Look Out Toyota, Here Comes The Good Enough Chinese Car

[bronsin]

For years now we have been at the mercy of domestic and foriegn cars making us buy cars with features we do not want. Electric windows, power mirrors, remote entry, ABS, airbags, automatic transmission the list is endless. They use mind control to make us want these things. They use mind control to make us think its OK to PAY for them too.

Well all that may be about to change. Like the VW of the 50s and 60s which made as basic reliable no frills car, China may be about to rock the automotive world:

http://bottomline.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/17/13921640-how-china-can-build-a-7000-good-enough-car?lite

[Flipper_1938]

Sounds like they are building half-assed engineered and built cars. Oh joy.

[Sirius-XM]

More Yugo than Beetle.

China is no Germany. Germany had a history of precision manufacturing. China with few exceptions (e.g. some electronics) makes second rate products.

Want proof. The lifespan of Chinese replacement parts is usually shorter than that of the oem designed and manufactured parts. This includes parts made in China under oem supervision



For years now we have been at the mercy of domestic and foriegn cars making us buy cars with features we do not want. Electric windows, power mirrors, remote entry, ABS, airbags, automatic transmission the list is endless. They use mind control to make us want these things. They use mind control to make us think its OK to PAY for them too.

Well all that may be about to change. Like the VW of the 50s and 60s which made as basic reliable no frills car, China may be about to rock the automotive world:

http://bottomline.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/17/13921640-how-china-can-build-a-7000-good-enough-car?lite

[bronsin]

Just a few years ago I looked at a Hyundai and an ECHO and chose the ECHO.

Its not the same now and it wont be the same with Chinese cars once they get established.

I have a pair of Chinese astronomical binoculars 15X70 I got for $150. A like pair of Japanese are $500-700.

I dont think a lot of people will spend the $700 when they try both.

[DonM]

Sorry, but the words "quality control" are not part of the Chinese vocabulary - I won't buy anything made in China if I can help it.

[vten]

^ especially when it's related to a life and death situation... better to eat ramen noodle everyday to save up and buy a toyota

[Sirius-XM]

Binoculars are not the same as a car and one of the reasons they can make things so cheap is because of currency manipulation. That is something I hope the US Government does something about sooner rather than later.

As a manufacturer, we experimented with Chinese subcontracting of our parts. It was cheaper but we had to test every unit.


Just a few years ago I looked at a Hyundai and an ECHO and chose the ECHO.

Its not the same now and it wont be the same with Chinese cars once they get established.

I have a pair of Chinese astronomical binoculars 15X70 I got for $150. A like pair of Japanese are $500-700.

I dont think a lot of people will spend the $700 when they try both.

[DebbyM46227]

No way would I buy a Chinese car.

[bronsin]

If China is good enough for Steve Jobs, trust me, it'll be good enough for plenty more than that! :headbang:


Besides, pretty soon a Yaris will be $35,000.:eek:

[DMZ]

Chinese made motorcycles and ATV's have been imported into this country for some time. They look nice, but they have a reputation for unreliability that is hard to overcome.

One can pay $7000 - 8,000 for a Chinese product and hope the drive train will last for 4 years.

Or pay more for a Toyota product knowing it will last for 20+ years.

[bronsin]

One can pay $7000 - 8,000 for a Chinese product and hope the drive train will last for 4 years.

Or pay more for a Toyota product knowing it will last for 20+ years.


Thats the past. The future might be different.

If you would have told me when I bought my Yaris three years ago Id be replacing the waterpump under warranty at ~ 25k miles I wouldnt have believed it.

[tooter]

I think they're cute... :smile:

http://www.pakwheels.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/GeelyPanda01.jpg

That's a Panda.

The Chinese have a very steep learning curve and the quality of their cars will quickly rival the others. :thumbsup:

http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2012/09/17/parts-cd9b4518e5801ed5395854d9240d962b2fbe207f-s51.jpg

[BEEF]

you assume that the $7000 car would come to the US costing the same. They would have to add quite a bit of safety equipment to that car and emissions equipment to make it legal in the US. on top of that, they would probably have to upgrade the drivetrain (i.e. bigger motor) because once you choke the engine down with emissions equipment and add all the extra weight for safety, the little motor they put in it won't sell that car to the average buyer here in the states.

....and you have to pay to ship it to the states as well.

realize also that the emissions and safety equipment are not optional. they are government mandated.

[bronsin]

Wow that door line going into the roof pilar is right out of the Yaris textbook.

I wonder if its water pump will go 25k miles? :biggrin:

[caineroad]

Trust me... With proper quality control experts from overseas, Chinese cars will be no different than other countries currently producing cars.

Look at the products made in China now, how the iPhone is built? Their rockets and spaceships? Come on man, we all know that's the future. China will use a lot of money to hire experts from overseas to cover their weaknesses.

I bet in 10 years time, Chinese cars will be just like Koreans (KIA and Hyundai), you will see it every where. But they will not win over the Germans that's for sure.

[bronsin]

. But they will not win over the Germans that's for sure.


Germans get to drive VWs and they dont like Chinese? :bellyroll:

[tk1971]

Or... just get a Nissan Versa Sedan now:

From Edmunds:

$10,990 MSRP (base model with 5-spd) + $780 Destination Fee = $11,770

That's about $12k - $13k out the door with sales tax and $200 licensing fees.

I'd feel safer in a Versa than a Smart or even a Panda.

[bronsin]

Hmm interesting.

Cheapest Versa at the local dealer is over $16,000 though....

[caineroad]

Germans like Chinese.

[bentjazz]

I'm forced to buy too much Chinese stuff, as is. For pure ideological reasons alone, I'd never buy a Chinese car. Ever. That combined with the fact that the quality will most likely suck.....no thanks. I'm sure the political left in this country will jump at the opportunity to assist China in its ascendency to Super Power status, because we all know about their respective love affair with government control over the individual. But me, I value the individual over all else and will therefore stick with my Yaris and when my Yaris dies, I'll get another Japanese car.....

[DMZ]

Thats the past. The future might be different.

If you would have told me when I bought my Yaris three years ago Id be replacing the waterpump under warranty at ~ 25k miles I wouldnt have believed it.

A waterpump going sour at 25k is one thing.

An engine sucking a valve at 25k is another.

[TPA5]

Main problem with this? I value my life. VW may have built no-frill cars, but I actually trust a VW car to keep my butt safe. I'm not trusting the Chinese industry to actually build something that won't;

1) Randomly have parts fail or rip apart

2) Flake apart like a paper crane in a collision

I'll stick to brands I know. I'm good with being adventurous and switching up toilet paper and breakfast cereal brands every now and again, but I'm not putting my life in the hands of a country famous for shoddy goods.

[bronsin]

A waterpump going sour at 25k is one thing.

An engine sucking a valve at 25k is another.


A water pump failure at this point is totally unacceptable from a car maker like Toyota.

If they dont fix this problem I will be entertaining all options come new car time.

Yes a dropped valve is a bad thing.

But its in the past and near present and not the future.

[12 yaris]

Bring on the Chinese,What is everyone afraid of???

[Deathegg]

For years now we have been at the mercy of domestic and foriegn cars making us buy cars with features we do not want. Electric windows, power mirrors, remote entry, ABS, airbags, automatic transmission the list is endless. They use mind control to make us want these things. They use mind control to make us think its OK to PAY for them too.

Well all that may be about to change. Like the VW of the 50s and 60s which made as basic reliable no frills car, China may be about to rock the automotive world:

http://bottomline.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/17/13921640-how-china-can-build-a-7000-good-enough-car?lite

Mind control? Really? Please give me an example of how, let's say, Mazda uses mind control to make me buy one of their cars.

Also, as someone said, the safety things you mention are mandated by the government, not the automakers.

[OTA'sTOY]

Bring on the Chinese,What is everyone afraid of???


!MSG! :bellyroll:

[OTA'sTOY]

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=geely+panda&view=detail&id=9757A18A6A131DD6BDCFC22DE4D047519C0F42C8

wow rear doors open but windows popout not roll down :thumbdown: not for me would have made more sense if it was a 2dr hatch instead of 4dr

[12 yaris]

Too bad we'll never see any here,I might be tempted to trade...
Personlized plate? MSG...

[bronsin]

Mind control? Really? Please give me an example of how, let's say, Mazda uses mind control to make me buy one of their cars.
.

I didnt say they use mind control to make you buy one of their cars.

By their commercials they make the public want fancy expensive cars. Like BMWs.

A large segment of the public thinks their social status is measured by their car.

Fortunately I am unaffected by this so I can warn everybody before its too late. :biggrin:

Or they chop my head off. :cry:

[12 yaris]

:thumbup:

[DebbyM46227]

I'm forced to buy too much Chinese stuff, as is. For pure ideological reasons alone, I'd never buy a Chinese car. Ever. That combined with the fact that the quality will most likely suck.....no thanks. I'm sure the political left in this country will jump at the opportunity to assist China in its ascendency to Super Power status, because we all know about their respective love affair with government control over the individual. But me, I value the individual over all else and will therefore stick with my Yaris and when my Yaris dies, I'll get another Japanese car.....

ITA with you on everything you stated! I guess it's our Midwestern values kickin' in.

[nookandcrannycar]

Germans get to drive VWs and they dont like Chinese? :bellyroll:

Caineroad's comment made me laugh as well. I used to belong to a German cultural group (a social group) and spent tons of time with German nationals who are now U.S. citizens. Lets just say the German people are unique. Germans don't specifically dislike the Chinese, they are just very precise and don't like things being done cheaply (in a less than optimal quality sense....at least as they perceive quality).

[nookandcrannycar]

I'm forced to buy too much Chinese stuff, as is. For pure ideological reasons alone, I'd never buy a Chinese car. Ever. That combined with the fact that the quality will most likely suck.....no thanks. I'm sure the political left in this country will jump at the opportunity to assist China in its ascendency to Super Power status, because we all know about their respective love affair with government control over the individual. But me, I value the individual over all else and will therefore stick with my Yaris and when my Yaris dies, I'll get another Japanese car.....

You sir, deserve a parade! :biggrin::respekt:

[Hershey]

" A water pump failure at this point is totally unacceptable from a car maker like Toyota. "

Agree . Had a '86 Corolla with 240,000+ miles and never an issue with a water pump . Had to get the alternator rebuilt twice and did the removal / install . The alternator had well over 100,000 both times it failed . The cost was reasonable as well . Ain't what they used to be .

[nookandcrannycar]

ITA with you on everything you stated! I guess it's our Midwestern values kickin' in.

A few years ago I was at a Starbucks in a major metro in California. I ended up getting in an hours long conversation with the guy sitting next to me. Interesting guy. He was from Kenya and had come to UC Berkeley to study. He was probably in his late 20's and is a Software Engineer. He was working at Oracle at that time. While studying, he met a fellow student who had come to UC Berkeley from Texas. Eventually, she wanted to get married and he didn't. She came back to Texas and met and married someone here. He looks upon her as the one that got away. His parents live in Kenya and want him to come back to Kenya and find a nice Kenyan girl to marry. He told me he might do that, or he might stay here in the U.S. He said if he stays here, he would never marry a woman raised on either coast. He said he would only marry a Midwestern girl!

[nookandcrannycar]

" A water pump failure at this point is totally unacceptable from a car maker like Toyota. "

Agree . Had a '86 Corolla with 240,000+ miles and never an issue with a water pump . Had to get the alternator rebuilt twice and did the removal / install . The alternator had well over 100,000 both times it failed . The cost was reasonable as well . Ain't what they used to be .

I wonder if Bronsin got what my dad used to call "a Friday car" or "a Monday car". I think I got "a Wednesday car" --- over 226k on my original water pump and my first alternator lasted 159k......and the replacement is still going strong.

[nookandcrannycar]

I didnt say they use mind control to make you buy one of their cars.

By their commercials they make the public want fancy expensive cars. Like BMWs.

A large segment of the public thinks their social status is measured by their car.

Fortunately I am unaffected by this so I can warn everybody before its too late. :biggrin:

Or they chop my head off. :cry:

I agree with you. I used to live in Marin County, CA. I didn't grow up there, but more than one household on both sides of my family (but not the majority of my family) still live there. Marin County has more BMWs per capita than any of the 3,000 + counties in the United States (unless, unbeknownst to me, it has recently lost this dubious distinction). The climate there = :rolleyes:. One of my relatives worries that she will be judged and, most importantly, her child might suffer socially if she doesn't shop at an expensive enough grocery store.. I'm NOT kidding! Some friends of ours moved to Fairfield County, CT and they say Greenwich, CT and parts of Westchester County in New York are worse. With the limited exposure I've had to Greenwich and to Rye, NY.... l'd have to say I agree.

[nookandcrannycar]

Or... just get a Nissan Versa Sedan now:

From Edmunds:

$10,990 MSRP (base model with 5-spd) + $780 Destination Fee = $11,770

That's about $12k - $13k out the door with sales tax and $200 licensing fees.

I'd feel safer in a Versa than a Smart or even a Panda.

^^^^^ This

[edmscan]

I must have had a Monday or Friday car as well ... my waterpump went as well. But really, anyone that reads this forum knows that the waterpump on the Yaris is suspect. So .. one bad part, I would consider that pretty good. But .. a Chinese car, not likely to happen for me, I just don't trust them with my life. I want the airbag to work when I get in a crash. A Chinese airbag I just cannot take that chance.

[nookandcrannycar]

Main problem with this? I value my life. VW may have built no-frill cars, but I actually trust a VW car to keep my butt safe. I'm not trusting the Chinese industry to actually build something that won't;

1) Randomly have parts fail or rip apart

2) Flake apart like a paper crane in a collision

I'll stick to brands I know. I'm good with being adventurous and switching up toilet paper and breakfast cereal brands every now and again, but I'm not putting my life in the hands of a country famous for shoddy goods.

"I value my life" 'I'm not trusting the Chinese industry to actually build something that won't (keep my butt safe)' ----- I agree. These were my first two thoughts while reading the article Bronsin posted.

[nookandcrannycar]

I must have had a Monday or Friday car as well ... my waterpump went as well. But really, anyone that reads this forum knows that the waterpump on the Yaris is suspect. So .. one bad part, I would consider that pretty good. But .. a Chinese car, not likely to happen for me, I just don't trust them with my life. I want the airbag to work when I get in a crash. A Chinese airbag I just cannot take that chance.

I know. Failed water pump = possibly #1 on the 'things that could go wrong with a Yaris' list. I just like to rib Bronsin a bit because he likes to bring it up :biggrin:.

[bronsin]

Main problem with this? I value my life. VW may have built no-frill cars, but I actually trust a VW car to keep my butt safe. I'm not trusting the Chinese industry to actually build something that won't;

.

The VW Beetle had to be one of the most unsafe cars ever built. Gas tank in your lap, eggshell construction, manually adjusted drum brakes all around, and directionally unstable.:eek:

I put hundreds of thousands of miles on them and loved to do all the work on them.:smile:

If you can drive a Beetle surely you can drive a Chinese concoction. :biggrin:

[1stToyota]

Hmm interesting.

Cheapest Versa at the local dealer is over $16,000 though....

My brother was looking at a $13,000 Versa sedan, he bought the $16,000 hatchback instead.

[1stToyota]

" A water pump failure at this point is totally unacceptable from a car maker like Toyota. "

Agree . Had a '86 Corolla with 240,000+ miles and never an issue with a water pump . Had to get the alternator rebuilt twice and did the removal / install . The alternator had well over 100,000 both times it failed . The cost was reasonable as well . Ain't what they used to be .

Did the Corolla's head gasket hold up any better? If memory serves, didn't your Yaris head gasket already fail? I think it sprang an oil leak...

[junorico24]

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/A87469DBCEF1CA1FCA257873001E232C/$file/Chery_A3_main2.jpg

They are already sold in Australia.Presently there is two Chines brands in Australia. Great Wall Motors and Chery. Great Wall Motors produce SUV's and pick ups and they are selling like hot cakes. They are cheaper but not by much.You would be surprise to know they are only a few grand cheaper than other makes.

http://www.greatwallmotors.com.au/images/template/colours/V240-SILVER.jpg

[nookandcrannycar]

The VW Beetle had to be one of the most unsafe cars ever built. Gas tank in your lap, eggshell construction, manually adjusted drum brakes all around, and directionally unstable.:eek:

I put hundreds of thousands of miles on them and loved to do all the work on them.:smile:

If you can drive a Beetle surely you can drive a Chinese concoction. :biggrin:

My dad was a rep for Chevrolet in the early 70s. In dealerships they had these big clunky machines (covered in plastic) that would play different promotional videos that customers could watch. I don't know how they changed the videos (this was before Betamax). One of the videos was a promotional video for the Vega. It showed the Vega going around a fairly sharp corner and taking the corner just fine. Then the video showed a VW Beetle taking the same corner at the same speed and the Beetle ROLLED OVER and off the road into a ditch!

Beetle.....Chinese concoction.....what about the old (can't properly type this on an English keyboard) Citroen (the 2V I think) with the basket weave seats!!!:biggrin:......and of course the Trebant:biggrin:.....those polluted Germany for a fair amount of time after reunification.

[nookandcrannycar]

Hmm interesting.

Cheapest Versa at the local dealer is over $16,000 though....

You should also look at the inventory (can look online) of a dealership that has a larger inventory. Such a dealership might not be so 'top heavy' with heavily optioned cars.:biggrin:

[nookandcrannycar]

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/A87469DBCEF1CA1FCA257873001E232C/$file/Chery_A3_main2.jpg

They are already sold in Australia.Presently there is two Chines brands in Australia. Great Wall Motors and Chery. Great Wall Motors produce SUV's and pick ups and they are selling like hot cakes. They are cheaper but not by much.You would be surprise to know they are only a few grand cheaper than other makes.

http://www.greatwallmotors.com.au/images/template/colours/V240-SILVER.jpg

:confused: How do Australians (government officials and consumers) feel about vehicle safety? Less of a priority than for Americans and for Germans?

[Hershey]

" Did the Corolla's head gasket hold up any better? "

Yes , original engine and tranny . Starting burning large amount of oil and put her down :frown: . Figure the rings went .

" If memory serves, didn't your Yaris head gasket already fail? I think it sprang an oil leak... "

Yes , all is fine since the repair . It's a love / hate relationship with the sedan . Everyone or everything has its days . Keeping it until the day it craps out .

[cali yaris]

@ nookandcranny:

Singling out Marin County with an anecdotal story or two is a misrepresentation at best.

I was raised in Marin and still have many, many friends there. None of them give a hoot about "car prestige". Doesn't mean there aren't people like that living there, but your sweeping generalizations are unfair.

Are you trying to suggest with your statistic about BMW ownership that everyone who buys a BMW is buying it for the label? It's a beautifully designed brand, awesome to drive and reliable.

The logic of including everyone in one bucket because of some single fact, statistic or story is just not valid.

/ rant

// Former Marin County Resident

[junorico24]

:confused: How do Australians (government officials and consumers) feel about vehicle safety? Less of a priority than for Americans and for Germans?

They comply with safety.The biggest problem is drink driving like an idiot and speeding not the cars fault per say.If you can get past the mental paranoia about Chinese vehicles being unsafe.Then you will have a normal safe vehicle to drive around in.


Peace..Go scoop yourself a Great Wall.

http://www.greatwallmotors.com.au/default.asp?action=article&ID=21794

There is 25 559 Great Wall Motors on Australian Roads and growing baby. So they are not as bad as you think. However it is by no means cheap buddy.$ 28 990 for a suv DIESEL. Which is not bad. The Panda is less than 10K. You get what you pay for..BTW you can purchased a pick up truck loaded with features power package, air con, air bag, abs and power windows etc for the same price as a midget YARIS.:headbang: End of STORY.

[tk1971]

Hmm interesting.

Cheapest Versa at the local dealer is over $16,000 though....

My mom bought one in April with a CVT (she can't drive stick) for exactly $14,543 out the door. The price of the CVT model before tax/license was $13,250.

Being able to drive stick gets the same car for the $11k base price.

Of course, my mom promptly (2 weeks after getting it) sends the car into a fence, flipping it and totaling the car.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb282/tk1971/versa2.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb282/tk1971/versa.jpg

She blamed sudden unintended acceleration. The insurance found nothing wrong with the car.

My mom has more than 3 decades of driving experience with only 2 minor fender benders.

The insurance coughed up most of the cost of the car, which she promptly took to a Toyota dealer and got a '11 certified pre-owned Yaris sedan (no more new sedans, so she had to get used).

Don't know what happened, and I don't think anyone will ever know... but if I had to get a $11k car, I'd still consider the Versa. It's surprisingly roomy.

[bronsin]

Yes and the sedan has the 1.6 engine whereas the hatch has the old inefficient 1.8 133 hp gass guzzler.

The sedan was made hundreds of pounds lighter too which helps.

Gee if i could find one I might buy it!


But "good luck with that"

[tooter]

The biggest problem is drink driving like an idiot and speeding not the cars fault per say.If you can get past the mental paranoia about Chinese vehicles being unsafe.Then you will have a normal safe vehicle to drive around in.

My wife bought a cheap used Korean Hyundai for $3,400. She used it for 16 years, and it still ran great when we sold it in one day for $1,700 to get a new Yaris. :smile:

Needless to say, we're both big fans of really cheap vehicles. I'd buy a cheap Chinese car in a heartbeat... just not the first year of a model. :wink:

[david_827]

For years now we have been at the mercy of domestic and foriegn cars making us buy cars with features we do not want. Electric windows, power mirrors, remote entry, ABS, airbags, automatic transmission the list is endless.

i'm sorry but those are features that want, especially with things like ABS and air bags.

i would definitely pass on a car made in China, but your strong opinion on getting one doesnt surprise me, as your one of the people who would be willing to pay less for a less safe car (as evidenced by the statement quoted above), and if i remember correctly, your the person who thought the spammer selling phones for cheap was real. :bellyroll:

[bronsin]

See the post "The Most Dangerous Car in America?"

Even with all those "safety" features you want you're driving the most dangerous car made.

Better to drive defensively if you want to be safe.

But by all means "go for it".

[nookandcrannycar]

See the post "The Most Dangerous Car in America?"

Even with all those "safety" features you want you're driving the most dangerous car made.

Better to drive defensively if you want to be safe.

But by all means "go for it".

Re the specific items you listed (not the 'list is endless' part :biggrin:), the only items that are directly related to safety are the ABS and the air bags. Some people might find the other things you mentioned nice or necessary, but they aren't directly related to safety. People have different things that they want to spend their money on, even while staying within the realm of their car or cars. I don't like paying more than I need to for something that I want or need, but I dislike even more having to buy some feature that I don't want that is 'glommed onto a bundled order' so to speak -- the 'high optioned' local new Toyota inventory you've mentioned in your posts would be an example of this.

[edmscan]

i'm sorry but those are features that want, especially with things like ABS and air bags.

i would definitely pass on a car made in China, but your strong opinion on getting one doesnt surprise me, as your one of the people who would be willing to pay less for a less safe car (as evidenced by the statement quoted above), and if i remember correctly, your the person who thought the spammer selling phones for cheap was real. :bellyroll:

LMAO .. well said. Nice to see when someone's stupidity comes back to haunt them.

[xnamerxx]

Since no one here has ever had the joy of sitting in a brand new Chinese made vehicle or seeing a crash tested Chinese made vehicle I can tell you my story.

The company I work for has contracts with several firms and one of those firms makes cars in China so we see them from time to time here in the shop. Sitting in a brand new Chinese car isn't like sitting in a car made in Korea, France, Poland, or even Mexico the quality of the materials can appear nice at first but its quickly obvious that it's built down to a cost you can tell because the new car smell isn't what your used to here and we joke around the office that its the new cancer smell because it almost gives you the feeling like your breathing in mercury or lead or something else poisonous.

Well one of the things we also had to do here was demonstrate a 5 mph test, and I'll tell you this unless the quality of the metals that Chinese OEM's use improves I'll never and I repeat that never ride in one. The 5 mph test resulted in FRAME damage so we had to reinforce the front structure so much that it gained a bunch of weight simply to pass the minor accident test.

Just because the Yaris results in more injury claims doesn't mean its a dangerous car, statistics can be very misleading and even more so when someone has an agenda.

[nookandcrannycar]

LMAO .. well said. Nice to see when someone's stupidity comes back to haunt them.

I recognized the aforementioned phone guy as a spammer. Just because Bronsin happened to be gullible re this 'incident' doesn't invalidate his opinion re what the car industry wants to make us put up with. I feel it is an ad hominem illustration. Some people might feel that including safety features like ABS and airbags on his list might invalidate his opinion re cars. I don't agree with including those items, but I think that is a bit harsh......and I'm more cynical and sarcastic than most people I encounter....just my two cents. Some people might roll their eyes and feel I'm only expressing this particular opinion because I largely agree with Bronsin, but this isn't the case. I like to chide Bronsin about other things, but I don't think anything re the phone spammer is relevant to any other Yarisworld threads.....again, just my two cents.

[nookandcrannycar]

Since no one here has ever had the joy of sitting in a brand new Chinese made vehicle or seeing a crash tested Chinese made vehicle I can tell you my story.

The company I work for has contracts with several firms and one of those firms makes cars in China so we see them from time to time here in the shop. Sitting in a brand new Chinese car isn't like sitting in a car made in Korea, France, Poland, or even Mexico the quality of the materials can appear nice at first but its quickly obvious that it's built down to a cost you can tell because the new car smell isn't what your used to here and we joke around the office that its the new cancer smell because it almost gives you the feeling like your breathing in mercury or lead or something else poisonous.

Well one of the things we also had to do here was demonstrate a 5 mph test, and I'll tell you this unless the quality of the metals that Chinese OEM's use improves I'll never and I repeat that never ride in one. The 5 mph test resulted in FRAME damage so we had to reinforce the front structure so much that it gained a bunch of weight simply to pass the minor accident test.

Just because the Yaris results in more injury claims doesn't mean its a dangerous car, statistics can be very misleading and even more so when someone has an agenda.

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice(sarc). I agree with you, but I also feel that supporting things that are unsafe (the Chinese cars you speak of, removing ABS and air bags from inexpensive world cars like the Yaris (and others)) can be a separate issue (in every meaningful way) from supporting simplicity re non safety issues (hand crank windows, etc.)

[bronsin]

Since no one here has ever had the joy of sitting in a brand new Chinese made vehicle or seeing a crash tested Chinese made vehicle I can tell you my story.

The company I work for has contracts with several firms and one of those firms makes cars in China so we see them from time to time here in the shop. Sitting in a brand new Chinese car isn't like sitting in a car made in Korea, France, Poland, or even Mexico the quality of the materials can appear nice at first but its quickly obvious that it's built down to a cost you can tell because the new car smell isn't what your used to here and we joke around the office that its the new cancer smell because it almost gives you the feeling like your breathing in mercury or lead or something else poisonous.

Well one of the things we also had to do here was demonstrate a 5 mph test, and I'll tell you this unless the quality of the metals that Chinese OEM's use improves I'll never and I repeat that never ride in one. The 5 mph test resulted in FRAME damage so we had to reinforce the front structure so much that it gained a bunch of weight simply to pass the minor accident test.

Just because the Yaris results in more injury claims doesn't mean its a dangerous car, statistics can be very misleading and even more so when someone has an agenda.


I drove VW Beetles hundreds of thousands of miles in the 70s and 80s. No ABS. No airbags. No "crush zones", no nothing. The gas tank is right in your lap, theres no engine in front of you to absorb energy in a frontal crash, the brakes are manually adjusted drums all around (no power assist either) and the car is completely directionably unstable.

But at least you are inside something, unlike the motorcycles I have also ridden for a like number of miles over thrity years. Any mistakes by yourself or others results in unpleasentness.

Safety in driving machines begins and ends in your head. Because of things like airbags the public is under the impression they are "safe" in modern vehicles. (airbags result in something called "degloving" as well as amputation to an alarming degree while minimizing other things)

Good luck with that!

[12 yaris]

We will never see one in the states....

[bronsin]

LMAO .. well said. Nice to see when someone's stupidity comes back to haunt them.

See above.

You might not be as smart as you think.

[bronsin]

We will never see one in the states....


You assume the Chinese will always make cars you are familiar with.

Unlikely.

[edmscan]

See above.

You might not be as smart as you think.

True .. but given a choice I will take the safety features in the Yaris. Your opinion obviously differs from some .. and I respect that. Sorry for making a comment that may be negative, but your desire to rid our cars of its safety features is in my opinion just plain stupid. Enough said.

I think you will find that your desires will never happen as society demands these features in our cars (whether this is good or bad remains to be seen), and I don't think you will see them being removed anytime soon.

[12 yaris]

Guys,
Who in there right mind would buy this car anyway.
It will never meet saftey standards.
This is like the Yugo,a shit box...

[tooter]

You assume the Chinese will always make cars you are familiar with.

Unlikely.

Just like the Japanese and the Koreans, the Chinese have a very steep
learning curve. I predict that in the coming years the quality of their cars will rival all the others.

I was around in the 60's when "Made in Japan" was a joke. Now their products are sought after the world over for their high quality.

That's how business works. :smile:

[xnamerxx]

I drove VW Beetles hundreds of thousands of miles in the 70s and 80s. No ABS. No airbags. No "crush zones", no nothing. The gas tank is right in your lap, theres no engine in front of you to absorb energy in a frontal crash, the brakes are manually adjusted drums all around (no power assist either) and the car is completely directionably unstable.

But at least you are inside something, unlike the motorcycles I have also ridden for a like number of miles over thrity years. Any mistakes by yourself or others results in unpleasentness.

Safety in driving machines begins and ends in your head. Because of things like airbags the public is under the impression they are "safe" in modern vehicles. (airbags result in something called "degloving" as well as amputation to an alarming degree while minimizing other things)

Good luck with that!

And...Car's in the 70's didn't have to pass safety regulation, i've been in a bad wreck in a car built in the 60's and came out mostly unscathed except some lifelong neck pain and I've had a family die in a accident in a VW bug I'm not comparing a car built 30-40 years ago to a car built today in fact its not even the safety equipment or lack there of that bothers me about Chinese cars they simply don't have the Q/C on materials that makes them scary to me. I've witnessed first hand what crappy materials and a car that was reverse engineered in a minor accident and its frightening to think that this car IS for sale in the US. Yes it was eventually able to pass safety tests but that was only after major reinforcement of the occupant safety cell and even then I wouldn't call the results stellar.

To reiterate my point there is no consistency with the metal that's used to make one car to another because they don't have that level of Q/C of the materials going into it, don't expect a Chinese car to do 200-300k on the chassis it will be well worn out before then.

I don't expect the Chinese quality to get any better there is no war that there recovering from the population is to large to demand better labor conditions and the social difference between the Chinese and Japanese are the reason why the Chinese will likely never get better.

The Japanese will copy something and make a better product easy example were all the knockoff British cars from the 60's and 70's which ended up being better than the cars they were based off, where as the Chinese will copy something to make you look like you have the original product but not pay the price for it ie the huge fake Rolex and Gucci knockoff market in China.

[nookandcrannycar]

@ nookandcranny:

Singling out Marin County with an anecdotal story or two is a misrepresentation at best.

I was raised in Marin and still have many, many friends there. None of them give a hoot about "car prestige". Doesn't mean there aren't people like that living there, but your sweeping generalizations are unfair.

Are you trying to suggest with your statistic about BMW ownership that everyone who buys a BMW is buying it for the label? It's a beautifully designed brand, awesome to drive and reliable.

The logic of including everyone in one bucket because of some single fact, statistic or story is just not valid.

/ rant

// Former Marin County Resident

Reply

From a Former Marin County Resident

I agree that there many, many unpretentious people in Marin, and many of them are natives. I would also say that among the wealthiest residents of Marin, many of the most down to earth people are natives. However, I think to deny that our consumer culture is eroding what you describe (and I see as the wonderful Marin of old) is, I feel, somewhat disingenuous. Unfortunately, I think negative effects of or consumer culture are prevalent in other parts of the Bay Area as well.

I think the worst thing about the post you replied to is that it only illustrated a negative about Marin without any of the positives. I am so used to interactions (in person and over the phone) with those who know Marin intimately and know how I feel about Marin that I occasionally forget to shift gears on the internet where the audience has no idea the totality of what is in my head re Marin.

I have great affection for Marin. If I ever moved back to California, I would only live in Marin or within a 40 mile radius of Truckee. Marin is undoubtedly one of the most beautiful suburban counties in the U.S. (and I've seen many of the most beautiful in many parts of the U.S.). Fortunately, much of what makes Marin accessible and enjoyable (trails, parks, etc.) was put into place, IMO, when the government was much less Orwellian. I also think, if you don't have children, you have more options re lifestyle than if you do have children (but this is likely true in many places). Without the potential constraint of school location, you can choose to live in a beautiful, rural part of West Marin and be less affected by regulation and NIMBYism. I can understand that, being a native, you would have even more affection for Marin than I do and would be offended/insulted if someone pointed out a perceived negative without any positives. I apologize for doing that.

I think that natives don't need to 'seek' (for lack of a better term) as much as newbies do. I think this is true of Marin and of other places. Natives have long established ties with people who see them 'inside out' and whether the have 5 dollars, 5 million, or 5 billion or what they do or don't spend their money on. It is immaterial, you almost universally don't care about these things. I think if you are single and childless you can choose your own level of engagement or disengagement at will -- your own level of 'plugging in' -- and it mostly concerns just you.

However, if you (collectively) are a, (for lack of a better term) 'school age family' (any couple with children or single parent with children) some sort of integration (even if the children are home schooled) is pretty much necessary. A healthy aspect of this in Marin is that the weather is so nice so much of the time, and it is so beautiful, that kids can gravitate outdoors. They can enjoy their surroundings, influenced by nature, with great access to their surroundings that has long been in place (as I mentioned before). Marin, and other like places in the Bay Area, used to be more like this. There used to be more unfettered access. As CDPs have become incorporated towns and cities, more regulation and NIMBYism has crept in.

One can avoid this to a certain extent by living in a place like Tam Valley -- close in and unincorporated. You can still have a garage sale whenever you want sans NIMBY regulations. You can remodel your house and only have to deal with the county -- avoiding (IMO) restrictive city issues....but then on weekends in the summertime the extent of the traffic from the 101 exit, past the Buckeye, out to the ocean cannot be adequately described, it must be experienced to be understood. I think there is still less, for lack of a better term 'social real estate stratification' in Marin than in other like places, and that is a good thing.

I come to my perspective, not just from living there, but from spending quite a bit of time there over many years before I ever moved there. I also look at Marin, although not as a native, from a socio-economic perspective similar to that of many natives and residents overall. The town I was raised in, and the town my mother and aunt were raised in (in different parts of the Bay Area) each have a higher median family income 2005-2009 than any town, city, or CDP in Marin County other than Tiburon, Stinson Beach, and Dillon Beach.

DaVinci said that "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication". I think this applies to Marin and is one of the reasons one sees more 'man made beauty' in Marin than in many other places.....better not to distract from the natural beauty. This is also a positive (but IMO minor) reason one sees so many BMWs in Marin. I don't think most people in Marin own BMWs for down to earth reasons -- including all of the reasons you mentioned. I think most people (not most people you know or are related to, but rather most people in general) in Marin instead own BMWs to fit , to 'keep up with the Joneses', to be perceived as having a certain level of taste and success, and as a cultural accessory.

I also think that Marinites take the foodie culture too seriously, thus the stratification of grocery stores/markets that I eluded to in my reply to Bronsin. I think the line between appreciation and insanity in these arenas that are a part of the consumer culture within Marin, the line of demarcation, is a matter of opinion.

I think that newbies glom onto the foodie culture and the car culture in Marin to feel anchored and if a family (in any way you want to define it -- and all is wonderfully okay in Marin) with children is trying to assimilate these anchors can be, right or wrong, 'some of the grease'. They can also be an extension of the person's station, which I think is part of what Bronsin was eluding to in his post that I replied to.

A personal example of the environment the consumerism has created in Marin -- I was at a meeting a couple of years ago in Marin re a bunch of high school kids who had just traveled to another U.S. state to participate in a charity event. The kids, parents, organizers, etc. were all at this meeting. One of the parents thanked the organizers for "taking the kids out of the bubble" and almost everyone laughed.

Our culture is becoming more corporate, more mobile, and more portable. There is a book called "Next Stop, Reloville: Life Inside America's New Rootless Professional Class that discusses this portability and some of the resulting effect on our culture.

[tooter]

One can avoid this to a certain extent by living in a place like Tam Valley -- close in and unincorporated.

I highly recommend living in an unincorporated area. My wife and I chose a similar location and have never regretted it. :smile:

[nookandcrannycar]

I highly recommend living in an unincorporated area. My wife and I chose a similar location and have never regretted it. :smile:

Definitely. I used to own a house in another similar town (in the Bay Area, but not in Marin county) that was unincorporated for many years. Then the town incorporated, pushed by a few non native to California 'we know what's best' Harvard grads.

I said to myself, this is not going to end pretty, there is not enough sales tax revenue to fund services......fast forward to now. They are wondering how they are going to pay to repave many roads. I have a feeling the resolution will be a parcel tax levied against owners of any real property. I'm glad I sold that property:biggrin:

Each of our 50 states seems to have some part of the puzzle wrong. I don't know what the answer is. If each state could have the 'don't sweat the small stuff' attitude and part of the natural beauty of California, the academic results of some northeastern states, and nearly everything else about Texas, I would be happy. However, that combination is probably a pipe dream.

[Kioshi]

Wouldnt ever buy a Chinese made car.

Nothing from them lasts as good as German, USA, or Japan. <-- yes, that sounds very ignorant, but its been the truth for some time now.

They haven't got better in terms of products from China, bad fitment, etc...so dont think it will change in the next 10 years to come.

[nookandcrannycar]

Wouldnt ever buy a Chinese made car.

Nothing from them lasts as good as German, USA, or Japan. <-- yes, that sounds very ignorant, but its been the truth for some time now.

They haven't got better in terms of products from China, bad fitment, etc...so dont think it will change in the next 10 years to come.

I don't think it sounds ignorant. I agree:biggrin:.....but at some point (20 years?) China may come close.

[nookandcrannycar]

A few minutes ago I was writing a second post to that hilarious nonsense thread that two other members had made hilarious 'attempt to decipher' posts to. My first post had already posted. I clicked submit reply on the second post and got an invalid thread reply. I returned to that section and the entire thread was gone!....no 'moved' notification. Why? The replies were hilarious.

[junorico24]

As long as it passes test, it's good to go. Just give me the goodies; electric windows, remote keyless entry, abs, electric power steering, airbags all that stuff.They have one dealer near my house. I might give it a test drive and report back.They have Chery J3 (refer picture bottom) on sale.It's the size of a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic and priced as a base 3-door Toyota Yaris.Which is about $14, 999 brand new.I have seen the interior.Very basic i must say.

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/A87469DBCEF1CA1FCA257873001E232C/$file/Chery_A3_main2.jpg

But why the name CHERY? boggles the mind.

[junorico24]

Geely also has dived in the Australian market. This one is a YARIS look a like :laugh: But it is only on sale on the east coast and not nation wide, unfortunately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zxitbrq440


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LZ_TuBX4UVE/TgTMMQa81dI/AAAAAAAAAAs/QS-lUOKGbcE/s1600/geely-mk2.jpg

[nookandcrannycar]

As long as it passes test, it's good to go. Just give me the goodies; electric windows, remote keyless entry, abs, electric power steering, airbags all that stuff.They have one dealer near my house. I might give it a test drive and report back.They have Chery J3 (refer picture bottom) on sale.It's the size of a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic and priced as a base 3-door Toyota Yaris.Which is about $14, 999 brand new.I have seen the interior.Very basic i must say.

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/A87469DBCEF1CA1FCA257873001E232C/$file/Chery_A3_main2.jpg

But why the name CHERY? boggles the mind.

I'd rather have a base Yaris, sans the goodies, for the same price.

[junorico24]

I'd rather have a base Yaris, sans the goodies, for the same price.

Me and you already have one :laugh: I have a rev happy Daihatsu Charade. Not looking to buy another car.I'd let this Chinese car thing marinate first until it's nice and tender before a i scoop a Chinese car.You know what I mean? Let them get better.Experts say the Chinese will probably improve quicker than Japanese makers.I was also looking at Proton.Which probably better than most Yankie cars :laugh:


I WOULD NEVER BUY AN AMERICAN CAR!! hahaha

[xnamerxx]

I gotta ask this question...what American cars do they even sell in Australia? And have you ever been in an American car?

I've been in plenty of $hitboxes in my life and the Malaysian's, Russians, Czech, and Chinese are the clear winners of crap cars. Hell most Japanese cars excluding the big 3(Honda, Toyota, Nissan) are pretty awful, I wouldn't touch a Suzuki or Mitsubishi without a 100k warranty let alone a one of the fringe brands.

[kimona]

For the time being, I would never consider any Chinese made car.

BTW, here's a 2012 Daihatsu Charade: Look familiar!

[junorico24]

For the time being, I would never consider any Chinese made car.

BTW, here's a 2012 Daihatsu Charade: Look familiar!

That's hella funny bro.

All I have to do is get the badge off my Daihatsu Charade G200 and sticker on the back like so..
http://images.australialisted.com/nlarge/daihatsu_charade_g200_nbsp_1994_19463071.jpg

And stick it on My 2007 Toyota Yaris YRS.:w00t:
http://cdn.cnet.com.au/story_media/339308199/toyota-yaris_1.jpg

Daihatsu has some revvy engine though.Pretty fun to drive around in :thumbup:

[junorico24]

I gotta ask this question...what American cars do they even sell in Australia? And have you ever been in an American car?

I've been in plenty of $hitboxes in my life and the Malaysian's, Russians, Czech, and Chinese are the clear winners of crap cars. Hell most Japanese cars excluding the big 3(Honda, Toyota, Nissan) are pretty awful, I wouldn't touch a Suzuki or Mitsubishi without a 100k warranty let alone a one of the fringe brands.

Don't get me wrong there is some great American Automobile.But I can't help but every time I think American cars.I always picture these rides the hood thugs, cholos, crips and blood ride in.Call me ignorant.They have wings at the back.Wtf? do they fly or something.

http://images.whereilive.com.au/images/uploads/2009/12/02/048ed3afba19deda6f1f51ddddb8e7b2_resized.jpg

[tk1971]

I'm in complete agreement with bronsin here regarding all the extra "tacked" on stuff on cars that make them less and less reasonably priced.

The Echo, Yaris' predecessor, did not have air bags, abs, nor traction control. It was inexpensive and reliable, but common sense also revealed that such a small car would not be as safe as a bigger car if it were in a serious accident. People still bought them. Some who crashed in them were hurt, some even killed, but I see a lot of Echos still around, so +1 for defensive driving and safe driving habits.

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with raising the bar on safety, but sometimes I think we've gone a little too far. For example (re: child booster seats):

California Law (Effective 01/01/2012):
Children under the age of 8 or under (who are shorter than 4' 9") must be secured in a car seat or booster seat in the back seat.

I remember clacking heads with my sister and brother in my dad's old Lincoln that didn't have any belts. Now I have to keep my 2 boys in their car seats until they are 8 or taller than 4' 9".

[1stToyota]

As long as it passes test, it's good to go. Just give me the goodies; electric windows, remote keyless entry, abs, electric power steering, airbags all that stuff.They have one dealer near my house. I might give it a test drive and report back.They have Chery J3 (refer picture bottom) on sale.It's the size of a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic and priced as a base 3-door Toyota Yaris.Which is about $14, 999 brand new.I have seen the interior.Very basic i must say.

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/A87469DBCEF1CA1FCA257873001E232C/$file/Chery_A3_main2.jpg

But why the name CHERY? boggles the mind.


I think i'll stick with my Korean Chevy that's hard loaded with all the electric goods, plus 10 air bags, abs, traction and stability control for an otd price of $14,454.00 :wink:

[xnamerxx]

Don't get me wrong there is some great American Automobile.But I can't help but every time I think American cars.I always picture these rides the hood thugs, cholos, crips and blood ride in.Call me ignorant.They have wings at the back.Wtf? do they fly or something.


Remember those cars were built and designed back in the 50's when styling and tastes were different, I mean I think Utes are the ugliest things known to man but the ozzies seem to love them so to each their own.

LOL and I'm not a big fan of low riders but its kind of a bad example of a cholo or gansta car because your more likely gonna see them cruising in something like this...



http://images.autoconx.com/photos/564/516061564_1_b.jpg or this http://i.oodleimg.com/item/2938999875u_1x424x360f?1332068037


I mean don't get me wrong the big 3 have their share of terrible cars built cheaply but they also have their share of great cars but they are no where near are horrid as some of the things being pumped out around the world. I would avoid most Chevy(Holden) or Ford products because of how cheaply made they were not because its a death trap. To be brutally honest I would buy a PT cruiser before I even took a look at a Geely, Chery, or GAC made car because at least I know with the PT cruiser that Chrysler will at least make it to 100k whereas I can't say the same for any vehicle built by the above companies.

[nookandcrannycar]

I'm in complete agreement with bronsin here regarding all the extra "tacked" on stuff on cars that make them less and less reasonably priced.

The Echo, Yaris' predecessor, did not have air bags, abs, nor traction control. It was inexpensive and reliable, but common sense also revealed that such a small car would not be as safe as a bigger car if it were in a serious accident. People still bought them. Some who crashed in them were hurt, some even killed, but I see a lot of Echos still around, so +1 for defensive driving and safe driving habits.

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with raising the bar on safety, but sometimes I think we've gone a little too far. For example (re: child booster seats):

California Law (Effective 01/01/2012):
Children under the age of 8 or under (who are shorter than 4' 9") must be secured in a car seat or booster seat in the back seat.

I remember clacking heads with my sister and brother in my dad's old Lincoln that didn't have any belts. Now I have to keep my 2 boys in their car seats until they are 8 or taller than 4' 9".

Agreed. And it is only SLIGHTLY less silly than the law it replaced. The major anchor of the law it replaced was weight. I had to make sure my little cousin used my car seat (also in California) far longer than she would have had to in other states because she didn't meet the weight requirement. She's very athletic. Her mother has held age group records in major triathlons. She could have escaped the old law earlier by gaining weight just for the sake of gaining weight. Her mother was NOT going to let that happen.

I too agree with Bronsin re unnecessary items driving up the cost of cars (as I've stated in other posts), but I don't think he should have included airbags and ABS on his list (as I've stated in other posts).

[bronsin]

The Echo, Yaris' predecessor, did not have air bags, abs, nor traction control. ".


ECHOs did have airbags. I think ABS WAS an option but you very seldom see ABS on an ECHO. :smile:

LOVE that car! Probably the BEST small car ever made all around. :thumbsup:

I notice the ads for the new Toyota minicar the iQ stress it has, what, 11 airbags? :laugh:

They also go out of their way to "luxurize" that car.

A shame! I might buy one if only it wasnt MORE than a Yaris!

I think airbags and ABS obscure the REAL way to safe driving and that is what they call DEFENSIVE DRIVING. Drive like you want (others) to live!

[tk1971]

As for chinese made cars...

From a society in which every major industry has government ties... and gets caught trying to import encapsulated ground up babies/fetus pills to Korea (even they have standards).

Then they miss the point of international scrutiny completely by stating the following to mitigate the bad PR: #1) It was an underground business that the gov't has nothing to do with (kinda like they're standard line with pirated / knock off goods); #2) That the babies/fetuses were already dead (from still-births and abortions) before they were dried on hot plates, then ground up and put into pill capsules (basically, they're still not getting why everyone is still cringing).

First off, as a matter of principle, I don't think I'd buy a Chinese car just because there are too many examples of "profit at all cost", reminiscent of the games the tobacco companies played back in the day.

Second, I have zero faith in the final product, and although I don't have proof, I think the majority of them were made with every corner cut. See above comment about the "cancer" smell of one of these cars.

And if by some miracle the car doesn't self destruct and kill everyone on board, try getting parts for it in a few years. Chinese companies have a tendency to disappear whenever something goes wrong, then magically spring up again under a new name. This limits their accountability, so that thousands/millions of customers can pound sand when things don't work out.

[junorico24]

I was dropping off my significant other to the station. On the Way I saw a Chery J3 parked along the road ( must be one of the first customers) :clap: :bellyroll: So I decided to drive past the dealer and sadly there was no action in the sales yard.:rolleyes: Well, it's only Wednesday.Great Wall is doing great with their workman pick ups and SUV.They are every where in Sydney.We will all be driving Chinese cars in the future.It's inevitable.


http://www.carsguide.com.au/images/mlp/great_wall_motors_v240.jpg

[Hershey]

Read some of the parts for the YARIS are made in China . Think it was related to the manual tranny . Waterpump also ? Toyota likes to pinch pennies too .

[bronsin]

Im TRYING to influence the Chinese (who read this stuff, you know) to make copies of GOOD cars (like the ECHO and Yaris)

God forbid they start thinking Hummers, Escalades, and Edsels are cool with the public here.

[nookandcrannycar]

Im TRYING to influence the Chinese (who read this stuff, you know) to make copies of GOOD cars (like the ECHO and Yaris)

God forbid they start thinking Hummers, Escalades, and Edsels are cool with the public here.

I noticed you put both good and Echo (and only those two words) in all caps. However, you still refer to your Yaris as a good car! Good to know your feeling is 'still hanging in there' despite your extreme disappointment re the water pump.:biggrin:

[bronsin]

I noticed you put both good and Echo (and only those two words) in all caps. However, you still refer to your Yaris as a good car! Good to know your feeling is 'still hanging in there' despite your extreme disappointment re the water pump.:biggrin:


Toyota spelled the car that came out in 2000 ECHO. Thats where I got the caps.

The Yaris is good insofaras it is built from an ECHO. The tiny car with a roomy interior, lots of places to put things, no hood to look over, massive headroom, WIDE doors (2 door version) with a seating position high off the ground making the car easy to enter and exit, lightweight for good fuel economy, a gem of a 1.5 liter engine (outstanding fuel economy with lively performance) the center mounted speedo, all carryovers from the ECHO.

Now for the bad.

As in all cars the insane, drooling stupid, lobotomized tendency to make the car bigger and heavier over the years. Remember the 1985 Civic? Now its bigger than the Accord was in its early years. Basically the ECHO and Yaris have the same engine and body size as the Corolla did years ago. This is driven by the public, of course.

Whats better about the Yaris?

Dual glove compartments, the dash controls for heat, distribution of airflow, and fan speed, and the hatchback option.

I cant BELIEVE Toyota hasnt fixed the water pump issue.

[Hershey]

Th Yaris sedan is as big as the '97 > '02 Chevy Prizm / Corolla .

[tk1971]

...snip... Remember the 1985 Civic? Now its bigger than the Accord was in its early years... snip

Yep, everything's been supersized... even the people buying/driving the cars.

[Hershey]

Yep, everything's been supersized... even the people buying/driving the cars.

Which lowers gas mileage . Maybe the goverment should also apply being overweight / obese into the estimated fuel economy of vehicles .

[Hershey]

I'm about 25 lbs. over the weight range for my size . Dark chocolates and baked goods contribute to that . Brownies and half moons ! :drool:

[goliath1812]

With a name like Hershey, you can't pass that stuff up! :)

[Hershey]

With a name like Hershey, you can't pass that stuff up! :)
:biggrin: . Maybe changing it to SUSHI would help reduce the pounds .

[tk1971]

:biggrin: . Maybe changing it to SUSHI would help reduce the pounds .

Nah... too many carbs.

[nookandcrannycar]

Toyota spelled the car that came out in 2000 ECHO. Thats where I got the caps.

The Yaris is good insofaras it is built from an ECHO. The tiny car with a roomy interior, lots of places to put things, no hood to look over, massive headroom, WIDE doors (2 door version) with a seating position high off the ground making the car easy to enter and exit, lightweight for good fuel economy, a gem of a 1.5 liter engine (outstanding fuel economy with lively performance) the center mounted speedo, all carryovers from the ECHO.

Now for the bad.

As in all cars the insane, drooling stupid, lobotomized tendency to make the car bigger and heavier over the years. Remember the 1985 Civic? Now its bigger than the Accord was in its early years. Basically the ECHO and Yaris have the same engine and body size as the Corolla did years ago. This is driven by the public, of course.

Whats better about the Yaris?

Dual glove compartments, the dash controls for heat, distribution of airflow, and fan speed, and the hatchback option.

I cant BELIEVE Toyota hasnt fixed the water pump issue.

Any idea why Toyota used the all caps ECHO ?

[bronsin]

Small car big letters?

[nookandcrannycar]

Small car big letters?

:biggrin:

[nookandcrannycar]

Small car big letters?

You are definitely correct re the name ECHO being in all caps. For some reason I really want to know why. I did some varied internet searches trying to find out the answer and....nothing (perhaps I am the only person who has ever been curious enough as to why to look for an answer :biggrin:). If you ever come across the answer out of the blue, please post the answer.

[junorico24]

Shame Daihatsu doesn't make cars in Australia. What a revelation this company has been with their small but strong engine cars packs quite a punch.Throaty engine is mad.

:bow:

[bronsin]

You are definitely correct re the name ECHO being in all caps. For some reason I really want to know why. I did some varied internet searches trying to find out the answer and....nothing (perhaps I am the only person who has ever been curious enough as to why to look for an answer :biggrin:). If you ever come across the answer out of the blue, please post the answer.


Hmmm at Edmunds Ive been on the ECHO forum since almost Day One. There are like thousands of posts there going back to 2000 or so.

Peerhaps the answer you seek is there. I will look as time allows...

[cali yaris]

God forbid they start thinking Hummers, Escalades, and Edsels are cool with the public here.

Didn't the Chinese buy the Hummer brand?

[nookandcrannycar]

Hmmm at Edmunds Ive been on the ECHO forum since almost Day One. There are like thousands of posts there going back to 2000 or so.

Peerhaps the answer you seek is there. I will look as time allows...

I just looked on Edmunds per your suggestion. I didn't find anything. Perhaps I am not wording my search 'just right'.

[Absolutely Red 12]

Didn't the Chinese buy the Hummer brand?

Naw, deal fell through.

[jcboy]

i still wont buy a China Car. or a motorcycle. those are life and death boundaries that we're talking about. its not so fine to buy a china celfone, (for fear of exploding batteries), moreso a vehicle.

we have China built bikes here and the most common problems are electricals (alternators,dynamos,wiring,etc) and panels fitting each other like a glove (although the latter can be addressed by better manufacturing)

i know so because my brother is a bike mechanic, and i usually help him if there's something he cant seem to troubleshoot in electricals...and my dad used to be the area manager for Foton (a china brand as well). we used to have a china pickup truck which was from Month 1 (brand new) making all the squeaks in the underchassis which transmits through the cabin. and oh yeah, that very noticeable body roll. FAIL. (sorry Foton, this is first hand experience and not opinion)

[nookandcrannycar]

i still wont buy a China Car. or a motorcycle. those are life and death boundaries that we're talking about. its not so fine to buy a china celfone, (for fear of exploding batteries), moreso a vehicle.

we have China built bikes here and the most common problems are electricals (alternators,dynamos,wiring,etc) and panels fitting each other like a glove (although the latter can be addressed by better manufacturing)

i know so because my brother is a bike mechanic, and i usually help him if there's something he cant seem to troubleshoot in electricals...and my dad used to be the area manager for Foton (a china brand as well). we used to have a china pickup truck which was from Month 1 (brand new) making all the squeaks in the underchassis which transmits through the cabin. and oh yeah, that very noticeable body roll. FAIL. (sorry Foton, this is first hand experience and not opinion)

:eek:

Reminds me of stories I used to hear about the Citroen (2V ?) that had the basket seats.

[Superfly]

Eh, I'm not impressed. Cars sold in the states always run at a higher sales cost even if it is manufactured cheaply out of the country with low wage labor. I doubt a Chinese car would be any different in price point. Not to mention the fact that many Americans, especially today, would probably actively spurn purchasing a Chinese-manufactured car. Look at how much people detest the Japanese automakers...

[bronsin]

Look at how much people detest the Japanese automakers...

Yes theyre called idiots. Lots of them around. :biggrin:

[nookandcrannycar]

Yes theyre called idiots. Lots of them around. :biggrin:

:bellyroll:

[sqcomp]

I'm not going to invest in unproven products from China. I'll look at it in 10 years...but by then, I won't need to buy a BS cheap copy of a "car".

The goal was to "not to copy but approximate the Aygo"

*cough*

It's a copy without the technology put into the R&D. We all know how badly the Chinese are with patent ripoffs. Any of you guys ever see that Top Gear episode where the show went to China to talk about their budding auto industry?

[*MAD DOG*]

Sorry, but the words "quality control" are not part of the Chinese vocabulary - I won't buy anything made in China if I can help it.

So what do you use for a tv, smartphone and pc then?

[*MAD DOG*]

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/A87469DBCEF1CA1FCA257873001E232C/$file/Chery_A3_main2.jpg

They are already sold in Australia.Presently there is two Chines brands in Australia. Great Wall Motors and Chery. Great Wall Motors produce SUV's and pick ups and they are selling like hot cakes. They are cheaper but not by much.You would be surprise to know they are only a few grand cheaper than other makes.

http://www.greatwallmotors.com.au/images/template/colours/V240-SILVER.jpg

:confused: How do Australians (government officials and consumers) feel about vehicle safety? Less of a priority than for Americans and for Germans?

They comply with safety.The biggest problem is drink driving like an idiot and speeding not the cars fault per say.If you can get past the mental paranoia about Chinese vehicles being unsafe.Then you will have a normal safe vehicle to drive around in.


Peace..Go scoop yourself a Great Wall.

http://www.greatwallmotors.com.au/default.asp?action=article&ID=21794

There is 25 559 Great Wall Motors on Australian Roads and growing baby. So they are not as bad as you think. However it is by no means cheap buddy.$ 28 990 for a suv DIESEL. Which is not bad. The Panda is less than 10K. You get what you pay for..BTW you can purchased a pick up truck loaded with features power package, air con, air bag, abs and power windows etc for the same price as a midget YARIS.:headbang: End of STORY.

It is true. We do have Great Wall here in Australia. The ute's do sell as they are priced to do so. They scrape in and meet the minimum Australian design standards. That's how they are in our market. Only tight arses purchase these vehicles.

However, I would not be caught dead in one and they still use asbestos in their cars, making these cars a real problem in my opinion. Who knows what else they are using to manufacture these cheap, tacky, nasty pieces of crap? Lead paint? Depleted uranium doors?

They recalled almost 25,000 of the cars just on the asbestos use alone http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/exclusive-chinese-car-asbestos-scare-20120814-246a8.html

An example of how crap these vehicles are is the only way to put the 4 cyclinder X240 into 4WD mode is to turn the steering on full lock and putting it into reverse. This is a review of the Great Wall X240 http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/great-wall-torture-test-20120810-23xtz.html While it survived a trip over 1100 sand dunes in arguably one of the harshest climates in the world, I still would not own one, nor get in one.

[bronsin]

However, I would not be caught dead in one and they still use asbestos in their cars, making these cars a real problem in my opinion. Who knows what else they are using to manufacture these cheap, tacky, nasty pieces of crap? Lead paint? Depleted uranium doors?


Obviously this is a marketing statagy designed to appeal to the Aussie sense of ruggedness.

"Come with me babe. My car has ASBESTOS in it! And which is more dangerous the asbestos or me...well...you'll have to find that out for yourself!"

[nookandcrannycar]

Obviously this is a marketing statagy designed to appeal to the Aussie sense of ruggedness.

"Come with me babe. My car has ASBESTOS in it! And which is more dangerous the asbestos or me...well...you'll have to find that out for yourself!"

:bellyroll:

[TPA5]

I'll chance it with off-brand breakfast cereal and socks, but I gotta say I'd feel less comfortable with off-brand cars that hurtle me down the pavement at 100km/h. Because really I'd prefer to not have pieces of my vehicle tear off in a high-wind while my brakes disintegrate because they're made from rice paper and the tears of small children.

[*MAD DOG*]

I'll chance it with off-brand breakfast cereal and socks, but I gotta say I'd feel less comfortable with off-brand cars that hurtle me down the pavement at 100km/h. Because really I'd prefer to not have pieces of my vehicle tear off in a high-wind while my brakes disintegrate because they're made from rice paper and the tears of small children.

:thumbsup:

[nookandcrannycar]

I'll chance it with off-brand breakfast cereal and socks, but I gotta say I'd feel less comfortable with off-brand cars that hurtle me down the pavement at 100km/h. Because really I'd prefer to not have pieces of my vehicle tear off in a high-wind while my brakes disintegrate because they're made from rice paper and the tears of small children.

^^^^^ This. Plus the asbestos issue. Ugh. I guess a more accurate way to refer to myself would be frugal, rather than cheap. One Aussie member referred to the 'cheap arses' in his country who buy some of the Chinese cars. I would pay more just to be asbestos free (as in not purchasing a car from a Chinese manufacturer).

[nookandcrannycar]

On the Bloomberg scrolling ticker this morning - 'China will have a global automaker within 10 years'

[bronsin]

That certainly is a possibility.

But I have to change my position here. I doubt very much we will see truly cheap cars from China here. Cars in the US are EXPENSIVE. Read PROFITS. China will want to take advantage of that.

[junorico24]

http://www.carsguide.com.au/news-and-reviews/car-reviews-road-tests/chery_j3_first_drive_review

DRIVING

Here’s the most surprising part: the Chery J3 actually drives quite well. In fact, I’d venture to say it feels like the most complete Chinese car I’ve driven to date. That’s not damning it with faint praise, but it does come with a few qualifications. The 1.6-litre is a little breathless and needs to be revved to really get moving. And although the engine itself is quite smooth and refined, Chery is yet to master the craft of noise deadening, so you hear more of the engine’s goings-on that you do in other cars.

MPG is a bit dissapointing.

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/content/image/2/0/2011_chery_j3_02-4e78006eb93c6.jpg

[why?]

it seems like people do not know Daihatsu is fully owned by Toyota, well by Japanese standards, which means Toyota owns 51%.

look what the koreans did in twenty years? The original hyundai excel was a piece of garbage, and now they are making cars that are actually desirable.

The Chinese car makers have a gigantic advantage since they can steal all the plans and info from non-chinese brands that choose to do business in china.

And while the qc is probably horrific, if you price a car 3 or 4 grand below the least expensive car in a market, they will sell. Just look at Yugo.

Oh, and people don't want air bags, abs, or nannies. They are all required by law. Air bags are not safe. They do prevent deaths, and that is proven, yet they also cause horrific injury to anyone who isn't the perfect 6'2" and 180 lbs. This cannot be disputed.

If you believe we live in a free society, people should be allowed to choose for themselves if they want an airbag or not. The crash stats are easy to find. (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s1103.pdf) People can choose for themselves whether having an explosive device that could save their lives, or injure them horribly is a good idea or not.

[nookandcrannycar]

it seems like people do not know Daihatsu is fully owned by Toyota, well by Japanese standards, which means Toyota owns 51%.

I do. I brought it up on a thread last year.

look what the koreans did in twenty years? The original hyundai excel was a piece of garbage, and now they are making cars that are actually desirable.

I agree

The Chinese car makers have a gigantic advantage since they can steal all the plans and info from non-chinese brands that choose to do business in china.

I strongly agree

And while the qc is probably horrific, if you price a car 3 or 4 grand below the least expensive car in a market, they will sell. Just look at Yugo.

I agree

Oh, and people don't want air bags, abs, or nannies. They are all required by law. Air bags are not safe. They do prevent deaths, and that is proven, yet they also cause horrific injury to anyone who isn't the perfect 6'2" and 180 lbs. This cannot be disputed.

I agree. The way you put this made me LOL. For some reason I find the thought of a serious company trying to make a crash test dummy that looks like the 'average American' rather than 'Ken' hilarious.

If you believe we live in a free society, people should be allowed to choose for themselves if they want an airbag or not. The crash stats are easy to find. (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s1103.pdf) People can choose for themselves whether having an explosive device that could save their lives, or injure them horribly is a good idea or not.

I agree, but I don't think this is a popular view (which I'm sure has already occurred to you).

[bronsin]

Pretty much the car companies to surveys to tell them what people want.

Thats what they build.

If they build it people want it, as a rule of thumb.

Which is why I dont get what I want.:frown:

[junorico24]

it seems like people do not know Daihatsu is fully owned by Toyota, well by Japanese standards, which means Toyota owns 51%.
.

I agree..

http://www.hurricaneperformancevictoria.com.au/images/daihatsu.jpg

http://www.hispanosnet.com/autos_coches/imagenes/materia_1.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hREYp5X8adM/TWQ_w4tU19I/AAAAAAAEBMI/_Q83uEeNYJQ/s800/nEW-dAIHATSU-cHARADE-2.jpg

:coolpics:

[junorico24]

The aggregate production of cars worldwide, including the production of Daihatsu Motor Co. and Hino Motors Ltd., is expected to exceed 10 million units

http://www.profi-forex.us/news/entry4000004500.html

http://daihatsu.cararchives.net/images/daihatsu/1997-daihatsu-charade-12324.jpg


Toyota knows the talent and potential of Daihatsu in building pocket rockets. :headbang:

[why?]

I agree, but I don't think this is a popular view (which I'm sure has already occurred to you).

Oh it has. I am used to being totally alone in my viewpoints. It hasn't stopped me yet.

You'd think Toyota would have imported Daihatsu to the US instead of faking a brand and naming it Scion.

[nookandcrannycar]

Oh it has. I am used to being totally alone in my viewpoints. It hasn't stopped me yet.

You'd think Toyota would have imported Daihatsu to the US instead of faking a brand and naming it Scion.

LOL. I'm in touch with that mindset. One of my cousins (the mom of my little cousin who inspired my Yarisworld screen name) is a 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' type and she often rolls her eyes re the way I look at certain things. I also have attorney relatives who have tried to 'debate me off my opinion perch' re a couple of specific issues, but have yet to succeed.

I wish that for the 2013 model year the USDM effectively (like Europe) had a 2nd Gen and a 3rd Gen Yaris on sale at the same time.

[junorico24]

http://images-2.drive.com.au/2011/01/28/2156511/geely_420.jpg?rand=1296187546921

GEELY is only sold in Western Australia in Perth not nation wide as of yet.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/geely_badge_001.jpg

[nookandcrannycar]

http://images-2.drive.com.au/2011/01/28/2156511/geely_420.jpg?rand=1296187546921

GEELY is only sold in Western Australia in Perth not nation wide as of yet.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/geely_badge_001.jpg

The headlights and grill (in the top pic) make the front of the car look like the face of 'Mr. Bill' (1970s and 1980s Saturday Night Live + movie) :biggrin:.

[edmscan]

The headlights and grill (in the top pic) make the front of the car look like the face of 'Mr. Bill' (1970s and 1980s Saturday Night Live + movie) :biggrin:.

All I know .. is that is one funny looking ugly car.

[nookandcrannycar]

All I know .. is that is one funny looking ugly car.

But you haven't seen the other sides :biggrin:.

[why?]

LOL. I'm in touch with that mindset. One of my cousins (the mom of my little cousin who inspired my Yarisworld screen name) is a 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' type and she often rolls her eyes re the way I look at certain things. I also have attorney relatives who have tried to 'debate me off my opinion perch' re a couple of specific issues, but have yet to succeed.

I wish that for the 2013 model year the USDM effectively (like Europe) had a 2nd Gen and a 3rd Gen Yaris on sale at the same time.

I have a tendency to tell people like that,"if there are too many people who think like you do, your thoughts are probably flat out wrong."

It especially becomes obvious when people take opinions that are not thought out at all, or barely thought out. And when you point this out, with examples ad naseum, they still won't change their mind.

it is why we are all heading for a whole world of trouble.

It will be interesting to see if these chinese cars can succeed in Australia. I do hope so. If anything, i hope they keep prices down.

[nookandcrannycar]

I have a tendency to tell people like that,"if there are too many people who think like you do, your thoughts are probably flat out wrong."

Sometimes, when I want to push these/such people's buttons, I'll tell them they are being part of the sheeple :biggrin:.

It especially becomes obvious when people take opinions that are not thought out at all, or barely thought out. And when you point this out, with examples ad naseum, they still won't change their mind.

I agree. I think what is equally as (or perhaps even more) pathetic and or frustrating are people who have thought out their opinions and know all the arguments for their 'side' and are just going to end up being wrong. The common denominator between these two groups, IMO, is that with both their views stem from one or more components of their upbringing (where emotion is involved) rather than any intellectual rigor they may or may not have devoted to the issue at hand.

it is why we are all heading for a whole world of trouble.

I agree, and I know smart people on both sides of the 'intellectual coin' who agree re this statement of yours and essentially agree on nothing else. I do think though, that some will navigate the trouble better than others. I sometimes wonder if the trouble accelerated (and I wouldn't necessarily mind that), would we have a better chance in the aftermath for change that would actually work.

It will be interesting to see if these chinese cars can succeed in Australia. I do hope so. If anything, i hope they keep prices down.

Yes, it will be interesting to see.