200 NA horses?

[Black_griffin6]

Hey guys,

I would like to eventually get around 200 horses out of the 1NZ in my Yaris, but if possible I would like to do it naturally aspirated.
I know it will be more expensive then a turbo/supercharge, but to me there's something about a N/A engine that I really love, and as far as I know nobody has made a 200 HP N/A Yaris yet, and I like to do things differently then everyone else.

So i'm wondering how and/or if it would be possible to do so with the 1NZ-FE, I know a little about cars but not enough as most of you so i'm wondering how you people might think that could be possible.

Thanks! :smile:

[cali yaris]

high compression motor build, ITB's, standalone management, extensive head work, custom exhaust, a few other little expensive tricks and you could get close. Maybe all the way to 200.

[fnkngrv]

There is a certain individual out there that swears his company is working on a 1nz that will be NA and put out 225, but so far it hasn't come to fruition AFAIK. I say go for it! Like my moto says, Dream Big, do Bigger! I personally would be stoked to see it. Too many folks out there think that our 1.5 doesn't have the DNA to be strong and I am thinkin with the progress made they are sadly mistaken.

[1.5]

possible but it will be a massive and expensive build.

[fnkngrv]

First you will need to start by using a stroker kit. +3 should be sufficient.


That would be a very valid point. The next question I would have is the OP looking to essentially have a larger displacement or is that a concern. For my purposes for example I cannot change the displacement otherwise it will put me into a different class and I will get my ass handed to me by other 1.6-1.8l motored cars. Not that most folks are looking to race these, but it can be a concern depending upon the situation.

[cali yaris]

If someone went to the trouble to build this and DIDN'T race it, it would be a tragedy.

Dyno queens = :thumbdown:

[thebarber]

I doubt 200whp n/a is possible from a 1nzfe

[Jason@SportsCar]

Hey guys,

I would like to eventually get around 200 horses out of the 1NZ in my Yaris, but if possible I would like to do it naturally aspirated.
I know it will be more expensive then a turbo/supercharge, but to me there's something about a N/A engine that I really love, and as far as I know nobody has made a 200 HP N/A Yaris yet, and I like to do things differently then everyone else.

So i'm wondering how and/or if it would be possible to do so with the 1NZ-FE, I know a little about cars but not enough as most of you so i'm wondering how you people might think that could be possible.

Thanks! :smile:

No doubt you could get the 1NZ there, but it will be high strung and very costly - and it will still never make big torque.

Honestly, if you want 200hp all motor, just do a swap. You could pick up the 2ZZ and 6spd for less than you will have into the 1NZ head. Those will hit 200hp with little work.

[cali yaris]

150-160 with n/a throttle response would be awfully fun to drive, my question is where the 200 came from? Just a nice round number to shoot for?

How about a built supercharged 1NZ? - easier and more reliable with many of the same benefits of an n/a project.

[cali yaris]

I believe it can be done as well. Of course you can build for a desired number. The question is whether the OP would also be looking for reliability, longevity or any other considerations in attempting this project. More information is better, right?

So it's post #13 now -- maybe Black Griffon can share his thoughts about the discussion so far.

[Jason@SportsCar]

I say you stick with the challenge. I enjoy hearing people say, “I doubt it can be done" People always like the easy way out. "Do an engine swap" that’s not what this is about.

Don't be so quick to write something off because you don't think it can be done. I believe you can do it. Actually mathematically it can be done, no question.

:wink:

Oh I have no doubt it can be done... Its only money. I would be surprised if this could be done for less than $100 per HP once you factor in the engine build, electronics, drive-train and all the other goodies that go a long with doing a one-off build like this. :burnrubber: And this assumes its done right the first time. This is largely uncharted territory, so don't go there if you are afraid of flushing some money to get it right - we are on version three of our head, and we are not doing anything nearly as crazy as this.

Good luck.

[why?]

There is a certain individual out there that swears his company is working on a 1nz that will be NA and put out 225, but so far it hasn't come to fruition AFAIK. I say go for it! Like my moto says, Dream Big, do Bigger! I personally would be stoked to see it. Too many folks out there think that our 1.5 doesn't have the DNA to be strong and I am thinkin with the progress made they are sadly mistaken.

I think anyone who thinks our little 1.5 doesn't have the right DNA has their head in the sand. Probably by choice. The engine is proven.

[Blown_xa]

I don't think a stroker kit would be wise, considering the stroke is already long on our motors. Plus you are going to want to rev it high, and with a stroker motor that is defeating the purpose. It will be better to get some custom high compression pistons, and rods.... Then focus on the head. Larger valves with some radical cams, and focus on making the power up top. Shoot for a 9k Redline. All you have to do, is look up what the all motor drag cars are doing... Hondas forums wouldn't be a bad idea to get
ideas.

[Viperoni]

I don't think a stroker kit would be wise, considering the stroke is already long on our motors. Plus you are going to want to rev it high, and with a stroker motor that is defeating the purpose. It will be better to get some custom high compression pistons, and rods.... Then focus on the head. Larger valves with some radical cams, and focus on making the power up top. Shoot for a 9k Redline. All you have to do, is look up what the all motor drag cars are doing... Hondas forums wouldn't be a bad idea to get
ideas.

Agreed.
It will have a long, low power curve, like an RX8, unlikely to be friendly below 2k, but will be fun.


There's no doubt in my mind that it could be done, but whether or not it's worth it is a personal judgement. If I wanted big power I would swap motors, no questions asked.

[Blown_xa]

Yes, many people don't realize that under racing conditions you will never see low rpm anyhow.... When you shift into the next gear you are already at what, 4500 rpm or so? With a raised rev limiter that number raises as well odviously. Horsepower is what gets you down the track quicker, torque is just the onset of horsepower.

[Viperoni]

Greater amounts of torque in the upper part of the powerband get you down a 1/4 mile quicker.

A more accurate way of saying it ;) and yes, we're agreeing to the same point.

[Blown_xa]

A more accurate way of saying it ;) and yes, we're agreeing to the same point.

Yes lol. There is a point to where it hurts, I have been to that point with an over sized turbo. I think the best power bands are the ones which hold a flat torque curve all the way to Redline, such as the f20 s2k motor and the 370z.

[Blown_xa]

Like I previously stated before you will need to stoke the motor as well to accomplish this 200-225hp goal. If you think otherwise you are mistaken.

If you need an example, just look at one of many Bisimotos N/A builds. If you need further guidance, talk to Brian Crower. Anyone that has ever done N/A racing will tell you the motor will need to be stroked. You are going for max output and on a motor of this size you will need to squeeze everything out of it.

This isn't going to be cheap and from what it looks like it appears to be a pipe dream.

Good luck to whoever pulls it off. :thumbsup:You seem pretty opinionated, Your ideas are right on but the construction of the 1nzfe is far from a typical modern Honda motor.

You have to realize that our 1nz fe has the same stroke as a k20 already using main caps which are not part of a girdle plus the caps are half the size. Our motors are already "stroker" motors, the bore to stroke ratio is already silly. I build motors, and have done stroker motors.... A stroker kit is really only beneficial for
a motor which is already efficient, the 1nzfe is not. If you put longer rods, that extra load on the crank ( from inreased rod movement, more leverage per say) will for sure crack the main caps if you try to rev it past 6300rpm... I for see this happening. 1nzfe is no F1 motor.


The motor is nothing but a pump to move air, stroking is one way to move more air but is not a good idea on our motor. The other way to move more air.... Spin that pump faster! Plain and simple. You want to make the 1nzfe more to the specs of a f1 or Hayabusa motor, produce air volume through efficiency with higher compression
and high lift cams... Then rev it out.

[Black_griffin6]

Wow, I got a big response from this, thanks everyone. :biggrin:

To answer a few of your questions, yes it would be expensive, but then again I see people dumping 10k or more into 15 year old Honda Civic's.
Why 200 HP? Well I think with 200 HP and with the weight of the Yaris it would give me a good power-to-weight ratio that I could take on the track, yet it wouldn't be total overkill, I mean don't get me wrong...if I end up with more then 200 after i'm done i'd be happy with it, but 200 is my goal. :smile:

I thought about going the 2zz route but I thought it would be too complicated, since I might have to cut the frame and modify the structure of the car to accommodate a different engine and transmission. I'm also worried about how much more weight the 2ZZ with a 6 speed would add to the Yaris.
I mean quite frankly...I would love a 2zz in my Yaris, and if that's the easier option I might end up going with that because i'd love to have a yaris with a 2zz.


I like engines with a long power curve that rev high, like the RX8 and AP1 S2k, and I wondered if I could do the same to my engine without making it completely unreliable. Bear in mind, this is all just a thought i'm pondering what might be the best route for something like this.


I have thought about a supercharged build, but then I wonder what kind of supercharger to go for.
Thanks for all your insight guys, I really appreciate it. :respekt:

[Viperoni]

Yes lol. There is a point to where it hurts, I have been to that point with an over sized turbo. I think the best power bands are the ones which hold a flat torque curve all the way to Redline, such as the f20 s2k motor and the 370z.

Or curving upwards with a properly sized centrifugal supercharger :bow:

[cali yaris]

t then again I see people dumping 10k or more into 15 year old Honda Civic's.

We've answered the question "can it be done?" with yes -- but it's not easy, and might not be reliable. Now let's try a new angle.

Your project, as described, would cost far more IMO. Let's start with "what is the most you can spend on this?" -- and go from there. That would result in real life guidance for you.

[fnkngrv]

We've answered the question "can it be done?" with yes -- but it's not easy, and might not be reliable. Now let's try a new angle.

Your project, as described, would cost far more IMO. Let's start with "what is the most you can spend on this?" -- and go from there. That would result in real life guidance for you.

I totally agree and would like to add as another part what is the timeline because that can affect pricing/budget. Do you plan on a local builder or if a remote one then freight comes into play as well.

[Black_griffin6]

I totally agree and would like to add as another part what is the timeline because that can affect pricing/budget. Do you plan on a local builder or if a remote one then freight comes into play as well.
No real set timeline for this, it's just an idea for now.
It might end up being too pricey and complicated for it's own good. :laugh:
Since it's just an idea I don't really know what the budget would be, it would be something I would have to save up for in the future (not the near future mind you).

I'm not an expert at tuning and modding cars so I don't know what it would cost to have it done, if it's around 10 grand as Garm said, then it's probably not worth it to me.
If I became a millionaire suddenly hell yeah i'd do it. :biggrin:
But if i'm going to put 10 grand into my engine and gearbox I think I would get far more out of a 2ZZ.

Really the whole idea behind this thread was just to see if it was a practical idea to get that kind of NA power out of the 1NZ, but I might be biting off more then I can chew with it.

How about a centrifugal supercharger build? :biggrin:

[cali yaris]

Really the whole idea behind this thread was just to see if it was a practical idea to get that kind of NA power out of the 1NZ

Ok, I for one misread your post then, I thought it was an actual project you wanted to plan for, not a "practical theory" discussion. My apologies.

if it's around 10 grand as Garm said

I said more than that, actually. And, in my opinion, a swap is just as costly unless you have a shop and are doing the work yourself.

How about a centrifugal supercharger build?

How about a new thread? :biggrin:

[toad]

if anyone has one of the old issues of siphon(i think that's what it was called) laying around, they had a feature on a vitz transformed in japan by g-force. it was NA, but i can't recall the hp numbers...it may have been 200+?

wish i didn't toss all of them!

[1.5]

Thats cool I love seeing our little yarii getting mag coverage. There is an old issue of Turbo Mag with a blue LB sporting the blitz kit like when it first came out.

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0706_turp_project_toyota_yaris/viewall.html

sorry to sidetrack

[maelo600]

http://www.trinituner.com/v3/forums/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=209280&start=30

[jouna]

i dont think i have 200 but i can beat a civic si and thats a k20 engine props 4 me i have the video

[Maitre_Te_Te]

Check this. This is in french but if you can understand, my friend do a N/A engine with ITB, mega skirt, cam, etc...

http://www.clubecho-yarisquebec.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11178