Anyone working on tuning??

[jdubau55]

Im wondering if out of all these vendors and what not, is anybody working on tuning? I mean, we have a DOHC 1.5L motor that only makes 106 hp? I mean come on the B16 makes 160 and its been around for over a decade. I really feel like there is some power that can be unlocked somewhere in the 1NZ.

[acrbill]

Im wondering if out of all these vendors and what not, is anybody working on tuning? I mean, we have a DOHC 1.5L motor that only makes 106 hp? I mean come on the B16 makes 160 and its been around for over a decade. I really feel like there is some power that can be unlocked somewhere in the 1NZ.

I'm sure the difference lies in the head port design. Even still, with 10.5:1 compression there has to be several HP hiding. I would like to see a premium fuel tune.

[Moose]

Our engine is just not made for power- it is made for fuel economy. You would have to change everything that bolts on, literally, as well as much of the internals (namely the head, cams, and valves) and the ECU. Might as well just do a swap.

I'll put it this way- there are 8 and 10 cylinder F1 engines out there smaller than the V6 in your grandmother's 1997 Chevy Malibu that make 4 times the power- just because the smaller F1 engine makes the power does not mean that it is feasible or even possible to do the same thing to Granny's Mali-boo. See where I am going with this? Certain engines are made from the ground up with one thing in mind, and every last detail is engineered to achieve that.

[largeorangefont]

I'm sure the difference lies in the head port design. Even still, with 10.5:1 compression there has to be several HP hiding. I would like to see a premium fuel tune.


Yea bumping up the timing and leaning it out a bit should gain 10-15% depending on mods.A good piggyback would be nice.

[Dragonacc]

Our engine is just not made for power- it is made for fuel economy. You would have to change everything that bolts on, literally, as well as much of the internals (namely the head, cams, and valves) and the ECU. Might as well just do a swap.

I'll put it this way- there are 8 and 10 cylinder F1 engines out there smaller than the V6 in your grandmother's 1997 Chevy Malibu that make 4 times the power- just because the smaller F1 engine makes the power does not mean that it is feasible or even possible to do the same thing to Granny's Mali-boo. See where I am going with this? Certain engines are made from the ground up with one thing in mind, and every last detail is engineered to achieve that.

+1

The 1nz-fe will never make the power a B16 will make. I mean, the 2zz-ge isn't even a real match for a B18 and it's Toyota's best 4 banger performance wise.

On the other hand, there's no doubt you can find a few more horsepower lurking inside the engine tune, but you'll have to use premium gas.

Personally, I'd stick with suspension mods, the car will never be fast in a straight line without a really significant investment.

[ChinoCharles]

Don't get offended by what I'm about to say if you disagree.

Saying there isn't any power potential in the 1NZ is bullshit. We have established this already. Someone is running around putting 180 to the ground in a Yaris on stock internals. Nobody will know how much the Yaris will or won't handle until ZPI's car blows up. PERIOD.

In the meantime, Ashley hit the nail on the head. If you want to see power our of your N/A Yaris (re: if you can't afford a turbo) you're going to want to start bolting on some less restrictive parts, then go out and give your car a good tune w/ a piggyback. From the graphs I'm looking at, 15-20% looks to be conservative. I think 115-120 on the ground from a Yaris with a relatively small investment is feasible, and a 20-25% increase in horsepower over stock isn't going to cut your engine life in half.

The power potential in this car lies in the restrictive intake/exhaust hardware and the gas-mileage-only stock tune.

[Dragonacc]

Saying there isn't any power potential in the 1NZ is bullshit. We have established this already. Someone is running around putting 180 to the ground in a Yaris on stock internals. Nobody will know how much the Yaris will or won't handle until ZPI's car blows up. PERIOD.


I understand what you are saying, but the return on your investment just isn't there with this car.

If you want a fast hatch buy a MS3, a $1000 piggyback yields 70whp on an otherwise stock car, that's a nice return.

You'll never get that kind of power out of the Yaris for the same money even considering the higher MSRP.

(No doubt a 180whp Yaris is probably a blast to drive though)

[ChinoCharles]

Can you buy an MS3 brand new for 13k? Didn't think so.

MS3 = 23k... give me 10 grand to spend on a Yaris and I'll put it on the front page.

[Dragonacc]

Can you buy an MS3 brand new for 13k? Didn't think so.

MS3 = 23k... give me 10 grand to spend on a Yaris and I'll put it on the front page.

Re-read my comment, I said even considering the higher msrp. Meaning, you can't build a Yaris for $23,000 that will put down 230whp and for another $1000 put down 300whp.

And even if you manage to do it, how long will the motor last? Even with a fully built (forged) motor you won't see 100,000 miles, and you won't see the same level of drivability.

EDIT: Don't forget upgraded front suspension, bigger wheels, brakes, independent rear suspension, LSD, you'll need all those things too.

[Black Yaris]

Re-read my comment, I said even considering the higher msrp. Meaning, you can't build a Yaris for $23,000k that will put down 230whp and for another $1000 put down 300whp.

And even if you manage to do it, how long will the motor last? Even with a fully build (forged) motor you won't see 100,000 miles, and you won't see the same level of drivability.

EDIT: Don't forget upgraded front suspension, bigger wheels, brakes, independent rear suspension, LSD, you'll need all those things too.

don't underestimate the power of the homegrown tuner... we have connections to get great hook ups on parts, we have the tools and know how to install them our selves... so.... I bet you I can take my $13k Yaris, drivetrain swap it myself and tune the motor in my fucking garage for $10k, yes I am considdering all the custom parts,mounts and what ever bullshit I would have to fab up, but geuss what, I work at a machine shop, my brother works at a machine shop, and my step dad works at a machine shop... I am sure between the 3 of us I can get what I need for a very limited cost (Beer & material)

[Dragonacc]

don't underestimate the power of the homegrown tuner... we have connections to get great hook ups on parts, we have the tools and know how to install them our selves... so.... I bet you I can take my $13k Yaris, drivetrain swap it myself and tune the motor in my fucking garage for $10k, yes I am considdering all the custom parts,mounts and what ever bullshit I would have to fab up, but geuss what, I work at a machine shop, my brother works at a machine shop, and my step dad works at a machine shop... I am sure between the 3 of us I can get what I need for a very limited cost (Beer & material)

You aren't an average example.

I just hate to see people throw large amounts of money into a platform that may ultimately be a disappointment.

Also, using the MS3 as an example again, you get to finance the cost of all the extra performance because it's built into the price of the car.

I'd hate to see someone's credit card bill if they bought a Yaris and tried to buy $10,000+ worth of parts to make it equal.

In the end I wouldn't criticize someone for spending that kind of money on their car, it's their money and their car, but if they asked my opinion before the fact I would sure as hell try and get them to reconsider.

(Using your example of an engine swap would cause problems with emissions for most people and could ruin the handling of the car depending on what they were swapping.)

[Nutzoids]

Part of it...For me anyway... Is the pride in knowing that it is something I DID!

Also...MODing my Yaris makes it Unique to my standards... and honestly... you can't put a price on that! Honestly...

There are people... who think like you Dragonacc... Just buy it and let someone else worry about fixing/building it... You have what I call the new generation of thinking... Why fix the toilet when I can call a plumber…

Plus Financing money SUX... MS3…23,000 sticker…after tax and tags and all the other dealer BS… you can’t get it for under 25,000!

My Yaris cost me $170 a month... with $2,000 Down… a MS3 with 2grand down will cost me $450 a month… do you know how much EXTRA money I have with such a low car payment... enough to do my own work on my dream car...

Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying your wrong, I'm also not saying I'm right... But web pages like this cater to and attract people who are just not satisfied with the norm...

And one day... When my Turbo Yaris pulls up next to a MS3 and I beat the living shit out of them...because my car weighs 1/2 of what there’s does... and I'm pushing 160hp/160lbs of torque... then we'll why the $20,000 total Yaris is better then that $25,000 total MS3!

Just my $0.02!

:evil:

[ChinoCharles]

Power, weight, none of it matters... well, it does, but bottom line is the track times. 2200 pounds gets down the line pretty f'n quick with a little bit to back it up.

Bottom line is nobody here should be waxing poetic about what the Yaris can or can't do unless you've spent some time in front of a dyno or out on a track with it. Anything less and you're just another wannabe blowing smoke without the real-world experience to back it up. I don't give a shit how many 350's you've swapped. This is FAR from a 350. A Yaris is a detuned motorcycle on four wheels next to a Chevelle.

And Nutzoids has the idea... us midwestern boys have an advantage not even those Los Angeles tuners have... lots of machine shops hungry for work.

IF YOU HAVE TO ASK... YOU JUST WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND...

[Moose]

The last part of this argument is making me laugh.

Sooner or later you guys will come to the same realization I came to in my Civic- you can put $10k into your Yaris and make it as fast as a WRX or whatever you aim for, but in the end, it's just a fast, $23,000 YARIS.

If you want a $23,000 fast car, buy a $23,000 fast car!

I'll still tinker with my Yaris, probably suspension and maybe some wheels, but I'll never try to transform this car into something it's not. For those of you that have the funds and patience (and may I suggest another daily driver) to do so, have at it- it's your car, not mine, and I won't flame you for doing so.

:cheers:

[Black Yaris]

The last part of this argument is making me laugh.

Sooner or later you guys will come to the same realization I came to in my Civic- you can put $10k into your Yaris and make it as fast as a WRX or whatever you aim for, but in the end, it's just a fast. $23,000 YARIS.

If you want a $23,000 fast car, buy a $23,000 fast car!

I'll still tinker with my Yaris, probably suspension and maybe some wheels, but I'll never try to transform this car into something it's not. For those of you that have the funds and patience (and may I suggest another daily driver) to do so, have at it- it's your car, not mine, and I won't flame you for doing so.

:cheers:

We are not out to make corvette killers, we just want a lil more power... and we know we can get it for a minimal amount of $$$

[acrbill]

It has already been proven that bolt ons and head porting are not much help. Some Scion guy tried all sorts of mods and only made a few HP for several thousand dollars outlay.

The head design is probably a limiting factor and the tune almost certainly is.
There is nothing you can do about the head design unless a head from another car would work.

A piggyback is probably not a good answer since most cannot control timing and change the rev limiter.

Lastly, saying the engine can handle x amount of HP since some guy with a turbo put it down does not mean the engine will survive an all out N/A build.
N/A motors (I'm talking about small 4 cyls.) need to spin to very high RPM's to make power. High RPM puts a lot of stress on internal parts.

[ChinoCharles]

A piggyback is probably not a good answer since most cannot control timing and change the rev limiter.

It is ambiguous, open-ended statements like this that make me slap my forehead. Probably... most... are you sure or are you just saying what you think and not what you know.

EDIT: OK, OK... that was kind of harsh, but do you see where I'm coming from? I know you know your shit Bill, but I'm not convinced you're speaking from experience on this car. If you do, please tell us what would go on the 1NZ first... that would solve a lot of problems!

And for the record, the goal is not to build this engine as N/A yet... I'm not sitting here saying that a 1NZ won't explode running 12:1 at 8500 RPM. I am saying it won't explode putting 120 to the ground as a daily driver, and I don't think it will from a 50 shot of nitrous done correctly, either. I'll let you guys know if I'm ever sure on the second part. :laugh:

[Moose]

It is ambiguous, open-ended statements like this that make me slap my forehead. Probably... most... are you sure or are you just saying what you think and not what you know.

I can say, with the most certainty, that even the best piggybacks are nothing without extensive internal modifications to back them up. There's only so much that you can do with a stock cam profile, head, injectors, and the like.

[ChinoCharles]

I can say, with the most certainty, that even the best piggybacks are nothing without extensive internal modifications to back them up. There's only so much that you can do with a stock cam profile, head, injectors, and the like.

Sure, point taken. VVTi complicates shit to a point where some of the stuff you just talked about would be a bitch to design for this car, and in turn if it ever does hit the market it will be priced so high I'll lose interest instantly.

Bottom line is I need to lean out. Period. The only way I'm going to do that is with a piggyback, a dyno and a good tuner... there are other ways, but none offer you the customization of a piggyback.

With an intake, exhaust, header, cat removal, pulley kit, sticky rubber, lighter wheels, and a piggyback how much power do you guys think a Yaris would make and where would it put it in straight line, quarter mile speed? I already have my prediction. I'm curious to see if everyone is on the same page.

I promise you the aforementioned setup would be a fucking BLAST to drive on a TRD suspension. :wink: Even better on coilovers. :wink: :wink:

By the way, everything I mentioned really isn't that expensive... especially if you're getting some (or most) of the parts at a discount. :burnrubber:

[jdubau55]

Hmm...interesting discussion we have here. Let me start off with 10g's is a helluva lot of cash. I agree 100% with Black Yaris, and he isnt a bad example. If you desire to tune your own car that can easily be done with the resources on hand today. The internet has opened all sorts of doors to a huge wealth of knowledge there for the taking. Anyone who can read and understand what they read has the power to build and tune their own super car. I could link you to about 10 websites of people who have built very fast cars on a budget. It might take a while but they got it done.

Another point is this. A fast car is fast not because of the car but because of the driver. A great driver in the same car as a good driver can easily shave seconds off a lap time.

Third, we are totally getting off topic here. We all know there is power in the 1NZ to be had. Where it lurks is the question.

We can discuss theoretical builds all day. That will just bring me to my second point about the driver.

[ChinoCharles]

The internet has opened all sorts of doors to a huge wealth of knowledge there for the taking.

It has also made every kid with a beat-up Civic in the driveway a self-tauted expert.

[joey1320]

does anybody have stock dyno charts for the Yaris?
what is the stock whp? 85-90whp?

if this is it, then a Yaris putting down 120-130 whp will definitley have to be a blast to drive. It's not going to be an EVO/STI killing machine but a fun car to drive as a Civic EG hatch with a b18/16 swap.

Just by looking at the intake/exhaust systems on our cars you can definitely see where the restrictions are. Free the flow of air. replace the pulleys with lighter parts and maybe even the flywheel and see what the car does before taking it to the piggyback system.

That's my plan!

[ChinoCharles]

I can tell you what it does! It falls on its fucking face! :laugh:

My car rifles to 5000 RPM as is... I am really pleased with the performance on the low end. Then it starts running silly rich and hits a wall.

From 4000-5000 RPM I'm grabbing around 15 HP at the wheels. From 5000-6200, nothing... she even loses a bit towards the end. This is why I say it hits a wall... and that wall happens to coincide with a rapid drop of about .6 in AFR.

This engine seems to happily plot along at 11.5 AFR @ WOT. The 10.75 it throws me at 5800 RPM is where she stops running and starts power-walking.

[jdubau55]

Seems like the ECU goes crazy. This however coincides perfectly with what my butt dyno tells me. I feel like between about 2500-5000 rpm it pulls good, after that I feel like its struggling.


Notice I said read and UNDERSTAND what they've read. Kids with Civics dont do that. However us kids that had Accords know whats up.

[Nutzoids]

My car rifles to 5000 RPM as is... I am really pleased with the performance on the low end. Then it starts running silly rich and hits a wall.

What if we Retard the Timing? Will that open up the top end?

:evil:

[joey1320]

then some kind of management will definitley help at the top end. if you can keep the AFR at 12.1 after the 5k rpm's you should see an increase in power.

and that is a very conservative/safe ratio. so your engine should not have any issues with wear.

[ChinoCharles]

I failed to mention this, but I'll be back at Twisted Innovations this Saturday and Sunday for that new exhaust. If anyone would like an exhaust for an unheard of price and can drive to northeast Ohio this Sunday, PM me. If you want to dyno your car, PM me... 45 bucks for 3 runs. You'll leave chart-in-hand. You can come see what I'm talking about. Joe will be there too... it would be great if we could get a bunch of Yarii in there. May convince them to make some shit happen for us... rear disc conversion comes to mind!

I'm talking around $250 for an exhaust that replaces the midpipe and axle-back w/ 2.25" tubing. Resonator, tips, defoulers... thats it. Talk about flow. I could even see if we can hook up a free dyno with purchase of an exhaust. If you let me know by Saturday I could tell them to make multiples.

[acrbill]

It is ambiguous, open-ended statements like this that make me slap my forehead. Probably... most... are you sure or are you just saying what you think and not what you know.

EDIT: OK, OK... that was kind of harsh, but do you see where I'm coming from? I know you know your shit Bill, but I'm not convinced you're speaking from experience on this car. If you do, please tell us what would go on the 1NZ first... that would solve a lot of problems!



How was my statement ambiguous or open ended? Have you ever worked with a piggy back? By design they work hand in hand with the stock ecu. If the stock ecu fights back then what good is it?

The timing I was referring to was not cam timing either. Ever wonder how a 10.5:1 motor could run on 87? The ecu obviously has a super conservative timing map. Timing is the key to making power.

The first thing I would try is to monitor timing with a gauge and see how higher octane fuel effects it. It might very well advance the curve a noticeable amount.

Running a wide band o2 sensor to see if there is any room to pull fuel and lean out the mix could also offer small gains and probably more MPG.

Ever wonder why I seem to be a downer whenever people post about making bolt on power?

I was part of the Dodge Neon crowd for several years and even though the Neons potential is far greater then the Yaris most people ended up very disillusioned after spending several thousands of dollars building all motor cars.

Its sort of like when your parents try and help you avoid making the same mistakes they did. Some people say that you have to let people make their own mistakes. I can't help it though. I hate to see people strive for the impossible.

The Yaris is what it is. Strap a supercharger on it and call it a day. You will feel a lot better about bolt on mods once you need the added airflow.

You can take this thread to 50 pages or until your fingertips are numb, you can even call me a know it all prick but that will not change the fact that you stand to lose a lot of money and time trying to extract a few HP.

You want to have fun with your Yaris? Buy a set of R-compound tires and head to your local auto-x.

[Dragonacc]

The last part of this argument is making me laugh.

Sooner or later you guys will come to the same realization I came to in my Civic- you can put $10k into your Yaris and make it as fast as a WRX or whatever you aim for, but in the end, it's just a fast, $23,000 YARIS.

If you want a $23,000 fast car, buy a $23,000 fast car!

I'll still tinker with my Yaris, probably suspension and maybe some wheels, but I'll never try to transform this car into something it's not. For those of you that have the funds and patience (and may I suggest another daily driver) to do so, have at it- it's your car, not mine, and I won't flame you for doing so.

:cheers:

I agree.

I modded my SE-R spec V to 180whp, and it was pretty quick. Did all the bolt-ons available. Even thought about turbocharging it, but the more I beat on the car the more things kept breaking and I quickly figured out dumping any more money into that car would be a waste.

I drove a 94 Miata for a while, dyno'ed right around 98whp, best car ever. Why? It handled like a dream and was kinda quick because it was light weight. That car taught me a lesson - Use a car for what it was built for...

And that's what I'm going to do with my Yaris, I'll leave the engine alone, but I'll tweak the suspension, because the car already handles pretty well, a highway monster it's not, but a canyon carver...that's possible.

[acrbill]

I agree.

And that's what I'm going to do with my Yaris, I'll leave the engine alone, but I'll tweak the suspension, because the car already handles pretty well, a highway monster it's not, but a canyon carver...that's possible.

Quoted for truth.

[ChinoCharles]

OK, wait a second... back up.

The title of this thread is "Anyone working on tuning" and you guys are arguing that nobody should bother?

I don't think that is necessarily approprate for a thread like this in the PERFORMANCE section.

Take your disillusioned asses to the suspension forum. You guys can provide helpful information when your experience isn't getting in the way. Forget about convincing people... either help or go away.

And do you guys forget I have dyno access? What do I need sensors for? Am I tuning on the go yet? Laptop in the car?

[neohalo]

OK, wait a second... back up.

The title of this thread is "Anyone working on tuning" and you guys are arguing that nobody should bother?

I don't think that is necessarily approprate for a thread like this in the PERFORMANCE section.

Take your disillusioned asses to the suspension forum. You guys can provide helpful information when your experience isn't getting in the way. Forget about convincing people... either help or go away.
lol if that doesnt shut up those two bill and dragon, i dont know what will lol

[acrbill]

I think I offered up some good ideas. Wideband tuning and datalogging timing are excellent ways to tune. A wideband setup is far cheaper than hitting the dyno every time you add a mod. Plus you and a few pals can go in on one together and you can all use it to tune in your combos. Plus it would really come in handy when you start using nitrous.

Like I said before, being able to change the timing curve will offer nice gains. What you need is to either find someone who can crack the stock ecu (if its even possible) or run some sort of EMS.

What are your goals for the car anyway?

I agree that my auto-x comment was kind of shitty and out of place.

[Moose]

OK, wait a second... back up.

The title of this thread is "Anyone working on tuning" and you guys are arguing that nobody should bother?

I don't think that is necessarily approprate for a thread like this in the PERFORMANCE section.

Take your disillusioned asses to the suspension forum. You guys can provide helpful information when your experience isn't getting in the way. Forget about convincing people... either help or go away.

And do you guys forget I have dyno access? What do I need sensors for? Am I tuning on the go yet? Laptop in the car?

Listen, someone had to had to say it or you would have a bunch of disillusioned teenagers running around thinking their Yaris is a damned race car.

And don't tell me to leave just because you're upset that someone is challenging your point of view- it's a discussion forum- get over yourself!

Am I saying you won't get any power out of the Yaris?
No.

Am I saying you shouldn't even try?
No.

Am I saying that you are stupid for trying?
No.

Am I using my experience as a FACTORY TECHNICIAN FOR TOYOTA/LEXUS to try and keep people's expectations realistic?
Yes.

I have been conducting myself as gentlemanly as possible in here, and you have crossed the line into immaturity because of your assumptions as to what other people think and know.

Now that I've got that off of my chest, I suugest that we simply agree to disagree and move on like adults.

[largeorangefont]

Some of the above comments are kind of off base. Aside from turbo kits, superchargers, and nitrous, a Yaris with basic boltons will probably gain 10-15 HP MAX from a tune on top of what the boltons added (or took away). With a safe tune the car will be fine, and you aren't going to be breaking anything...ever. The car can handle 30 more HP with no problem. If you are throwing a power adder into the mix, all bets are off and you are and idiot if you DON'T have a method of tunign the car for the mods.

That said..

I'm not sure what is available for the Yaris, but if there was a reflash or a handheld tuner available for around $500 I'm sure quite a few would sell.

Piggybacks are still very effective, but lately have been going by the wayside because factory ECUs are much more powerful if there is a method to unlock them. I do Subaru tuning on the side and there has been free software out for the last year and a half. You can basically tune the car for almost any level of mods on the factory ECU. Obviously, there is more risk involved with this method, and you have to know what you are doing, but is accomplishes the same thing as a reflash.

I doubt the Yaris will ever see that level because the ownerbase is smaller and there is less demand, but something simple to adjust timing and AFR would suffice.

Ashley

[Moose]

If there were a socketed, Windows-based ECU tuning program for Toyota, like a Crome or Uberdata, it would be much easier. The un-availability of such things is what makes this difficult.

The reason I'm not a big fan of piggybacks is what largeorangefont mentioned- the security measures in the newer (OBD2B and newer) ECUs. Even on Hondas, who have all of the aftermarket support imaginable, one wrong move with a VAFC or SAFC will cause multiple DTCs. Crankshaft position sensor codes, throttle position codes, hell, even immobilizer codes! Imagine not being able to start your car until you have zeroed and removed your SAFC- I've been there, and it SUCKS.

Going to a socketed program was actually, not counting dyno time, cheaper and easier, and virtually trouble free.

[largeorangefont]

I can say, with the most certainty, that even the best piggybacks are nothing without extensive internal modifications to back them up. There's only so much that you can do with a stock cam profile, head, injectors, and the like.

That is not really valid. You don't need upgraded internals to enjoy better driveability, more torque and better top end.

Of course the more mods you do to the car, the more you will squeeze out with proper tuning. But saying with "certainty" that a piggyback is useless unless you have heavy modificatons simply isnt true. If a piggyback is the only option we have, then that is what we have to deal with. Obviously some are better than others, but there are some very good products out there.

Ashley

[Dragonacc]

lol if that doesnt shut up those two bill and dragon, i dont know what will lol

I was sharing what I felt would possibly benefit others. Like I said earlier though, your money your car, I'm just offering some friendly advice based on my past experience with cars.

I wasn't calling anyone names or making fun of anyone either, lets keep it real folks.

[largeorangefont]

If there were a socketed, Windows-based ECU tuning program for Toyota, like a Crome or Uberdata, it would be much easier. The un-availability of such things is what makes this difficult.

The reason I'm not a big fan of piggybacks is what largeorangefont mentioned- the security measures in the newer (OBD2B and newer) ECUs. Even on Hondas, who have all of the aftermarket support imaginable, one wrong move with a VAFC or SAFC will cause multiple DTCs. Crankshaft position sensor codes, throttle position codes, hell, even immobilizer codes! Imagine not being able to start your car until you have zeroed and removed your SAFC- I've been there, and it SUCKS.

Going to a socketed program was actually, not counting dyno time, cheaper and easier, and virtually trouble free.

I agree. I like the reflash route alot more, But if an Emanage (or whatever) is the only option we have, then that is fine. There are ways to disable the codes should they come up. It's just a pain tracking down the solutions. I don't really forsee any issues though. All we need is simple timing and fueling adjustments. For that there should be no CELs involved unless you go catless. Catalyst inefficiency are very simple to fix however.

Ashley

[Dragonacc]

That not really valid. You don't need upgraded internals to enjoy better driveability, more torque and better top end.

Of course the more mods you do to the car, the more you will squeeze out with proper tuning. But saying with "certainty" that a piggyback is useless unless you have heavy modificatons simply isnt true.

Ashley

I think the biggest problem with piggybacks now is that a lot of new cars have "learning" ECUs. Your tune ends up getting messed up and it becomes an endless headache.

I didn't mean to imply you couldn't make any gains with bolt-ons with this car, just that the gains you will get aren't worth it IMO.

[largeorangefont]

I think the biggest problem with piggybacks now is that a lot of new cars have "learning" ECUs. Your tune ends up getting messed up and it becomes an endless headache.

I didn't mean to imply you couldn't make any gains with bolt-ons with this car, just that the gains you will get aren't worth it IMO.

All told you are gonna spend around $1000 - $1250 for intake, exhaust, header, highflow cat midpipe, pulley, and some method of tuning and get ~30 WHP. Is that worth it? That not a question to you directly, but to everyone as a whole. To some people it will, to others it won't.

There is something to be said for driving a well tuned car at ANY horsepower level. It just is more fun to drive, and when you get on it, it goes. You ask yourself why didn't the damn thing COME this way?

Some piggybacks are better than others at dealing with "learning" ECUs but that is a very valid point.

[Moose]

That is not really valid. You don't need upgraded internals to enjoy better driveability, more torque and better top end.

Of course the more mods you do to the car, the more you will squeeze out with proper tuning. But saying with "certainty" that a piggyback is useless unless you have heavy modificatons simply isnt true. If a piggyback is the only option we have, then that is what we have to deal with. Obviously some are better than others, but there are some very good products out there.

Ashley

I guess I should put it into perspective- when adding an ECU tuning program or piggyback programmer, I'm not doing it for the reasons you listed- I'm going for big power. I can't say that I've seen any significant gains (10 or more hp or tq) with a piggyback and just I/H/E. Cams and adjustable gears are, IMHO, the very least to get anything bigger out of a piggyback.

[largeorangefont]

I guess I should put it into perspective- when adding an ECU tuning program or piggyback programmer, I'm not doing it for the reasons you listed- I'm going for big power. I can't say that I've seen any significant gains (10 or more hp or tq) with a piggyback and just I/H/E. Cams and adjustable gears are, IMHO, the very least to get anything bigger out of a piggyback.

Gotcha. I knew that is where you were going, however there are some people on here that are less informed that may not have the same perspective.

Weather its piggyback or a reflash, it is all just means to an end and picking the product that will work the best for your application.

Ashley

[acrbill]

All told you are gonna spend around $1000 - $1250 for intake, exhaust, header, highflow cat midpipe, pulley, and some method of tuning and get ~30 WHP. Is that worth it? That not a question to you directly, but to everyone as a whole. To some people it will, to others it won't.

There is something to be said for driving a well tuned car at ANY horsepower level. It just is more fun to drive, and when you get on it, it goes. You ask yourself why didn't the damn thing COME this way?

Some piggybacks are better than others at dealing with "learning" ECUs but that is a very valid point.

I'm sure anyone in their right mind would take a 30% gain in WHP for $1,200. The problems is that 30whp is far fetched on a car that puts down less than 90 to the wheels.

Now I will go on the assumption that you threw out an arbitrary number.
If you could guarantee that you would see appreciable gains from headers,intakes and pulleys it might be worthwhile.

Here are the problems.

Header- The stocker is already a decent looking tubular piece and the aftermarket options look identical in design so I cannot imagine much if any gains in HP.

Cat-Your not going to gain anything here since all stock cats flow well.

Pulley- The ones I have seen are the same diameter as stock. The only difference is weight.

Exhaust pipe size probably isn't restrictive at near stock power levels.

[Dragonacc]

All told you are gonna spend around $1000 - $1250 for intake, exhaust, header, highflow cat midpipe, pulley, and some method of tuning and get ~30 WHP. Is that worth it? That not a question to you directly, but to everyone as a whole. To some people it will, to others it won't.

There is something to be said for driving a well tuned car at ANY horsepower level. It just is more fun to drive, and when you get on it, it goes. You ask yourself why didn't the damn thing COME this way?

Some piggybacks are better than others at dealing with "learning" ECUs but that is a very valid point.

Depends on the brands you choose too. The TRD header alone uses most of that budget. You can definitely get all the parts on the list with that budget, but I'm not sure if it'll be 30whp. Guess we'll see when people start modding them to that point.

One other thing for people to remember is the possible loss of low end power. Opening up the intake and exhaust fully could really hurt the area under the curve. Again, gotta wait until people start doing the mods.

[acrbill]

ChinoCharles, Did you ever get a chance to re-dyno that header you put on?

[Dragonacc]

ChinoCharles, Did you ever get a chance to re-dyno that header you put on?

I'd be interested to hear the results as well.

[largeorangefont]

I'm sure anyone in their right mind would take a 30% gain in WHP for $1,200. The problems is that 30whp is far fetched on a car that puts down less than 90 to the wheels.

Now I will go on the assumption that you threw out an arbitrary number.
If you could guarantee that you would see appreciable gains from headers,intakes and pulleys it might be worthwhile.

Here are the problems.

Header- The stocker is already a decent looking tubular piece and the aftermarket options look identical in design so I cannot imagine much if any gains in HP.

Cat-Your not going to gain anything here since all stock cats flow well.

Pulley- The ones I have seen are the same diameter as stock. The only difference is weight.

Exhaust pipe size probably isn't restrictive at near stock power levels.

The gains from all of that will be between 20-30 HP. Im sure there will be 10+ from the tune alone. The timing is low so the car can run on 87. Tuning it for 91 will be the bulk of the gain. There is probably another 10 between intake and axleback. A good 4-2-1 header and midpipe will make up the balance, probably another 5-10 there.

The net gain may end up being closer to 20 WHP when all is said and done, but 20-30 is a good estimate. It is tuning that is what will make the other parts really work well. Just slapping everything on will see a 10-15 Hp gain, vs tuning for all the addtional parts.

I agree that the stock manifold is decent. I don't think the Megan piece will be the best alternative as time goes on. I'm not spending any $$ for anything that isn't 4-2-1 and\or has longer primaries, so I'm staying stock for now.

A good high flow cat will gain a bit more power vs the 2 stock cats. It a simple way to gain a couple HP. OEM cats don't flow as well and are in the worst possible place. Make no mistake, I'm not saying increase exhaust pipe diameter, just add in a good cat and straight through muffler and you will see gains. It is easier to fab up an entire new header back system than cut and paste in the new components.

Lighter pulleys will free up horsepower even if they are the same diameter as stock. it is just liek running lighter wheels. Any savings in rotating weight is huge.

Ashley

[largeorangefont]

Depends on the brands you choose too. The TRD header alone uses most of that budget. You can definitely get all the parts on the list with that budget, but I'm not sure if it'll be 30whp. Guess we'll see when people start modding them to that point.

One other thing for people to remember is the possible loss of low end power. Opening up the intake and exhaust fully could really hurt the area under the curve. Again, gotta wait until people start doing the mods.

I gave an estimate above, and all the basic stuff should be between 20-30 AFTER tuning. I could end up being wrong, but I believe tuning the car for 91 (or higher) will add the bulk of that gain.

As far as exhaust goes, unless you are putting on a power adder, you shouldn't be going any bigger than 2.25 inches for tubing diameter. Anything bigger than that an you will definately be sacraficing bottom end.

[ChinoCharles]

Wow, this thread is on :evil:

Did I re-dyno the header... yes. It also happened to have a pulley and an intake on there, but I did it! With a stock exhaust bolted to the Megan intake, you lose power down low to make power at the top end. I am reserving judgement on it until I have the rest of the exhaust.

Ashleys estimates and comments are spot on with both what I see on the graphs and what I'm being told by my dyno tech.

And Moose, don't take it personally. I get frustrated with the naysaying but I respect your opinion. I know you've done this before.

[Skylineee]

Guys i need your advice! I don't have lots of cash to buy big cars wich i preffer the most (Supra,Skyline,Impreza WRX sti) and i got the idea of buying a small car and slowly upgrade it. I was thinking to start with a cheap Yaris. But from what i read here it's a pain in the butt ..tuning it ..and not lots of HP.Is its really that hard to upgrade it?Don't have much of a budget here..or should i go for a Fiat Punto.Any advice is welcomed... thanx

[Loren]

Advice: Start a new topic instead of dredging up one that's over 3 years old.

[cali yaris]

Why start a new one? Read through it, it's completely relevant to a current discussion.

[Loren]

Partially relevant, yes. But personal advice on "what car should I buy" is very different from "what kind of development is being done on the Yaris".

[cali yaris]

Buy a Yaris. Or something else.

how'd I do?

[Tamago]

Don't get offended by what I'm about to say if you disagree.

Saying there isn't any power potential in the 1NZ is bullshit. We have established this already. Someone is running around putting 180 to the ground in a Yaris on stock internals. Nobody will know how much the Yaris will or won't handle until ZPI's car blows up. PERIOD.

In the meantime, Ashley hit the nail on the head. If you want to see power our of your N/A Yaris (re: if you can't afford a turbo) you're going to want to start bolting on some less restrictive parts, then go out and give your car a good tune w/ a piggyback. From the graphs I'm looking at, 15-20% looks to be conservative. I think 115-120 on the ground from a Yaris with a relatively small investment is feasible, and a 20-25% increase in horsepower over stock isn't going to cut your engine life in half.

The power potential in this car lies in the restrictive intake/exhaust hardware and the gas-mileage-only stock tune.


anyone stop to think how the B16 gets 160hp? RPM's. rev that 1nz to 8500rpm and you'll make more power without doing a single mod, because power is just a function of torque and rpm.

(i am in no way suggesting that you should try 8500rpm on stock engine'd yaris, just putting the "power" thing in perspective)

also, remember the 1nz has an offset crank, very thin rods, and soft valve springs. all of these things lead up to catastrophic engine failure at high rpm's.

so, the money spent (wasted) to build a high-rpm NA 1nzfe should be better used either swapping or going forced induction. or hell, nitrous.

[severous01]

so, has anyone come up with an answer to the OP's question yet?

does anyone have a chip tuner or programmer out there yet? i'd invest 300 in a programmer well before i ported heads, turbo'd, 'charged, or any other power adder simply for the fact that i wanna run premium, and i wanna stay NA. so, tuning gets 25% for most cars, and 125 is a good amount of power for the size, weight, and stock brakes size of the car.

any way...back to the OP's topic and not wishful thinking or bickering about who's dong is bigger or what's gonna happen if you do a tune/program...i wanna know if there's a programmer out or coming out.

[cfeng]

i found this http://www.powerenterpriseusa.net/products/electric/camcon/camcon.htm

[evoxgsr]

I can't believe Paul from Dezod hasn't posted his achievement from yesterday yet. He has what all of you are looking for...