DEBATE: Analog vs Digital - Class D vs Old School Amps

[_S7V7N_]

K Debate away . Taken from a diff thread.


I don't have to define SPL rig. You know it means.

Keep on the roll about analog formats. I'm sure your insistence of analog format supreme excellence will change the industry.

This isn't the thread to re-start your analog vs digital argument.

...and yes, you're right. high dynamic range analog is better than compressed crap. I also generally agree about the modern vs "classic" amplifiers. Still, this also shows that you haven't listened to a properly setup full range D class amplifier setup. I can't tell an appreciable difference in sound quality between (for instance) the 2011 IASCA Expert Solo 1 seat world championship vehicle using JL HD/750 class D amplifiers on each speaker versus my "classic" A/B surfboards and the "smaller" A/B 4 channel. We're using the same format of source and the same line of speakers. The only difference is in amplifier power and slight differences in processing.


Are you arguing that a modern class D amps sounds great?
I never said that they did not and...... I've heard plenty.
I just said that a quality vintage amp sounds just as good while being less efficient.

As far as anilog vs digital, if ones knows anothing about digital sound they would be aware that digital can not reproduce every nuance of sound as anilog can. This is one of the reasons that anilog can often sound better.
Yes, high bitrate digital can often sound great but there is a difference in a Blind A/B test with high qualty aniolog.

Yeah, I know what "SPL" means but why call something a "SPL rig" ..... a "high SPL rig" yes , but both are just another name for high volume and neither one has anything to do with sound quality. It's all just pretentious BS IMO. :smile:


Keep it clean !!

[sqcomp]

This thread is about AMPLIFIERS and not sources or source material!


I'd generally submit that one can't hear the difference between amplifiers IF we're not using any onboard processing (to include crossovers) on the amplifier and we're talking Watt to Watt output being identical...especially given the same source and signal chain.

I'd be willing to bet that one hears signal Voltage amplitude differences much more readily than THD differences.

I'm willing to be wrong on the subject though. Let's hear dissenting arguments.

[TOLMACH]

I can easily hear differences between amps. Lots of nice and relatively expensive amps have their unique @sound style@. I totally love hybrid amps (with tube pre amp and AB amp) for full range purposes (butler, eos mozart/verdi, poweramper xp, etc.).

Re D vs AB/B topology. I have liimited exposure to D amps, but the mass market models like Alpine pdx sound worse in mid and high ranges than decent AB/B amps. No experience with expensive ones.

My 0.02

[RedRide]

Since my 2 cents is already posted..... I will just sit back with my popcorn and beer. :biggrin:

[sqcomp]

^because that's about all your "argument" is worth. You can't even overcome road noise in your vehicle (by your own admission). How can you even start critically analyzing sound you aren't able to recreate? If you want to talk home audio, go to a section that deals with that subject. This isn't the place. We are talking about 12 Volt electronics.

You won't step up and throw a record player in your car (after all you MUST keep it ALL analog right?), run tube amps and compete in sanctioned SQ competition. So where do you have any experience to start from? You don't.

You're a keyboard commando until you step up and compete. Why? Because you don't seem to have much of a perspective.

How about this...there's 10 months before the next Spring Break Nationals and International North American Autosound Championship. Spend some coin and come down to listen to a multitude of different vehicles with many different sound setups. This way you'll have perspective enough to truly give an educated opinion.

Please come with some real practical car audio experience before you start pontificating on an unwavering stale point of view that is made solely for a home audio arena. Oh, one addition...I love your spin on vinyl sales. You make it seem like people are rejecting digital media en mass. That insinuation is false. What were worldwide sales of new vinyl albums last year? I've read something near 300,000 units. Take a look at the the top 10 digital downloads from 2010. We're talking multi millions...

Now, if you'd like, start another thread about the vinyl and digital formats. This is where your subject of analog vs digital source material belongs. I'd love to debate about it...as a fan of both formats. One more note, I'm deep in a family project to transfer my great uncle's recordings from the late 40's through to the 80's. He played with Doc Severenson in the big bands during the 40's and 50's. I'm cataloging and transferring his recordings from vinyl and reel to reel over to a digital hard drive for storage and preservation. It's a great experience to be able to dive right into analog to digital conversion and musical history.

[sqcomp]

I can easily hear differences between amps. Lots of nice and relatively expensive amps have their unique @sound style@. I totally love hybrid amps (with tube pre amp and AB amp) for full range purposes (butler, eos mozart/verdi, poweramper xp, etc.).

Re D vs AB/B topology. I have liimited exposure to D amps, but the mass market models like Alpine pdx sound worse in mid and high ranges than decent AB/B amps. No experience with expensive ones.

My 0.02

There's several good reasons why you can hear the differences between amplifiers. You noticed my missive on the difference between amplifiers? I took out all the easily distinguishing variables that have absolutely nothing to do with pure signal amplification. You DON'T need a crossover, equalization, or other processing for amplifying the signal. Take those variables out and run the output of any amplifier side by side in a double blind listening test...you won't be able to hear the difference 10 out of 10 times, heck, even a majority of the time. You'd simply be guessing leaning on luck to give you the right answer.

That being said...with all the mitigating factors added in...sure! You can hear the difference between amplifiers. I can as well. I still submit that the hearing difference has more to do with amplitude differences than with the other factors I mentioned.

[09sedan]

i like music:thumbup:

[_S7V7N_]

There was also a brief discussion on efficiency. Given the same environment for example Our Yaris with stock electrical an old school amp vs a class D. Can an older less efficient amp work with the lower voltage drop ? Vs the newer Class D amps that have less of a drop and are kinder on our electrical.

Then that raises the question can it sound just as good as say a 1000 watt class D even though it will be struggling for voltage, current, and power ?

[_S7V7N_]

There's several good reasons why you can hear the differences between amplifiers. You noticed my missive on the difference between amplifiers? I took out all the easily distinguishing variables that have absolutely nothing to do with pure signal amplification. You DON'T need a crossover, equalization, or other processing for amplifying the signal. Take those variables out and run the output of any amplifier side by side in a double blind listening test...you won't be able to hear the difference 10 out of 10 times, heck, even a majority of the time. You'd simply be guessing leaning on luck to give you the right answer.

That being said...with all the mitigating factors added in...sure! You can hear the difference between amplifiers. I can as well. I still submit that the hearing difference has more to do with amplitude differences than with the other factors I mentioned.

So if we got a high dollar amp and a budget amp and left the crossovers on there lowest setting and only adjusted the gain they'd sound the same ?

We may be able to test this I believe some of the different brands share the same build houses from across sea's, basically cookie cutter circuit boards and diff components. It would be a slap in the face if say the budget brand Audiopipe and another highend brand shared the same motherboard =)

From there we could do the above test.

[sqcomp]

There was also a brief discussion on efficiency. Given the same environment for example Our Yaris with stock electrical an old school amp vs a class D. Can an older less efficient amp work with the lower voltage drop ? Vs the newer Class D amps that have less of a drop and are kinder on our electrical.

Then that raises the question can it sound just as good as say a 1000 watt class D even though it will be struggling for voltage, current, and power ?

It's funny when you ask that. What you're looking at is the question about the difference between regulated and non regulated power supplies. Here's a page that talks specifically about this subject:

http://www.bcae1.com/regunreg.htm

You guys already know what amplifiers I'm running, some of my critics truthfully all them inefficient, which is very true. My throwback to the 90's amp section is a class A/B unregulated monster. :)

What is hard to control is the truthfulness of the amplifier manufacturer in their claims. Let's say my amplifiers are in the signal and power chain of my car...at 12 Volts I'm able to produce 450 x 2 at 4 Ohms. When the input Voltage increases, the output power does the same. How do I know it's doing that? The manufacturer has a handwritten test sheet that confirms the ability of the amplifier. I suppose I could do the tests myself. I'd rather spend my time working on the layout of the vehicle. At this point I trust the manufacturer.

[_S7V7N_]

They rated your amps at 12 volts most other manufacturers rate them at 14.4 volts.

Kinda the same way the cheaper off brands rate speakers and amps by there max vs rms.

[RedRide]

^because that's about all your "argument" is worth. You can't even overcome road noise in your vehicle (by your own admission). How can you even start critically analyzing sound you aren't able to recreate? If you want to talk home audio, go to a section that deals with that subject. This isn't the place. We are talking about 12 Volt electronics.

You won't step up and throw a record player in your car (after all you MUST keep it ALL analog right?), run tube amps and compete in sanctioned SQ competition. So where do you have any experience to start from? You don't.

You're a keyboard commando until you step up and compete. Why? Because you don't seem to have much of a perspective.

How about this...there's 10 months before the next Spring Break Nationals and International North American Autosound Championship. Spend some coin and come down to listen to a multitude of different vehicles with many different sound setups. This way you'll have perspective enough to truly give an educated opinion.

Please come with some real practical car audio experience before you start pontificating on an unwavering stale point of view that is made solely for a home audio arena. Oh, one addition...I love your spin on vinyl sales. You make it seem like people are rejecting digital media en mass. That insinuation is false. What were worldwide sales of new vinyl albums last year? I've read something near 300,000 units. Take a look at the the top 10 digital downloads from 2010. We're talking multi millions...

Now, if you'd like, start another thread about the vinyl and digital formats. This is where your subject of analog vs digital source material belongs. I'd love to debate about it...as a fan of both formats. One more note, I'm deep in a family project to transfer my great uncle's recordings from the late 40's through to the 80's. He played with Doc Severenson in the big bands during the 40's and 50's. I'm cataloging and transferring his recordings from vinyl and reel to reel over to a digital hard drive for storage and preservation. It's a great experience to be able to dive right into analog to digital conversion and musical history.

So your only argument is to try and kill the messenger and use childish, irelavent coments while ignoing things I already said...even attributing things to me that I never said.

......You won't step up and throw a record player in your car (after all you MUST keep it ALL analog right?), run tube amps and compete in sanctioned SQ competition. So where do you have any experience to start from? You don't......

What does converting Doc Severnson have to do with anilog vs digital? We are dicussing potentials, not individual program sources.
Is this your only experience with anilog......recordings from the '40s when anilog was not even close to reaching its ultimate potential? For one thing, they were all recorded with valve amps which added their own unique distortion.

I suggest that you re read my originl post where I simply stated that good anilog is better than bad digital any day. You can arguge with that???

BTW, if you can not hear any road/engine noise in your (any) vehicle, you must be hearing impaired. :wink:

[TOLMACH]

You DON'T need a crossover, equalization, or other processing for amplifying the signal. Take those variables out and run the output of any amplifier side by side in a double blind listening test...you won't be able to hear the difference 10 out of 10 times, heck, even a majority of the time. You'd simply be guessing leaning on luck to give you the right answer.

.


Not sure what you are talking about. At the moment I have 4 two channel amps that potentially I can use for full range amplification. All have their own @sound@. In a blind test I am pretty sure I will not only be able to tell the difference but tell you which one is working at the moment.

There is a bunch of variables that affect the sound of your amp like class, standard/dual mono, type of pre-amp - conventional vs tube, quality and type of components like capacitors/ op.amps/wiring, etc.

As an example below is one of the amps that I have -it is a pilot (test) version of EOS Verdi. Verdis that were later put into serial production (big word considering the total of 12 were produced) have different capacitors (white mundors) and differents tubes (mine are nos 1956 siemens, for a serial production nos telefunken were used).. components are very similar, but the amps still have different sound (easily recognizable)

http://photo.qip.ru/users/tolmach/95112742/124385883/

Another illustration would be comparing the top line denon HUs DCT-1 and Z1 - the same dac and internal components, different RCA output CABLES at the rear panel (DCT-1 has silver ones) -couple 6 inch cables makes huge difference in sound .. so pretty much everything affects how amp will sound like

I still agree with you that using time correction and electronic crossover changes sound. This was one of the reason why I moved to @passive@ systems.

[sqcomp]

RR... You are impotent.

You were talking about analog vs digital in broad sweeping terms. Now that I mention true analog sources, you want to change the debate.

Let's change the debate then.

Good analog. Give us an example. What is "good anilog"?

Bad digital. Give us an example. What is this "bad digital" you speak of?

You're not being specific, you're skirting around broad general terms.

If the only thing you can criticize from my efforts is the conversion of an analog recording on a reel to reel recorder to digital storage...you've got no argument to stand on because you have NO idea what is happening with the process. To second that you also apparently no appreciation for the history of musical recording in the 20th century before you were born.

I'll put it this way, without the recording efforts I'm trying to save, you wouldn't have music playback as you know it now. Thank the Germans and WW II, the acoustical engineers, Bing Crosby and Les Paul for funneling the talent and money into the beginning of the golden era of recording music.

[sqcomp]

@ Tolm -

I'm willing to bet money that you couldn't hear the difference between top of the line cables and $2 cable interconnects in the setups you're referring to.

We should talk more about this idea though.

[TOLMACH]

@ Tolm -

I'm willing to bet money that you couldn't hear the difference between top of the line cables and $2 cable interconnects in the setups you're referring to.

We should talk more about this idea though.

Interesting point

I did couple @listening session@ for cables specifically, results being: it is easy to hear the difference between the interconnects and almost impossible to hear the difference between speaker level cables (when all cables are at least ok ones).

(pic shown - trying to compare kimber pbj to eos air (silver) to some other stuff http://photo.qip.ru/users/tolmach/95112742/108616693/)

With interconnects difference between a really nice and 2 bucks per meter cable can be in tiny details, interestingly thought some realitively cheap cables sound nice relative to overpriced ones (like entry level dls compared to some kimber stuff). difference is more pronounced when cuprum ones are compared to the ones containing silver or are of 100% silver.

again so far I sort of concluded for myself that decent cuprum ones are quite ok for average system tlike I have .. if you really want to go forward, one can use interconnects as a tuning instrument in your system but it takes lots of time and patience

[sqcomp]

We should get together in Northern Washington or on your side in Coquitlam perhaps? To should come down to one of Keith's IASCA competitions. There is a whole group of people that would like to be in on this line of questions regarding amplifier sound and signal changes. We might even be able to get a big name from the industry to talk about it...

[RedRide]

RR... You are impotent.

You were talking about analog vs digital in broad sweeping terms. Now that I mention true analog sources, you want to change the debate.

Let's change the debate then.

Good analog. Give us an example. What is "good anilog"?

Bad digital. Give us an example. What is this "bad digital" you speak of?

You're not being specific, you're skirting around broad general terms.

If the only thing you can criticize from my efforts is the conversion of an analog recording on a reel to reel recorder to digital storage...you've got no argument to stand on because you have NO idea what is happening with the process. To second that you also apparently no appreciation for the history of musical recording in the 20th century before you were born.

I'll put it this way, without the recording efforts I'm trying to save, you wouldn't have music playback as you know it now. Thank the Germans and WW II, the acoustical engineers, Bing Crosby and Les Paul for funneling the talent and money into the beginning of the golden era of recording music.

Now your hiding behind Les Paul and the Germans?

I was specific but you are the one speaking in general, irelavant terms. You are the one refering to older, poorer quality anilog sources in trying to win your argument.
I have repeatedly stated that anilog has the potential to be better than digital, No, not ealry anilog but, anilog at its utimate perfection when digital took over. You think that Doc Severnson and older Les Paul are the untimate in anilog sorces?

My original post was in responce to the poster who was not refering to car audio, just about audio in general. I never advocaed anilog for a car sys.
I'm surprised that you did not already claim that I advocate installing a calliope in a car. :wink:


I maintain that unless a car is some sort of dedicated SLP/ show car, it's a waste of money for a DD as yes, there is road and engine noise to deal with in addition to any vehcle having bad acoustics. One is then striving for an atificial sound that they believes sounds good in spite of the bad acoustics.
Now, do not try to educate me about sound deadener... we are talking about a DD and adding sound deadener etc begins to take a vehcle beyond the roll of a DD and it wiil still have terrible acoustics.

Why don't you tell us exactly what makes digital source and playback aways sound better as you claim?
Don't preach "convience" as eveyone concedes that. You speak of converting an older aniloge source to digital as if it's some kind of magical transformation.

Good analog. Give us an example. What is "good anilog"?

Bad digital. Give us an example. What is this "bad digital" you speak of?
What is good anilog?

Name one song/etc that that sounds better (or at least equal) when encoding digitally as directly compred to its original anilog conterpart played through quality playback hardware. ( I now envision you picking a song out of your hat).


........I'll put it this way, without the recording efforts I'm trying to save, you wouldn't have music playback as you know it now......
So, are you trying to take some sort of credit for that or..... are you tring to boast some knowledge of music/ hardware histrory? We all concede that Les Paul contributed a lot.
However, he did not invent muti track sound. He was just the first one to build hardware for and it was bound to happend sooner or laster. Ampeg (and others) simply told Les that with their state of the art that they could not build him the multi track recorder he wanted. So, Les just built his own .
Wether or not they actually could have built one is still open to debate.

Simularly, the Wright brothers did not invent flight and sooner or later someone esle woud have built a sucsessful aircraft.

[TOLMACH]

^SQ

We are a bit of the topic, my apologies to the thread starter

I am a permanent resident status in Canada, not a citizen, and require a visa to go to the US which I do not have (( IMy install is not progressing at the moment as I am studying now. (I am still using the oem woofers and need to do some minor work on my crossover networks) .. I would still be happy to come to the event in Coquitlam to see what IASKA is about (not sure IASKA welcomes half done systems). Would also be interesting to listen to your system.

Do you happen to have the date for the Coquitlam event?

[sqcomp]

You don't have to compete. You are more than welcome to though.

June 17th SoundsGood in Coquitlam
July 15th Performance Stereo in North Van
July 29th SoundsGood in Burnaby
August 26th Canadian Western Finals in Coquitlam

It'd be interesting (getting back on topic) to be able to plug in two "identical" amplifiers powerwise on the same signal chain, one a class A/B and one a D class, both at the same retail price point, bypass the processing and just listen...and draw conclusions.

[TOLMACH]

SQ, awesome, thanks man

You will be present at any of the above?

[sqcomp]

Perhaps on August 26th.

I know I'll be putting together my own Western regional IASCA finals.

[talnlnky]

K Debate away . Taken from a diff thread.








Keep it clean !!

Richard clark once held a bet that no person could tell the difference between two amps (by listening alone) 10 out of 10 times... he put up money too. Nobody ever won. Back then the argument was Tube Amp vs Class A/B amps.

Once you take away eq's, crossovers, and other sound processing tools there is virtually no audible difference between amps. Yes there are some uber technical discussions we could have about different qualities in amps, but really, what amp you by (all other things being equal) will have less than a 1% difference in your install.

Simply put, too much energy is spent trying to figure out which amp will sound best. People would be better off learning how to design crossover networks and tweaking with the crossovers that came with their component speakers. Crossover networks arguable might be the single greatest factor in a stereo install. followed by enclosure design, and then speaker placement. everything else is the fine tuning that makes up the last 10%.

with that said, i'll be running a/b amps in my install... but my install is far from normal as i'll only be running 460rms. With twice as much power going to my components as to my sub(s). The reason for the a/b amps however is solely because they are cheap.

[sqcomp]

This is exactly what I was divining...

A Watt is a Watt.

As amplifiers stand simply slapping in one over another I still submit that the difference we will hear primarily would be in the dynamic power differences. If I rememeber, we are most sensitive to amplitude differences especially in the upper mid range.

The subject of source amplification difference between an analog valve amplifier, A/B, and a full range D class amplifier is an interesting topic. The thing is, having heard various setups of all those types of amplifiers, there's give and take with all of them.

I agree that a tube amplifier can sound spectacular. The thing is, so can an A/B or a D...to the same level. The idea of supremacy of one type over another is arguably moot given similar ranges of specifications. Now, what specs to pic and choose from is another question. It ultimately would have to be determined side by side between amplifiers...hence the amplifier challenge.

The funny thing is that one could probably take all crunch or boss amplifiers to world championships and have a damned good chance at winning given a good effort with all the other tertiary issues to deal with in a world class level vehicle.

[_S7V7N_]

Pyle and Lanzar amps FTW !!!

[sqcomp]

Don't include speakers in this. There shouldn't be much argument about being able to hear the difference between speakers.

[patm]

"RR... You are impotent." ?????

Referring to post #14

[sqcomp]

In other words RR's arguments are moot.

Not only are they so very esoteric but they're so hugely general in scope, it's like reading a horoscope and basing your life decisions of it.

He won't answer any questions. He changes his arguments when he is called to the mat. I asked two simple questions and he could not give an answer to what he considered good analog and bad digital sources.

Oh, to answer his question about a good digital source music piece sounding just as good if not better on a digital source and digitally mastered, Flim & the BBs Big Notes album. Tricycle is another great example. Also, you notice how much he talks about the car being a terrible platform for music? One has to ask, then why is he even in here talking on a car forum about CAR AUDIO if he condemns it so.

With the way he complains about it, it's apparently obvious that he has nothing of substance to talk about regarding car audio subjects. RR needs to stick to his home audio world. You like the "warm" sound off tube amps and record players? Great! I appreciate them as well. The thing is...that "warmth" is not accuracy. I'll take the "convenience" of my 32 bit DSP and quadruple 24 bit D/A converters and 115 dB S/N and 1/10th the size of his record player...especially in my vehicle. And yes, I can take my equipment and make it play in the home audio environment...to include my speakers. And it WILL sound as good as any setup you can bring.

There have been 100's of bets placed where an audiophile said he could tell the difference, and in every case, where the experiment was done correctly, he was proven wrong. Think Placebo effect.

Until RR wants to put a true analog source in his car, his argument is compromised. There is nothing in his car and I'd be more than willing to bet even in his home that isn't influenced digitally. Oh no! God forbid.

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/765335.html

[_S7V7N_]

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m539/celebjihad/01-1.gif

Feem em to the Sharks !!!!!

NOM NOM NOM

[sqcomp]

One thing I need to note though...

THIS IS SUBJECTIVE! Each of us hears things just a little differently. RR likes his analog sound. Awesome, I enjoy it as well. I enjoy the digital domain a little more than he does. Awesome.

Are either of us wrong for appreciating what we do? Not at all. It's all in the approach. Absolutes are bad. It's like saying "I'm the best". There is ALWAYS someone out there that will beat you at your game.

[sqcomp]

Adding more fuel to the fire...

The following is a direct quote from an 8 time IASCA sound quality champion, Scott Buwalda:

"In less than a year, Jeremy and I will officially proclaim the end of the age of passive crossover devices in garden-variety component sets. In ten years, passive crossovers will be right up there with the cassette deck. It is my hope that we will be considered the forefathers of this idealogy."

"...Anything less than McIntosh in Black Betty would have been a sin, punishable with 40-lashes. But I will say to the group that I cannot hear the difference between the Arc Audio SE series and JL Audio HD series in a tightly controlled, heavily tweaked car audio environment in the G35. In fact, I prefer the JL Audio system because of power, dynamics, size and form factor, and stereo separation. This might shake to the core what perhaps a few on this very team hold as truth. I am even more convinced today than I was when I was quoted in 2004 that amplifiers of a certain quality truly do not add any value in the car audio environment. Installation and speakers make 99% of the magic formula. I promise anyone reading this, using Black Betty as a test mule with all of her fancy phase correction and impulse response correction, exposing the efficacy, ability, and shortcomings of the amplifiers, that no one reading this message right now could acurately identify the difference between McIntosh MCC602TM's and any other amplifier of reasonable quality, including Class D JL Audio. All that being said, some (including many judges) believe in the magic of electronics, and this is why we generally recommend 'name brand' Class A/B amplifiers, that don't have a negative stigma, especially in high-profile cars where the amplifiers are prominently mounted. I threw mud in the face of the community at Daytona with my D-class amplifier system, but I wouldn't recommend that as a matter of course, because the mind and preconceived ideals are far more powerful than any human interaural system."

My arch-nemesis on this topic will probably call Scott a hack or say that he has no idea what he's talking about. I can invariably say that this man has had more seat time in top end home audio listening rooms, top flight car audio systems, and recording studios (being a musician) than anyone RR can actually bring to the table on a whim.

Scott has iterated what I've been saying regarding hearing a difference between amplifiers. All else being equal, you CANNOT hear a difference between "different" Watts. If you can, you're hearing something else that has been induced.

There is the interesting snippet at the beginning of the quote as well regarding passive crossovers. I'm interested to see how this plays out over time. One should note that he's talking about CAR AUDIO. *hint hint* -for anyone who wants to change the specifics of what we're talking about in this thread.

This following quote is from an electrical engineer that works for IBM and designs his own amplifiers and processors:

"The ability to hear what you expect to hear is undeniable" -Jeremy Carlson

This goes for EVERYONE, myself included.

[RedRide]

"RR... You are impotent." ?????

Referring to post #14

I would refer you to post #18!


The net is full of posters who only post/repeate what others have posted on the net with no reguard to its accuracy.
They have become experts at only hearing what they want to hear.

Now, excuse me while I pop some more corn. :biggrin:

[_S7V7N_]

Red Ride link up to some post that support your views and opinions and support your claims. Please make sure they are recent and not from 1995.

[RedRide]

My OP in the original thread only concerned anilog VS digital sources and had absoloutely nothing to do with digital amps except to say that amps of C-64 era sound just as good as modren amps.
Can anyone honestly provide proof that disputs this?

In addition, it was solely about the potential of anilog sources and I never claimed that all anilog sources were superior to digital sources!

My OP......
I let you in a secret that many are in denial over.
Sound quality was no different back then and in some ways, even better.
Fact is, high qualty, high dynamic range anilog is better than compressed digital any day.

Also, about the only advantage of modern amplifiers is that they are much more efficient, not that they sound better than amps of the C-64 era.

Get with reality people. Those who have no argument generally make up ther own false arguments...... just as flaky politicians do :wink:

[sqcomp]

Indeed! Follow your own line of thought RR. Especially with the last sentence. Seems to me you're the only one still back floundering in the C-64 era.

Take the plunge. If you truly believe what you say, then you only stand to gain by using today's amplifiers. You insinuated it yourself. They'll be more efficient and sound just as good.

Now, knowing that you're talking about analog sources and not amplifiers anymore, do you want to tailor this debate to car audio? I mean after all, this is a car audio thread.

Should I put a winking smiley or a barfing one?

[RedRide]

Indeed! Follow your own line of thought RR. Especially with the last sentence. Seems to me you're the only one still back floundering in the C-64 era.

Take the plunge. If you truly believe what you say, then you only stand to gain by using today's amplifiers. You insinuated it yourself. They'll be more efficient and sound just as good.

Now, knowing that you're talking about analog sources and not amplifiers anymore, do you want to tailor this debate to car audio? I mean after all, this is a car audio thread.

Should I put a winking smiley or a barfing one?

A poster merntion the "C-64" and it's the only reason I mentined it. My post had little to do with car audio, I assumed it would be obvious but, guess not.

It was in respons to this post.....
I'm going to be 41 in June, I used to be one of those that you could hear/feel blocks away! I just never knew about sound quality and what was all about! I started playing with a comodore 64, Atari, Pac Man, Space Invaders etc, now I enjoy playing Wii with my family. Still love the out doors and good music!



Keep in mid that I never said that I did not like modern amp. All my present amps are "modern". I've experimented with Tripath amps for my home system for example.

Why do some insist on arguing where no argument exists?

[_S7V7N_]

Lol that's from a totally diff thread.

[RedRide]

Lol that's from a totally diff thread.

Exactly. You were the one to drag it into this one.
I guess some here hate "popcorn" . :wink:

[_S7V7N_]

I guess some here lack the ability to stay on the thread topic. It's okay a few Adderall should fix you right up. :eek:

[RedRide]

I guess some here lack the ability to stay on the thread topic. It's okay a few Adderall should fix you right up. :eek:

A fool never knows when to quit. :rolleyes:

[_S7V7N_]

:iono:Takes one to know one ?

[RedRide]

....and the show continues.

"Takes one to know one"?
I did not know that they had computer labs in kindergarten. :rolleyes:

[_S7V7N_]

:hitcomputer:Guess Neanderthals have evolved ?

Glad I can give you meaning to life for a few hours.


Just for you Red Ride ! Ever been slapped like that ?

http://whatadumass.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Air-horn-wake-up-prank.gif

[sqcomp]

RR...

He wasn't talking about me. Do we have a home audio section on this site? It seems that's where you draw your experience from...not 12 Volt audio.

...it'd be mean though for me to mess with you in there too...

S7V7N...

That post made me laugh. I'm sitting here waiting for my Kevlar kicks to cure and that just made my afternoon!

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/03a09cf1.jpg

[_S7V7N_]

Sometimes these youngsters need some Act Right !

[sqcomp]

I'm about to break out the Ensure and Metamucil...

[RedRide]

I just stated established facts and I have no interest or need to engage in a pissing match with those who have a need to always get in the last word that does not even pertain to a topic at hand.
I outgrew that juvenile trait many decades ago when I matured.

So, you guys can have the last words (I know how badly you neeed it) as I/we enjoy the show. :wink:

[sqcomp]

He he...established facts eh? That good analog source material is better than compressed digital music sources? Sure. That is in most cases fact.

But the issue you have not addressed is, how do YOU intend to apply that to CAR AUDIO. You cannot realistically put a record player in your car, what's there to do? Take your entire line and move it to a home audio section.

Stick to AudioKarma or DIYaudio sites. You have nothing to add to mobile electronics. This includes amplifiers that someone else referenced (C-64) that you aren't apparently using or have used in your car audio setup. Look at the thread title and the section subject we're in. It's a car audio section in a thread that is obviously meant for car audio. All car audio playback, unless it's a dedicated show car, sounds fake. Did I get it right? I'll reiterate....placebo effect. You have made up your mind that car audio systems sound fabricated. Okay...stop trolling around the car audio section then. No matter what is done, accomplished, or mentioned, there's no changing your perspective. So why stick around? You can't make good sound come from your car, you don't want to hear what I'm offering or anyone else on this board from our experience...so why are you here again?

Did you notice that? Take a look again just to make sure.

Now, let's talk about your experience with CAR AUDIO amplifiers and what you're currently running in your Yaris. Then let's relate that to your past statements about "old school" amplifiers vs new class D amplifiers.

[RedRide]

But the issue you have not addressed is, how do YOU intend to apply that to CAR AUDIO. You cannot realistically put a record player in your car, what's there to do? Take your entire line and move it to a home audio section.....

I never said or even remotly alluded to that or anything even anything remotely simular You are grasping at straws and resorting to blatently making things up to win an argument with yourself .
I never even remotly suggested that anyone use anilog sources in any vehicle!
You are simply and purposely taking a couple of comments and truths out of contex.

I rest my case!

Do you not realize that your desperate rants are offered for the whole world to see?

I would suggest that you subscribe to you own signature!!

[_S7V7N_]

I'm going to get RR hooked on phonics and some spelling lessons ! This guy couldn't type a coherent paragraph if his life depended on it.

Remotly ? Simular ? Anilog ?

Are you trying to be funny or just that illiterate ? Uneducated ? Or ignorant ?
:stupid:

[sqcomp]

Yup...I'm the one grasping.

I'm also the one with real world perspective in the car audio realm. You sir are impotent. Prove me wrong. Bring a car audio system to a regional championship with your tube amps and prove me wrong. You're in NY correct? Make the trip down to SBN/INAC and prove that your old school system will be everything you're blabbing about.

Guess what? You won't back up your hype. You'll sit there like every other keyboard commando and try to justify your existence in the car audio realm.

I'd be happy to meet you in Daytona Beach. I'll bring an all D class amplified vehicle that isn't a show car and have my fun with you. Here's a hint...use the tube driven Panasonic TX-5500 source and some Butler tube amps. It's a start.

http://uncrate.com/p/panasonic-CQ-TX5500D.jpg

http://www.butleraudio.com/img/tdb2150_335.jpg

Can't say I didn't give you any good advice.

[why?]

rr is a troll in the classic sense. Almost every single post of his on Yarisworld is a trolling post.

I did not realize people still thought Class D amps were inferior. I remember reading about Richard Clark and his experiment. An entire room and a full setup with everything to prove people wrong.

That makes Scott's scores even more amazing.

[sqcomp]

^I still hold out hope for RR. I have to have faith the we're just on opposite sides of the same coin.

Scott was going up against Arc Audio's best. Fred Lynch's Arc SE amps are very nice. It comes down to dynamic power and how we perceive "better". Those JL/HD amps are basically 750 Watts per driver. The best I've got is 450 Watts (@ 12 Volts unregulated) from my DD S2b amps. Bummer! :)

I was demoing the G35 for the entire day on Sunday at SBN. I cannot remember how many people I went through tracks with in that car. I'm thinking that he'll prolly have it at CES this next year unless he pulls something out of his sleeve, which could happen.

Oh! Nice fun project. My wife is going to nursing school soon for 15 months in DC. This means I'll be turning the living room into a listening room! I've got the TL MTM speaker enclosures off some vintage solid state equipment. Sorry to say it isn't tube driven...I don't have a record player either. I ONLY have a blu ray and an SACD player. Damn I'm uncultured! :P

[RedRide]

rr is a troll in the classic sense. Almost every single post of his on Yarisworld is a trolling post.

I did not realize people still thought Class D amps were inferior. I remember reading about Richard Clark and his experiment. An entire room and a full setup with everything to prove people wrong.

That makes Scott's scores even more amazing.

Spoken like a true troll!:rolleyes:

[RedRide]

^I still hold out hope for RR. I have to have faith the we're just on opposite sides of the same coin.

Scott was going up against Arc Audio's best. Fred Lynch's Arc SE amps are very nice. It comes down to dynamic power and how we perceive "better". Those JL/HD amps are basically 750 Watts per driver. The best I've got is 450 Watts (@ 12 Volts unregulated) from my DD S2b amps. Bummer! :)

I was demoing the G35 for the entire day on Sunday at SBN. I cannot remember how many people I went through tracks with in that car. I'm thinking that he'll prolly have it at CES this next year unless he pulls something out of his sleeve, which could happen.

Oh! Nice fun project. My wife is going to nursing school soon for 15 months in DC. This means I'll be turning the living room into a listening room! I've got the TL MTM speaker enclosures off some vintage solid state equipment. Sorry to say it isn't tube driven...I don't have a record player either. I ONLY have a blu ray and an SACD player. Damn I'm uncultured! :P

Why do you (and others) insist on arguing with me about car audio? My OP had absolutely nothing to do with car audio. Please don't tell me this is a car fourm. "Contex is everything".

It seems some just like to argue and show how much they know even if they have to invent an argument.
The truth is on ths thread for all to see.

[sqcomp]

Look troll boy... You're wrong. Live with it.

I've called you out and you won't prove your theories in a practical real world CAR AUDIO application...because you can't.

We both agree that crappy compressed music sounds like shit. But putting an analog record player (for instance) in a vehicle has been tried...look at GM's Caddilacs in the 70's...and failed miserably.

Why do I insist on keeping this subject to car audio? LOOK AT THE SUBJECT OF THE POST!!! It's in a car audio forum, it's regarding car audio amplifiers. Even if it wasn't, you cannot win the RC challenge.

I notice you don't actually answer any questions either. For instance, you talked about digital source music. I gave you two examples of music that would sound better digitally. You never commented on it even though I posed the question to you originally.

Again, you don't answer questions. You simply subscribe to your own opinions and provide no substantiating backup for said arguments. How many real world examples are given in this thread that really bunk your assertions? Three. There's the Richard Clark challenge, there the home audio side by side challenge and the personal quote from a car audio 8x world SQ champion.

You couldn't comment on any of them. Why? Because they're correct and you don't want to end up calling out any of them and ending up with more than egg on your face.

RR, you have not given anything constructive to this argument. You cannot back up your opinions with substance...especially in a real world application.

You are the weakest link. Goodbye.

[RedRide]

.....and the freak show contines for all to see!

I haven't given anything constuctive to this argument? You are the only one arguing !
YOU are the one creating an argument where none exists. You're like a desperate politition.... who instead of speaking to the topic at hand, they create new argument that is toltaly unrelated because they do not want to address the original issue .

Look at the original post I responded to and its contex. It was clearly in refence to the C-64 era and and not about car audio. What do you not understand about that?!?!?!? You must get easily confused! Do you even know what a "C-64" is?

I'm out of this freak show..... you can contine to make a fool of yourself......... for all to see!

[sqcomp]

What a wanker! RR doesn't answer or respond to questions regarding the subjects he brings up.

Answer the question about source material!

Respond to the articles about the A/B home audio challenge!

Give us your thoughts on the RC Challenge.

Give us your thoughts on Scott Buwalda's statements about hearing the differences between amplifiers.

Answer a question for once.

If you're so intent on telling us about the "C-64" amplifier, put some information up and tell us how it relates to this thread's subject.

AND you mentioned that the OP was talking about the C-64 amplifier...wrong post. Look at the thread again. No where in here does the OP bring up anything about the C-64 era amplifiers that I'm seeing. This is a car audio thread talking about car audio amplifiers.

[sqcomp]

Here's a nice little PM I just received from RR:

Give it up troll boy!

You are acting like a complte ass hole..... llike a spoild 2 year....a dumb one at that. So, keep acting like a little girl and cry some more for all to see. :rolleyes:

Now, RR...put up my response to you if you please. Forget it...I'll put it up:

Really? Is that all you can give? Answer the questions I put on the thread. Put a pic of the C-64 amplifier up and explain how the C-64 sounds just as good but less efficient as modern amps.

You realize that you haven't answered a single question brough up in the thread at all. You've dodged and darted without offering anything up to dispute what I've had to say.

I agree that compressed "digital" music sounds like crap. I also offered the side by side sustem comparo between an analog system source and a digital source. You didn't respond to that.

I put up the quote from a car audio SQ champion regarding the audible difference between amplifiers. You didn't respond to that.

S7V7N put up the tidbit regarding Richard Clark's amplifier challenge. You didn't respond to that.

You're not responding to anything in the debate.

[_S7V7N_]

Originally Posted by RedRide Give it up troll boy!

You are acting like a complte ass hole..... llike a spoild 2 year....a dumb one at that. So, keep acting like a little girl and cry some more for all to see.


Loll@ RR getting butt hurt. Umadbro ? I bet he broke his keyboard. I could almost feel the anger in his font.

[sqcomp]

Here it is! a "C-64"!

http://www.computercloset.org/Commodore_64_Box.jpg

This serves as both home amplifier for RR and a computer!

[_S7V7N_]

Lol @ Sqcomp. You wanna get B!tched at again ? Dont you !

[sqcomp]

I must like to live dangerously!

**rest of message edited out of pity for RR**

[talnlnky]

I must like to live dangerously!

**rest of message edited out of pity for RR**

new plan..... you are going to stop having this net-pissing contest, and instead put your time and effort into installing some tweets in my ride, lord knows i'll never get around to it(i will, but probably not till july or august at the earliest).

it is really amazing at how good two 6.5's running full range off 80watts can sound... if they sounded worse i'm sure I would've already installed the tweets and maybe even added a glassed 8" or two in the rear.

[sqcomp]

Oh don't worry about RR. He's taken his crusade to PMs. I keep telling him to go away and put his money where his mouth is. He won't. Fuqin keyboard commando he is.

So to you...we can work something out. In July, I have my Army thing going on. August might be a good time. Shoot me a couple pics of what and where you're thinking. My wife is going to her accelerated BSN nursing program in the first week of August on the east coast. I'll be "bored" out here prepping for IASCA regionals in October up in Marysville, WA. I've got something pretty cool in mind. I'll be working in a custom back seat...to make room for a rear console mounted 15". >:)