Car back from body shop....Dust in the paint?

[Hamster]

Hello everyone!

I need a little help here, especially opinions from experts (or at least, people who are really knowledgeable). I took my Yaris in to a body shop last month to get some panels resprayed. The car had been keyed by my oh-so-lovely former neighbors last year, so I finally decided to get it fixed. When I got the Yaris back from the body shop, well, let's just say it was incomplete. There were dozens of nibs on the lower portions of the panels. It was as if the person doing the wet-sanding was too lazy to bend down and do the lower parts of the car. Anyway, the owner fixed it, and the refinished panels are completely smooth to the touch. However, there is still visible dust particles under the clearcoat. The owner said that it's impossible for a respray to be entirely dust-free.

My question is, is this true? Is it true that dust under the clearcoat is inevitable? If it's unavoidable, how many particles per panel is acceptable? Or is the owner just BS'ing me because he doesn't want to re-do the work? I didn't go out and get a count, but it's got to be at the very least between two to four dozen or so bits of dirt/dust in each panel. If dust under the clearcoat is not acceptable under any circumstances, then this is a very frustrating situation. I took it to a bodyshop that's probably the most expensive in the state that I live in. It is a family-owned facility that mainly works on high-end European cars. Mainly BMW, but also Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari, etc., but they'll work on any car. They are supposed to be the best body shop in the state, but I'm trying to figure out if they screwed me over with sub-par work, or if it's just a matter of me not knowing what to expect. I would like to note that the other aspects of the work is excellent....no swirl marks, no sanding marks or runs, perfect color match, perfect orange peel match, and so forth. However, I think that the amount of dust is excessive, but I'm no expert.

If you guys think that the imperfections as I'm describing is unacceptable, how do you suggest I handle it? If there should be no dust whatsover, then I'm going to want them to re-do it, so I want to know how to handle it tactfully.

[roneezy360]

Pictures Please

[Hamster]

Sorry, not possible in this case....my camera doesn't have enough zoom. The dust is something you can only see up close. I'm hoping someone familiar with painting/body work can make a determination based on my description. I know that dust getting on the paint during a respray is a common problem. I just don't know what amount of debris, if any, is acceptable in a new clearcoat.

[marcus]

ur digicam should have macro shot option try that.

[Hamster]

Nope, once again, not possible. I've got a really simple, old digital camera. And by old, I mean I bought it seven or eight years ago. It doesn't have newfangled technology like macro shot options. Dang, I really need to get a new camera.

Anyway, I called the body shop today, and the owner told me that one (visible) dust particle per square foot is allowable. For anyone here familiar with auto paint, is this true? EDIT: In my original description, I wrote that there were 2-4 dozen particles per panel, but I may have exaggerated that. That was the case before the care was re-wet sanded, so there's not as much as before. I don't know, I have to run out and take a careful count. I'm trying to determine if it's true that one visible dust particle per square foot is allowed. Since there are a number of people on this forum knowledgeable about paint, and there are quite a few members who have been in accidents and got their cars at least partially re-painted, I'd like to know if it's unrealistic to expect an 100 percent flawless refinishing job.

[cali yaris]

The owner said that it's impossible for a respray to be entirely dust-free.

Wrong. I don't accept ANY dust when I get cars painted. You're paying for a dust-free, enclosed "clean room" in part..

Did you look at other cars they have painted? Same or different? I would never drop a car off at a bodyshop without looking at several examples of their work.

I'd like to know if it's unrealistic to expect an 100 percent flawless refinishing job.

It's realistic, for a price. You did not say how much you paid for this paint job. Mind sharing?

[Buddy Fan]

It is impossible to have a perfect, dust-free paint job. There are always contaminants in any paint job. There is, however, a way to have a dust-free paint job. There is a small dremel-like tool that most auto body shops have that they use to spot out dust, dirt and runs in the paint finish. Without pictures, it's impossible to tell how bad it is, but I would take it back and see what can be done. Just remember, if you got the $299 special, they aren't going to help you out one bit!

[BLOODY_STONE]

Easy .... Get a rubbing compound and some water .... rub the area with.both compound and water , and finally wax the polished area ...
This happens sometimes but the bodyshop is the one who's suppposed to do that b4 delivering ur car not you ....
Good luck

[A-Dingo-Ate-My-Baby]

It is impossible to have a perfect, dust-free paint job. There are always contaminants in any paint job.

wrong wrong wrong

ever hear of a downdraft paint booth w/filters, and painters who wear breathing suits and aren't slobs ?

[Hamster]

Thanks for all your help, everyone. Your answers have been great. Looking at my car again, it appears that there is about one piece or less of dust in the paint per square foot. The thing is that the dust I'm talking about sits between the base and the clearcoat. Therefore, you can't use rubbing and compound or wetsanding to get to it, since you'd burn right through the clearcoat. I'm sorry that I can't provide pictures, but the paint job is absolutely perfect except for the specks of dust here and there.

CaliYaris and BuddyFan, if you think the job was the $299 special, you must be kidding me. This place is the most expensive body shop in Ohio, and they don't do cheap jobs. They charge around $500 per panel for paint alone. The cost of getting the four keyed panels refinished was around $2,200. No joke. I was a fool and did not look at other complete paintjobs when I went to get estimates. I just figured that anyone who works on BMW's and Porsches would do a perfect job, since owners of such high-end cars wouldn't settle for less than good work. I did see their paint booth, though, and it is enclosed, and it has an air filtration system attached. In fact, the paint booth was imported from Germany.

Anyway, in the aforementioned phone conversation that I had with the owner, he told me that I paid for a "factory finish", and one dust particle per square foot is to be expected, since cars generally have imperfections in the paint jobs when they come out of the factory. He said that a absolutely, 100 percent, dust-free "showroom finish" completely free of imperfections costs around $1,000 per square foot. He's absolutely refusing to re-do the work, since he says there's nothing wrong with it. He says some imperfections (i.e. dust) is unavoidable. The owner said that he took a very careful look at the car when he re-wet sanded it after I found the nibs, and said that he didn't find anything out of the ordinary. So, it looks like I'm screwed. Since this body shop is outside of the direct repair network of my insurance company, my insurance company said there's nothing they can do.

I hate body shops. Given how expensive this place was and how the paint job isn't the 100percent flawless work that I expected it to be, I'm wishing that I just left my Yaris keyed.

[A-Dingo-Ate-My-Baby]

that guy you went to is nuts...he just hasn't invested in the right equipment.

go to someone who paints properly for a living and has the correct booths and
you can get flawless paint.

[Buddy Fan]

I wasn't implying that you got the Blue Light Special. All I was typing was that your level of expectations is/should be in line with what you paid. You clearly paid more than enough to have high expectations. The body shop guy sounds like a real Delta Bravo. I think it's not at all funny that he mentioned you paid for a "Factory finish" with its imperfections when you clearly paid for a perfect finish. Anyway, good luck with it. Don't let up on him and let everyone you know how disappointed you are with the shop's work.

[Hamster]

Thanks Buddy Fan And A-Dingo-Ate-My-Baby (ha, hah, I love that username!). I can't put in words how depressed I am right now. I paid a small fortune to get the paint fixed and it seems I just traded one problem for another. Since the owner's refusing to fix it, I bet that the only option would be to go to court. However, the cost of a lawyer, paying experts to testify, etc. would far exceed to cost to getting the work re-done. Looks like I'm just have to suck it up, save up some cash, and pay for someone else to fix it maybe a couple years down the road. I feel like I was really taken advantage of. Given that this place is supposed to be the best body shop in Ohio, I'm really shocked that the job is less than perfect. Maybe they were good in the past, but perhaps they're rushing jobs through or something. After spending all that money (which is probably more than one should spend on an entry-level car like a Yaris), and they had my car for nearly three weeks, there shouldn't be any obvious defects.

[mazilla]

Holy shit, $2,200 to re-spray a few panels half ass? :-/


Make sure you leave shitty review on Yelp(etc).

[KCALB SIRAY]

So, I am confused.....was there not a contract or agreement signed before said work was performed AND in that agreement there should be satisfaction/guarantee information as to the quality of the work performed?

What's the phone number there?

[KCALB SIRAY]

614-890-5099
got it, NM

[Hamster]

Yeah, I plan on leaving negative reviews on various sites, so that no one has to go through the emotional roller coaster than I'm going through right now.

I am madly in love with my car, and this whole situation just makes me want to break out into tears. I was so looking forward to getting the key scratches fixed. I wish I had just kept the insurance company's check and my deductible and gone on a cruise or something, rather than spending it on half-assed paintwork. My car's color is meteorite metallic, which as you guys know, is a light color. So the dust sticks out like sore thumb. And the car has just under 10,000 miles on the clock, so it's still basically brand new. Gee whiz, is there any decent body shop out there? The place I took my car to has a excellent reputation, which is why I took it there. I don't understand why this happened, or why the owner is handling it so poorly.

[Hamster]

So, I am confused.....was there not a contract or agreement signed before said work was performed AND in that agreement there should be satisfaction/guarantee information as to the quality of the work performed?

What's the phone number there?

Yep, that's the correct phone number. I signed a contract, but it just said that I agreed to pay the work at the agreed-upon price. Nothing about the quality of the work that is to be expected. This is the first car I've ever owned (I'm 26 years old), and the first time I've ever brought a car to a body shop, so maybe I'm young and naive. I just didn't know what to expect. EDIT: I just wanted to add that this wasn't done under the table or anything like that. I was just a typical customer.

[cali yaris]

First you said:

I didn't go out and get a count, but it's got to be at the very least between two to four dozen or so bits of dirt/dust in each panel.

Then:

Looking at my car again, it appears that there is about one piece or less of dust in the paint per square foot.

Two to four DOZEN to ONE or less? What just happened? :iono:

[WeeYari]

I've got a really simple, old digital camera. And by old, I mean I bought it seven or eight years ago. It doesn't have newfangled technology like macro shot options.

You really need to get pics up in this thread if you're starting to name the shop in a public attack.

Macro is not 'newgangled technology' as you put it. I have cameras way older than yours with macro exposure. Double check your camera for an exposure setting either on a dial or button represented by a flower. That is macro.

[KCALB SIRAY]

Where again did you say the keying was done? Not sure exactly where a "panel" is located as the car is full of them, and usually, a keying type incident is done at the waist level along the key as one walks by. Did you also get your rear bumper fixed while you were at it; those deep groves?

[ROCKLAND TOYOTA]

Pictures Please

x10000

[A-Dingo-Ate-My-Baby]

You really need to get pics up in this thread if you're starting to name the shop in a public attack.

Macro is not 'newgangled technology' as you put it. I have cameras way older than yours with macro exposure. Double check your camera for an exposure setting either on a dial or button represented by a flower. That is macro.

If you cannot get into MACRO mode, but you has the flower button....
if yer camera has ProgramAE mode, usually go to ProgramAE mode first, then macro button will work


I agree...now you are naming a shop, show us the paint job as it sits, and show us the flaws

[Hamster]

Cali Yaris, now that the car was re-wetsanded, I can now separate out what were nibs above the clearcoat, and which particles sat between the base and the clearcoat. I'd say one visible particle per square foot is average in terms of debris that sits under the clearcoat. Some panels have less debris than others. By the way, I keep calling this stuff dust, but I'm not sure what it really is. It looks more like little brown chunks of dirt.

The thing is, I can't tell who's right, or who's full of it. I spoke with an adjuster from my insurance company on the phone, and she said that even one visible particle would be unacceptable under their standards. She said that if there was any visible debris after a respray, and I had used one of their in-network shops, she would make the shop re-do it. Yet the owner of the body shop insists that everyone I spoke with is wrong, and that the acceptable standard is approximately one visible particle per square foot. So I am really confused, which is why I posted this thread in the first place. To see if there are any paint and body experts out there.

WeeYari and Rockland Toyota, I'm sorry, my digital camera definitely doesn't have the macro feature. However, I plan on getting a new digital camera real soon. So, when this thread dies down, I plan on reviving it. I understand that it's really hard for you guys to get an idea of what I'm talking about without pictures. I don't blame you. Too bad nobody here lives in Columbus, because I'd be more than happy to show it to an expert in person.

KCALB SIRAY, by panel, I mean the driver's side front door, driver's side back door, driver's side rear quarter panel, and the liftgate were keyed. The scratches were indeed at waist level, and were down to the white primer. And yes, I did get the back bumper refinished. I also got some door dings pulled out, and a couple other things done. I left this out so as not to complicate this thread. I wanted to focus on the insurance work done, since that was the bulk of it. Really, I spent around $3,000 at this place, a mix of out of pocket expenses and insurance money. Everything turned out great except for the debris under the clearcoat. I'm trying to figure out if I should be upset or not. If some dust or debris under the clearcoat is to be absolutely expected, then I really shouldn't be complaining.

[Hamster]

Some people here said that I shouldn't be naming the shop without back-up. Good point. I don't want to be sued for slander. I edited out the shop information in my post. I can re-post it once I put up pictures, should this situation not get resolved. If there is a problem, that is.

I swear to you all, I'll get a new digital camera soon. I have a Best Buy gift certificate that I need to use up!

[ROCKLAND TOYOTA]

WeeYari and Rockland Toyota, I'm sorry, my digital camera definitely doesn't have the macro feature. However, I plan on getting a new digital camera real soon. So, when this thread dies down, I plan on reviving it. I understand that it's really hard for you guys to get an idea of what I'm talking about without pictures. I don't blame you. Too bad nobody here lives in Columbus, because I'd be more than happy to show it to an expert in person.
.

its NOT a problem as i was busting balls and getting post counts. in my business i see paint defects a few times a month

Besides i love when cali chimes in with his 2 cents.....

[Hamster]

its NOT a problem as i was busting balls and getting post counts. in my business i see paint defects a few times a month

Besides i love when cali chimes in with his 2 cents.....

Wait, so is some trash and other such defects in the paint to be expected, even at the best body shops? If so, how much is acceptable, and is the one-visible-piece-per-square-foot-thing typical? This is really important for me to know. As I said, I'm not an expert. I really need to know if this body shop did me wrong or not. I would hate to harbor bad feelings towards them if this is truly the best anyone can do. And if I got this fixed someplace else, I would like to know if it would wind up looking exactly the same, or worse, anyway. I'd also like to know if I should continue to use this body shop, since it's always good to have a good one on hand in case of an accident, or even just to get future door dings fixed. As mentioned before, I'm totally clueless about what defects in a new paint job is acceptable. All I know is that I can see them.

Rockland Toyota, since you know what to look for, can you describe the typical, acceptable paint defects on refinished cars that have come through your dealership? Feel free to use technical words. If I don't understand, I'll just ask you for a definition. Do such defects affect the value of the car at all?

[A-Dingo-Ate-My-Baby]

Wait, so is some trash and other such defects in the paint to be expected, even at the best body shops? If so, how much is acceptable, and is the one-visible-piece-per-square-foot-thing typical?

Best body shops ?
No and no.

You got a raw deal (and a line of BS) from someone who did not prep correctly, or even worse, painted it outdoors
(by outdoors I mean outside a paint booth). That is all there is to it. Is it acceptable to you ? it could be or it could not be. It is your car.

[KCALB SIRAY]

You spent 3G's for a respray...and insurance as part of that...SMH...

[cali yaris]

Besides i love when cali chimes in with his 2 cents.....

I'm flattered. :biggrin: Here's two more cents...

So, when this thread dies down, I plan on reviving it.

Please, no!

[KCALB SIRAY]

...plastic dipsticks...

[mazilla]

Next time, take a piece of the 3K and buy yourself a 100.00 camera. ;)

[Hamster]

Cali Yaris, you have nothing to worry about, this thread is not going to be revived. Had I been able to take pictures, it's likely this this matter would have been resolved pretty quickly. I feel really stupid and embarrassed right now. I'll explain.

In the two weeks since I got my car back, I had only seen it under bright sunlight. I went out to my garage today in order to get an exact count of the dirt specks. Today, it's been cloudy and rainy for the first time in a while. Therefore, I was able to see my car under completely different lighting conditions.

Turns out that what I thought was specks of dirt was actually clumps of metallic pieces that formed little round balls. These balls slighly raised the paint above them To my untrained eye, they appeared as dust or little chunks of dirt sitting between the base and the clear. Under more muted light, I was finally able to see what they actually were. When I got picked up the car, I was told that it's impossible for a body shop to exactly replicate the way a robot at the factory sprays on metallic pieces in the paint. Therefore, imperfections are inevitable in a respray. In some spots, the metallic pieces look like black specks. But, now I can see that they also formed clumps here and there, and I had mistaken them for dirt when looking at it under very bright sunlight. No wonder the owner refused to re-do it. When he referred to one piece of dirt per square foot, he was probably referring to defects that can only been seen with a maginifying glass. I just wish the owner had spent a few minutes pointing out and explaining away all the imperfections. Looks like the whole thing was a breakdown in communication. I got angry over nothing, and I feel really silly. So, if anyone here owns a meterorite metallic Yaris and you need a respray at some point, have the body shop point out and explain the imperfections in the metallic when you get your car back. This way, you won't wind up fretting over nothing like I did.

One thing I'm confused about, though. The metallic chunks, the ones I thought were dirt, often appear far away from the site of the original scratch. I thought that new color/basecoat was only sprayed at the site of the damage, and then the whole panel is re-cleared. Or is the color coat sprayed on the entire panel? Could someone explain, in layman's terms, how key scratches are fixed?