Suggestion For Automakers

[bronsin]

Why isnt anyone in the industry building an economy dedicated car? People will buy it not because of the social status that comes with a car but solely for the fuel economy. (and lets throw in Toyota durability to sweeten the deal)

Like the Smart it could have a 1000 cc engine. Who cares if it takes 20 seconds to get to 60 mph? It wouldnt need silly features like ABS, traction control, keyless entry and power locks, windows, and mirrors.

We could throw the silly EPA mileage numbers out the window also. The car would come with its own manual showing how to drive it for max mpg. So if testing and technique achieved 50 mpg there would be diirections as to how to GET 50 mpg. They could advertise "this car gets 50 mpg" and put that on the sticker. There would be no disappointments.

Perhaps the manufacturer could get the government to waive silly safety and emission requirements. I mean, it would get all the safety features and emission requirements up to say 2001. Riding a motorcycle as I do (which doesnt even have seatbelts) safety starts and ends in your head, not in the features of the car. Exempting the car from these things would also make the car cheaper and save money.

It might even help the economy, providing people with cheap reliable transportation. The car might even prove so popular it would sell in the millions, providing out of work people with good jobs.

Am I wrong?

What say you?

[Rockstar]

I don't believe it would sell well here in Australia. Safety features like abs, traction control, etc is a must. People wouldn't buy a car with technology from 10 years ago. You could always buy those tiny euro style cars that have a 1L 3cylinder engine.

[BEEF]

this is a discussion we have had for years over at gassavers. cars like the honda CRX HF, Civic VX, and Metro xfi are all good examples of cars that were EPA rated over 50mpg that we can't duplicated today.

my first car was a 3 cylinder metro (not the xfi) and it was quite the dog. it actually did fairly well considering it was right at 1800 lbs. I think stock it was 55hp (would have to look it up). my yaris is very close to that metro in size and basic shape. it is 2250 lbs and has twice the power. I can't see it doing well with half the power it has.

it is easy to assume that a car like you describe would do well. on forums devoted to economy and efficiency, that general concensus is the norm. the issue is that the general public doesn't feel the same way. they want it both ways. they want 1000hp and 100mpg. these are the people that buy a hybrid and complain when it doesn't do the EPA MPG even though they are flooring it on the highway doing 90 MPH. this is the public that drives the direction of production cars.

also, most hypermilers aren't new car purchasers. most hypermilers know that you can get better mileage out of an older car and it's also a cheaper startup cost as well even if it needs work the total COO (cost of ownership) is much less than anything new.

if you really want a brand new car the way you are talking, there is one out there. look up "3 wheel wildfire car" it gets around emissions and safety because it is a 3 wheeler. there have been a few around here for sale. I have never test driven one but they claim 65 MPG. it has a 660cc engine (used to be a 250 but it was a real dog from what I hear).

if you'd like to know more about the fuel economy side of this discussion, check out gassavers.org, fuelly.com, or cleanmpg.com. I know there are probably more. i have been a member of gassavers since 2008.

I feel you on the lack of real winners on the efficiency forefront but we are the minority as far as drivers (and potential customers) go according to the auto manufacturers.

[bronsin]

I don't believe it would sell well here in Australia. Safety features like abs, traction control, etc is a must. People wouldn't buy a car with technology from 10 years ago. You could always buy those tiny euro style cars that have a 1L 3cylinder engine.


But those things dont actually DO anything. Studies in Germany indicate that drivers with ABS have only marginally better safety records statistically. Why?
Because they tend to drive faster and more agressively reasoning ABS will keep them safe. ABS actually INCREASES accidents. I was taught to SLOW DOWN and pump the brakes. (which ABS does) Its not necessary for an educated driver.

Ditto airbags. Airbag deployment increases finger and arm injury.

No what people who ride motorcycles know is being CAREFULL and thoughtfull as you drive is what makes you safe. NOT added on gizmos and gadgets.

Of course things like the elimination of sharp objects like horn rings that break and become stabbing objects in an accident is good.

People are advertising driven crazy about safety. They think "technology" will solve all their problems.

[bronsin]

this is a discussion we have had for years over at gassavers. cars like the honda CRX HF, Civic VX, and Metro xfi are all good examples of cars that were EPA rated over 50mpg that we can't duplicated today.

my first car was a 3 cylinder metro (not the xfi) and it was quite the dog. it actually did fairly well considering it was right at 1800 lbs. I think stock it was 55hp (would have to look it up). my yaris is very close to that metro in size and basic shape. it is 2250 lbs and has twice the power. I can't see it doing well with half the power it has.

it is easy to assume that a car like you describe would do well. on forums devoted to economy and efficiency, that general concensus is the norm. the issue is that the general public doesn't feel the same way. they want it both ways. they want 1000hp and 100mpg. these are the people that buy a hybrid and complain when it doesn't do the EPA MPG even though they are flooring it on the highway doing 90 MPH. this is the public that drives the direction of production cars.

also, most hypermilers aren't new car purchasers. most hypermilers know that you can get better mileage out of an older car and it's also a cheaper startup cost as well even if it needs work the total COO (cost of ownership) is much less than anything new.

if you really want a brand new car the way you are talking, there is one out there. look up "3 wheel wildfire car" it gets around emissions and safety because it is a 3 wheeler. there have been a few around here for sale. I have never test driven one but they claim 65 MPG. it has a 660cc engine (used to be a 250 but it was a real dog from what I hear).

if you'd like to know more about the fuel economy side of this discussion, check out gassavers.org, fuelly.com, or cleanmpg.com. I know there are probably more. i have been a member of gassavers since 2008.

I feel you on the lack of real winners on the efficiency forefront but we are the minority as far as drivers (and potential customers) go according to the auto manufacturers.

Yeah my brothers 83 Renault Alliance got 53 mpg highway. I thinkit was $5000 too.

Interesting about the three wheeler. But is it legal to register it in NJ?

[BEEF]

the wildfires are considered an enclosed motorcycles. the enclosed part means that you don't have to wear a helmet. they come in a car and a truck format. they both are pretty much the same. no air conditioning as it takes a lot of power from the motor to run. I think also the top speed is either 60 or 65. I have been told that cornering at 60 in one of those things is quite an experience (scary doesn't quite do it justice).

here is a place where you can check them out at. http://www.wildfiremotors.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=26&Itemid=75

I don't want to say for sure that you could register it there as it would be something to check out. I would assume you could. they are legal in NC and VA (my stomping grounds)

[bronsin]

I tried registering at gassavers. Looks interesting.

Unfortunately they have that enter the six numbers/letters to register which is just about impossible to complete to their satisfaction,

After a dozen attempts its very frustrating...

[BEEF]

been so long since I signed up, I can't remember what I had to do.

[brg88tx]

the new 2012 nissan versa sedan is the closest i've seen a carmaker come to doing this. they dropped 250 pounds from the previous version and is the cheapest new car you can buy

[Kaotic Lazagna]

One reason, America. Americans tend to like bigger cars with some power. That's slowly changing, but that's the problem, SLOWLY.

[edmscan]

Why isnt anyone in the industry building an economy dedicated car?

Who cares if it takes 20 seconds to get to 60 mph?

It wouldnt need silly features like ABS, traction control, keyless entry and power locks, windows, and mirrors.



They don't build cars like that ... cause they just aren't popular. Where I live ... about every 4th car is either a pickup or an SUV. The other 3 are just regular cars. The econo car .. really just isn't that popular as most people here can afford the price of gas. (We have pretty much the lowest price of gas here in Alberta compared to other places in Canada.)

Now .. the speed we go in our Yaris'. I don't know about you .. but people here get PISSED OFF when they are behind me at a light. I go from the light .. and you can see them just about rear ending me. Why .. cause the Yaris can only go so fast off the light and I will be the first to tell you that it just isn't fast enough.

Re the silly features. Well I for one WANT THE SILLY FEATURES and am happy to pay for them. First of all .. air bags and the other safety features. I will take them all .. and you should too. Cause they are what protects us in an accident. When you drive a subcompact you need all the help you can get. Just like when you ride a bike ... cause you may not be the one at fault, but you are the one going to get the worst of it against a car. It is the same when we go up against a much bigger vehicle (which is most likely the case when you drive a Yaris) ... I don't think I have to say more.

[Idahotom]

As a long time motorcycle rider I always check out the bike riders, usually as they pass me! And I remember how every time you park you have to go through the drill of taking off your helmet (Idaho leaves that up to you), jacket etc. It gets to be a PITA if you are running errands in town. I often think that as I cruise into town in the Yaris with the air con on, the sat radio on, with the dog, and drinking coffee and maybe using the cell phone, that yeah you could do all that (and I did with my last old Goldwing, including the dog) with a bike but damn the Yaris is more convinent and it gets the same OR BETTER mileage! I like the better protection against deer also. Airbags are kind of cool also. ABS, don't care either way.

[Rockstar]

But those things dont actually DO anything. Studies in Germany indicate that drivers with ABS have only marginally better safety records statistically. Why?
Because they tend to drive faster and more agressively reasoning ABS will keep them safe. ABS actually INCREASES accidents. I was taught to SLOW DOWN and pump the brakes. (which ABS does) Its not necessary for an educated driver.

Ditto airbags. Airbag deployment increases finger and arm injury.

No what people who ride motorcycles know is being CAREFULL and thoughtfull as you drive is what makes you safe. NOT added on gizmos and gadgets.

Of course things like the elimination of sharp objects like horn rings that break and become stabbing objects in an accident is good.

People are advertising driven crazy about safety. They think "technology" will solve all their problems.

Sorry i think my choice of words has created a misunderstanding. By 'must', I meant its a legal requirement to have them on new cars (dam government)....

I would agree, I say too many electronics safety stuff is useless and heavy.

I learnt how to drive on an old car with no electronics, nothing but the minimum stuff from 1980's and this really taught me how to drive properly

[jayeh]

Why isnt anyone in the industry building an economy dedicated car? People will buy it not because of the social status that comes with a car but solely for the fuel economy. (and lets throw in Toyota durability to sweeten the deal)

Like the Smart it could have a 1000 cc engine. Who cares if it takes 20 seconds to get to 60 mph? It wouldnt need silly features like ABS, traction control, keyless entry and power locks, windows, and mirrors.

We could throw the silly EPA mileage numbers out the window also. The car would come with its own manual showing how to drive it for max mpg. So if testing and technique achieved 50 mpg there would be diirections as to how to GET 50 mpg. They could advertise "this car gets 50 mpg" and put that on the sticker. There would be no disappointments.

Perhaps the manufacturer could get the government to waive silly safety and emission requirements. I mean, it would get all the safety features and emission requirements up to say 2001. Riding a motorcycle as I do (which doesnt even have seatbelts) safety starts and ends in your head, not in the features of the car. Exempting the car from these things would also make the car cheaper and save money.

It might even help the economy, providing people with cheap reliable transportation. The car might even prove so popular it would sell in the millions, providing out of work people with good jobs.

Am I wrong?

What say you?

It'll never happen.

People in the US think that the Civic is frighteningly small and underpowered car. In the rest of the world it's a decently powered family car. Americans wouldn't consider it a family car. The opinion of sub compacts gets worse the smaller they get. Social status is a HUGE thing with cars.

As for the 0-60 times, people are dumb. This is why modern cars have their gas pedals programmed be so damn jumpy. If you test drive a brand new car with a touchy electronic throttle and then a much more powerful car with a more linear throttle control most people would say the e-throttle car is more powerful.

People buy cars based on electronic gimmicks, nobody is going to buy a car without a pile of gadgets.Stripping out all the electronic gadgets isn't necessarily going to save much money anyway. Look at cruise control for an example, its already a function of the ECU on the Yaris but they charge hundreds of dollars for the switch to turn it on. Its not like in the 90's when you had a vacuum controlled cruise control system.

The safety features will never be removed. Ever. Especially in America. If they do then it'll open the manufactures up to far too many law suits. It'll cost a lot to insure a car that doesn't have modern safety features. Never going to happen!

Lastly, this car already exists and its called the Tata Nano (http://www.tatanano.com)

Also, IMO, We don't need more cars. Urban sprawl isn't good, insisting on building communities where everyone needs to drive isn't sustainable. Public transit is the way to go. As a car/driving enthusiast the last thing I want to see is more people on the road.

One reason, America. Americans tend to like bigger cars with some power. That's slowly changing, but that's the problem, SLOWLY.
Agreed. People also need to realize that power and speed don't get you out of trouble, only in to more trouble.

Now .. the speed we go in our Yaris'. I don't know about you .. but people here get PISSED OFF when they are behind me at a light. I go from the light .. and you can see them just about rear ending me. Why .. cause the Yaris can only go so fast off the light and I will be the first to tell you that it just isn't fast enough.

Re the silly features. Well I for one WANT THE SILLY FEATURES and am happy to pay for them. First of all .. air bags and the other safety features. I will take them all .. and you should too. Cause they are what protects us in an accident. When you drive a subcompact you need all the help you can get. Just like when you ride a bike ... cause you may not be the one at fault, but you are the one going to get the worst of it against a car. It is the same when we go up against a much bigger vehicle (which is most likely the case when you drive a Yaris) ... I don't think I have to say more.

Is that related to your driving style? I'm usually first off the line in my 1.8L Corolla here in Ontario and it takes everyone a bit to catch up. I'll usually accelerate up to 10 over the speed limit and lock in my cruise control and then a few seconds later everyone who was stopped next to me will pass. Albeit the Corolla does have a bit more power than the Yaris.

When I was in Saskatchewan every car that passed me was from Alberta. They would tailgate me until they could pass, and a few times I swore they were going to pass me by cutting through a wheat field. Thankfully they actually know how to pass, unlike Ontario residents who will pass you at light speed just to slow down in front of you, and of course will pass you again once you pass them. It's not about passing cars that are travelling slower than you, it's apparently a race and you need to come in first.

[edmscan]

Is that related to your driving style?

When I was in Saskatchewan every car that passed me was from Alberta.

Yes .. it could be. I have a 5 speed .. so I shift at 20/40 and 50 km, so I have to shift 3x before I hit the speed limit. It is a little different than most other vehicles .. when they just have to "tramp on it". I don't let it bother me .. if they don't like it .. they can just pass me as I almost always drive in the right lane.

Oh yea .. Alberta drivers. They are pretty special .. as you found out. It is a big race and you do see it often.

Re this thread .... I think that you have hit the nail on the head. Very very well spoken.

[nookandcrannycar]

It'll never happen.

People in the US think that the Civic is frighteningly small and underpowered car. In the rest of the world it's a decently powered family car. Americans wouldn't consider it a family car. The opinion of sub compacts gets worse the smaller they get. Social status is a HUGE thing with cars.

As for the 0-60 times, people are dumb. This is why modern cars have their gas pedals programmed be so damn jumpy. If you test drive a brand new car with a touchy electronic throttle and then a much more powerful car with a more linear throttle control most people would say the e-throttle car is more powerful.

People buy cars based on electronic gimmicks, nobody is going to buy a car without a pile of gadgets.Stripping out all the electronic gadgets isn't necessarily going to save much money anyway. Look at cruise control for an example, its already a function of the ECU on the Yaris but they charge hundreds of dollars for the switch to turn it on. Its not like in the 90's when you had a vacuum controlled cruise control system.

The safety features will never be removed. Ever. Especially in America. If they do then it'll open the manufactures up to far too many law suits. It'll cost a lot to insure a car that doesn't have modern safety features. Never going to happen!

Lastly, this car already exists and its called the Tata Nano (http://www.tatanano.com)

Also, IMO, We don't need more cars. Urban sprawl isn't good, insisting on building communities where everyone needs to drive isn't sustainable. Public transit is the way to go. As a car/driving enthusiast the last thing I want to see is more people on the road.


Agreed. People also need to realize that power and speed don't get you out of trouble, only in to more trouble.


Is that related to your driving style? I'm usually first off the line in my 1.8L Corolla here in Ontario and it takes everyone a bit to catch up. I'll usually accelerate up to 10 over the speed limit and lock in my cruise control and then a few seconds later everyone who was stopped next to me will pass. Albeit the Corolla does have a bit more power than the Yaris.

When I was in Saskatchewan every car that passed me was from Alberta. They would tailgate me until they could pass, and a few times I swore they were going to pass me by cutting through a wheat field. Thankfully they actually know how to pass, unlike Ontario residents who will pass you at light speed just to slow down in front of you, and of course will pass you again once you pass them. It's not about passing cars that are travelling slower than you, it's apparently a race and you need to come in first.

I found Albertans to be friendly, but (in other Canadian provinces) I found a somewhat negative and ever so slightly envious attitude about Albertans from other Canadians.....kind of like how other Europeans (especially other Scandinavians) feel about Norwegians.

Re the 'pass you at light speed just to slow down in front of you' OMG...In the U.S. I have only seen drivers in Texas do this and they do it ALL THE TIME, and to make it worse, many do this 1 block or 1/2 a block before they are going to turn off the road! This 'pass you at light speed just to slow down' maneuver is the worst and most irritating thing drivers do in Texas....worse than the 'Speed Racer' types on the freeway.

Earlier today I was having a conversation about the difference between traffic in Houston and L.A. with both of us being familiar with both. The other person said that in a way Houston is worse because someone will be driving along at normal speed or too fast and not expecting traffic and then will encounter just about instantaneous gridlock, isn't paying enough attention, and causes an accident. He said this happens a bit less often in L.A. because there is more gridlock or near gridlock at more times of the day than in Houston, and I'd have to say that I agree.

Re 'social status is a HUGE thing with cars' (in the U.S.)....I would say only with insecure nouveau riche people.

We used to have more public transportation in SOME areas in the U.S., but 50 plus years ago some auto manufacturers and tire companies bought out some of these systems and shut them down.

Re 'apparently it's a race and you need to come in first' :bellyroll::bellyroll: .....these drivers are childish.

[nookandcrannycar]

Yes .. it could be. I have a 5 speed .. so I shift at 20/40 and 50 km, so I have to shift 3x before I hit the speed limit. It is a little different than most other vehicles .. when they just have to "tramp on it". I don't let it bother me .. if they don't like it .. they can just pass me as I almost always drive in the right lane.

Oh yea .. Alberta drivers. They are pretty special .. as you found out. It is a big race and you do see it often.

Re this thread .... I think that you have hit the nail on the head. Very very well spoken.

It sounds as if drivers in Alberta have become more like drivers in the S.F. Bay Area in the last 6 years.:thumbdown:

[edmscan]

I found Albertans to be friendly, but (in other Canadian provinces) I found a somewhat negative and ever so slightly envious attitude about Albertans from other Canadians.....

I am going to keep this brief .. and try not to piss off too many Canadians at the same time.

Let me just say that Alberta is considered the HAVE province and the other provinces know it. We don't have a sales tax (but we do gas our own cars unlike Oregon) and we have lots of oil resources so when **** hits the fan and the economy tanks we still have money in the bank.

Alberta is the only province with no debt .. and people from other provinces when they need a job make the trip to Alberta cause jobs are easy to come by here. In fact they are predicting a labour shortage in the years ahead. Even BC (one of our closest neighbors) is pissed at us as they want some of the billions of dollars from a planned pipeline which would go to the west coast.

The sharing of resource revenues is not normally done (and thus why Alberta is considered a rich province) and the rest of Canada is pretty much pissed as the Alberta government won't share with the other provinces when it comes to our wealth.

Oh yea .. re this thread. If people want a 50 MPG car .. they should just buy the Prius C. No problem getting 50 MPG in the city .... a friend of mine has one and it is a pretty nice car.

[jayeh]

Let me just say that Alberta is considered the HAVE province and the other provinces know it. We don't have a sales tax (but we do gas our own cars unlike Oregon) and we have lots of oil resources so when **** hits the fan and the economy tanks we still have money in the bank.


Hey! Speak for yourself, Ontario is a have province. We HAVE: expensive auto insurance, expensive booze, Ottawa and Toronto. We have lots of things! :thumbup:

[edmscan]

Hey! Speak for yourself, Ontario is a have province. We HAVE: expensive auto insurance, expensive booze, Ottawa and Toronto. We have lots of things! :thumbup:

Honestly . . you can have both Toronto and Ottawa. Yea .. being stuck on the 401 in rush hour with Toronto's mayor. I think you can HAVE it all .. I will stick to the west. I do however love Vancouver ..

[jayeh]

Honestly . . you can have both Toronto and Ottawa. Yea .. being stuck on the 401 in rush hour with Toronto's mayor. I think you can HAVE it all .. I will stick to the west. I do however love Vancouver ..

Yes. Rush hour on 401. I think there is a break in traffic from 3:00am to about 3:58am, unless there is construction.

[nookandcrannycar]

Honestly . . you can have both Toronto and Ottawa. Yea .. being stuck on the 401 in rush hour with Toronto's mayor. I think you can HAVE it all .. I will stick to the west. I do however love Vancouver ..

I agree with you re Vancouver, and I think West Vancouver has probably the best location of any suburb in the U.S. or Canada. There are very few in the U.S. that are even in the same stratosphere as West Vancouver that also have some sort of outstanding physical beauty and modern intrusion that is not obnoxious....a few Seattle suburbs (The Highlands, Medina, Yarrow Point, etc).....Belvedere and Tiburon (both near San Francisco)....La Jolla (near San Diego)...Lake Oswego (near Portland)....Alpine,NJ (near NYC)....and some of the smallest towns right on the ocean between Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale in Florida. One thing that puts West Vancouver permanently above these towns (IMHO, for my taste) is having Grouse Mountain in the metro for snow skiing.....so close!

[edmscan]

I agree with you re Vancouver, and I think West Vancouver has probably the best location of any suburb in the U.S. or Canada.

My parents live in West Vancouver .. at the top of the hill (1200 feet above sea level) I can see the whole lower mainland from there, and even into Washington state and Vancouver Island. I love it there ... but haven't been there for quite a few years. I am not used to the traffic in Vancouver though as Edmonton doesn't have a traffic problem really to speak of.

[nookandcrannycar]

Yes. Rush hour on 401. I think there is a break in traffic from 3:00am to about 3:58am, unless there is construction.

:bellyroll:.... The last time I was in Toronto (in 2007) I left during rush hour on the 401. I remember there WAS (now=?) a hospital very, very close to the 401 amd I spent so much time nearly parked alongside it on the 401 that I probably could have counted all the bricks on the side of the hospital:biggrin:.

[nookandcrannycar]

My parents live in West Vancouver .. at the top of the hill (1200 feet above sea level) I can see the whole lower mainland from there, and even into Washington state and Vancouver Island. I love it there ... but haven't been there for quite a few years. I am not used to the traffic in Vancouver though as Edmonton doesn't have a traffic problem really to speak of.

Wow, what a fantastic location. My aunt and uncle (in California) built their house together, elevated from the houses around them, and have a significant mountain view--nothing like what you describe...it is a great place to watch fireworks from though. My aunt jokes that they will be taken out of the house feet first (they'll never move). I'll bet your parents feel the same way. Vancouver has mass transit that people actually enjoy using (at least that was my impression re my use and the people I spoke with...I also drove around as well), but I would imagine that the bus in West Vancouver doesn't make it quite all the way up to your parent's house.

I don't like traffic either. I love my area, but Montgomery County is the 23rd fastest growing county in the U.S. (out of over 3,000 counties) and Exxon Mobil announced last year that they are going to build their North American headquarters where Harris County meets Montgomery County with the Grand Parkway right next to it. The Grand Parkway will be the longest beltway around any city in the world (about 180 miles). If the traffic increases as much as I think it will I will probably move up to Lake Conroe on the very edge of the Houston Metro and half into the Sam Houston National Forest.

[jambo101]

Why isnt anyone in the industry building an economy dedicated car? People will buy it not because of the social status that comes with a car but solely for the fuel economy. (and lets throw in Toyota durability to sweeten the deal)



Wouldnt the Yaris fit that description?
Or the Toyota Scion I-Q?

[bronsin]

Wouldnt the Yaris fit that description?
Or the Toyota Scion I-Q?

Well, sort of.

The Scion comes with all sorts of upgraded features that make it start at $16,000. To actually BUY one you are writing a check for $20,000. Or something near that. They even make Scions that have a sticker of $20,000 and guess which ones the dealers usually have in stock?

Besides the Scion has a 1.3 liter engine when it could have the 1 liter.

It probably the best bet. Its better than a Smart. But am I paying ~$20,000 for an iQ? MAybe if Im forced to!

The Yaris is a step in the wrong direction from the ECHO. Its heavier. It doesnt get as good fuel economy. It has a 1.5 liter engine, not a 1 liter or even a 1.3.

The Yaris is probably the best bet on the market however, even compared to the iQ. For what the iQ costs youd probably be better off with the carrying capacity of the Yaris.

The problem is manufacturers dont make money on small cars. With the Smart and iQ, they are trying to make us pay the same ammount of money we would for a larger car.