Carbon Buildup = Fuel Injection Flush???

[zfarsh]

I have a Yaris 2009, automatic transmission, and i am at 90,000 km on it. Went for check-up (maintenance every 16k and it cost 120$ and includes oil change), and they tell me I need the following:

1) Brake Fluid Flush = 100 $ (ok I do have ABS, maybe i do need this???)

2 a) Fuel Injector Efi Flush = 175 $
2 b) Throttle Body Service = 50 $ (no idea what this means)

3) Air Filter change = 60$ (did it myself for 20 $)

There is carbon buildup, and toyota service is telling me i need to the the Fuel Injector Flush and the Throttle Body Service, all of which i have no idea what it is, and i dont see it in the service manual as a requirement. I have always been using cheap gas (87oct) and never tried any additatives, and always getting oil change by Toyota (ie no idea what kind of oil i am getting).

Pls guide me on what i should do. I am not mechanically inclined, but want to start learning being more independant.

[jambo101]

Sounds to me like your dealer wants to make some extra cash at your expense..
I would forget about the brake flush,the fuel injector flush,and the throttle body service as they are all unnecessary..
The lower octane gas has all the quality of the higher octane gas,its just formulated to detonate at a different temperature and is what the engineers designed the car to run on..
At this point you may want to search for an honest private mechanic as he will be much cheaper than the dealer and not try to sell you stuff you dont need..

[Klink10]

Well answered.

[Bernie P.]

I've never heard of flushing out the brake lines or anything else other than the radiator but it's not a bad idea to drain/refill all the fluid's about every 60k.Same goes for steering,tranny and transfer case fluids.At least that's what's recommended in the maintenance section of my Chilton manual.

[CTScott]

Flushing the brake fluid once in a while is not a bad idea, since brake fluid is alcohol based and tends to absorb water, which makes it way down to the calipers and corrodes them.

To do so only costs the price of a container of brake fluid and only takes a couple of minutes to do. You basically keep the fluid reservoir topped off, while bleeding all four brakes until what comes out looks like what you are putting in.

[A-Dingo-Ate-My-Baby]

always flush the brakes at 60,000 or later

the danger is corroded brake lines or sudden lockup

brake fluid absorbs water over time, and if too much builds
up, and the brake fluid gets hot (which it does all the time),
a tipping point can be reached where a tiny bubble of steam will
form in the brake line and lock your brakes suddenly in the middle
of hard braking, sending you off a cliff. rare, but real.

[zfarsh]

ok, thanks guys. One thing i forgot to mention is that is it automatic transmission. I am a bit confused about all this, as there are different answers.

However, I am guessing the Brake Fluid might not be bad because of the ABS (but it is not in the maintenance manual, so i wasnt 100% sure, and I am a newb). Still waiting to hear more responses. Now, it looked complicated doing it myself from what i have seen in pictures / videos, but will relook at that and see if i can find it for a yaris. Anyways, the 100$ brake fluid is not that huge.

However, what is huge is the Fluid Injector Flush and the Throtling Body Service. They say there is carbon buildup and it is recommended i flush these out and do the maintenance at 89,000 km. I know Jambo101 said i dont need it. Would like to hear a bit more on this subject, and why i dont need or why do i need it. What is this issue anyways. Again, I have never started using additives yet to my fuel (some say it is good, others say it is bad), and dont know if this will remove the carbon build-up, and i dont even know if carbon build-up is serious and needs to be addressed quickly. Again, would appreciate your thoughts and detailed reasoning. Has anybody been told this by the dealer / mecahnic before?

[CTScott]

ok, thanks guys. One thing i forgot to mention is that is it automatic transmission. I am a bit confused about all this, as there are different answers.

However, I am guessing the Brake Fluid might not be bad because of the ABS (but it is not in the maintenance manual, so i wasnt 100% sure, and I am a newb). Still waiting to hear more responses. Now, it looked complicated doing it myself from what i have seen in pictures / videos, but will relook at that and see if i can find it for a yaris. Anyways, the 100$ brake fluid is not that huge.

However, what is huge is the Fluid Injector Flush and the Throtling Body Service. They say there is carbon buildup and it is recommended i flush these out and do the maintenance at 89,000 km. I know Jambo101 said i dont need it. Would like to hear a bit more on this subject, and why i dont need or why do i need it. What is this issue anyways. Again, I have never started using additives yet to my fuel (some say it is good, others say it is bad), and dont know if this will remove the carbon build-up, and i dont even know if carbon build-up is serious and needs to be addressed quickly. Again, would appreciate your thoughts and detailed reasoning. Has anybody been told this by the dealer / mecahnic before?


The fuel injector and throttle body cleaning are really likely to not be needed. If the throttle body had significant carbon deposits you would notice the engine running a bit rough. The same basically goes for the injectors.

Don't let them talk you into doing a fluid change on the automatic transmission either, unless it is on their nickel.

Things like these are how the dealer makes serious money on service. After my father retired from his engineering career, a friend of his that owned a car dealership convinced him to be the service manager. My father went back into retirement in less than a year because he refused to "play the game" of constantly trying to sell people services that their cars didn't need.

[zfarsh]

Hi CTScott, thanks for the response, just curious what you meant by the following:

"Don't let them talk you into doing a fluid change on the automatic transmission either, unless it is on their nickel. "

Do you mean the Transmission Fluid Flush? If so, i was on the impression that this required to be changed at around 100,000 km as per the manual, for a automatic transmission car. Isnt the life time for that fluid about 100k? Pls let me know as i was going to get that done at my next oil change visit in 8,000 km.

[CTScott]

Hi CTScott, thanks for the response, just curious what you meant by the following:

"Don't let them talk you into doing a fluid change on the automatic transmission either, unless it is on their nickel. "

Do you mean the Transmission Fluid Flush? If so, i was on the impression that this required to be changed at around 100,000 km as per the manual, for a automatic transmission car. Isnt the life time for that fluid about 100k? Pls let me know as i was going to get that done at my next oil change visit in 8,000 km.

In the US service booklet that came with my 09, AT fluid is only inspected, not changed. The Toyota AT WS fluid is intended to be a "lifetime" fluid. It is probably not a bad idea to go ahead and change it around 100k miles, but 100k km is really early.

[A-Dingo-Ate-My-Baby]

The fuel injector and throttle body cleaning are really likely to not be needed. If the throttle body had significant carbon deposits you would notice the engine running a bit rough. The same basically goes for the injectors.

Don't let them talk you into doing a fluid change on the automatic transmission either, unless it is on their nickel.

Things like these are how the dealer makes serious money on service. After my father retired from his engineering career, a friend of his that owned a car dealership convinced him to be the service manager. My father went back into retirement in less than a year because he refused to "play the game" of constantly trying to sell people services that their cars didn't need.

know what ?

how does it run now ?

obtain 2 bottles of either Chevron Techron, or BG44K, (--no other brands or types !!--) and run 2 tanks of gas through the Yaris, one bottle a tank.

make at least some 50 mile trips on those runs...

does the Yaris run better ? it should run a bit smoother.

[zfarsh]

CTScott: Oh wow, i thought it was supposed to be changed at 100,000 km, not 100k miles!!! that is a huge difference. I see i have the wrong maintenance menu, for a Toyota 2006 Yaris, not a Toyota 2009, so I will have to find it for that. However, the Toyota Service center has however provided their schudule for Yaris 2009, and it says that at 96,000 km, i should replace the Automatic Transmission Fluid. I may have to start calling a couple of Toyota Service Centers to get this cleared up. The second change of transmission oil is indicated at 192,000 km.... I am wandering if we are getting screwed in Canada with the numbers.

A-Dino-Eat-My-Baby: : Thanks. Ok, so how does it work. Fill up one bottle for a filled tank. Do about 50 miles or more, then put another bottle, or wait for tank to be half full, fill it up, then add the second bottle? Not sure when to use second bottle.

[The Limo]

Hi zfarsh
For the automatic transmission fluid change, the problem is what Toyota Canada says and what Toyota in the U.S. says is two different things.
In the Toyota Owner's Manual Supplement (page 23) its says "Replace transmission fluid every 72 months/96,000 Km".
In the Toyota Owner's Manual (page 284) it says "Generally, it is necessary to change automatic transmission fluid only if your vehicle is driven under one of the Special Operatiing Conditions listed in your Owners Manual Supplement". These are (page 24):
1. Short trips of less than 5 Km ( or 8 Km in temperatures below 0C).
2. Trailer towing or frequent mountainous driving.
3. Driving on dusty or muddy roads.
In the U.S. Toyota TSB dated June 28, 2007 it says (page 2): 100,000 (mile) Maintenance interval - inspection only. ATF-WS does NOT require any flushing or changing during the life of the vehicle. (I don't have access to the American Owner's Manual).

So I can understand why you are confused on this issue. And why you would get a different answer from our American friends.

Good luck with your decision on this.
Roy

[CTScott]

^Ah, that does explain it. Toyota believes that all of your Canadians are crazy drivers.

The reality is probably completely centered around marketing. In the US it is a huge plus to sell a car that requires no maintenance for 100,000 miles.

[Yury]

Throttle body service is a good thing because it does indeed get dirty. If you feel your mileage is not what it used to be that'd be the first thing I'd try. My 08 has barely 25k on the clock and the mileage was pretty bad until I cleaned the tb. How bad? How about 24 mpg (used to get that with V6 accord). The carbon build up was obvious when I took the tb out.
Same experience with my Prelude, mileage went up noticeably.
50$ for that seems reasonable.

[digitalrain]

I would definitely go for the brake fluid flush. Water vapour in the brake fluid can corrode your brake sysytem with more expensive repairs in the future.

The charge for the air filter is too much. Should always do yourself if you can. Also if you can top up your fluids before taking it in for service you can save yourself "shop charges" for the fluids.

[zfarsh]

Hi Yuri. For the Throttle body job that is 50$, i wouldnt have minded if this was done alone, however, the service center is telling me they cannot do that unless they do the Fluid Injector Flush which is 175 $ on top of the 50$.

[zfarsh]

so guys, living in Canada and having driven 90,000 km, should i (or when should i) do the Fuel Injector Flush and the Throttle Body, to remove the carbon buildup and whatever else benifit it may give, at 175 $ + 50 $ (no, i am not rich, far from it), or should i try the Chevron Techron method? Will this remove the carbon build-up...is it even bad to have the carbon build-up?

[WeeYari]

Get out into the country and go WOT for a bit.

I don't know what your driving habits are, but addressable carbon buildup on an '09 dosen't seem right. I've never addressed it, and my tb is sparkling after 5 yrs/150,000km.

[johnny_vitz]

so guys, living in Canada and having driven 90,000 km, should i (or when should i) do the Fuel Injector Flush and the Throttle Body, to remove the carbon buildup and whatever else benifit it may give, at 175 $ + 50 $ (no, i am not rich, far from it), or should i try the Chevron Techron method? Will this remove the carbon build-up...is it even bad to have the carbon build-up?

You COULD, but unless there is an issue with the way the car runs or excessive carbon build up, there is no reason you HAVE to. You will always get different answers on here. I work in a private shop in Burlington, ON. I would only every recommend either of those services if there is an issue to fix (I get paid hourly, not by how many services I sell). At a dealership, most tech's are paid flat rate, which means they get paid per job, which means the more jobs they "sell" the more money they are paid.

You can clean the throttle body (If it is dirty) without doing an injector flush, and add a "fuel system cleaner" to your next tank of gas or two. That will cost you $75 and do a good job cleaning up any dirt that is in your injectors. That is what I would do.

Also, a brake flush is a good idea, but if it's only a 2009, it really doesn't need to be done yet. I would wait another year or two on that one

[red 5 door]

:cool:I use seafoam in the tank of our fleet trks,for 100,000 mile intake and thbdy clean,i use the spray type seafoam and wear saftey glasses,remove the airbox and ductwork and engine off,hold open throttle and spray inside and all arround in the throttlebody,let soak,if real bad use a old toothbrush and scrub,put all back together,might have to apply throttle to start and rev up a cupple times to clean out.should run much better,seafoam has 3 type,spray,liquid,transtune,all about $6-7 at napa and most auto parts store,can also be used as a fuel stabilizer for storage,hope this helps ya.:thumbup::headbang:

[Ratz]

I have a Yaris 2009, automatic transmission, and i am at 90,000 km on it. Went for check-up (maintenance every 16k and it cost 120$ and includes oil change), and they tell me I need the following:

1) Brake Fluid Flush = 100 $ (ok I do have ABS, maybe i do need this???)

2 a) Fuel Injector Efi Flush = 175 $
2 b) Throttle Body Service = 50 $ (no idea what this means)

3) Air Filter change = 60$ (did it myself for 20 $)

There is carbon buildup, and toyota service is telling me i need to the the Fuel Injector Flush and the Throttle Body Service, all of which i have no idea what it is, and i dont see it in the service manual as a requirement. I have always been using cheap gas (87oct) and never tried any additatives, and always getting oil change by Toyota (ie no idea what kind of oil i am getting).

Pls guide me on what i should do. I am not mechanically inclined, but want to start learning being more independant.

Brake fluid flush is a good idea as indicated by other members.

Unless you are chasing a problem like rough running, rough idle or heavy fuel consumption, I would not spend money on fuel injection flush and throttle body cleaning. You are not causing any harm and can have it done if any problems will develop in the future. Using Chevron gas with Techron if available in your part of the world is all you need. Yes the throttle body does get dirty and can be cleaned without fuel injection flush. (If you are told differently I would look for someone else to service your car).

One service I would consider doing is Mass Airflow Sensor cleaning described here http://www.yarisclubuk.com/index.php/knowledge-base/maf-sensor-cleaning/ . Again not necessary if there is no problems.

Dropping the pan on the transmission and changing filter and topping the oil is a good idea. All the material from polished clutch plates and metal from wear in planetary gears and other moving parts, lessens the oil flow through the filter. I would do this only once, likely at your mileage and then you should be good for life of the car. I would also want to be present when the pan is dropped and take a photo of the debris in the pan as the oil is slowly poured out from the pan. Many times you may find a little pieces of metal, which are flushed out from valve body and are left in there from manufacturing. Then some crooked guy may tell you that your transmission is worn and try to sell you a rebuild job. If this happens, tell him/her to proceed with the job and post the photo.

Good luck.

[zfarsh]

Thanks for all your comments, i do appreciate it. I will go to look for Chevron Techron or BG44K to see if i can find it. I find that it is consuming more fuel than usual, i would say a 15% to 30 % drop i think.

[Yury]

^ in that case throttle body and MAF cleaning for sure. In my experience even a bit of buildup in the tb hurts mileage noticeably.
You can clean MAF yourself, very easy. Throttle body is easy too, but not as easy.

[Ratz]

Thanks for all your comments, i do appreciate it. I will go to look for Chevron Techron or BG44K to see if i can find it. I find that it is consuming more fuel than usual, i would say a 15% to 30 % drop i think.

Forgot to add. Toyota uses ATF WS in my 2011 automatic transmission, which I believe is a synthetic oil (quite dear). Make sure you find what oil is used in your application. As you will not be able to get all the oil out it may be a good idea to use what is the same or compatible with what you got.

One more thing, you are not in the hurry, ask about, take your time, do a research on the internet, do not take anybody’s word for anything. There is lot of honest good people around, but even they make UN-intentional mistakes. Like president Nixon said “Trust but verify". But that is another story.

:smile:
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