aem fic on an N/A motor?

[BEEF]

I've been doing some thinking of what my next step will be with my car. I don't think I want to go boosted and thus have been limited by what can be done. I have done most of the bolt-ons already.

I wonder, are there any advantages of fuel management on a non-boosted yaris? Can you control timing? Am I pissin' in the wind on this one?

Currently, I have done:

-AFE SRI intake
-Weapon-R header
-2" mandrel bent exhaust with straight through muffler

(not for power)
-White line sway bar
-HHR springs
-MI short shifter
-MI shift extender with metal cable bushings
-added a tachometer

I am planning on doing the lighter crank pulley but not sure where to head after that. I have been told that lighter wheels would make a difference but I kind of like the look of mine at least for now.

any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks
-BEEF

[fnkngrv]

The short answer is no. The Yaris ECU is a learning ECU and is VERY good at it. Even in a boosted setup you have to reset your ECU every so often because it will override the maps in the FIC during its adjustment for the long term fuel trim. You will spend close to a thousand bucks to install the FIC in parts (FIC, wideband kit, harness) to see minimal gains. On an NA build even a full stand alone would be the only way to go and that would be if you upgraded cams, port/polish head, valvetrain work, real intake upgrades, etc.

I really don't care what a lot of folks want to say, but at this point myself, and several others that I work with/talk to on a regular basis all agree that the FIC is merely a bandaid fix on this car since it is just a piggyback. Other makes/models it is a more powerful tool, but not with our ECU.

[suckerface]

I'll agree with fnkngrv. Go for a lighter pulley for sure, but also consider a larger throttle body (1ZZ) and port matching the IM, or waiting and getting the one Garm has been working on producing, which should already be ported for the 1ZZ.

What about your shocks? I know it's not a power increase, but if you're running on stock shocks with after market springs, you're shortening the lifespan on them drastically. dstrick has a set of Tokico Blues for a REALLY good price, and he's really easy to work with, if you want something cheap. Otherwise, as I'm sure you know, Garm has a great selection as well.

Along the lines of lighter wheels, there's general weight reduction. Remove the back seat, spare, etc...or go a bit more "extreme" and pull your A/C, passenger seat, and other internal "non-necessities." I know for most, myself included, these aren't viable options, just something to consider.

[BEEF]

Thanks guys, I have been thinking about the next steps for me. My car isn't a daily driver but has to perform those duties so I can't go but so wild with it.

I have concerns about the intake manifold. It will probably be expensive and the dyno graph didn't show any peak power (if my memory serves me) only power lower in the band and it was rolling too. It didn't seem even. Maybe that is just my inexperience with it talking. I have also heard that going with a 1ZZ throttle body can be difficult. I honestly need to do more reading on that.

When I changed out the springs, I tried to get ones with a mild drop with the intent of using the stock shocks for a while. My car has less than 30,000 miles on it so my hope is that the shocks will last a while at least. I don't drive it much.

I can't really take out the seats as I have a daughter and her car seat is a permanent fixture. She is currently in the "racing seat" (the cheesy one with the 5-point harness). I am waiting for her to get in the "half seat" and things will be much better and flexible.

I have been told by a few people (including garm) that with what I have done...and the pulley, I should expect around 105whp. I would love to get that number around 110-115. I am not sure this is fesable without doing something drastic but it would be nice.

[1.5]

I disagree. You can absolutely make fine tune adjustments using a managements system by adjusting timing, A/F ratio, etc. It won't necessarily create power but it will free up some power.

I will agree with fnkngrv it will most likely not be worth the amount of money you will spend to purchase/install/tune. I have short ram/headers/exahaust/ssk just like you and I want to pretty much go the same path as you. At our stage now we could possibly gain ~10whp out of the current mods by going with a management system. The question is, is ~$1000 worth ~10whp?

There are still other mods you can do going N/A that will give you a few more ponies and if combined with the management will free up even more power. 1zz tb, cams (although these will greatly change your torque curve), the new MI IM when it's released, pulley, gutting your rear. Adding these other mods will help a little and when that is fine tuned with a management system you deff can release some nice power. Not all of these will generate new power can help applying power to the ground.

Also don't forget how light our cars are and a dozen or so hp could make a very noticeable imporovement.

[BEEF]

1.5,

I definitely agree about a few horses make a huge difference. In our case, you can't look at raw numbers. Percentages work great though. I have heard that a stick shift yaris has about 90hp at the wheels. If I can get myself to 105, that is an increase of ~16.5%. That is significant regardless of any other factor. The weight is a huge advantage too. I can't really lighten my load any as I use all the seats (on occasion).

A good friend of mine (the one that helped with the exhuast) pointed out that I am at the point where I need to either be happy with the small bolt-ons or go big. I don't think I will be happy putting that kind of money into the fic and only seeing minimal gains.

I am intrigued by the intake manifold but am having a hard time justifying that type of money for something that I am not 100% sure about (power wise). I have heard to expect around $500 for it. There again, that may change up or down some. I also would love to see a dyno graph of swapping the manifold and to a 1ZZ throttle body.

[Jason@SportsCar]

The other option is shifting the mechanical advantage more in your favor, so you can make better use of the power you have... Lightened flywheel, LSD and an xB final drive swap will gain you more acceleration than all of the engine bolt-ons.

[1.5]

Yea I understand the $ to hp ratio is alarming but thats part of modding an econo car.

Right now I would imagine you're already at 105whp with your mods, If you added some more breating mods and a management system I could see you getting close to 120 whp. And then any drivetrain mods may help actually feeling the power.

You are right its about % so going from 90-105 or 105-120 is a very nice power gain for a ~2k lb car.

The IM is pricey but the dyno on MI shows a very nice midrange hp bump plus there is also the swag, opening the hood and seeing a beastly polished IM lol.

[BEEF]

jason,

I know I am going to regret asking this but how hard is the final drive swap? how expensive is the xB final drive?

I used to have a dodge dakota that was a rocket ship (at least to me) and the best thing I ever did was go from 3.55s to 4.10s in the rear.

1.5,

I'm not that much into show. I would rather have a fast car than a showy car. I know that is personal preference. I think I may be hard pressed to get to 120 without any serious work. There was a guy on here that went with prius pistons (13:1 if I remember right) but he hasn't posted in a while. the assumption is that he started predetonating and his motor is toast. We don't know that for sure though.

[suckerface]

FWIW, I've been running the 1ZZ TB for over a year, and have had little to no problems. If you get one, just be sure to get one where the part number ends in 030. You'll have high idle at cold, but once it warms up, it levels off just fine.

I get your point on the IM. Little gain for a rather steep price, but it is a gain none the less. Cheaper than boosting, am I right?

Once I get the IM put on with my 1ZZ, I'll do a dyno so I can show results. I don't think the 1ZZ adds a lot (if any) but throttle response is WAY better, so it satisfies the butt dyno.

I've been entertaining the idea of the xB final drive swap that Jason mentioned. While it will give you better acceleration, it does so at the cost of fuel economy. I'm in the same boat as you, where my car is my DD so I can't go too wild with it yet, which is my hesitation on the swap.

I'm hoping to get a new engine and transmission and build that up, and do a complete swap sometime in the next year or two, while adding some basic-ish bolt ons to my DD, and the huge weight reductions (A/C, seats, etc) are out of the question (for now).

Feel free to PM me any questions you have on the 1ZZ TB, I'll gladly help you find the right part and help with getting it on (you'll need a larger adapter for your intake, FYI).

Your shocks should be fine for a while (I'm at 95k, and I hear them squeak constantly on MI springs). The way I look at it, though, is my luck would be that the shocks will go and I'll be without the car until I can get new ones. That's why I jumped on an inexpensive pair, and will be putting them on in the spring (going back to stock for the winter).

[fnkngrv]

I disagree. You can absolutely make fine tune adjustments using a managements system by adjusting timing, A/F ratio, etc. It won't necessarily create power but it will free up some power.

The key to this statement is "management system". The FIC is not a management system. It very well may behoove to go full standalone even if you aren't going to go FI. Jason can attest to that one along with those shifting elements he is talking about. At least with a full standalone as well you get to bump the rev limiter beyond the very conservative 6250. In this case since you are increasing your band I would think that it would deliver you better performance especially if you install a lighter weight flywheel and clutch assembly because you will build those RPMs faster. There are always folks looking to sell used standalone systems like the AEM EMS systems since the version 4 has come out. You could quite possibly get a decent deal on a V3 or even V2. Just a thought.

[Jason@SportsCar]

jason,

I know I am going to regret asking this but how hard is the final drive swap? how expensive is the xB final drive?

I used to have a dodge dakota that was a rocket ship (at least to me) and the best thing I ever did was go from 3.55s to 4.10s in the rear.

1.5,

I'm not that much into show. I would rather have a fast car than a showy car. I know that is personal preference. I think I may be hard pressed to get to 120 without any serious work. There was a guy on here that went with prius pistons (13:1 if I remember right) but he hasn't posted in a while. the assumption is that he started predetonating and his motor is toast. We don't know that for sure though.

The parts are around $500, the rest is labor. We take the trans to the shop already out of the car, and it has been around $400 for the swap.

Part numbers are here: http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29864

[Jason@SportsCar]

The key to this statement is "management system". The FIC is not a management system. It very well may behoove to go full standalone even if you aren't going to go FI. Jason can attest to that one along with those shifting elements he is talking about. At least with a full standalone as well you get to bump the rev limiter beyond the very conservative 6250. In this case since you are increasing your band I would think that it would deliver you better performance especially if you install a lighter weight flywheel and clutch assembly because you will build those RPMs faster. There are always folks looking to sell used standalone systems like the AEM EMS systems since the version 4 has come out. You could quite possibly get a decent deal on a V3 or even V2. Just a thought.

I am not familiar with the FIC. However, I do know prior to going with the AEM EMS 2 we successfully made power with the Camcon unit - the car never readjusted to the changes we made with it, and did not lose power over time. The limit to the Camcon was only being able to tune within certain RPM windows (500rpm steps), and we could not get past the stock 6500rpm rev limiter, the EMS gave us more flexibility and ultimately more power.

The hot setup on a budget is finding a Camcon, they seem to go for around $300, and for another $300 in dyno time you can make solid hp/tq increases. But if you really want to uncork what is already in the engine you need something like the AEM EMS.

[1.5]

Yea BEEF, management and other mods may help but you pretty much have maxed out your power gain unless you are willing to spend a lot more money. Drivetrain (power to the ground) mods may be your best bet.

There you go Jason can attest to some gains by going with a piggyback style management.

Thad, I want to do that mod too, for some reason it scares me.

[xnamerxx]

1.5,

I definitely agree about a few horses make a huge difference. In our case, you can't look at raw numbers. Percentages work great though. I have heard that a stick shift yaris has about 90hp at the wheels. If I can get myself to 105, that is an increase of ~16.5%. That is significant regardless of any other factor. The weight is a huge advantage too. I can't really lighten my load any as I use all the seats (on occasion).

A good friend of mine (the one that helped with the exhuast) pointed out that I am at the point where I need to either be happy with the small bolt-ons or go big. I don't think I will be happy putting that kind of money into the fic and only seeing minimal gains.


You can cut quite a bit of weight if you know where to look. There is roughly 50-60 lbs to be had in the front seats another 15-25 in the battery depending on how you do that, another 25 in the exhaust and another 5-50 in the wheels and tires. If you maxed all of that out you're base weight is already down 150 lbs which is pretty substantial.


Its about managing expectations...I'd be willing to bet a full long tube header with 1.38 tubing roughly 60" long would make some large gains in the upper rpm range. But it all depends on what's worth it to you.

[suckerface]

It's a SUPER easy mod to do. Just be sure to get the right parts, and it's a quick, direct swap.

[BEEF]

suckerface,

I think my car is drive by wire so is the new TB drive by wire? also, I was under the assumption that it didn't do much for you since the MAF sensor is calibrated to a certain diameter tube so you always have to have that size tube where the MAF sensor is. That will always be the bottle neck. Is the current TB smaller than where the MAF sits? I know, a lot of questions.

Jason (or anyone),

the final drive on the xB that you speak of is basically 4.3:1, what is the stock yaris one? I just wonder how gonzo it will be. I actually like that idea. I am gettin roughly 40-41 mpg right now and I could stand to lose a few. I would be alright still getting 35 or so.

[1.5]

I wish they made race headers for this car ^^

[xnamerxx]

I've got one on paper but its geared more toward my application so its not a one size fits all deal. I'll hopefully have it built before the end of the year. I have expected gains but I won't know anything until it actually gets made.

[Jason@SportsCar]

Jason (or anyone),

the final drive on the xB that you speak of is basically 4.3:1, what is the stock yaris one? I just wonder how gonzo it will be. I actually like that idea. I am gettin roughly 40-41 mpg right now and I could stand to lose a few. I would be alright still getting 35 or so.

Stock is 3.722, xB is 4.312.

At 65mph in 5th gear (with a 23" tire):
stock 2900rpm
xB 3350rpm

If you look at "rated" fuel economy numbers a 2007 Yaris is rated 29 city/35 hwy, the xB is listed at 27/32. I would expect part of the hwy loss on the xB due to it being a toaster on wheels, with that in mind I would guess that this change is about a 2mpg loss in a Yaris - but worth it for the acceleration.

[suckerface]

suckerface,

I think my car is drive by wire so is the new TB drive by wire? also, I was under the assumption that it didn't do much for you since the MAF sensor is calibrated to a certain diameter tube so you always have to have that size tube where the MAF sensor is. That will always be the bottle neck. Is the current TB smaller than where the MAF sits? I know, a lot of questions.

The new TB will be plug and play (as long as it's the 0D030) From my understanding, the MAF is indeed calibrated for a certain tube size, but once it gets to the TB you'll have a larger velocity of air being pushed into the engine, and that's what the ECU needs to re-learn and level out the idle for (ANYONE feel free to correct how wrong I am). It's mostly just better throttle response. As I said, no huge gains, but is a good addition to other aspiration mods, be it N/A or F/I.

[suckerface]

Stock is 3.722, xB is 4.312.

At 65mph in 5th gear (with a 23" tire):
stock 2900rpm
xB 3350rpm

If you look at "rated" fuel economy numbers a 2007 Yaris is rated 29 city/35 hwy, the xB is listed at 27/32. I would expect part of the hwy loss on the xB due to it being a toaster on wheels, with that in mind I would guess that this change is about a 2mpg loss in a Yaris - but worth it for the acceleration.

I think that statement just pushed me over the edge to track down an xB transmission for next summer. Thanks Jason, I hate you sometimes :tongue:

[Jason@SportsCar]

I think that statement just pushed me over the edge to track down an xB transmission for next summer. Thanks Jason, I hate you sometimes :tongue:

The trans is not a bolt-in, you can only use the gears, the case is different. For what you would spend on a used (unknown condition) trans you can buy the parts you actually need new - also keep in mind if you buy a used trans you may have labor $$$ in pulling it apart.

[BEEF]

Thanks Jason, I hate you sometimes :tongue:

I agree with this fully....

so jason, how much do you pay a shop to do the work with the trans out? I wonder what the full price of this would be? (parts and labor together). I may have to start tracking down an old xB trans.

[Jason@SportsCar]

I agree with this fully....

so jason, how much do you pay a shop to do the work with the trans out? I wonder what the full price of this would be? (parts and labor together). I may have to start tracking down an old xB trans.

Stated in post 12, $400 for the gear swap if I take them the trans and new gears.

If you plan on driving your car into a shop and dropping off the parts, I would expect you are paying for at least four extra hours of labor. $300-400.

But how can you guys go this far without also doing the LSD and Flywheel while you are in there? :evil:

[suckerface]

Yeah yeah...final drive swap leads to a new clutch, lightweight flywheel, LSD....THIS is why I hate you. You gave me the push over the edge on the final drive, which just causes a domino effect.

I'm aware it's not a direct bolt in, and my cost won't be too high. I have a friend who can get dealer prices on the parts, and is more than willing to help me do the gear swap for nothing more than the cost of beer. Might try to get a spare Yaris transmission, change the gears in that, then just do the full transmission swap. Won't be down as long that way.

[1.5]

RIGHT ^^

[ilikerice]

talking $2k alone in trans parts, not including labor. lol.. A mod I wish to do so much but I cannot with my application at this moment.

[1.5]

Would that put you in a new auto x class?

[suckerface]

Technically, yeah, it probably would, if it was specifically mentioned. A larger TB by itself is outside the specs of H stock. First year, however, most clubs would probably let majority of non-FI mods slide.

[xnamerxx]

The final drive and LSD move him into Street Prepared and messing with transmission gearing move him into Modified.


The TB also moves you into Street Prepared.

[Jason@SportsCar]

The final drive and LSD move him into Street Prepared and messing with transmission gearing move him into Modified.


The TB also moves you into Street Prepared.

Actually the final drive change is not legal in SP, you can only do that if it is an update/backdate item, and since the Scion xB is not on the same line in the rules you cant use parts from it.

A Yaris with a final drive change would be an SMF car.

[ilikerice]

^^more reason to turbo charge it.. RIGHT!