SCCA H Stock

[NJ Drive]

After searching for months and months and hoping a 5 speed SE would turn up around my area, I was finally able to pick one up yesterday.

This car will serve double duty as a daily driver and autocrosser.
Initially I was going to set this car up to run in the SCCA's new STF class, but already having campaigned an STR S2000 nationally, I wanted to keep this car civil. So into H(oosier) Stock it goes. I'll probably run it at a couple National Tours this year and keep attending Pros with my Evo X.

The Mini is a tough cookie to overcome in H Stock but I would be satisfied just being a pain in the ass to anyone who shows up for now.

I just ordered the 23mm UR bar for the back to loosen things up- hopefully it arrives before next Saturday's test and tune. Toyota also specs three different size crash bolts for the front, so needless to say I'll be going with the most narrow of them all.

I'm very satisfied with my purchase and can't wait to start tinkering with this car.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7052/6972722979_2610162ecc_b.jpg

[xnamerxx]

I think you're going to have a tough time in H Stock with a lack of a LSD, torque vectoring or otherwise.

Any thoughts on what shocks you plan on running? Those Koni DA seem to kill nationally but I haven't seen anything pop up for the Yaris yet. The Yaris does have a nice weight advantage going for it, but I just have a hard time seeing how it can overcome Mini's brake assisted diff and 15hp advantage along with much better gearing.

I think ST FWD would be a bit easier to make a street driven national car vs H stock simply because your competitors have the same disadvantage that you do although the initial investment is a bit higher the recurring costs are going to be lower due to not having to hit the R-Comp crack pipe every 20-50 runs.

[ilikerice]

Obviously money isn't that big of an issue if you are running and EVO X in pro national events, so buying Rcomps for this little guy wont be a problem..

I will agree though, H stock will be tough without LSD. I ran H stock last year with 225/50/15 Khumo V710. too much wheel spin coming out of corners. I decided to go with ST class but now the rules have changed, and STF is perfect for the yaris now. .794 pax... cant beat that.

Either way, its fun and you will get alot of jaw drops after the first run or 2. Good luck and have fun

[Jason@SportsCar]

The HS Mini his an open diff. Moving to STF does not get you away from the more powerful Mini, and now you get to drop over $2k on engine management if you want to make power.

With the crash bolts the Yaris is not hard on R tires. And for no other reason than Street Tire Suck, HS is a good move.

[xnamerxx]

Mini's do have the open diff but it has a system that applies the brakes to the wheel that's spinning to transfer torque to the one that's not. It's not as good as a mechanical system but its better than nothing at all. The new Ford Focus uses a similar system I think the VW range does as well but I could be wrong about that.

In either case keep us updated on how the car performs, it should make for some fun reads when a Yaris mushroom stamps some of the competition.


Jason I saw you out at Cal speed back in Jan your car is quick you were what seemed to be a few seconds ahead of the dueling Fits. That was a good race between those 2 fits.

[Jason@SportsCar]

Mini's do have the open diff but it has a system that applies the brakes to the wheel that's spinning to transfer torque to the one that's not. It's not as good as a mechanical system but its better than nothing at all. The new Ford Focus uses a similar system I think the VW range does as well but I could be wrong about that.

In either case keep us updated on how the car performs, it should make for some fun reads when a Yaris mushroom stamps some of the competition.


Jason I saw you out at Cal speed back in Jan your car is quick you were what seemed to be a few seconds ahead of the dueling Fits. That was a good race between those 2 fits.
EDLC is horrible, it is the equivalent of not being able to turn off the TC. It applies the brake to the spinning tire, but does not actually transfer power. It was not added to the Mini until 2010, and the cars winning in Solo a pre EDLC cars.

I have run a lot of cars with that system, and have yet to find one that does not slow you down. The dynamics in autox are so fast that most of these E nannies are a hindrance. The Mini offers great power, better rear suspension and good gearing, that makes it a winner.

The biggest downside to the Yaris in HS is shocks, going to have to custom to get the good stuff.

[NJ Drive]

As far as shocks/struts go, there isn't much besides going custom.

One sorta plug-and-play option is to pick up a set of H&R coilovers, fab some stock spring perches, and have them revalved by Bilstein(around $75/corner). The non-adjustability and entry price of them at first glance sucks but I'd imagine it being a solution that is somewhat cost-effective. The total extended lengths have to within +/- 1" of the stockers so that must be checked out.

Part of what I do for a living is force measurement setup, calibrations, etc. so validating the stock SE spring rates are no problem.

I have a set of Intercomp pads that I can use to forward whatever corner weights are present using stock perch heights. I would expect motion ratios in front to be just under 1:1 being a McStrut. As far as torsion beams go, I'm in the dark as far as calculating any kind of usable motion ratios.

Talking base Mini Coopers, yes some have EDLC but like Jason mentioned, on Hoosiers, I'm uncertain if it provides a solid advantage. Fortunately I have some of the best HS competition in and around our region so the measuring stick will be real.

I hate bench racing and just like to go at it.

I'm open for other suggestions regarding shocks/struts.

[Jason@SportsCar]

I'm open for other suggestions regarding shocks/struts.

AST built ours. :thumbsup: I seem to recall Brian saying the rears were easy, typical pin on one end eyelet on the other, there was some reference to an E30 BMW in there - this was a couple of years ago so the details are foggy. The fronts are similar to an MR2 rear.

[seth_man]

I'm open for other suggestions regarding shocks/struts.


bmw e46 non-m3 rear shocks are a bolt in for the yaris rear, ive personally been using function form type 2 e46 rears. @ $100 each they are way less expensive that many other alternatives. also '04 -up wrx koni front inserts fit well in stuck strut tubes and megan coilover shock tubes

[NJ Drive]

Wow, that was fast and both excellent bits of info! I'm on it.

[NJ Drive]

Ended up ordering Tokico HTS for shocks from Garm @ MicroImageOnline this afternoon. Bolt-on proposition, adjustable(albeit single), lifetime warranty. I found a few Koni SAs and DAs that would work in the back, and the MR Spyder's rear struts do look eerily similar to the Yaris fronts, but I just wanted to tap the 'EASY' button for now.

The other day, I put the car on scales after installing the 23mm UR rear bar.
With no spare or floor mats and an almost-full tank of gas it was perfectly cross-weighted from Toyota, haha.

1170 lbs LF-RR, 1170 lbs RF-LR

With me in the driver's seat it was still within ~18lbs, not bad.
I don't know how low these cars run before fuel starve so if anyone can relay their fuel load when competing on sticky tires, I'm all ears.

Also, having a 16" x 6" stock wheel sucks. They're not bad at 16lbs each, but I could easily save 20lbs in total wheel weight alone on this car in a more common size. I've contacted wheel specialists who widen/narrow wheels and was quoted $600. That would be in addition to the $1500 for the wheels.
No thanks... not right now! :laugh:

[why?]

there is no fuel starve. There is fuel run out and nothing left. The Yaris gets every bit it possibly can and leaves nothing left to restart the car with.

[xnamerxx]

On shit street tires I've run the car as low as ~2 gals of gas without any issues but I wasn't seeing any more than .92g according to the vbox.
My cross weights were crap before I put the coilovers on but my weight is a hundred or so lbs below yours.

Are you allowed to use the 14" wheel size from the 07s in Stock?

[NJ Drive]

In stock classes, you must use whatever size wheels are offered for a particular model, model year, and trim. They must also be factory installed or a port-installed option- no dealer installs allowed. So 2012 SEs must use 16" x 6", +/-0.25" of the factory offset.

[ilikerice]

I take it you probably going to go STF class eventually since you want smaller rims and larger offset

[NJ Drive]

No.

This car serves as a daily driver, first and foremost. A fully prep'd STF car will cost 3x to 4x as much to do, and it'll wear on you especially with the roads around here. This is only the second car in 19 years where the stock catback isn't coming off. :biggrin:

[xnamerxx]

are the Rota 16's from the minis the correct size and offset for the yaris? I think that should net you a lbs or two from each wheel certainly not much but its cheapish.

[ilikerice]

no, rota's are 7" wide. will put you in STF, unless you put Rcomps on, then that will throw you in FSP

[NJ Drive]

A little data to chew on from this weekend:

A national-level competitor in a Kia Rio who's been excluded from STF on the basis that it is just too strong of a car wanted to compare runs to the Yaris. His car was bone stock running on the fuel light- my car was stock except for the rear bar, running with 3/4 tank of fuel.

He took three runs and ran consistently 76.1-76.2
I took four runs and ran 76.6, 76.2, 75.1, 74.1

Next event isn't til the end of the month but at least the car will have everything installed by then and a real alignment.

[xnamerxx]

That's damn impressive, is the Kia also running H stock or is he running ST/C?

[NJ Drive]

That's damn impressive, is the Kia also running H stock or is he running ST/C?

He wanted to prep for STF, but that got sidelined since the Kia Rio has been put into STC(which is appropriate because the '89-'91 Civic Si rules that class). He's going to continue running BS with his S2000.

[NJ Drive]

Changing gears a bit... will run RTF(Road Tire FWD) this year instead, to support of SCCA's new supplemental classes.

Ran the Evo in RTA where I finished 2nd at the DC Pro last weekend. Now I get to run the Yaris since the stock Evo Bilsteins are finally getting sent out for a revalve.

Going to run shaved Star Specs in 205/50/16.

[xnamerxx]

Well going to give you some more info about fuel starvation. I ran my car at 1 gal today seeing a 1.02-.05g with elevation changes and didn't run into any problems regarding starvation but I feel running lower than that you'll run into issues.

Not sure if your year car has the same shitty gearing as mine but it might be better to run the 45's rather than the 50's to gain a bit better gearing.

[NJ Drive]

I've thought about using R1Rs in 205/45/16, but won't get the wear or performance out of them I'm looking for, especially shaved. If it were the magical 195/50/15 however...

The RE11s come in that size too but are $200 more per set. I've been using Star Specs since 2008 on four different cars and they are the best all-arounder on the market IMO.

Thanks for the feedback on fuel too!

[NJ Drive]

Ran my first event in RTF this past weekend.

Finished 0.8 seconds behind one of the fastest Mini guys in our region after 3 runs, 1.0 second behind after 6 runs.

Dumbass me forgot the Tokico 3mm hex tool to adjust damping so I was stuck running 1.5 turns from full stiff in the rear, 3.5 turns from full stiff in the front.

The way the car handled I would have rather bumped the fronts up while lowering the rears but that'll have to wait until next time.

http://autox4u.zenfolio.com/p236877943/e3920b430 (http://autox4u.zenfolio.com/p236877943/e3920b430)
http://autox4u.zenfolio.com/p236877943/e29279b42
http://autox4u.zenfolio.com/p236877943/e3a01a89b

I hate using five letters for classification, but apparently it makes life easier for our regional timing and scoring to PAX us.

Going to dial out all the rear toe in, maybe to a hint of toe out next. Front is set at zero toe.
Also still need to play with the front subframe. Front camber ended up at -1.3°L and -1.8°R using the crash bolts and sitting in the car. Was -1.5°L, -1.6°R without me.

[Jason@SportsCar]

Going to dial out all the rear toe in, maybe to a hint of toe out next.

How do you intend to address this within the stock class framework? The FSM only gives specs for front crash bolts, no rear adjustment procedure is listed.

[NJ Drive]

No shims for the rear hubs? If that's true that sucks.

[xnamerxx]

Careful application of BFH might be legal.

[ilikerice]

nice tripod pic..

[NJ Drive]

So alignment debacles aside, I've been talking with SCCA's Brian Harmer and Doug Gill regarding the air filter(s) in the Yaris airbox.

After forwarding pictures to both parties, Doug has concluded that it would be legal to remove one or both, provided the gasket(which only resides on the removable filter) stays in place so no other openings are present when the airbox is closed.

[Golddeenoh]

you slinging around pretty nicely, I see you are ride'n on 3 wheels a good bit there.

[Jason@SportsCar]

If you want to change rear toe you just need to get creative like Mazda did with its B-Spec kit for the 2. The rear "swaybar" just happens to be of a design that lets you adjust toe. Don't let that "may serve no other purpose" language get in the way. lol

Top image closer to production piece:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-mFY8fJOApwM/T6qeTpb9c3I/AAAAAAAAA3g/hnFabrhNO9c/s1152/2012-02-21_12-46-11_874.jpg

This was an earlier prototype:
http://photos.motoiq.com/MotoIQ/Features/TESTED-B-Segment-Honda-Fit-and/i-BD9VBr7/0/L/jsn-077-L.jpg

[NJ Drive]

Very nice Jason. Setting the toe with that bar would be easy peasy!

I'd love to iimplement something like that back there in conjunction with the already present UR rear bar, but would like to make it look as a unit. Or just delete the UR bar altogether since this might trump having a typical rear sway bar anyway.

[Jason@SportsCar]

Very nice Jason. Setting the toe with that bar would be easy peasy!

I'd love to iimplement something like that back there in conjunction with the already present UR rear bar, but would like to make it look as a unit. Or just delete the UR bar altogether since this might trump having a typical rear sway bar anyway.

Unfortunately there is not a real "swaybar" on the market for these cars, everything out there is just a torsion bar that attempts to stiffen the beam, there is nothing countering the movement like with a traditional swaybar. That is part of the reason we don't run one, just dead weight, the same thing can be accomplished in a better way for our application - we just went with really short shocks that stop the excessive droop, but they are shorter than you could use in stock class.

Now it would be really interesting to see what could be done with a speedway style rear bar, actually attached to the body that counters the suspension movement. :drool:

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/375440_202575516493089_121206524629989_416995_9124 10310_n.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg12/BanzaiBeast/CRX%20Progress/100_2100.jpg

If you want over-steer just mix tires... Fresh slicks on the front with rears that corded by then end of a 4-lap qualifying session. It was intense. :laugh:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7082/7166570368_183384bc82_c.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8150/7166573822_aa54dbdae2_c.jpg

[NJ Drive]

What does a bar like the one on the Mazda 2 do to the toe dynamically?

It'll stay the same length when the torsion beam twists which would probably do some really funky things to the alignment with the amount of shock travel I have.

Love the exhaust pictured above too.

[racerb]

Ok let's just say I want to run my '10 Yaris in H-Stock, well at my age the SCCA Stock class rules are more confusing than ever. If I get this straight I can add a rear swaybar, drop-in air filter, adjustable shocks w/stock hieght perches, crash bolts, after market brake pads, and R-Compound tires. But what about brake rotors, can you use after market, as in slotted and/or cross drilled rotors (stock diameter of coarse)? Oh and did I also see that the traction-control can be dis-abled? The last time I ran Stock classes, the cars were just that, stock with very limited R-Compound tires in use. In fact I won an E-Stock and D-Stock club Championship with totally stock vehicles, only changed tires.

Hate to sound so stupid but, went Road Racing years ago and kinda lost touch with the Auto-X side of things, any help would be great!!

racerb :iono:

[xnamerxx]

Ok let's just say I want to run my '10 Yaris in H-Stock, well at my age the SCCA Stock class rules are more confusing than ever. If I get this straight I can add a rear swaybar, drop-in air filter, adjustable shocks w/stock hieght perches, crash bolts, after market brake pads, and R-Compound tires. But what about brake rotors, can you use after market, as in slotted and/or cross drilled rotors (stock diameter of coarse)? Oh and did I also see that the traction-control can be dis-abled? The last time I ran Stock classes, the cars were just that, stock with very limited R-Compound tires in use. In fact I won an E-Stock and D-Stock club Championship with totally stock vehicles, only changed tires.

Hate to sound so stupid but, went Road Racing years ago and kinda lost touch with the Auto-X side of things, any help would be great!!

racerb :iono:

I think Jason will know better than anyone else here but my understanding of the rules, you can put whatever shocks you want as long as they retain the stock perch, you can change brake pads, you can change rotors as long as they weigh the same or more than stock and are the same diameter. As for traction control I believe it can be disabled via switch if available but it cannot be disabled via fuse but don't quote me on the traction control i'm not totally positive on that.

[racerb]

Thanks for the reply, most of this is just what I thought, am really most curious about the TC on these cars. I've heard lots of horror stories about the Electronic Grannies taking control and all sorts of bells and flashing dash lights going off. I kinda like to drive by the seat of my pants, so this does not sound very appealing to me!!

racerb :frown:

[Jason@SportsCar]

Ok let's just say I want to run my '10 Yaris in H-Stock, well at my age the SCCA Stock class rules are more confusing than ever. If I get this straight I can add a rear swaybar, drop-in air filter, adjustable shocks w/stock hieght perches, crash bolts, after market brake pads, and R-Compound tires. But what about brake rotors, can you use after market, as in slotted and/or cross drilled rotors (stock diameter of coarse)? Oh and did I also see that the traction-control can be dis-abled? The last time I ran Stock classes, the cars were just that, stock with very limited R-Compound tires in use. In fact I won an E-Stock and D-Stock club Championship with totally stock vehicles, only changed tires.

Hate to sound so stupid but, went Road Racing years ago and kinda lost touch with the Auto-X side of things, any help would be great!!

racerb :iono:

The rules for stock class have not changed significantly since I started in 1993, the only change I have seen in my times is the recent allowance for front OR rear swaybar changes.

The TRD rear bar has always been stock class legal for the 07'-11' Yaris, it is a factory port install option (good news for 12' cars, this could get added to your options list soon). The current rule however now allows you to use any rear bar. Or in the this case you could use the TRD rear bar and change your front.

Any air filter element in the stock box may be used, or you can run without if you want.

Any shocks up to double adjustable, must be within 1" +/- overall length of the OE shocks, and perch must be in the stock location.

Crash bolts can be used, but only the OE or equivalent, you cant use the cam style.

Traction control can be turned off via the factory switch, or the factory service back door method. You can not unhook the sensors, or mechanically disable the system in a way not intended by the manufacturer.

Any brake pad can be used, pre-1992 cars can replace rubber brake lines with braided, rotors must be OE or equivalent - they can not be driller or slotted.

[racerb]

The rules for stock class have not changed significantly since I started in 1993, the only change I have seen in my times is the recent allowance for front OR rear swaybar changes.

The TRD rear bar has always been stock class legal for the 07'-11' Yaris, it is a factory port install option (good news for 12' cars, this could get added to your options list soon). The current rule however now allows you to use any rear bar. Or in the this case you could use the TRD rear bar and change your front.

Any air filter element in the stock box may be used, or you can run without if you want.

Any shocks up to double adjustable, must be within 1" +/- overall length of the OE shocks, and perch must be in the stock location.

Crash bolts can be used, but only the OE or equivalent, you cant use the cam style.

Traction control can be turned off via the factory switch, or the factory service back door method. You can not unhook the sensors, or mechanically disable the system in a way not intended by the manufacturer.

Any brake pad can be used, pre-1992 cars can replace rubber brake lines with braided, rotors must be OE or equivalent - they can not be driller or slotted.

Ok, thanks for the reply. The last time I auto-xed with SCCA was in '90 or '91 not sure now it's all a blur. When I drove my '89 Civic Si in D-Stock, a K&N filter, Yokohama A008Rs, and a 4-point harness were the only mods. About all you could do, except for aftermarket shocks and I don't even think they could be adjustable, but don't hold me to that either.

I really want to be able to enjoy this car like the cars of the past, so auto-xing is my cheapest way out. Going to do some more research and see where it all goes, but the local SCCA group may just have another H-Stock car before long!!

racerb :thumbsup:

[NJ Drive]

So far after two events it looks like the Yaris is only a few tenths behind a similar prepped Mini.
I did 3 runs in my Yaris then 2 in an '06 Mini at Friday's test and tune.

Yaris: 34.2
'06 Mini: 33.9

I should have taken another run in my car to see if course familiarity was the cause but I'm just happy it's that close. The Mini was definitely set up more loose than my car as it took little effort to shake its rear around nicely. It seemed to have a little more punch when accelerating too... the Yaris has a noticeable delay when applying throttle.

Having rigid upper strut mounts on the front of the Yaris would help a lot too, but not legal.