Read This Before Buying a Hybrid/Diesel/Electric

[bronsin]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/05/business/energy-environment/for-hybrid-and-electric-cars-to-pay-off-owners-must-wait.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2


The "payoff" happens NOW when you buy a Yaris! ~$10,000 less than a hybrid.

[DMZ]

My wife's '04 Aveo is getting on in age and I am pondering trading it in on a new car before it loses what little value it has left.

I am seriously considering a Prius C. Not because I plan to save on fuel cost and that it will some day pay for itself. I would expect to pay ~$24K for one. I am not interested in the socially accepted behavior aspect of such a purchase either. Or who is greener than me BS.

I am interested in it because it is a very nicely refined, very reliable car that gets 53 mpg. The same sort of attributes that attracted me to the Yaris (albeit not really nicely refined).

A luxury sub-compact that gets significantly better mileage than a Yaris? Yeah, I might pay $10k more for that.

[bronsin]

The only thing I would take issue with you on (given your eyes wide open position)
is the quality of the Yaris.

To me its perfectly acceptable and nicely done.

I just want to get there as economically and comfortably as possible and the Yaris does both very well.

[DMZ]

The only thing I would take issue with you on (given your eyes wide open position)
is the quality of the Yaris.

To me its perfectly acceptable and nicely done.

I just want to get there as economically and comfortably as possible and the Yaris does both very well.

I can not disagree with you about the Yaris being "perfectly acceptable and nicely done." It is a far more refined automobile than my wife's Aveo, (which has been a very good, reliable commuter for her).

But.......the Prius is a couple of notches above the Yaris in refinement and comfort. It is like comparing a Camry to a Lexus. Go test drive a new Prius or Prius C. You well see what I mean.

So is all that additional refinement, comfort, gadgets, CVT, Eco buttons and read-outs worth an additional $8-$10K? Hmmm...might be.

[why?]

the yaris is simply not refined, it is spartan. The average person wouldn't consider it because it is too small, too boring, no leather, no nav, etc...

The Prius cars are actually nice inside. it is obvious they are not bottom of the line cars. Hell, the thing that annoys me the most about the Yaris is the seating position is too close and the steering wheel doesn't telescope. Not to mention no cruise control.

The main point of someone buying a Prius is they want more luxury than a car like the Yaris will ever have. and you can't blame them.

[bronsin]

Gosh that is so different from what I am used to. I had a 74 Beelte that barely had heat for petes sake! There was no radio either. I put 250,000 miles on it commuting 30 miles each way to work. 46 horsepower too...

The Yaris is a palace compared to that.

I was very happy with it too. It always started.

[DevilGirl]

The arguement that I feel I must point out at this time is in regards to a diesel. I own a 2009 Yaris Hatch. My fiance owns a 2009 VW Jetta Sportwagon TDI (diesel). We obtain relatively comparative fuel efficiency. But here's the biggest difference and why I would still consider diesel, despite the fuel cost being $0.20 to $0.40 higher than 87 octane:

The Jetta Sportwagon is a lot larger than the Yaris is. The Jetta Sportwagon also has significantly more power.

For a vehicle being larger and with better performance (helps greatly when having to merge on a highway), while still getting the fuel efficiency of the tiny car, I'd say that's worth the extra $8,000 to $10,000 more in purchase price and the higher fuel cost.

Granted, this also depends upon your needs and whether you can manage with the smaller car. For us, the Yaris works great for my commuter car (minimum of 100 miles a day). And we use the Jetta Sportwagon as the family car. The family is small for now (myself, my fiance, his mom, and our large pup - Weimaraner), but will be growing in a year or 2. Us, a baby, stroller, and a dog? Yeah, that doesn't work too well in the Yaris.

[DebbyM46227]

I am seriously considering a Prius C. Not because I plan to save on fuel cost and that it will some day pay for itself. I would expect to pay ~$24K for one. I am not interested in the socially accepted behavior aspect of such a purchase either. Or who is greener than me BS.

I am interested in it because it is a very nicely refined, very reliable car that gets 53 mpg. The same sort of attributes that attracted me to the Yaris (albeit not really nicely refined).

ITA with you. If I could afford any Prius model, I'd have one, and I'm not into this being green BS either. I would hope the seats in the Prius would be much more comfortable than the Yaris. My brother moved 300 miles away and he's been after me to visit him, but there is NO WAY I'm sitting in my Yaris for 300 miles. I went on a 100 mile long road trip and the seats become very uncomfortable after driving it just 50 miles.

[DMZ]

ITA with you. If I could afford any Prius model, I'd have one, and I'm not into this being green BS either. I would hope the seats in the Prius would be much more comfortable than the Yaris. My brother moved 300 miles away and he's been after me to visit him, but there is NO WAY I'm sitting in my Yaris for 300 miles. I went on a 100 mile long road trip and the seats become very uncomfortable after driving it just 50 miles.

One of the things that drew me to the Prius were the seats. Very nice and comfortable. Better than my old '98 Camry which I considered a very comfortable car.

My 81 YO Mother lives 325 miles from me and I visit her often. I could take the Tundra (very comfortable), but it cost $100+ for gas, so I default to the Yaris. It's comfort level is "OK" but after 300 miles it is much less so.

[bronsin]

The arguement that I feel I must point out at this time is in regards to a diesel. I own a 2009 Yaris Hatch. My fiance owns a 2009 VW Jetta Sportwagon TDI (diesel). We obtain relatively comparative fuel efficiency. But here's the biggest difference and why I would still consider diesel, despite the fuel cost being $0.20 to $0.40 higher than 87 octane:

The Jetta Sportwagon is a lot larger than the Yaris is. The Jetta Sportwagon also has significantly more power.

For a vehicle being larger and with better performance (helps greatly when having to merge on a highway), while still getting the fuel efficiency of the tiny car, I'd say that's worth the extra $8,000 to $10,000 more in purchase price and the higher fuel cost.

Granted, this also depends upon your needs and whether you can manage with the smaller car. For us, the Yaris works great for my commuter car (minimum of 100 miles a day). And we use the Jetta Sportwagon as the family car. The family is small for now (myself, my fiance, his mom, and our large pup - Weimaraner), but will be growing in a year or 2. Us, a baby, stroller, and a dog? Yeah, that doesn't work too well in the Yaris.

The price difference is getting less between diesel and gas, so that works in your favor. BUYING a diesel vehicle new probably wouldnt as long as you already own one.

[bronsin]

I went on a 100 mile long road trip and the seats become very uncomfortable after driving it just 50 miles.

I drove my Yaris 10,400 miles in 17 days from NJ to Alaska and back last summer. I planned to take my motorcycle but my back went out. I was very comfortable in the Yaris. Amazingly so.

There must be something that could be done to make yours better on long trips.

[firemachine69]

My Yaris was pure crap.

That being said, most YW members have had excellent luck.

But let's not forget, someone driving 1000 miles a week will get a better overall deal likely by buying a turbo diesel. Each vehicle has it's place!

[Nicfin]

I came very close to buying a used Prius. A 2007 model was about twice what I paid for my used 2008 Yaris. Factor in the possible extra maintenance and repair costs of a hybrid and I just couldn't bring myself to do it. At over 40mpg, I am very happy with my Yaris. I find it comfortable, but I have been driving a 97 Tacoma for about 11 years. My only major gripe was that it didn't have a cruise control. I swore I would never buy another vehicle without one, but I have since resolved that issue.:thumbsup:

[bronsin]

My Yaris was pure crap.

That being said, most YW members have had excellent luck.

But let's not forget, someone driving 1000 miles a week will get a better overall deal likely by buying a turbo diesel. Each vehicle has it's place!

Such a car would cost well over $10,000 more than a Yaris. Recently the price of diesel was well over 25% more than the cost of gas. ($3/gal for gas $3.78/gal for diesel) Right now its about 25 cents a gallon cheaper for gas which is less than 10% cheaper than diesel. But the price will go up for diesel Im thinking.

At 25% higher than gas prices you would not be saving a nickle in fuel costs with a diesel engine vs a gas one.

You might save 50 cents every time you fill up the way things are now...

[firemachine69]

Wow.


And my co-workers with TDI Jettas have been complaining about the five-cent premium over gas up in the great-white north... :laugh:


The USA's heavy subsidization of consumerism (and especially gasoline) is at the heart of the crazy diesel prices, I would suspect. Truckers don't work for free, and diesel, IIRC, is cheaper to make than gas.

[bronsin]

Wow.


And my co-workers with TDI Jettas have been complaining about the five-cent premium over gas up in the great-white north... :laugh:


The USA's heavy subsidization of consumerism (and especially gasoline) is at the heart of the crazy diesel prices, I would suspect. Truckers don't work for free, and diesel, IIRC, is cheaper to make than gas.

Our fuel is taxed here too, but not like it is in Canada, Eurpope, and elsewhere.

Having said that heating oil, which is diesel fuel but is NOT taxed here in NJ, is MORE expensive than over the road diesel. About $4 a gallon for over the road diesel and $4.50 for home heating oil.

Id love to hear the explaination for that one.

I was in Canada last year and diesel might have been a little less than gas? I cant remember exactly.

[bronsin]

I see you are from Sudbury.

I rode my motorcycle through there in 2000.

I bought gas and when I rode out of the station there was this rock wall in front of me with all this crazy stress fractures in it. I knew something happened a long time ago but wondered what it was.

I since read a meteor hit there billions of years ago.

Know anything about that?

[bronsin]

But.......the Prius is a couple of notches above the Yaris in refinement and comfort. It is like comparing a Camry to a Lexus. Go test drive a new Prius or Prius C. You well see what I mean.

So is all that additional refinement, comfort, gadgets, CVT, Eco buttons and read-outs worth an additional $8-$10K? Hmmm...might be.

One of the problems with small cars is the manufacturers cannot make as big a profit on them as larger ones. However the economy of small cars is an inevitable factor as the price of gas goes UP not DOWN.

But they want to make money. So companies like Toyota are making the small car "upscale" They are trying to train consumers thats its "normal" to spend $20,000-$30,000 for a car...even if its a YAris.

Thats what theyre doing with the iQ. Releasing it as a Scion which is heavily loaded with "upscale" features. That cost more. So they can charge proportionally more. The Prius is just another such ploy

Sounds like you are taking to your training VERY well! :thumbup:

[goliath1812]

I'm actually looking pretty hard into the Prius C. Why buy a new Yaris for 16k or more, if you can spend 19k and get a Prius with much better mileage? That's nowhere near a $10,000 premium..

[bronsin]

Remember you will only save $2000 in fuel over 100,000 miles with the Prius C, compared with the Yaris.

Plus the car is more complicated and possibly trouble even if its under warranty. Can anyone but Toyota fix it? Can THEY fix it? Its more complicated and mechanics can have trouble enough with a regular car.

Still the Prius has been largely trouble free...

IF you could not buy a Yaris for less than $16,000 AND you could get a Prius for $19,000 (we're talking bottom line not advertised prices here which mean nothing)
then youve got something realistic.

Not saving any money and its going to costs you $$$$ more all the same...

[bronsin]

Hmm Motortrend says MSRP of the Prius C is $24,000-$29400.

Looks like the parties over....

[goliath1812]

I see your point. And the fuel savings increase as the prices at the pumps increase also...but even with $5 gas, it's still only a $2500 savings over that same 100,000 miles...

I'm also looking long term here, my Yaris is 5 years old and has 100,000 miles, I'm expecting to get no less than 150,000 - 200,000 out of it.... I would be expecting to do the same with a Prius... and the Prius will come with additional features the Yaris does not have (little things like keyless entry, telescoping steering wheel, etc.)

heck maybe i'll just look for another low mileage used yaris...although it seems its hard to find 5 door Yariis around here....

[goliath1812]

Hmm Motortrend says MSRP of the Prius C is $24,000-$29400.

Looks like the parties over....

I test drove a Prius C last night at my dealership. They quoted me a little over $19k ($19,400 ish)... MSRP being in the $18,000 area..

Toyota site has it starting at 18,950

[bronsin]

Yaris L $14,115 on their website.

[goliath1812]

Trying to keep to a 5 door (apples to apples as the Prius doesn't come in 2 door)...5 door L $15140.

So a $3-4k difference doesn't seem like a lot....over time.

[bronsin]

heck maybe i'll just look for another low mileage used yaris...although it seems its hard to find 5 door Yariis around here....


There you go...the cheapest, most reliable, cost effective transportation there is.

I bought a 2000 ECHO for my son five years ago for $3000 with 117k on it.

Its nearly 190,000k now with two trips across the country and back from NJ on it.

Just tires, oil changes, brake pads, sparkplugs and a MAF sensor.

My son and his GF are in awe of the car. Its been confortable, cheap to run, they can count on it, and theyve had two awesome experiences cross country with it.

HE EVEN CHANGED THE OIL ALL BY HIMSELF LAST WEEK!

[curtmaxwall]

I am going for Toyota Prius mainly due to its design, features, safety and above all its marketing strategies, "having 1 tone of CO2 less than an equivalent family vehicle with a diesel engine".:w00t:

[bronsin]

I am going for Toyota Prius mainly due to its design, features, safety and above all its marketing strategies, "having 1 tone of CO2 less than an equivalent family vehicle with a diesel engine".:w00t:

Got news for you one volcano eruption puts out more CO2 than all the cars that ever existed in the history of the world ever put out...

Plus more than that weight of other even more nasty stuff.

When the Prius came out (in 2000?) the Germans didnt build one because they couldnt believe anyone would be dumb enough to buy one when they could buy a diesel engine car and use cheaper fuel in it.

That has changed...

[sherryberry]

I got my prius because my old yaris is a 2 door and since I just had a baby, there was no way I was moving the seat back every time I had to get to the car seat. Plus, my husband needed a new car since his was so old and it has more room for him so he can also use it for his jobs.

[bronsin]

I wish you luck with the Prius. Did you give the Yaris to your husband?

What kind of mileage does the Prius get?

[sherryberry]

No. My husband has the Prius because he is going to be taking care of our daughter. We're only getting 42 mpg right now with the Prius. Toyota says they tested it at 50 mpg. I think it's my husband's crazy driving :) Either way, it's better than our yaris. I get about 34 mpg when it's cold outside

[bentjazz]

I agree with why? in that the Yaris is a minimalist car, but that's one of the things I like about it. I'm not interested in navigation systems, leather, sunroof, or any other goodies. Reliability and fuel economy is all I care about, but then again I'm single without any kids. I can definitely understand why someone would be interested in comfort and aesthetics....

[bronsin]

No. My husband has the Prius because he is going to be taking care of our daughter. We're only getting 42 mpg right now with the Prius. Toyota says they tested it at 50 mpg. I think it's my husband's crazy driving :) Either way, it's better than our yaris. I get about 34 mpg when it's cold outside

The Prius gets its best mpg in city driving when the battery can kick in for short periods. On the highway where the engine would run all the time it the mileage is lower.

To get the most out of it you have to work at driving it. I have a feeling a Prius site would be able to explain how.

[bronsin]

I agree with why? in that the Yaris is a minimalist car, but that's one of the things I like about it. I'm not interested in navigation systems, leather, sunroof, or any other goodies. Reliability and fuel economy is all I care about, but then again I'm single without any kids. I can definitely understand why someone would be interested in comfort and aesthetics....

Huh. That "comfort" part I dont get. I was supremely comfortable in my Yaris driving to Alaska. Couldnt have been better! And every day I went 700 miles. Except for the last one when I did 1400.

All those amenities are what make the big boys money. They know there is demand and they price those things accordingly.

One thing for sure its not me paying for their caviar!

[daf62757]

the yaris is simply not refined, it is spartan. The average person wouldn't consider it because it is too small, too boring, no leather, no nav, etc...

The Prius cars are actually nice inside. it is obvious they are not bottom of the line cars. Hell, the thing that annoys me the most about the Yaris is the seating position is too close and the steering wheel doesn't telescope. Not to mention no cruise control.

The main point of someone buying a Prius is they want more luxury than a car like the Yaris will ever have. and you can't blame them.

My wife had to rent a car this week and she was given the choice of a Dodge Avenger or Yaris. She thought the Avenger, being physically larger, would have been a better car to drive over a couple of days.

By the end of her rental, she related to me that the Yaris had better pick up, was more roomy inside, and looked to be of better quality. This is based on her observations of a 2012 Avenger vs a 2009 Yaris.

Anyone who thinks the Yaris is cramped inside has never ridden in one. They are comfortable and have more than enough space for up to 4 adults. True they don't come with all the bells and whistles, but you can buy aftermarket to spruce it up and have an outstanding looking car.

I rent cars all the time in my job traveling and when I travel, I ask for a Yaris. With the exception of once in Phoenix, they never have any in to rent. They are always out. Their fuel efficiency and Toyota nameplate make them a hot item.

Just a word to anyone who is thinking about selling your Yaris.....don't trade it in. You will get almost retail value from anyone who is looking to buy one. These are not junk cars. They hold their value and especially now during high gas prices, they are in high demand as used cars.

[why?]

The Prius gets its best mpg in city driving when the battery can kick in for short periods. On the highway where the engine would run all the time it the mileage is lower.

To get the most out of it you have to work at driving it. I have a feeling a Prius site would be able to explain how.

better to go to a hyper miler site. Eco modder or fuelly or one of those. The Prius requires a totally different way of thinking to get the crazy gas mileage it advertises. But once you can do that you can get much better than advertised. People were claiming 70mpg and more for the old Prius, once the hypermilers get their hands on the C, that is just the beginning.

[daf62757]

Wow.


And my co-workers with TDI Jettas have been complaining about the five-cent premium over gas up in the great-white north... :laugh:


The USA's heavy subsidization of consumerism (and especially gasoline) is at the heart of the crazy diesel prices, I would suspect. Truckers don't work for free, and diesel, IIRC, is cheaper to make than gas.

I would be interested to hear what you mean by heavy subsidization? So you mean ethanol?

[daf62757]

I test drove a Prius C last night at my dealership. They quoted me a little over $19k ($19,400 ish)... MSRP being in the $18,000 area..

Toyota site has it starting at 18,950

I would recommend to anyone to try buying a new car from Carmax if your local dealers are being buttheads about the price. You don't have to haggle about the cost and you always pay less than sticker. Depending on the model and the inventory, you can get a very good deal.

Some people don't know they sell new cars but they have a few lots in the US that do. Fly in, taxi over, and drive home with some savings.

And for those who say the dealer won't service the car if it wasn't bought there, you are wrong. Any dealer can submit warranty work to Toyota and they will treat you very well. Just don't go there once the warranty has expired because they will screw you more than obama is screwing the country!

Here is the link: http://www.carmax.com/enus/search-results/default.html?ANa=4294967002&N=68&D=50&zip=20202&pD=0&pI=0&pT=400&pC=200&pB=0&No=0&Ep=search:findcar:new&Rp=R&PP=20&sV=List&CD=14+966+240+190+398+15&Q=c59b3a9b-1a50-49a2-b2a6-0acf3715c48d