a few variants of ratios for each gear, but not all of the transmissions include information on which vehicles they were attached to.

Bluevitz-RS was also involved in a thread on yarisfans.com (http://yarisfans.com/forum/yaf_postst36_How-to-adapt-a-Toyota-C56-gearbox-with-TRD-4-71-final-drive-to-fit-an-Echo-.aspx) that documented swapping some internals between a C56 and a C150. The work involved was pretty spectacular, but the end result was very much functional and narrowed the RPM drop between gears to stay in the power band when upshifting from redline.

All in all, this gives me some hope of it being possible. That said, the probablility of finding the right donor vehicles could be very low. I'm going to spend some time working with my gear ratio spreadsheet to see which ratios are good candidates, then see about tracking down their sources.

[CrankyOldMan]

So after a few hours of trying to cross reference the wikipedia information with the parts diagrams on toyotapartszone, I've come to a few conclusions:

1. The close ratio C56 would be ideal, but because it's set up for performance it's both highly sought after, and high priced. ($1200-1600 used).

2. The C52 is a close second because it has the 1st, 2nd and 5th gear ratios of the C56 (the smaller diameter gear is integral to the input/output shaft) and the 3rd and 4th gears are close. The output shaft from the '84-'89 MR2 (crosschecks on toyodiy as being the same as the 1NZ xA/xB) has the 4.058 FD ratio, reinforcing the idea that shaft swapping is possible as long as you match the in/out by 1st and 5th gear, possibly 2nd too. These are also hard to come by for less than $1k.

3. The C59 is mathematically identical to the C52, but "stronger" so it may have better race/boosted performance and/or longevity. Broken ones can be found for under $500, but good ones will cost upwards of $1k.

So at this point, while I would love to get elbows deep in my wallet and a few salvaged gearboxes, I have to keep this on the back burner. If someone has a few different 5-speed gear sets lying around, I would love to hear if the in/out shafts can be dropped directly into a different C5# gearbox.

[CrankyOldMan]

More scrubbing and cross referencing:

* The 09 xD (C50) has the same gearbox case as the 09 Yaris, but a different bell housing. The 03 Matrix (C59) has the same output shaft and gear ring as the 09 xD. Therefore, the FD of the Matrix /should/ fit in the stock Yaris gearbox. The 03 Matrix and 08 xD are both listed as having a 3.941 FD.

* The 09 xD also has the same input shaft as the 09 Yaris, so the clutch should bolt up just fine.. All three vehicles have different part numbers for 1st gear, so I'm a bit fuzzy on how that sorts out. The Yaris and xD should have a 3.545:1 1st gear ratio, but the Matrix has the coveted 3.166 of the C52/C56.

Yes, I should just go take a few stacks of $20 bills to the scrap yard and have at it, but doing it this way only costs time. =)

[CrankyOldMan]

Time for an update, I suppose. I think I've covered this elsewhere, but here's what I'm looking at for a custom gearbox:

1st: 3.166:1 (C56)
2nd: 1.904:1 (C56)
3rd: 1.310:1 (C50)
4th: 0.969:1 (C50)
5th: 0.725:1 (C59)
Final: 4.312:1 (C56)

There are some tricky details about which year/model the parts come from, but most of them are eluding me at the moment. Perhaps I'll sort that out soon.

[CrankyOldMan]

It's a bit busy, but the intention here is to show how changing the gear ratios leads to improved spread. Stock C50 is in dotted red, C56 in blue, Custom in dark green. You can follow the gear shifts by starting on the lowest line and following the horizontal lines to the left once you reach 6k rpm. There really isn't much to be done about the gap between 1st and 2nd, but as Jason has indicated above, 1st becomes pretty irrelevant for racing applications.

[fnkngrv]

Perhaps if things play out right I can give you a better confirmation on the top speed with the stock rev limiter in place. Right now my 143 pretty much matches up to your graph.

[Jerkratt]

Hey cranky any news on the transaction gears I plan on hunting down the gears I need...

[CrankyOldMan]

I haven't had a chance to tinker with it this summer--too much AutoX! But this winter I will be at school pretty much full time, so I will have more frequent access to the shop where I'm working on it. Could you refresh my memory on what your plans were?

[Jerkratt]

I haven't had a chance to tinker with it this summer--too much AutoX! But this winter I will be at school pretty much full time, so I will have more frequent access to the shop where I'm working on it. Could you refresh my memory on what your plans were?


My stock trans is at my transmission guy. Any info on the gear ratios you posted a few posts up. If you found out what car/model/year Ect. Please and thank you. Personal chat might work better if so email me at Jerkratt@gmail.com

[CrankyOldMan]

I'll dig up my spreadsheets and see what info I'm missing. I think I accidentally deleted my part number workbook and only have a partial record from a previous version...

[Jerkratt]

Please and thank you I'm gonna have to go scavenger hunting anyway to find the trans 's I need

[CrankyOldMan]

Well, here's what I have so far. One spreadsheet is a list of OEM part numbers, if you want to either buy them new or find what donor vehicles should have them. The other is a sandbox for evaluating different ratios. It's up to you to put in the right values, but it will show you the change in top-end speed for a given setup. The tradeoff for lower top speed is more torque, but this doesn't factor in the torque curve of the 1ZZ. The doc is a collection of different configurations. If you can't see it in MS office formats, I can try and post them as PDFs instead.

[fnkngrv]

Heya Jerkratt - If you end up having to have tools purchased to do the work let me know as I might be interested in going in on it with you for my transmission mods I need to have done!

[fnkngrv]

I have started a new group on Facebook called "Toyota 1NZ Enthusiasts Garage. There is interest on what can be mated with the 1NZ to include I believe even transaxles. I will be posting up this information in a document there as well.

[CrankyOldMan]

So I finally got around to counting the teeth on all the gear sets I've acquired. Turns out there were a few surprises!

C50 (Yaris and xB): as expected
C56 ('03 Celica): as expected
C59 ('07 Matrix): 4th gear actually 0.886:1 (31:35)
Differentials for C56 and C59: may be the same as the xD. RagnaCaT on microimage is in the process of swapping an LSD into an xD gearbox to put on his Yaris and discovered that the xD has a different differential, despite having the "same" C50 gearbox.

Looks like it's time for me to go back over the spreadsheet and find out if I'm using that new 4th gear ratio.

[RagnaCaT]

Something that would be nice to look up is the 2014 corolla 6 speed MT they still have the 2ZRFE and our tranny bolts to them maybe just need XD axles also... Do you know where we can look it up?

[fnkngrv]

As a heads up your original graph is a bit off in the estimates as I have the stock C50 still and currently my top speed on the dyno sits in the mid 160s. This is at the 7k redline.

[RagnaCaT]

As a heads up your original graph is a bit off in the estimates as I have the stock C50 still and currently my top speed on the dyno sits in the mid 160s on pump gas and the ~250hp. This is at the 7k redline.

Maybe his qoute is at the 6400 redline thats why its below the 160 I will soon be testing the 3.94 ratio I think its in the middle of performance and economy.

[fnkngrv]

If you look at graph he has presented he does show the continued elevation past the 6250 redline. In some parts of the world it is actually 6500. His graph is theoretical in nature anyway, but I figured that I would share the disparity. He and I have been discussing this topic for months via PM.

We are both very intrigued with the entire scope of the subject. It also has been very educational for me especially when I talk with other parties that have no experience with the powertrain in the car and thinking that it is easy to increase the ability for top speed by changing gearing not realizing that there is very little support for the platform.

[RagnaCaT]

If you look at graph he has presented he does show the continued elevation past the 6250 redline. In some parts of the world it is actually 6500. His graph is theoretical in nature anyway, but I figured that I would share the disparity. He and I have been discussing this topic for months via PM.

We are both very intrigued with the entire scope of the subject. It also has been very educational for me especially when I talk with other parties that have no experience with the powertrain in the car and thinking that it is easy to increase the ability for top speed by changing gearing not realizing that there is very little support for the platform.

Your right I was refering to the wrong graph the 1st and didn't notice the rpm's in the second. The wheel size aldo affect the equation what size of tire was taken in to account?
This attachment I made can help you guys made this when hunting for the 3.94 final

[fnkngrv]

Your right I was refering to the wrong graph the 1st and didn't notice the rpm's in the second. The wheel size aldo affect the equation what size of tire was taken in to account?
This attachment I made can help you guys made this when hunting for the 3.94 final
very good point about the wheel and tire configuration. I am currently running 205/55/15.

[RagnaCaT]

very good point about the wheel and tire configuration. I am currently running 205/55/15.

My yaris has 195/50/16 this the exact height as OEM 185/60/15, intresting is that with 195/50/15 would give the same affect as 3.94 FD.

[CrankyOldMan]

As a heads up your original graph is a bit off in the estimates as I have the stock C50 still and currently my top speed on the dyno sits in the mid 160s. This is at the 7k redline.

The spreadsheet I use has a built-in reduction for "rolling radius" on the tires to compensate for the "perfect" geometry of calculating the tire diameter/circumference. I don't remember what tire size I had selected for that particular screenshot, so that could be a factor, too.

I think the spreadsheet is more useful as a comparison of ratios. As an engineer, I appreciate the value of a mathematical model, but I put more faith in the empirical evidence than the simulation.

[Jason@SportsCar]

Differentials for C56 and C59: may be the same as the xD. RagnaCaT on microimage is in the process of swapping an LSD into an xD gearbox to put on his Yaris and discovered that the xD has a different differential, despite having the "same" C50 gearbox.



Does the xD have a different final drive and output shaft as well, or just the diff? *I know it is a different ratio, but is it physically different to the point it wont swap...

[CrankyOldMan]

Does the xD have a different final drive and output shaft as well, or just the diff? *I know it is a different ratio, but is it physically different to the point it wont swap...

I was able to close the Yaris C50 with a C56 and C59 differential in it, but I never checked the preload. From what I understand of RagnaCaT's project, the xD differential housing is large enough that the final drive ring gear from a Yaris will not seat on it. I took my ring gear off the xB diff--which is the same as the Yaris--but haven't dismantled the C59 or C56 diffs yet to measure their critical dimensions. That said, the C56 pinion shaft seems to mate correctly with the xB's ring gear, but I still have to do the preloads and whatnot.

Are you hoping to use the larger diff and output shafts from an xD for better power handling, or some other reason?

[CrankyOldMan]

I've just realized that up to this point I've been referring to the pinion shaft as the "output" shaft. Now that the output/drive shafts are in the discussion, I should probably stick with "pinion" for the shaft between the input and differential from now on, yes?

[Jason@SportsCar]

Are you hoping to use the larger diff and output shafts from an xD for better power handling, or some other reason?

No, looking to build my spare trans with a 3.9fd for faster tracks. With the 4.3 and Kaaz gear set I am on the limiter (7500rpm) in 5th at some tracks.

[CrankyOldMan]

No, looking to build my spare trans with a 3.9fd for faster tracks. With the 4.3 and Kaaz gear set I am on the limiter (7500rpm) in 5th at some tracks.

Gotcha. In that case, you can either get the xD or an 03-08 Corolla/Matrix 5-speed, or buy new:
Ring gear = 41221-17040 or 41221-12470
Pinion shaft = 33321-17020 or 33321-12211

That still leaves you with getting the right 1st gear set to match, so a whole gearbox may be easier to source.

Out of curiosity, what's your 5th gear ratio?

[Jason@SportsCar]

Gotcha. In that case, you can either get the xD or an 03-08 Corolla/Matrix 5-speed, or buy new:
Ring gear = 41221-17040 or 41221-12470
Pinion shaft = 33321-17020 or 33321-12211

That still leaves you with getting the right 1st gear set to match, so a whole gearbox may be easier to source.

Out of curiosity, what's your 5th gear ratio?

My current ratios are:
3.545
1.904
1.474
1.208
.961

Why would I need to change 1st with that final drive change? Going to the xD FD did not require a gear change. :iono:

[RagnaCaT]

My current ratios are:
3.545
1.904
1.474
1.208
.961

Why would I need to change 1st with that final drive change? Going to the xD FD did not require a gear change. :iono:

The XD output shaft and ring gear are different to the Yaris, they are larger you can"t drop a Yaris diff into XD tranny also one thing to look at is that the XD output shaft bearing is wider its the one that is next to the DIff so I don"t know if it cahnges the case or if it's just a different bearing.

[CrankyOldMan]

My current ratios are:
3.545
1.904
1.474
1.208
.961
Hmm. Have you considered going back to the stock 5th gear set (.815), or is it less hassle to swap the entire gearbox between races?

Why would I need to change 1st with that final drive change? Going to the xD FD did not require a gear change. :iono:

Sorry, I was in a bit of a rush. The '03-'08 C59 has a 3.166 1st gear ratio. The input shaft has the 1st, reverse and 2nd gear teeth integrated in it, so you'd have to completely tear down the pinion shaft to change 1st's driven gear. I guess that's only relevant if you're not using the xD. Your verb tense before made it sound like you hadn't done the swap yet, but this post's tense suggests you have. Maybe I'm just getting senile? =)

[RagnaCaT]

How can I know the ratios? I would like to recheck the XD gears cuase when I searched the tranny some parts are shared with the corolla but some are unique I think the first gear of the XD is one of them. I have still not assembled the tranny yet so id you guys need any info or pics let me know it's opened and covered in WD40

[Jason@SportsCar]

Hmm. Have you considered going back to the stock 5th gear set (.815), or is it less hassle to swap the entire gearbox between races?



Sorry, I was in a bit of a rush. The '03-'08 C59 has a 3.166 1st gear ratio. The input shaft has the 1st, reverse and 2nd gear teeth integrated in it, so you'd have to completely tear down the pinion shaft to change 1st's driven gear. I guess that's only relevant if you're not using the xD. Your verb tense before made it sound like you hadn't done the swap yet, but this post's tense suggests you have. Maybe I'm just getting senile? =)

I have two complete trans set up with OSGiken LSDs, 4.3fd and Kaaz close ratio 3-4-5, so a compete swap is easier. :biggrin:

The jump from 4th to 5th is already to tall, the car does not like to pull 5th at all, so I need to keep the spacing but move the entire range up - this necessitates a FD change, or an 8500rpm rev limiter. :laugh:

What is the xD 2nd? I don't use 2nd at most tracks, and only use 1st around the pits, so I could very likely just use the xD 1/2 combo.

[CrankyOldMan]

The XD output shaft and ring gear are different to the Yaris, they are larger you can"t drop a Yaris diff into XD tranny also one thing to look at is that the XD output shaft bearing is wider its the one that is next to the DIff so I don"t know if it cahnges the case or if it's just a different bearing.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "can't drop a Yaris diff into an xD tranny". Do you mean because of the output (pinion) shaft bearing, or is there some other dimension that doesn't fit? I'm confused because I can put a Matrix and Celica diff into my Yaris transmission housing and it seems to fit just fine.

My C56 and C59 have the same pinion bearing setup: the inner bearing race is held on the pinion shaft, so the bearing in the housing has a larger center opening with multiple smaller rollers. The Yaris/xB both use the shaft itself as the inner race and have a smaller center with fewer larger rollers. My camera battery is dead, otherwise I'd take pictures to show the difference. I'll see what I can do over the weekend for some pictures.

[CrankyOldMan]

I have two complete trans set up with OSGiken LSDs, 4.3fd and Kaaz close ratio 3-4-5, so a compete swap is easier. :biggrin:

The jump from 4th to 5th is already to tall, the car does not like to pull 5th at all, so I need to keep the spacing but move the entire range up - this necessitates a FD change, or an 8500rpm rev limiter. :laugh:

What is the xD 2nd? I don't use 2nd at most tracks, and only use 1st around the pits, so I could very likely just use the xD 1/2 combo.

You've got some deep pockets, or some very generous sponsors!

It looks like the FD swap is the way to go, so you just need to find a donor with the right ratio. From what I can tell so far--no measurements yet--the shafts all have similar (or the same) splines, so fitting the gears shouldn't be a problem. As for 2nd, all of the C5X gearboxes I've found have the same ratio (1.904), regardless of 1st or FD ratios.

[RagnaCaT]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "can't drop a Yaris diff into an xD tranny". Do you mean because of the output (pinion) shaft bearing, or is there some other dimension that doesn't fit? I'm confused because I can put a Matrix and Celica diff into my Yaris transmission housing and it seems to fit just fine.

My C56 and C59 have the same pinion bearing setup: the inner bearing race is held on the pinion shaft, so the bearing in the housing has a larger center opening with multiple smaller rollers. The Yaris/xB both use the shaft itself as the inner race and have a smaller center with fewer larger rollers. My camera battery is dead, otherwise I'd take pictures to show the difference. I'll see what I can do over the weekend for some pictures.

Yes the roller bearings sorry for poor explanation! I meant put the Diff only without the pinion shaft.
The pinion shaft of the XD is the same of the C56 & C59 thats way it uses the larger diff and I was able to source the Helical. The Xd is more like a corolla tranny than a yaris tranny.
I'm really bad at explaining things I'm the type that talks pointing at stuff with my finger, like that there and this over there.

[RagnaCaT]

You've got some deep pockets, or some very generous sponsors!

It looks like the FD swap is the way to go, so you just need to find a donor with the right ratio. From what I can tell so far--no measurements yet--the shafts all have similar (or the same) splines, so fitting the gears shouldn't be a problem. As for 2nd, all of the C5X gearboxes I've found have the same ratio (1.904), regardless of 1st or FD ratios.

Tell me how to calculate the ratio so I can check what the XD has.

[Jason@SportsCar]

You've got some deep pockets, or some very generous sponsors!



I came in to some spares when the 2012 got totaled. :frown:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/337004_10151242581956983_321363931_o.jpg

[CrankyOldMan]

Yes the roller bearings sorry for poor explanation! I meant put the Diff only without the pinion shaft.
The pinion shaft of the XD is the same of the C56 & C59 thats way it uses the larger diff and I was able to source the Helical. The Xd is more like a corolla tranny than a yaris tranny.
I'm really bad at explaining things I'm the type that talks pointing at stuff with my finger, like that there and this over there.
Ok, just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing. The Yaris pinion *almost* fits the Celica bearing, but there's too much slop/play in the fit. Looks like I'll have to put the Celica pinion back together to make it work right.

Tell me how to calculate the ratio so I can check what the XD has.
Count the teeth on both gears of a set, divide output by input. That gives you xxx:1 ratio. I had to count some of them a few times to get it right, and had to use a marker to indicate every 10th tooth to keep from losing count.

[CrankyOldMan]

I came in to some spares when the 2012 got totaled. :frown:

Bummer. That's a rough way to get a set of spares.

[RagnaCaT]

Bummer. That's a rough way to get a set of spares.

I second that... Wish I never get spares that way the junker works fine!

Hey Jason@SportsCar if swap the engine you change the class right?

[Jason@SportsCar]

I second that... Wish I never get spares that way the junker works fine!

Hey Jason@SportsCar if swap the engine you change the class right?

Yes, we are limited to using the 1NZFE in H Production. However, it does get cams, a little head work and some other goodies.

I would love to build a Super Touring Lite Yaris with a 2ZZ. Someday. :burnrubber:

[RagnaCaT]

Yes, we are limited to using the 1NZFE in H Production. However, it does get cams, a little head work and some other goodies.

I would love to build a Super Touring Lite Yaris with a 2ZZ. Someday. :burnrubber:

Great stuff... I'm porting the 2ZR and checking out the Prius piston swap soon after I finish playing around with XD tranny the only part Ineed are the axels. I got a junker that will ship a used set to my Dad in texas for 139.99 so tomarrow going to make the order.

[RagnaCaT]

Ok, just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing. The Yaris pinion *almost* fits the Celica bearing, but there's too much slop/play in the fit. Looks like I'll have to put the Celica pinion back together to make it work right.


Count the teeth on both gears of a set, divide output by input. That gives you xxx:1 ratio. I had to count some of them a few times to get it right, and had to use a marker to indicate every 10th tooth to keep from losing count.

ok let me see if I get it FD is 68 x 18 for the yaris 3.77 and 67 x 17 is 3.94 ??? I remeber we counted the Yaris teeth and the both had 67 x 17 only that the XD ring gear was taller I might be wrong

[CrankyOldMan]

ok let me see if I get it FD is 68 x 18 for the yaris 3.77 and 67 x 17 is 3.94 ??? I remeber we counted the Yaris teeth and the both had 67 x 17 only that the XD ring gear was taller I might be wrong

Yes, that's the right idea. I think you may need to count the Yaris again though, it should be 67:18 = 3.722. By "taller" do you mean the thickness of the gear, or taller/shorter gear ratio?

[RagnaCaT]

Yes, that's the right idea. I think you may need to count the Yaris again though, it should be 67:18 = 3.722. By "taller" do you mean the thickness of the gear, or taller/shorter gear ratio?

Taller is that the ring gear side by side the XD is taller than the Yaris ring gear

[CrankyOldMan]

Taller is that the ring gear side by side the XD is taller than the Yaris ring gear

Oh, yes, I noticed that too. If you just put the diff and pinion shaft in, they will scrape against each other. If you install the center housing and put the retaining clip on the bearing, it lifts the pinion shaft up a few mm, which should give plenty of clearance.

[Jerkratt]

So going for track use... Swapping XD final drive out of the first Gen would be the way too go?

[RagnaCaT]

Oh, yes, I noticed that too. If you just put the diff and pinion shaft in, they will scrape against each other. If you install the center housing and put the retaining clip on the bearing, it lifts the pinion shaft up a few mm, which should give plenty of clearance.

I was looking in to parts for my XD tranny 2 & 3rd syncros, and notice the the 3rd gear is the same for most toyotas with C5X, 2nd gear is for the XD and 09+ corollas and the 1st gear is unique to the XD. What can be the difference in them?

[CrankyOldMan]

I was looking in to parts for my XD tranny 2 & 3rd syncros, and notice the the 3rd gear is the same for most toyotas with C5X, 2nd gear is for the XD and 09+ corollas and the 1st gear is unique to the XD. What can be the difference in them?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking for. The difference in gear ratios, the difference between part numbers for identical rations, or something else?

[Jason@SportsCar]

The XD output shaft and ring gear are different to the Yaris, they are larger you can"t drop a Yaris diff into XD tranny also one thing to look at is that the XD output shaft bearing is wider its the one that is next to the DIff so I don"t know if it cahnges the case or if it's just a different bearing.

With the xD FD not really being an option due to bearing/shaft size, and I want to use my OS Giken LSD, I wonder if the 3.9 FD from the C150 in the Paseo would be a better option? I think that might only be a 6 bolt. How about the 4.0 from a C52?

[CrankyOldMan]

With the xD FD not really being an option due to bearing/shaft size, and I want to use my OS Giken LSD, I wonder if the 3.9 FD from the C150 in the Paseo would be a better option? I think that might only be a 6 bolt. How about the 4.0 from a C52?

I would stay away from the C15x series, since they're 6-bolt. Unfortunately, my research hasn't turned up anything in the C5x series with a ratio other than those on the Yaris and xB, but I've also never torn down a C52.

The output/pinion shaft bearing has the same OD, it's just a different ID. Easy to swap with a blind bearing puller. As far as overall dimensions go, the Matrix and Celica differentials seemed to fit just fine--the axial length between the taper bearings looks to be identical.

[Jason@SportsCar]

I would stay away from the C15x series, since they're 6-bolt. Unfortunately, my research hasn't turned up anything in the C5x series with a ratio other than those on the Yaris and xB, but I've also never torn down a C52.

The output/pinion shaft bearing has the same OD, it's just a different ID. Easy to swap with a blind bearing puller. As far as overall dimensions go, the Matrix and Celica differentials seemed to fit just fine--the axial length between the taper bearings looks to be identical.

Have you evaluated any of the S series boxes, like the S53 from the Celica?

[xnamerxx]

Jason you might want to look for the TRD 41201-NP100 final drive.
I believe the older AW11 MR2 and Celicas with the 4A-Fe engines used that final drive(4.058). Its a C52 so I'd imagine it would work.

[Jason@SportsCar]

Jason you might want to look for the TRD 41201-NP100 final drive.
I believe the older AW11 MR2 and Celicas with the 4A-Fe engines used that final drive(4.058). Its a C52 so I'd imagine it would work.

The TRD set has been listed as discontinued for years... Certainly its possible there is one out there, but good luck tracking it down.

[froger]

hello ,sorry to bother you guys but i have been successful in using the c60 celica gears in my yaris c50 ,i could only use gears three , four and five ,the shaft of the c 60 is the same as the c50 except it is a little longer (for sixth gear ) , i also used a 4.31 off a first gen xb. I have also swaped internals out of a 09 corolla c59 into a xd case to get 4.31 final and a closer 1st and 2nd gear. i didn't want to cut the frame to get a c60.

[xnamerxx]

Do the gears just press on or is there more work involved using the C60 3-4-5 gears?

[froger]

they just press in but i think you had to use the yaris synchros and sliding sleaves not the c60 celica ones