Bogus Lawsuit CostsToyota 1 Billion $

[bronsin]

This is the same BS that cost Audi billions of dollars and its share of the US market in the early 90s. Now its happening to Toyota.

Its not possible for a FI engine to "accelerate all by itself" yet somehow its going to cost Toyota a billion dollars!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/26/toyota-reaches-settlement-in-acceleration-recall-cases/?test=latestnews

[Billiam]

Seems odd to me that a company can be held liable for the future value of a product they produce. There is nothing in a buyer's contract that quarantees what a vehicle will be worth at some point down the road. Even if it was a leased vehicle the residual value is pre-determined at the beginning of the lease and the lessee assumes no responsibility if the value drops.

[bronsin]

Its the lawyer biz cuz.

And we's payin'!

[fnkngrv]

Total BS for sure. I actually refinanced my Yaris two times during the interval in which they are discussing 09/10 as well as almost traded it in on another car so I know how much the car was truly worth. The value of my car did NOT drop. IF folks received less on a trace or sale during this time because of the supposed acceleration fiasco then that was because of their own stupidity when dealing with dealers and private buyers IMHO. There are suckers born everyday and you have to love how they seem to pull the wool over so many eyes when they make bad choices or decisions. This is just like the deal back in the day with the lawsuit about coffee being hot and the cups not being labeled as such.

[Bluevitz-rs]

This is just like the deal back in the day with the lawsuit about coffee being hot and the cups not being labeled as such.

There's an episode of Seinfeld right there LOL.

[DMZ]

I bought a base '05 Tacoma in 2006 for $15K. Two years and 32K miles later I totaled it after hitting black ice and sliding into a rock cut bank. The insurance adjuster offered $14,750 for it. $250 depreciation! I took the money and put it down on a Tundra.

I had a recall notice in my desk for the vehicle awaiting me to make an appointment at the dealer.

If I was a crook, I could have claimed the throttle stuck and I hit a icy spot, totaling the truck. Probably would have got a new Tacoma +$$$'s from Toyota. Not my style.

[Billiam]

I bought a base '05 Tacoma in 2006 for $15K. Two years and 32K miles later I totaled it after hitting black ice and sliding into a rock cut bank. The insurance adjuster offered $14,750 for it. $250 depreciation! I took the money and put it down on a Tundra.

I had a recall notice in my desk for the vehicle awaiting me to make an appointment at the dealer.

If I was a crook, I could have claimed the throttle stuck and I hit a icy spot, totaling the truck. Probably would have got a new Tacoma +$$$'s from Toyota. Not my style.
Actually...Toyota would've pulled info on brake and throttle application from "The Box"...as they started doing soon after this whole debacle began. You made the right choice....being honest. :thumbsup:

[fnkngrv]

Actually...Toyota would've pulled info on brake and throttle application from "The Box"...as they started doing soon after this whole debacle began. You made the right choice....being honest. :thumbsup:


To elaborate on that "The Box" also records top speed reached as well as how many times/often it occurs. This will enable Toyota to dispute certain failure claims as abusive utilization of the vehicle. A buddy of mine found that out a couple months back when he took his 2012 Tundra TRD Sport packaged truck down the course at the land speed runs for grins. He hit the fuel cutoff at roughly 125mph and bounced off it several times in the 1.5 miles. He took the truck in for his complementary oil change and asked how that whole thing works and was educated on what manufacturers are doing to protect themselves now. He was told that if the engine failed that he would most likely have not been able to have it covered since he ran it the way he did. Good food for thought. :thumbsup:

[edmscan]

I just think that it is BS .. as some people are just trying to get rich off of Toyota cause they are seen to have lots of money.

But don't worry Toyota will make that money back .. on the backs of people that buy their cars. So really we all are paying for some peoples greedyness.

[tk1971]

My impression from the various articles, was that this settlement collectively addresses not just the sudden acceleration cases blamed solely on the electronics, but the floor mat and accelerator pedal mechanism issue too. The latter two are mechanical issues with a physical manifestation. While the avalanche of lawsuits is likely a product of greed and mass hysteria, I wouldn't necessary discount ALL of the accidents/deaths as operator error. Just playing devil's advocate...

[fnkngrv]

^ dude....the bulk of the floormat fiasco was from idiots that stack their mats. just sayin that pretty much wipes away the whole floormat argument with the argument that allowing idiots to have keys to cars is the norm not the exception. Just for the record as well my ex-wife and I got into an argument about the whole stacking mats deal a few years back when our marriage was just peachy keen...told her she was being stupid too. Leaving your other mats in and stacking is just pure laziness.

[nookandcrannycar]

Total BS for sure. I actually refinanced my Yaris two times during the interval in which they are discussing 09/10 as well as almost traded it in on another car so I know how much the car was truly worth. The value of my car did NOT drop. IF folks received less on a trace or sale during this time because of the supposed acceleration fiasco then that was because of their own stupidity when dealing with dealers and private buyers IMHO. There are suckers born everyday and you have to love how they seem to pull the wool over so many eyes when they make bad choices or decisions. This is just like the deal back in the day with the lawsuit about coffee being hot and the cups not being labeled as such.

^^^^^ This. One of the reasons (IMO, and I know in the opinion of a fair number of others) we have the number of lawsuits filed that we do in the U.S. is that we haven't historically followed the concept of 'Loser Pays' re lawsuits. Quite a few other developed countries have 'Loser Pays' re lawsuits. 'Loser Pays' means that if you file a lawsuit, and you lose, you have to pay the legal fees of the party you sued in addition to your own. Here in Texas, 'Loser Pays' legislation passed the state legislature and was signed into law in 2011 (I just love this state!). This was accomplished even though Texas trial lawyers spent 13 million dollars attempting to defeat the proposal. I don't know if any other states have done this. I also don't know if obtaining class action certification (as the 'hot coffee' suit did) for a lawsuit would invalidate or change the implementation of 'Loser Pays' or not for such cases (I would hope it wouldn't).

Whenever I hear about the results of a class action lawsuit, it almost invariably seems as though the plaintiffs in the class aren't getting much and the attorneys are, IMO, overpaid. A talking head on one of the financial channels today said the attorneys were to get over 300 million of the Toyota settlement. A few minutes later (after being handed a sheet of paper) this was corrected to a bit over 200 million going to 85 attorneys in I can't remember how many firms. Still too much, IMO (even though some of the plaintiffs in this case seem to be better taken care of than in some other suits I've heard about).

[nookandcrannycar]

Actually...Toyota would've pulled info on brake and throttle application from "The Box"...as they started doing soon after this whole debacle began. You made the right choice....being honest. :thumbsup:

How I feel about 'The Box' has changed over the years. I read my owners manual carefully when I first purchased my new Yaris and I didn't like the description of 'The Box'. Too Orwellian...I was p****d off. I have since made peace with it. I still think in is too Orwellian, but I now look upon it as partial proof of my safe driving.

[Billiam]

How I feel about 'The Box' has changed over the years. I read my owners manual carefully when I first purchased my new Yaris and I didn't like the description of 'The Box'. Too Orwellian...I was p****d off. I have since made peace with it. I still think in is too Orwellian, but I now look upon it as partial proof of my safe driving.
Toyota (like many other companies) has been forced to find ways to protect it's self from bogus claims. So many of these SUA claims were debunked after "The Box" was analyzed.

[nookandcrannycar]

Toyota (like many other companies) has been forced to find ways to protect it's self from bogus claims. So many of these SUA claims were debunked after "The Box" was analyzed.

I know, you're right. I'm just too idealistic. The fact that we live in a society where cameras are needed to help deter people from stealing and doing other things wrong is, IMO, pathetic. I spent a fair amount of time in Scandinavia earlier in my life (especially in Sweden) and I remember it being more like the way I wish things would be here, now (the nature of goodness part....not the so called cradle to grave part. I don't think the two are, by necessity, related) . I haven't been there since just before 9/11. I've read that much has changed (irrespective of 9/11). Being, in a few ways, a 'disappointed idealist' forced to be a realist probably stokes the cynical view I have toward some things.

[bronsin]

As a motorcyclist I want every single one of those other people sharing the road with me driving cars to have boxes up their ying yang. The more boxes and camera the better! Ive past the point where I could do something to kill myself on a mc. Its far more likely someone driving a car will do it for me. If it happens.

When cheapo video cameras came out I had one on my bike. Theres a video of me on utube almost getting killed by a white Tuarus making a left hand turn from the right hand lane.

I saw it coming. Dingbat was just sitting there in the right lane no brake lights no turn signals not moving. I have a rule. If they do one stupid thing they will do another stupid thing! Or three or four of them!

[nookandcrannycar]

As a motorcyclist I want every single one of those other people sharing the road with me driving cars to have boxes up their ying yang. The more boxes and camera the better! Ive past the point where I could do something to kill myself on a mc. Its far more likely someone driving a car will do it for me. If it happens.

When cheapo video cameras came out I had one on my bike. Theres a video of me on utube almost getting killed by a white Tuarus making a left hand turn from the right hand lane.

I saw it coming. Dingbat was just sitting there in the right lane no brake lights no turn signals not moving. I have a rule. If they do one stupid thing they will do another stupid thing! Or three or four of them!

^^^^^ Your post provides the impetus for serious questions...Why is it so easy to get a DL in the U.S.? If we had the rigor in any state that they do in Germany re preparing a person to drive legally, would your Taurus driver or anyone else that lacking be able to get a DL?

[bronsin]

^^^^^ Your post provides the impetus for serious questions...Why is it so easy to get a DL in the U.S.? If we had the rigor in any state that they do in Germany re preparing a person to drive legally, would your Taurus driver or anyone else that lacking be able to get a DL?

Well when you consider we are 16 trillion in debt and counting up fast there you might have your answer.

Im thinking the Germans arent in debt one farthing.

We just arent responsible as a nation.

Its all Seseme Streets fault! :laugh:

[nookandcrannycar]

Well when you consider we are 16 trillion in debt and counting up fast there you might have your answer.

Im thinking the Germans arent in debt one farthing.

We just arent responsible as a nation.

Its all Seseme Streets fault! :laugh:

Yeah, I guess addressing the skill level of the populace re driving might be considered fiddling while Rome burns to many given all of the other problems we have as a country. IMO, one of our biggest problems is that we have many politicians who care more about their own selfish agendas than about the country. One of my best friends is a native U.S. citizen who went to medical school in Sweden. He now practices primarily in Sweden, and he told me that in the U.S., drug companies sponsor seminars/junkets/trips (whatever best describes the event) to aid physicians re learning all about the drugs. He said that despite what cynics might think, that this is really helpful. He said that in Sweden, the government is so worried that the drug companies might exert improper influence on the physicians, that the system the U.S. enjoys is pretty much not allowed. He said it's good that the government cares so much about potential corruption, but that it does make it harder on the doctors to obtain all potential tools that could be at their disposal', so to speak. Can you imagine where we'd be if the U.S. government cared that much about potential conflicts of interest!....step..step..step.....okay, now off soapbox :biggrin:

[tk1971]

^^^^^ Your post provides the impetus for serious questions...Why is it so easy to get a DL in the U.S.? If we had the rigor in any state that they do in Germany re preparing a person to drive legally, would your Taurus driver or anyone else that lacking be able to get a DL?

When I went to the DMV for my motorcycle endorsement (M1) test, the DMV person said that since I've been renewing my driver's license by mail all this time, they might as well make me take both the M/C and Class C (car) tests.

So... I took both tests. I passed both, but I didn't study for the driver's test. The last time I took the driver's test was when I was 16 years old. Some of the stats/figures are different between then and now.

As easy as I thought it was, I witnessed the test grader tell a fair amount of people there that they can re-take the test in a week.

[tk1971]

^ dude....the bulk of the floormat fiasco was from idiots that stack their mats. just sayin that pretty much wipes away the whole floormat argument with the argument that allowing idiots to have keys to cars is the norm not the exception. Just for the record as well my ex-wife and I got into an argument about the whole stacking mats deal a few years back when our marriage was just peachy keen...told her she was being stupid too. Leaving your other mats in and stacking is just pure laziness.

In one of the higher profile deaths, the driver of the loaner car was a cop. I don't know about you, but before all this became front page news, I'd rarely give floor mats any thought whenever I rent a car, or pick up a loaner vehicle. How would the driver know that the rubber floor mat on the dealer loaner vehicle was incorrect?

In fact, even after buying a car with keyless ignition, I still keep grabbing for the ignition key. Out of our 3 cars, only one has keyless ignition. That's decades of muscle memory to overcome and maintain for the other 2 cars.

In a life and death situation when the car is barreling down the street at triple digit speeds, the last thing I would do is to stick my head down between my legs to check the floor mats. I'd also be hard pressed to remember how to turn off the moving vehicle using the push-button emergency sequence.

In this one case, I'm not saying Toyota was at fault (the Lexus dealer is at fault here, IMO, because they installed the wrong mat and ignored a previous complaint for that same vehicle).

(from wiki):

On August 28, 2009, a two-car collision killed four people riding in a Lexus dealer-provided loaner ES 350 in San Diego, California.[46][47][48][49] The NHTSA released a safety investigation report on October 25, finding that the accident vehicle was wrongly fitted with all-weather rubber floor mats meant for the RX 400h SUV, and that these mats were not secured by either of the two retaining clips.[50] The brake hardware also showed signs of heavy braking consistent with a stuck accelerator pedal.[50] The report stated that the accelerator pedal's hinge did not allow relieving obstructions, and the dashboard lacked directions for the three-second emergency press of the push button keyless ignition. NHTSA investigators also recovered the accident vehicle's accelerator pedal, which was still "bonded" to the SUV floor mat.[50] The return spring action of the accelerator pedal was found to be "smooth and unencumbered."[51]

Another investigation conducted by the San Diego County Sheriff's Department found that three days prior to the crash another customer had complained to the dealership about the floor mat trapping the same loaner car's accelerator pedal while driving.[52] The prior driver had switched to neutral and tugged on the floor mat, which released the accelerator.[52]

[nookandcrannycar]

When I went to the DMV for my motorcycle endorsement (M1) test, the DMV person said that since I've been renewing my driver's license by mail all this time, they might as well make me take both the M/C and Class C (car) tests.

So... I took both tests. I passed both, but I didn't study for the driver's test. The last time I took the driver's test was when I was 16 years old. Some of the stats/figures are different between then and now.

As easy as I thought it was, I witnessed the test grader tell a fair amount of people there that they can re-take the test in a week.

That is quite sad. I recall a fair number of past trips to the DMV in California for registration changes, and people would have friends quizzing them prior to taking the exam. Left me internally shaking my head more than once. I don't imagine Texas is appreciably better in this regard.

[nookandcrannycar]

In one of the higher profile deaths, the driver of the loaner car was a cop. I don't know about you, but before all this became front page news, I'd rarely give floor mats any thought whenever I rent a car, or pick up a loaner vehicle. How would the driver know that the rubber floor mat on the dealer loaner vehicle was incorrect?

In fact, even after buying a car with keyless ignition, I still keep grabbing for the ignition key. Out of our 3 cars, only one has keyless ignition. That's decades of muscle memory to overcome and maintain for the other 2 cars.

In a life and death situation when the car is barreling down the street at triple digit speeds, the last thing I would do is to stick my head down between my legs to check the floor mats. I'd also be hard pressed to remember how to turn off the moving vehicle using the push-button emergency sequence.

In this one case, I'm not saying Toyota was at fault (the Lexus dealer is at fault here, IMO, because they installed the wrong mat and ignored a previous complaint for that same vehicle).

(from wiki):

On August 28, 2009, a two-car collision killed four people riding in a Lexus dealer-provided loaner ES 350 in San Diego, California.[46][47][48][49] The NHTSA released a safety investigation report on October 25, finding that the accident vehicle was wrongly fitted with all-weather rubber floor mats meant for the RX 400h SUV, and that these mats were not secured by either of the two retaining clips.[50] The brake hardware also showed signs of heavy braking consistent with a stuck accelerator pedal.[50] The report stated that the accelerator pedal's hinge did not allow relieving obstructions, and the dashboard lacked directions for the three-second emergency press of the push button keyless ignition. NHTSA investigators also recovered the accident vehicle's accelerator pedal, which was still "bonded" to the SUV floor mat.[50] The return spring action of the accelerator pedal was found to be "smooth and unencumbered."[51]

Another investigation conducted by the San Diego County Sheriff's Department found that three days prior to the crash another customer had complained to the dealership about the floor mat trapping the same loaner car's accelerator pedal while driving.[52] The prior driver had switched to neutral and tugged on the floor mat, which released the accelerator.[52]

Depending on the weight and height of the driver, and even the shoes the driver wears, the retaining clips might not have their intended effect. I always had my mats secured by the retaining clips. I bought a new pair of hiking boots, and after I wore them a few times the 'wear through' on my floor mats was complete. I then removed the driver side floor mat (this was at about 208,000 miles) and the 'klunking' into reverse (for lack of a better word) and a few other sounds, all of which I thought were inherent to the car, were gone. I realized that over many of these miles, the clutch hadn't been able to be engaged as designed because of the wear the mat had endured had allowed it to 'expand' and get in the way of complete clutch travel. Neither a dealer loaner car nor a rental car would likely be in service at the age and mileage level my car had when I noticed this, but many different people with many different types of shoes driving a car might actually wear the mats faster. I think the wear could effect pedals other than the clutch. I've driven my aunt's RX a few times (including a 1,000+ miles on a trip), but I don't remember how the floor mats are configured and retained. Obviously, having the wrong floor mats in a car can create even bigger problems. I wonder if the length of a proper RX 400h mat (from retaining clip hole to end) is longer than the same for a proper ES 350 mat.

[UberSilver]

This is the same BS that cost Audi billions of dollars and its share of the US market in the early 90s. Now its happening to Toyota.

Its not possible for a FI engine to "accelerate all by itself" yet somehow its going to cost Toyota a billion dollars!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/26/toyota-reaches-settlement-in-acceleration-recall-cases/?test=latestnews

It's no coincidence that Toyota pass GM in world sales(for the first time in 75 years), just months before the "accelerate all by itself" BS.

Ford is the only American car maker thats improved auto quality and design. The other two just sling mud(mostly GM).:thumbdown:

[bobolinko]

This is the same BS that cost Audi billions of dollars and its share of the US market in the early 90s. Now its happening to Toyota.

Its not possible for a FI engine to "accelerate all by itself" yet somehow its going to cost Toyota a billion dollars!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/26/toyota-reaches-settlement-in-acceleration-recall-cases/?test=latestnews

I too thought like you, till My Scion XD did the ACCELRATE BY ITSELF thing!
I have a manual so kicked it into neutral, and turned off the power. Upon restarting, it went to FULL THROTTLE, all by itself. I was in a Toyota lot in Hawaii, with a mechanic riding as a passenger. He was there to verify the trans would grind when going from second to third gear. He, along with myself, was blown away. It repeatedly did the same thing till he removed battery cables for a moment, and redid connections on the throttle position sensor. It then went back to normal operation. The condition is not like you think "not possible" I saw PROOF that it happens. Scary as it is, it is for real! It also was not the floor rugs causing the problem.

[nookandcrannycar]

It's no coincidence that Toyota pass GM in world sales(for the first time in 75 years), just months before the "accelerate all by itself" BS.

Ford is the only American car maker thats improved auto quality and design. The other two just sling mud(mostly GM).:thumbdown:

........sling mud and take bailouts that give equity that belongs to the bondholders to the UAW/menbers :thumbdown:. (couldn't resist :biggrin:)

[why?]

just to mention the europeans have actual tests for drivers licenses and we don't.

The reason still is 80% of the country it doesn't matter that much. And while cruel, i have no problem letting dumbasses kill themselves with vehicles alone. So much better than letting them hurt others through their stupidity.

I do think certain urban areas should actually have harder drivers license tests, but if the only way you can legitimately get anywhere is a car, then the license tests cannot be impossible or absurdly expensive, like they are in europe. There, driving really is unnecessary. Here, in the majority of cases, it is basically mandatory.

[DebbyM46227]

It's no coincidence that Toyota pass GM in world sales(for the first time in 75 years), just months before the "accelerate all by itself" BS.

No one will ever talk me out of the idea that "O" our Prez and his cronies were somehow behind the Toyota "problem" solely to knock Toyota from #1.