Does your liftback have ABS?

[BensVitz]

I'm looking at ordering the Yaris 5sp liftback soon, but can't decide if I want the ABS option. How many Liftback owners opted for ABS? The dealer I spoke with stated that they don't have ANY liftbacks on their way with ABS and that in this area, I would have to special order one.

Thanx,
Ben

[Idjiit]

Not on mine, not really interested in it.

[ricko]

Personally I think that EVERY car should have ABS. The technology has been improved to the point, that with the possible exception of ideal race conditions, it is the fastest and safest way to stop a car for all but the VERY best drivers.

[Sp33dY]

Every single Yaris sold in Australia will have ABS STANDARD.

[Macel]

I don't believe that ABS is going to be a standard package option on the liftback in America. Check toyota.com and build a yaris hatchback, it doesn't let you add the power package, which is the only package which includes ABS. You probably have to special order it.

[ricko]

ABS isn't standard and probably won't be in the near future. I just think it should be. N.A. seems more in crash survival than crash avoidance.

[Idjiit]

I don't believe that ABS is going to be a standard package option on the liftback in America. Check toyota.com and build a yaris hatchback, it doesn't let you add the power package, which is the only package which includes ABS. You probably have to special order it.

The Power Package for the Liftback is available, but it doesn't include ABS. According to the website, only the sedan PP includes ABS.

[60 Somethings]

We were lucky enough to latch onto a pretty much fully-loaded, stick-shift model.

The sticker on our Liftback lists ABS separately, with it's own code (AB), @ $300.

[why?]

On a car as light as the Yaris I really don't think it is worth it.

If I want to steer I'm not going to be hitting the brakes.

It is just another nanny device for people that shouldn't have drivers licenses.

[corey415]

Toyota should make ABS standard in my opinion.

[60 Somethings]

IMO there are two different ways of braking: ABS is hit it hard and hold it - hopefully ABS keeps the car straight - great when you have to stop quickly in a straight line due to cars on either side. Then there is 'sliding' the car while braking (non-ABS) - you stab the pedal, but modulate the pressure so YOU to control the car's steering.

Before ABS there was no choice. I've gotten used to making a quick decision on it, but still have rarely needed to use the ABS over the last 10 yrs or so that I have had it on my cars.

My age may have something to do with my view on the subject. (I am also the orginal owner of a '74 ALFA Romeo Spider.)

Lou (Age 63 - probably not the typical Yaris owner)

[riceboy]

I got it, I'm indifferent about it, but it was standard in the RS pkg

[Macel]

On a car as light as the Yaris I really don't think it is worth it.

If I want to steer I'm not going to be hitting the brakes.

It is just another nanny device for people that shouldn't have drivers licenses.


Drive on some icy new england back roads in the middle of a winter storm and you might change your tune about it. There aren't very many (if any) people out there who are capable of stopping anywhere near as quickly as the computer can stop a car with ABS.

[SmellyTofu]

On a car as light as the Yaris I really don't think it is worth it.

If I want to steer I'm not going to be hitting the brakes.

It is just another nanny device for people that shouldn't have drivers licenses.

Tell that to the person that pulled out in front of me without indicating and me avoiding this person with brakes and steering input at the same time. Had it not been for that, I'd slam right into the driver's side door and given him one serious taste of what a Yaris headlight taste like.

If you think ABS is not needed, I'd like you to stop quicker than a car with ABS on ice whilst turning.

[hoahmaru]

ABS all the way!!!

[why?]

Drive on some icy new england back roads in the middle of a winter storm and you might change your tune about it. There aren't very many (if any) people out there who are capable of stopping anywhere near as quickly as the computer can stop a car with ABS.

Been there, done that. Not a problem.

I live on Cape Cod. Drove a Saab 9000 without ABS for around 5 years. Never really had a problem that ABS would have fixed.

On my current Saab that has ABS, The ABS has activated only 1 time, and that was when I was driving in a straight line and they didn't really do anything. Had a Ford Taurus SHO with ABS that never activated at all.

Its a personal preference, but I just don't see the need for it.

[foober]

As a life time montanan I've driven on alot of icy snowy roads. And there is only one way to drive on them. Slowly. Every year we get some city folk from down south that just moved up here in their fancy abs super deluxe 4 wheel drive suv's who drive too fast and wind up killing themselves. YOu can have all the technical inovations loaded on but if your going too fast your gonna be in trouble.

[why?]

Bingo. Driving safely negates the need for electronic nanny's.

[Andrew Chalmers]

Bingo. Driving safely negates the need for electronic nanny's.

I guess my question has always been - being a safe driver and all... can you anticipate the actions of idiots out on the road?

[foober]

I guess my question has always been - being a safe driver and all... can you anticipate the actions of idiots out on the road?

that is a good question. The answer is you have to be wary of others around you. Full concentration. My old girl friend was always doing this or that in her car. And even on good roads she constantly got into accidents. I myself have always driven defensively knowing that there are idiots all around me. And haven't had an accident to date. 35 years of drivng. Knock on wood. Being careful is the most important thing by far if you ask me. Abs probably does help some. But not nearly as much as being careful.

But, since I've had my little yaris now for two weeks I've almost got into accidents from some really very bad driving habits by other motorists. I haven't had any real problems with other drivers for many years drivng my 98 toyota and 93 nissan pick up trucks. But now having the yaris i've had to use some good driving to stay out of accidents. I'm thinking of getting a flag or something for the car just so folks know I'm there. Or stickers that say I'm "nra" and or "marine corps vet" or this car insured by "smith and wesson."

[SmellyTofu]

I guess my question has always been - being a safe driver and all... can you anticipate the actions of idiots out on the road?

Let's not even talk about other drivers.. what about those that don't know the road rules like kids that might run out on the road chasing a ball that's rolled across the road or wildlife that jumps out in front of you without warning whilst you're barrelling down at highway speed?

I got a feeling that why? isn't use ABS properly or isn't close enough to have an accident for ABS not to kick in. You don't modulate your braking with ABS.. you jab the brakes hard and leave it there and that way you will minimise braking distance. Lifting off any amount will increase the distance. If you need to lift off or brake not to a point of ABS activating, then it really isn't that much of an emergency situation.

Sure people can go on for months or years without the ABS kicking in.. does that mean you don't need it? I don't smoke, but does that mean I don't need a cigarette lighter? Also added with ABS is brake assist.. an overlooked item.

[BensVitz]

Thanx guys. I honestly thought the poll results would be the other way around. Afterall, like I said, the sales guy told me that the only way to get ABS was to special order it. Seems like a safe $300.00 option. I'm in no hurry. Maybe I'll order it. I just don't need the $1200 power package for such a small car. Thanx

Ben

[why?]

I guess my question has always been - being a safe driver and all... can you anticipate the actions of idiots out on the road?

Yes you can. Assume everyone else is a complete moron. Believe that someone will do something stupid and you will need to avoid the dope.

Leave 1 family sized car length in front of you for every 10 mph you are going.

If someone starts tailgating you, slow down.

If you do not feel 100% in control, slow down.

Basically, the more space between you and any other car on the road, the more time you have to avoid people who shouldn't have licenses.

There is no such thing as going too slow. If you feel you are going too slow and someone is behind you, there is nothing wrong with pulling over. Better off him dead then you.

The Yaris has pretty good brakes, plus it is a light car.

The most important thing is to notice everything. Make sure you know where every other moving object is. If you can't keep track of them all, slow down.

Never assume anything. If someone waves you to go, make sure the dimwit isn't ignoring a car coming full steam ahead the other way. I saw that happen once, I was amazed there was no injuries.

The basic message is to slow down. It is better to arrive somewhere late then to not arrive their at all. Or arrive their with a damaged or destroyed car.


Let's not even talk about other drivers.. what about those that don't know the road rules like kids that might run out on the road chasing a ball that's rolled across the road or wildlife that jumps out in front of you without warning whilst you're barrelling down at highway speed?

I got a feeling that why? isn't use ABS properly or isn't close enough to have an accident for ABS not to kick in. You don't modulate your braking with ABS.. you jab the brakes hard and leave it there and that way you will minimise braking distance. Lifting off any amount will increase the distance. If you need to lift off or brake not to a point of ABS activating, then it really isn't that much of an emergency situation.

Sure people can go on for months or years without the ABS kicking in.. does that mean you don't need it? I don't smoke, but does that mean I don't need a cigarette lighter? Also added with ABS is brake assist.. an overlooked item.


Please don't insult my intelligence.

No kid is going to run out in front of you on the highway. If you are going highway speed in a neighborhood you deserve to die.

As for wildlife, you should know the area you are driving, and look for them. If you are going highway speed then there should be plenty of room off each side of the highway to see any animals that might come on the road, otherwise, you should slow down.

ABS isn't needed if you know how to drive.

I don't smoke and I don't carry a cigarette lighter.

And in the USA & Canada ABS comes with EBD, or electronic brake force distribution. That takes the brake force you apply and decides which wheels to give the breaking power. Brake Assist is only uselful in a panic stop, and it adds to the power of the brake force applied. It is not available in the USA or Canada for the Yaris.

EBD is just another nanny that isn't really needed since 80-90% of the braking force is always on the front wheels, and rear wheel drum brakes aren't going to do much of anything no matter what.

[SmellyTofu]

Said the spelling master.

[Macel]

Yes you can. Assume everyone else is a complete moron. Believe that someone will do something stupid and you will need to avoid the dope.

Leave 1 family sized car length in front of you for every 10 mph you are going.

If someone starts tailgating you, slow down.

If you do not feel 100% in control, slow down.

Basically, the more space between you and any other car on the road, the more time you have to avoid people who shouldn't have licenses.

There is no such thing as going too slow. If you feel you are going too slow and someone is behind you, there is nothing wrong with pulling over. Better off him dead then you.

The Yaris has pretty good brakes, plus it is a light car.

The most important thing is to notice everything. Make sure you know where every other moving object is. If you can't keep track of them all, slow down.

Never assume anything. If someone waves you to go, make sure the dimwit isn't ignoring a car coming full steam ahead the other way. I saw that happen once, I was amazed there was no injuries.

The basic message is to slow down. It is better to arrive somewhere late then to not arrive their at all. Or arrive their with a damaged or destroyed car.





Please don't insult my intelligence.

No kid is going to run out in front of you on the highway. If you are going highway speed in a neighborhood you deserve to die.

As for wildlife, you should know the area you are driving, and look for them. If you are going highway speed then there should be plenty of room off each side of the highway to see any animals that might come on the road, otherwise, you should slow down.

ABS isn't needed if you know how to drive.

I don't smoke and I don't carry a cigarette lighter.

And in the USA & Canada ABS comes with EBD, or electronic brake force distribution. That takes the brake force you apply and decides which wheels to give the breaking power. Brake Assist is only uselful in a panic stop, and it adds to the power of the brake force applied. It is not available in the USA or Canada for the Yaris.

EBD is just another nanny that isn't really needed since 80-90% of the braking force is always on the front wheels, and rear wheel drum brakes aren't going to do much of anything no matter what.


You obviously still have a lot to learn. Being careful WILL protect you from most accidents, but there's always the possibility of something unexpected happening. I think the fact that you are so confident in your driving abilities shows that you may not be as careful a driver as you claim to be.

[mygrnthmb]

Yes you can. Assume everyone else is a complete moron. Believe that someone will do something stupid and you will need to avoid the dope.

Leave 1 family sized car length in front of you for every 10 mph you are going.

If someone starts tailgating you, slow down.

If you do not feel 100% in control, slow down.

Basically, the more space between you and any other car on the road, the more time you have to avoid people who shouldn't have licenses.

There is no such thing as going too slow. If you feel you are going too slow and someone is behind you, there is nothing wrong with pulling over. Better off him dead then you.

The Yaris has pretty good brakes, plus it is a light car.

The most important thing is to notice everything. Make sure you know where every other moving object is. If you can't keep track of them all, slow down.

Never assume anything. If someone waves you to go, make sure the dimwit isn't ignoring a car coming full steam ahead the other way. I saw that happen once, I was amazed there was no injuries.

The basic message is to slow down. It is better to arrive somewhere late then to not arrive their at all. Or arrive their with a damaged or destroyed car.





Please don't insult my intelligence.

No kid is going to run out in front of you on the highway. If you are going highway speed in a neighborhood you deserve to die.

As for wildlife, you should know the area you are driving, and look for them. If you are going highway speed then there should be plenty of room off each side of the highway to see any animals that might come on the road, otherwise, you should slow down.

ABS isn't needed if you know how to drive.

I don't smoke and I don't carry a cigarette lighter.

And in the USA & Canada ABS comes with EBD, or electronic brake force distribution. That takes the brake force you apply and decides which wheels to give the breaking power. Brake Assist is only uselful in a panic stop, and it adds to the power of the brake force applied. It is not available in the USA or Canada for the Yaris.

EBD is just another nanny that isn't really needed since 80-90% of the braking force is always on the front wheels, and rear wheel drum brakes aren't going to do much of anything no matter what.


Man I tell ya .... I get so tired of your condecending tripe. I'd like to say I'll just ignore your comments, but you obviously seem compelled to show your huge intelligence on every single subject. I'm from the U.S. and I just want everyone to know I'm embarassed by you and your attitude. It's no wonder other countires think of us as greedy know-it-alls. For the record, WE ALL KNOW YOU DRIVE A FRIGGIN SAAB !!!

[stuffy]

It is just another nanny device for people that shouldn't have drivers licenses.


my yaris is the first car i have ever owned with abs, and i couldn't believe how incredible it was in winter driving,
i think the danger with abs is that people get used to driving with it, then if they are ever in a situation where they are driving a car without it, they might get in trouble if they try to brake hard and steer on icy surfaces,

abs kind of gets you doing the opposite of what you should do,

but damn, it works real good!

[ricko]

Trust me "mygrnthmb", Canadians know enough about our neighbours not to paint you all with the same brush.

[Andrew Chalmers]

After reading the responses to my rhetorical question...

I have to say - people who have total confidence in their driving obviously live under the impression that in life - everything can be controlled and that they have control of everything.

I'll like to see how they plan to get out of a hairy situation like if a driver falls asleep at the wheel on the opposite side of the road, crosses the median and stops in front of you on icy roads...

now I'm not saying ABS is necessary - in fact, few things in life are. Seatbelts aren't necessary. But calling ABS technological nannies sounds like something coming out of the ego and not from the intellect. Anything that adds safety within an affordable price + without added inconvinence = good in my book.

I bet 80 years ago - there was someone saying disc brakes are not necessary and neither are automatic engine starters... i mean - a crank is sufficient and anyone healthy enough and good enough of a driver wouldn't need it.

[SmellyTofu]

I have renewed faith that this forum has people that can have differing opinions and not be a tool at the same time.

[foober]

Let's not even talk about other drivers.. what about those that don't know the road rules like kids that might run out on the road chasing a ball that's rolled across the road or wildlife that jumps out in front of you without warning whilst you're barrelling down at highway speed?

I got a feeling that why? isn't use ABS properly or isn't close enough to have an accident for ABS not to kick in. You don't modulate your braking with ABS.. you jab the brakes hard and leave it there and that way you will minimise braking distance. Lifting off any amount will increase the distance. If you need to lift off or brake not to a point of ABS activating, then it really isn't that much of an emergency situation.

Sure people can go on for months or years without the ABS kicking in.. does that mean you don't need it? I don't smoke, but does that mean I don't need a cigarette lighter? Also added with ABS is brake assist.. an overlooked item.


If car manufacturers really cared about thier cars and the people that drove them they'd put air bags on the outside of the cars to protect the car and persons from impact. We spend thousands of dollars on the inside bags so whats up with not having outside bags that can be inflated by the persons inside the car or by the touch of another car impacting with so much impact. Come on car manufacturers. Wake up. I really want to be protected.

[Andrew Chalmers]

If car manufacturers really cared about thier cars and the people that drove them they'd put air bags on the outside of the cars to protect the car and persons from impact. We spend thousands of dollars on the inside bags so whats up with not having outside bags that can be inflated by the persons inside the car or by the touch of another car impacting with so much impact. Come on car manufacturers. Wake up. I really want to be protected.


I'm not very good at physics - but I believe an outside airbag wouldn't protect anything... airbags work because it prevents the people inside the car from directly stricking hard objects at full force... by letting them hit a compressable mass (air) and releasing the mass pressure in a controlled manner...

What would an airbag do if it just deploys after another vehicle hits another vehicle? One thing to slow a person's mass down... another to try with a car??? Even if you save the car - say you hit a brick wall that won't collapse and the airbag deploys after you hit the wall... you'll just increase the amount of forces the people inside the vehicle will have to endure - talk about major whiplash (imagine going full speed and hitting something - then getting jerked back).

[SmellyTofu]

If car manufacturers really cared about thier cars and the people that drove them they'd put air bags on the outside of the cars to protect the car and persons from impact. We spend thousands of dollars on the inside bags so whats up with not having outside bags that can be inflated by the persons inside the car or by the touch of another car impacting with so much impact. Come on car manufacturers. Wake up. I really want to be protected.

Yeap, there has been work on outside airbags done in the 70's back when airbags were just an idea for the occupants.

One thing people might not know is in Europe, pedestrian safety standards have to be met and many manufacturers produce things that "cushion" the impact to pedestrians being run over.

E.g. Springs on the hinge of the bonnet of your current Subaru Legacy is one thing that is not known. Push hard on the hinge side of the bonnet and it will go down and spring back. They also use an aluminimum bonnet for both weight saving and softness over traditional steel. There are many more innovative items on all cars that help soften the blow to the head when a person is "run over".

[Dweeb]

I know this is going to stir some s**t, but…

ABS on a Street car will not stop you any sooner than a car with out them. (this is the biggest misconception, and also provides drivers with a false sense of security).
In almost all instances (with the exception of a few very specific conditions), a car with ABS will actually take longer to stop than a car with out ABS.
What ABS was “primarily” designed for, was to prevent wheel lock-up under hard/panic breaking “most people lock up their brakes under hard/panic braking” so they would be able to steer. (in panic braking situations, most people freeze, close their eyes, and even scream sometimes). (as you know, when wheels locked up, you cannot steer).
Mind you, most “people” do not know how to module (thresh hold breaking) their brakes, so ABS does work/does what it supposed to do, allow you to steer while braking under the mentioned conditions, but does not stop you any sooner (shorter distance).

These OEM systems for ABS have been designed for a car that has to see different condition, drivers, roads, tires, tires pressures, widths of tire, tire compounds… etc, you get the idea, so it has to be very flexible “general”. So when you have to make a program that runs the ABS system, the ABS pump, sensors, you need to take a lot of factors into consideration. Plus things like, car speed, wheel speed, wheel speed difference, steering angle on certain cars, yaw angle,… you get my point. There are way too many factors to make the system work properly in all conditions.

Some people say that race cars have these systems…. Well…

You cannot not compare “Race ABS/Traction Control” systems with the ones put on a production cars. For one reason, the cost. These systems cost more that your average car.
Also ABS in nothing compare to Traction Control. (Traction control is used in both scenarios, as in acceleration and braking on race cars.) Here is an indication, actual Street Legal Exotic performance cars DO NOT have ABS, they have advanced traction controls, not to the point of F1 or WRC rally cars, but much better that ABS.

ABS, EBD and all the newest hoop-la, has (man I hate to say this) a place in this society that is more interested in how many cup-holders, ABS ,EBD, a car has, than actually “learning to drive, observing the road conditions, and knowing you vehicles characteristics”. Thus making you a better and a safer driver that all of these gadgets together.
No matter what systems you put in that car, it is STILL the “driver” that makes all the difference. The Driver is still the one that will avoid the vehicle in front of him/you, NOT the ABS or the EBD or what ever system they put in the car.

my wife said it best one day - ABS = Alotof Bull S**t

Sorry for the rant boys and girls…



Dweeb

[SmellyTofu]

You are right. There are instances ABS does extend braking distance more than necessary however, what ABS does very well is be consistent.. be it consistently poorly or consistently well. After a few beers, ABS will still perform as well as sober provided you actuate the brake pedal in the same manner (and time). That's the winning factor of ABS is that it does not discriminate against skill level, age, strength and familiarity.

I change from car to car on sometimes a daily basis and it's impossible to get intimate with a vehicle in the first 100m or so. For me, ABS is more important than airbags.

[plushDJ]

I personally find ABS annoying, I used to drive a Yukon with it and especially in winter, annoying!!!!

[ricko]

Why annoying DJ????

[Dweeb]

You are right. There are instances ABS does extend braking distance more than necessary however, what ABS does very well is be consistent.. be it consistently poorly or consistently well.


You are correct about the consistency, as long as you are talking about the same car.
You also mentioned that you drive a lot of different cars, ( I used to also, different one ”rental” almost every day) Than you should know what a difference that makes (different cars, totally different performance/behavior).
Just from my personal cars. The Nissan 350Z has one of the best systems (ABS +VDC +TCS) out there. It can allow you to almost lock up the brakes with it on. It actually, made me not pull the fuse on it. As long as you are on clean tarmac that is.
A Subaru system in general is way too sensitive, you just look at it and it starts pulsating, the newer Impreza STi is better that the WRX or RS.
Dodge, is just as bad, oversensitive in most cases. These are just my personal experiences, from day to day driving and many years in racing.

on a side rant:

It is the driver that makes the difference and avoids collisions. The problem: People put way too much into “it’s got ABS and EBD and….. “ believing" that they will not get into an accident or it will avoid it because of that.

Making all these systems is a good idea and I support it, but they are not going to lessen the amount of accident that we see every day.
There should be a real “driving course” that you have to attend and then pass, that involves driving on every condition of a surface that you may experience, panic stops, collision/obstacle avoidance, see/feel what a front tire blow-out feels like at 100km/h +, what you do when that occurs, what you do when you loose control of a car on snow, ice, when you hit a deep water puddle, what happens when the car over-steer / under-steers on you in a corner, how to properly counter steer and/or correct it and get the car under control again. These are the skills that avoid accidents, the new technology may help with this, for example VDC helps keeping the car pointed in one direction, but it still comes down to the driver.
There are country’s out there that make you take test like I mentioned here to get a driving license.
In North America, to get a drivers license all you have to do is generally is show up, pass a “multiple choice” written test, drive in a parking lot for 10 minutes. Then, HERE is your New and Shiny drivers license sir/mam.

I live in Toronto Canada, there is this driving “test” center by the airport, if you ever want to have a good laugh, go see some people drive there. The “new” wanna-be drivers HIT, and I mean HIT the building that is by the Driving Centre course, when they do their “driving test”. SAD!!

What we need is real driving courses. And not a License in a cereal box.
I know this is logistically impossible, and cost would be astronomical to do with so many people in N.A.. and yes I know about the gradual drivers license program. But hat still doesn’t teach them how to drive, leave correct amount of space in front of them, where to look while driving, (most people look at the bumper of the car ahead… WRONG)

Most of these “new driver courses” that you can take are a joke (no disrespect for anyone)

Ok, enough of may rant…. :bow:

Dweeb

[ricko]

Thanks for the rants Dweeb, your thoughts at least are well considered. Most of your points are in fact dead-on, but I think that you have perhaps missed THE point. The problem IS the driver, and in all but a very small percentage of situations a good, properly trained driver will probably successfully avoid an accident without ABS. But driver training is the critical point, and until you actually have to prove some measure of competence (besides paying the fee) to get a license, the roads will be littered with people who think having possession of that little plastic card means they know how to drive. We both know that is NEVER going to happen.
You live in Toronto ..... how many people do you know who have been to the BMW or similar accident avoidance or skid school? How many do you know who have taking an introductory race program at Shannonville? The sad fact is until a mandatory driver ed program that teaches DRIVING instead of just the rules of the road, is in place the majority of people on the road have no idea how their car works, let alone how to control it. I truly hope all those people who THINK they have mastered driving skills in difficult siuations are as good as they think they are, because the only thing more dangerous than a bad driver is one who THINKS he is good one.
I guess that is my point about ABS being compulsory for everyone. It's not that it is needed by everyone all of the time, but it sure is effective when it is needed. (note - I have had only 1 instance in 4 years with ABS that I think it made a difference - in some cases once is enough) I hope your wife still thinks it is AlotofBullS***, when she she has made a skillfull stop in challenging conditions, and notices some "Dude" in a tricked out van with
$10K stereo and no ABS filling up her mirrors. ABS is not the answer, of course proper driver training and car maintenance is. It has been statistically proven however that ABS does give that "Dude" a better chance of avoiding your wife.

[AlphaFox]

The first time I had a car with ABS I slammed it on in the snow during a curve. I thought it would allow me to steer through it, but all it did was slide me into the curb, ding my rim and screw up my alignment. ABS sucks, I should have tried to power through the curve instead of slow down in it. I put too much faith in the ABS which is what most people do..

[plushDJ]

Pretty much the same reason as AlphaFox, not that I got into an accident or anything but it just made the Yukon slide in the snow. That and the sound it makes is a pain, it seems like it kicks in all the time even when you don't need it too. I've taken lots of driver training (regular, class 1, and emergency situation/avoidance) and I feel I don't need it; it doesnt suit what I've learned or my driving style so I don't need it

[Dweeb]

Both of you made good points,
As for the wife in an accident… well it was actually the ABS that caused her to get into a accident. Downhill on a wet /slushy road (pavement). The car (Durango) did NOT stop for about 60m. She was going about 20km/h on a one lane off-ramp when she started to brake. ABS just kept on pumping. No matter what she did. Could not go left or right, concrete barriers on each side. There was a car on the bottom sitting at a red light. I was with her. If the ABS wasn’t there, the tires would of made contact with the pavement below the slush and would of stopped her. That is the biggest problem with ABS, every time it releases the brake pressure, it lets the tire rotate, this causes the tire to ride up on the “slippery” stuff (may it be snow, slush, wet leafs, loose gravel, mud… that is on top of the solid ground), and you are back to the “wheel locks up” ABS unlocks it “repetition” and you can’t stop.
If the ABS wasn’t there, the tire would of been able to eventually make contact with the solid ground, and she would of stopped.

[ricko]

Although I am doubtful that any of these cases indicate problems with ABS as much, as they indicate an inability to read road conditions (the idea that regular brakes would allow you to reach down through the slush to solid ground is interesting), stats don't lie.
You are right Dweeb, too many people hope for an ABS bailout, without really understanding the technology. Again that is a driver fault. I do find it troubling that you all were unable to modulate brake pressure once you backed off, and feel that the ABS engages without being needed. I have NEVER experienced these problems with my Acura. Of course there is ABS and there is ABS, and since 2 of the vehicles cited were large and very heavy (the Yukon and the Durango), it is possible that ABS works less effeciently on this type of vehicle. None of the sources I researched delineated their stats by type of vehicle.
Before you are too quick to judge the merits or faults of ABS based on personal experiences, I would encourage you to "google" ABS and see what various impartial agencies have to say. After all there are some people who argue that seatbelts are dangerous because they can prevent rapid escape from a car in a fiery accident. And they are right, it is possible.

[Idjiit]

Although I am doubtful that any of these cases indicate problems with ABS as much, as they indicate an inability to read road conditions (the idea that regular brakes would allow you to reach down through the slush to solid ground is interesting), stats don't lie.

Dude... the case above where the person drifted 90 feet when they were only going 20mph doesn't indicate a problem? It's a perfect example of ABS failing where a good driver could have actually controlled the car.

[BensVitz]

And to think, I would have been happy with a simple "Yes" or "No."

Thanx,
Ben

[SmellyTofu]

The first time I had a car with ABS I slammed it on in the snow during a curve. I thought it would allow me to steer through it, but all it did was slide me into the curb, ding my rim and screw up my alignment. ABS sucks, I should have tried to power through the curve instead of slow down in it. I put too much faith in the ABS which is what most people do..

Pretty much the same reason as AlphaFox, not that I got into an accident or anything but it just made the Yukon slide in the snow. That and the sound it makes is a pain, it seems like it kicks in all the time even when you don't need it too. I've taken lots of driver training (regular, class 1, and emergency situation/avoidance) and I feel I don't need it; it doesnt suit what I've learned or my driving style so I don't need it

Hang on guys, ABS allows you to steer and slow down... on the proviso that there is actually grip between the tyres and the contact surface and you have not exceeded the grip level of the tyres. What you guys are expecting ABS to do is what VSC/ESP is suppose to do. They are both different systems.

If you are in terminal understeer/oversteer, no amount of ABS will help you recover because you have already crossed the grip threshold (imagine the grip circle). VSC/ESP however can activate individual brakes on each wheel to keep you turning in the right direction. VSC/ESP is one thing no one can manually replicate without 4 brake pedals.

[plushDJ]

So from what a lot of people are saying is that it contributes to hydroplaning in larger vehicles. I've never actually been in a situation when I've needed it but really, when all I'm doing is slowing down for a stop sign or red light (that would be easily achieved if I did/didn't have ABS)and I hear it roaring at me, really, it just annoys me. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but I just hate the noise.
In my opinion it's like the traction control debate, it is a good thing for MOST people but a lot of pure drivers say it takes away from the driving experience. I personally can do (and have done) anything in a vehicle without ABS that could be done in one with ABS. One thing I was taught was that people don't have enough confidence in a vehicle's ability and it's very true. It would be great if everyone could take an emergency avoidance course just for the experience but that's asking a little too much.

[Dweeb]

how about... maybe :biggrin:

oooops... that reply was for a previous post ... way up

[plushDJ]

The VSC/ESP sounds very cool though, it sounds like Subaru's AWD system but for brakes. And yeah, I gotta agree with dweeb, a lot of it IS THE DRIVER.

[ricko]

I dunno Idjiit 90 (actually 180)feet downhill, on a slushy slippery surface, in a 2 ton pick-up???? Even from 20KPH????? I don't debate that ABS failed to stop the truck, I just have my doubts that a conventional fitted vehicle would do any better. But as I admitted none of the studies I read this morning differentiated between cars, trucks, SUVs etc. If you have found a better source let my know.
Again I am not calling anybody's ability here into question and I readily admit that proper driving courses are the answer, I just don't see that happening.

[plushDJ]

Well yeah, if we have to go to school from kindergarten to grade 12 ( plus college/university) for 13 years + why can't people take a 1 day course on driving??? It's actually stuff that can save your's and other people's lives

[NickNickNick]

ABS saved me from crashing my Yaris a week ago on a stretch of road by my house.

I was driving after work at about midnight, on my way home, in a cluttered residential area with lots of parked cars, and was turning right. City workers were "cleaning up" the roads, and left a LOT of gravel on the road in this area, where I was turning right. My car skidded, started to spin, I hit the brakes, ABS kicked in, car stopped in literally about a second. Had I not had the ABS, I would've slammed into about 3 parked cars, easily, and I was only going around the corner at about 30kms/hr.

[why?]

We have to have real driver training. Make them take a 1 year course and charge them $2,000.

That would stop the people who shouldn't be driving from getting a licence.

Finally I have read what I was getting at.

The technology is meaningless if the driver cannot drive.

I've learned to drive the hard way.

And by that I mean hitting things. Lots of things.

The most important lesson I have learned is that the best way to control a vehicle is to slow down.

If people actually payed attention while they drove, and realized they are two feet behind the car in front of them, and they are going 75 mph, they might start slowing down.

Driving is taken for granted way too much in this country.

I am sure of my driving skills not because I am some genius with tons of skill, but because I actually drove. And got in accidents.

I haven't had an accident in over 5 years now, because I learned to pay attention to driving, and I learned my personal reaction times and tendencies.

I can guarantee I will not need abs because that loser that slammed on his brakes in the middle of the highway is 70 - 100 feet in front of me, and I was going the speed limit.

I can guarantee enough traction because I will slow down to meet the conditions. If thier are white out conditions I will not be going the speed limit on any road.

If I am in a neighborhood I will be looking for people, animals and children, and I will slow down while I am driving by them. If I feel someone is too close to the road and looks like they are going to do something stupid, I might stop, instead of barreling along out of control.

I'll tell you this, I am not some super talented driver. I was never implying any such thing.

Just the opposite, in fact. I am about as super cautious as a human can be.

That is how you do not get into accidents. It has nothing to do with ability and everything to do with patience and cautiousness.

That is how you drive safely.

[ricko]

Amen to proper training for all drivers, whether it is a year long course or a shorter more intensive one. While we are at it let's beef up the testing, and initiate a re-testing program on a regular basis. I don't what the regs are in the U.S., but I'll be 55 this week and haven't been tested since I was 16.

[plushDJ]

why?----well said!!!

[Macel]

I can guarantee enough traction because I will slow down to meet the conditions. If thier are white out conditions I will not be going the speed limit on any road.


You don't need to be going anywhere near the speed limit to lose control in whiteout conditions.

I've been driving for 8 years now and I havent been in an accident. I'm driving a car without ABS. Just this last Thanksgiving, I was doing 15-20 mph on some back roads in a 40mph zone, during the first storm of the year (driving in to work). On a curve, I lost steering and my only recourse was to try and tap the brakes to slow down. Im sure with ABS I would have stopped in time, but without it I slid straight off the road and into a sign, causing about a grand worth of damage to the car. Granted, the car was terrible in the snow, but I was really wishing I had ABS right then.

[Idjiit]

I dunno Idjiit 90 (actually 180)feet downhill, on a slushy slippery surface, in a 2 ton pick-up???? Even from 20KPH????? I don't debate that ABS failed to stop the truck, I just have my doubts that a conventional fitted vehicle would do any better. But as I admitted none of the studies I read this morning differentiated between cars, trucks, SUVs etc. If you have found a better source let my know.
Again I am not calling anybody's ability here into question and I readily admit that proper driving courses are the answer, I just don't see that happening.

You're filtering the information for your own a priori belief. Have you read the statistics that show how accident rates went up after ABS became popular?

[ricko]

Idjiit, I am not filtering anything. That's why I asked if you had ANY sources of contrary opinions. Nothing I came across (admittedly Canadian sources) indicated anything but improved control under panick braking for less skilled drivers. BTW where can I get stopping distances for vehicles like the Durango. I know NOTHING about trucks. At least I am taking the time to research the topic, as opposed to some people who choose to use 1 personal situation to condemn the technology.

[Idjiit]

http://www.aa1car.com/library/abs98f.htm

[ricko]

Thanks Idjiit, a very interesting article. Everyone should read this ....... twice. I'll wait until tomorrow to respond, off to a photo assignment, I need the $$$$$$$$$$$$$.

[Idjiit]

Ultimately the information on ABS statistics isn't clear cut, but what why? is saying is absolutely true - ABS is no replacement for a well-trained driver. Driver's education in the US is fucking ridiculous. We've got a friend from South Africa who says that down there they go through a serious drivers education program, including lots of hours in the car doing accident avoidance, etc. That's much more worthwhile than just throwing technology at a car.

[Macel]

You're filtering the information for your own a priori belief. Have you read the statistics that show how accident rates went up after ABS became popular?

Then perhaps we should fit some kind of explosive device to the bumpers of every car. If you get into a fender bender, BOOM... Dead. That'll make people really careful, and hopefully decrease the accident rate to record lows. That'll also have the nice side effect of no longer needing any car insurance or any accident claims, as all parties involved will be dead should an accident happen.

[SmellyTofu]

ABS is no replacement for a well-trained driver.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[why?]

You don't need to be going anywhere near the speed limit to lose control in whiteout conditions.

I've been driving for 8 years now and I havent been in an accident. I'm driving a car without ABS. Just this last Thanksgiving, I was doing 15-20 mph on some back roads in a 40mph zone, during the first storm of the year (driving in to work). On a curve, I lost steering and my only recourse was to try and tap the brakes to slow down. Im sure with ABS I would have stopped in time, but without it I slid straight off the road and into a sign, causing about a grand worth of damage to the car. Granted, the car was terrible in the snow, but I was really wishing I had ABS right then.

ABS wouldn't have helped. There is a very nasty road that I drive every day to go anywhere. When there is any type of snow there is one particular corner where someone has always gone off the road. I've taken that corner at 10 miles an hour during a snowstorm and slid across the road when I foolishly hit the brakes in a car with ABS. Hitting the brakes in that situation simply doesn't help at all whether or not you have ABS. In some cases, actually stepping on the gas and making the tires spin will help to regain traction.

Sometimes there is absolutely nothing you can do to avoid an accident.

[Dweeb]

^^ oh... 2 seconds or 20 feet will solve the problem :wink: :thumbsup: jk

Dweeb

[ricko]

Agreed Idjiit the stats of that article really don't resolve anything. In fact we could spend the next month going over various studies both for and against ABS, and I don't think we would see a clear cut answer. What we do agree on is a proper driver training and testing is needed. The situation in Canada is a joke, and from the sounds of it the same is true in the U.S.A. Until drivers understand the operation and use of ALL systems in their vehicles (including ABS if they have it) and have the opps to try them in emergency situations, under controlled conditions (ie. skidpad), we will continue to have thousands of avoidable accidents. After all, there is not much point in pulling the ripcord on your parachute, after you have hit the ground.

[Ziv]

I would Highly prefer NOT having it then do.

[bB2NER]

What do we look for to know if our hatch has ABS?:iono:

[dobbiedoo]

I got it and it works great. Tell me what kind of snow does the cape get, nothing. Come to boston and drive then talk.

[SilverBack]

What do we look for to know if our hatch has ABS?:iono:

Slam on the brakes in a dry and empty parking lot going in a straight line. If you lock-up then you got no ABS

[bB2NER]

I checked the fuse box under the hood and there is no relay for the ABS so I ain't got ABS.

[Yar15]

I'm not a specialist but what anyone can see on the net, i prefer ABS breaks for every car.

[RedRide]

I agree that the there is no substitue for good driving.

Having said that, the Yaris is the fist car I ever purchased with ABS.
Early ABS was anoying and had much to be desired.
However modern ABS like on the Yaris is not that bad at all IMO.
There is now no pedal pulsating, etc and it seems that ABS has finally matured, just like power steering had to do.

Also,, if road conditions are slipery, (even potentially) one should not push the car too hard to begin with.

[sternz]

Not at the moment since the sensors are all messed up and I will not get them repaired unless there's a recall from Toyota since there are so many people having this problem.

[mazilla]

I've never had ABS activate on any car I've driven(roughly 700,000 miles over the last 10 years)...man this thread is old.

[why?]

On a car as light as the Yaris I really don't think it is worth it.

If I want to steer I'm not going to be hitting the brakes.

It is just another nanny device for people that shouldn't have drivers licenses.

this says everything. Old threads are fun, it is interesting to see all the old peoples who ran away.