3rd gen 1zz tb swap

[mr_miles]

This thread is mostly to get something documented I cant find via search (most likely because I'm not typing the right words) and to help clarify some questions other people may have about this mod on their third gen. Mods, feel free to move this thread if need be :)

This is all with a 0d030 chip..........and the Micro image intake manifold. You may experience some differences with the OEM manifold.

First install with ECU reset netted 4 rev's from roughly 800 to 2000, then idled at 2200 until warm.

Cold start is the typical 2-3k rpm range, except mine drops to "normal" revs in less than a minute.

Hot start on gen 3 is roughly 1800 rpm, then it creeps down to a varying 1100 to 700 ish.

No CEL's yet, I've driven probably close to 200 miles.

When DFCO kicks in, YOU FEEL IT. At times it almost feels unnatural how the car jolts.

with that above statement said, Cruise control still functions normally. I only say this because I've noticed that some CC setups (mostly aftermarket ones*cough* Rostra*cough*) can cease to hold your speed with slight jolts like that or bumps.

me commenting on power differences is negligible as I have the MI intake manifold i installed at the same time.


on to one of the issues, so we can discuss that :D

The part I can't find via searching, is all the rev hunting I am experiencing.
Foot on the gas, the car is great. foot OFF the gas in NEUTRAL, we have problems. It hunts for revs. It drops to roughly 700, then jumps to 2000, drops to 800, jumps to 2000, does the jump to 800 once more, then crawls to 3200 and falls to an idle of a varying 800 - 1200.

before I mess with the set idle screw, I'll do the chip swap, as I'm not entirely sure it's an idle issue so much as a "can't find home" issue.


Questions / comments, i'll contribute as much as I can :)

[CrankyOldMan]

How clean was the valve before you installed it? I bought one that was heavily fouled and didn't return all the way to "closed" when released. I didn't install it (took it completely apart) so I don't have any feedback on the actual hunting issue. In my research it seemed to be a complete crap shoot as far as getting it to settle down and stop hunting.

Perhaps Tooter can shed some light on this, since he's working with a 1ZZ and a highly irregular intake manifold on a 3rd gen.

[Bluevitz-rs]

Tooter backed his idle screw off one full turn and it fixed all his problems. No chip swap. So maybe try that first.

[mr_miles]

It was moderately dirty when I bought it, but I cleaned and sanded it all down to make it purdy, inside and out. It also appeared to be closing to the proper place, as well. It's a weird issue. It idles fine after it goes through it's little pattern. I'll take a video of it, it's interesting.

[mr_miles]

Have some vidya. Discuss. my foot is only on the pedal to move. towards the end of video number two all that fluctuation after I get on it a little is done by the car, not by me.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/vash_the_stamepede/th_20130419_101018_zpsa05c08a1.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/vash_the_stamepede/20130419_101018_zpsa05c08a1.mp4)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/vash_the_stamepede/th_20130419_101211_zps5aed65d5.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/vash_the_stamepede/20130419_101211_zps5aed65d5.mp4)

[mr_miles]

Interestingly enough, the chip swap so far seems to have fixed the issue. I didn't go for a long drive yet, but I am about ready to head out to run some errands, so I'll update after I get home.

I noticed immediately after the install and ecu reset it was different. had the high idle but no surges like before upon first start. also, it surged a little after I got on it, but just once.

Upon looking at both chips next to each other, there were no noticeable differences on the inside, everything was identical, including identification numbers. I wonder what differences the numbers on the outside mean? This has me curious.

[tooter]

Tooter backed his idle screw off one full turn and it fixed all his problems. No chip swap. So maybe try that first.

Out of desperation I actually did swap the chip but it didn't solve the problem. Only backing out the idle screw resolved the issue. :thumbsup:

[mr_miles]

I'm going to try that later today. I still have a few issues after the chip swap. It's better with the stock chip, but still not perfect. My butt dyno is happy, though.

[tooter]

Trust me... you'll be glad you did the idle screw. (at top of pic) :smile:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b90/compost_bin/car/IMG_6637_zpsa7d61541.jpg

Just be really careful about chipping the resin off of it and make sure that you find an allen wrench that fits the tiny screw really tight, because if you strip the head, you're screwed.

The screw is really locked in there and does not want to turn. You'll hear a "snap" when it breaks free. When you're done adjusting it by trail and error, simply put a dollop of silicone on it to hold it in place so that if you ever need to readjust, the silicone can be removed easily.

[mr_miles]

Aye, I thought of chipping the epoxy off before I put it on just in case. but I figured I'd leave it just in case I didn't need to adjust.

it only rev searched once today. Looks like I have to leave it as is for a few more days. if it doesn't fix itself prior to my next work weekend (4 days) I'll adjust it.

My idle still varies slightly. I cant figure out any reasoning for it to change, but it will idle normal, at 750 - 800, or at 1000-1200.

[mazilla]

When you start adjusting your idle be sure to mark the adjusent screws original location before you begin. If you have to start from scratch you can back the screw out enough to completely close the flange(and choke/stall out the engine) then open it a little at a time until you get the idle you want.

This should be done at 180+ degree thermostat as the idle will drop when the water temp starts creeping up into 200.


There is a whole world of issues when you add in a light flywheel/pullies and the 1zz.

[CrankyOldMan]

This should be done at 180+ degree thermostat as the idle will drop when the water temp starts creeping up into 200.
So you're planning for "worst case" scenario, when the ECU drops the RPMs?
There is a whole world of issues when you add in a light flywheel/pullies and the 1zz.
Please share your experiences. I'm looking to add a lightweight flywheel and possibly a 1ZZ TB in the future.

[mazilla]

So you're planning for "worst case" scenario, when the ECU drops the RPMs?


Please share your experiences. I'm looking to add a lightweight flywheel and possibly a 1ZZ TB in the future.


I have a MI crankP, the 9.46lb flywheel and Clutchmasters stage III which was half-resurfaced with their new compound making it somewhere between a stage III and IV...I forget the details as I went over it with CM a while ago, braided clutch lines.

I also have an Alpine PDX amp and a Fosgate T1.


At normal idle with 1zz

#1. Bass drops always equal rough idle, rough idle equals clutch chatter/flywheel noise(hard to describe, but it's not good) and hard take-offs if a bass drop and the clutch drop coincide.

#2. Normal idle being so low equal rough idle, which equals clutch chatter/flywheel noise(hard to describe, but it's not good) and hard take-offs if an idle drop and the clutch drop coincide.


#3. Coasting to a stop from 4th gear the ecu cannot keep up with the rapid RPM loss(due, I feel to the lighter parts) and the car stalls as I approach an intersection...embarrassing.


#4. When the water temp. gets up past 180/190(ish) the ecu manages to drop the idle a good 100-150RPM or so, enough to get me from the 850rpm area that I can live with back into the "chatter zone".


To compensate the answer is to increase idle to roughly 1000RPM. It solves those problems perfectly.

Increased idle...to the point it solves the above w/ 1zz

#1. Intense cold start idle hunt, the first start of the day, every time without fail. Engine will idle hunt to 3200/3300 before dropping back to about 500(or so) a good 6+ times...then there is a steady hold @ 3200/3300 as the engine works it way down over the course of 30 seconds to 1 min. The usual "first start" syndrome usually fixed by the ecu for people running normal idle...only it never goes away. That can't be good long term, especially when I go boost.

#2. CEL for idle control


I spent a long time over the course of a few days trying to get the idle right, I couldn't find a happy medium because of that danged idle drop @ +180 deg. thermostat.

Finally I went back to the 1nz and increased the idle to 1,000 @ 200 degree thermostat. Cold start is 2,000 rpm and then back down like a normal car, you wouldn't notice the extra RPM's if you didn't have a tach to look at. Warm idle is solid, no more stalling, shaking at lights (unless the bass drop is particularly nasty ;) ).


I haven't had the stomach to dive back into the 1zz, wit everything running smooth it's tough to convince myself it's worthwhile...

[mr_miles]

hmm, I have the pulleys, and I plan on getting a flywheel soon lol. I'm liking this thread so far, we're starting to compile a lot of good info :)

[why?]

The 1zz is starting to sound like more trouble than it could possible be worth. What are the benefits of it exactly?

I have a k&n air intake, lightweight flywheel, aftermarket clutch, NST pulley set with 10% underdrive pulley, lightweight wheels and tires.

My cold idle is high for my taste, but the warm idle is rock solid at 700 rpms.

[YarisSedan]

I think the issue is with the bigger throttle body and computer controlled idle it's opening the throttle the same amount with the bigger butterfly but the larger butterfly and opening means more entering the throttle which in turn means a higher idle when the ecu tells the throttle to open to 15 percent it's actually 25 percent because it's larger than stock but the ecu doesn't know that. So when you bump the idle down manually when the ecu sends the signal for 15 percent it's only opening 10 percent but that equates to 15 percent still vs the stock throttle so the idle is now the same if that makes sense. It's the same thing if you pull a vacuum hose when the car is running the rpm will jump up for a bit till the o2 Sensors adapt. I think for the trouble It's worth it's better to get one of those electronic throttle controllers you will get the same results but less hassle and you can customize safely the throttle response and gain all the performance without sacrificing a lot of economy. If anyone has this mod and have access to a scanner that can see live data I'm interested to see what the long term and short term fuel trims are

[mr_miles]

^ very well put. The main reason I'm not adjusting it all now is because I want to learn more about it and how the ECU adapts, for all of us. there seems to be a large grey area regarding the TB and I want to clear it up. I did order a Bluetooth OBDII adapter that has pretty high reviews, so I will be sure to post any and all info regarding fuel and air (if it displays that) for us :)

The car very rarely rev hunts now. I think I could get away without adjusting the idle, except my cold start is about 500 - 750 rpm too high for my tastes. before it gets to its normal running temp it will idle at 1k (after the light goes off), but sometimes if you give it gas it will rest back at 2k after you let off the pedal for 15 seconds or so. this is fun. I like experimenting and learning with stuff like this.

[tooter]

The 1zz is starting to sound like more trouble than it could possible be worth.

That all depends on how it is set up.

I haven't touched mine in the 3 months since I turned down the idle screw. There have been zero issues since then, and this is my wife's daily driver. Throttle response is excellent with absolutely no loss in drivability.

What are the benefits of it exactly?

The exact benefits are quantified in the difference between the blue stock 1NZ throttle body line and the green 1ZZ throttle body line.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b90/compost_bin/car/nocursor_zpsb9efc45e.jpg?t=1358804825

[mr_miles]

Interesting. I was wondering the differences between the two. that gives me an idea of a number to add on top of the intake manifold. still going to dyno soon, though. I want to know. i didn't notice the coolant lines in your picture of the TB. are they easy to pull out? I am not using them, nor will I ever.

[tooter]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you could extrapolate that increase onto your own baseline dyno as those comparative runs were done with the only single change being the throttle body.

I'm running the stock coolant lines on my 1ZZ. They're just routed underneath for a slightly more uncluttered appearance.


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b90/compost_bin/car/IMG_6635_zpseb1d520d.jpg

The only 1ZZ thing you'll never get rid of is a 2,000 rpm cold start idle as that throttle percentage opening is fixed by the ECU for the smaller throttle body. But it drops rapidly to a smooth stable normal idle as the engine warms.

[mr_miles]

Ah - your TB is also turned 45 degrees compared to mine, hence me not seeing the lines :p I have the chip on the side, instead of the top. Shouldn't affect it in any way depending on how that's faced, should it? My cold start is 3k, guess it's time to adjust that idle screw!

[tooter]

Ah - your TB is also turned 45 degrees compared to mine, hence me not seeing the lines :p I have the chip on the side, instead of the top.

Yes. Offsetting the bolt holes in the adaptor to miss the ones in the manifold necessitated some rotation...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b90/compost_bin/car/IMG_6741_zpsd9e61d43.jpg



Luckily it's fly by wire so no linkage issues are created. :smile:

Shouldn't affect it in any way depending on how that's faced, should it?

Nope. :smile:
It's just a variable valve metering air.

My cold start is 3k, guess it's time to adjust that idle screw!

You'll be glad you did even though it's a tedious task. Try backing it off one full turn at first, and then fine tune it. When your cold idle begins at 2,100 right at start up, your hot idle should be just right. :thumbsup:

[mr_miles]

I'll adjust it before I start it tomorrow morning, then!

[mr_miles]

Adjusted the idle screw down - cold start varies from 2100 to 2400 depending on the outside temperature, lol. May or may not turn it down a hair more, but my warm idle is fairly low. seems to be around 750-800, and then when it does that little drop it goes to 600. :x probably shouldn't go lower.

[tooter]

Yours may be behaving slightly different because you're running the stock manifold. I have absolutely no experience with that and only know about the tooter. My cold start is 2,100rpm and always drops (rapidly) to a smooth stable 600rpm hot idle.

[mazilla]

Yours may be behaving slightly different because you're running the stock manifold. I have absolutely no experience with that and only know about the tooter. My cold start is 2,100rpm and always drops (rapidly) to a smooth stable 600rpm hot idle.

@ 600 rpm I would be stalling, my clutch squealing and chattering and my pullies making a clackity clack sound...


That low idle might be fine for fairly stock vehicles driven conservatively, when you get to "my level"(I know how that sounds, it's not my intention) there is that chain of events that lead to a circle of headache.


Either that or my car(having the identical issue with two motors/trans and both manifolds) has some hidden problem I'm missing.

[mr_miles]

im running the micro image manifold :) ill test it at a slightly lower idle rpm, maybe I can get a stable 600 as well. we shall see!