Extended cranking before starting

[linny]

I have an '08 liftback MT that's had this issue several months maybe close to a year. When turning the key to start The engine cranks several seconds before firing up. It does this most every time irregardless if its a cold engine or hot. Occasionally it fires right off.. The engine has no issues when running. There is no engine warning light or codes using a obd scan tool

To date I have
-replaced the battery upon finding it was marginal under a load test.
-replaced the spark plugs
-checked for and found no missing or damaged vacuum lines.

I'm hesitant to think this is an injector issue or fuel pump issue as the engine runs perfectly once it starts. I note that I do NOT hear the fuel pump kick in when I first turn the key to the 'on' position. I don't recall hearing it prior to this issue however. I have a fuel pressure tester but have not yet used it.

I was thinking this is an issue with one of the computer modules so I purchased the entire shop manual from Helm and now have the 30+ pounds of reference material. I started going through the troubleshooting guide in the manual and found reference to a 'techstream' tool. I've since looked these up and find them to be off the charts $$$$ wise..

I'm hopeful using a multimeter with a systematic approach will work in diagnosing this issue.

I found a couple past threads on here that seemed to be similar to the problem I'm having but there wasn't mention of resolution.. Has anyone had and then fixed this problem? I'd love to be able to narrow down my focus to figure this out. Thanks

[Geoff Peace]

I have an '08 liftback MT that's had this issue several months maybe close to a year. When turning the key to start The engine cranks several seconds before firing up. It does this most every time irregardless if its a cold engine or hot. Occasionally it fires right off.. The engine has no issues when running. There is no engine warning light or codes using a obd scan tool

To date I have
-replaced the battery upon finding it was marginal under a load test.
-replaced the spark plugs
-checked for and found no missing or damaged vacuum lines.

I'm hesitant to think this is an injector issue or fuel pump issue as the engine runs perfectly once it starts. I note that I do NOT hear the fuel pump kick in when I first turn the key to the 'on' position. I don't recall hearing it prior to this issue however. I have a fuel pressure tester but have not yet used it.

I was thinking this is an issue with one of the computer modules so I purchased the entire shop manual from Helm and now have the 30+ pounds of reference material. I started going through the troubleshooting guide in the manual and found reference to a 'techstream' tool. I've since looked these up and find them to be off the charts $$$$ wise..

I'm hopeful using a multimeter with a systematic approach will work in diagnosing this issue.

I found a couple past threads on here that seemed to be similar to the problem I'm having but there wasn't mention of resolution.. Has anyone had and then fixed this problem? I'd love to be able to narrow down my focus to figure this out. ThanksThere are several possibilities, the first step is to read the fault codes, that should give you a lead.
Regards Geoff Peace.

[linny]

There are no fault codes found by an OBD reader.

[macz100]

i have an '09 3door AT , 71K miles . bought new , no issues since new , 2 weeks ago i started having similar problems as LINNY. replaced battery,spark plugs, checked for loose hoses , OBD11 with NO fault codes , runs great once it starts.
To be more specific it sounds as if timing is too advanced and will crank and almost stop or rotate in reverse and ping loudly. i have to rotate key to stop the engine . when i restart the engine with slightly longer cranking , the engine always starts fine.
i feel there is something wrong but cannot pinpoint the cause , any suggestions.???

[UberSilver]

My 08 once took 2~3 seconds to start, but never did that again.

[Geoff Peace]

There are no fault codes found by an OBD reader. No fault codes would suggest that either the starter is not cranking the engine fast enough. Since you have fitted a new battery, check all the battery connections, particularly the earth to the engine and body. If the engine must crank fast enough for the crankshaft position sensor to send a signal to the ECU to switch on the fuel pump. A faulty starter motor could also cause this, as could a faulty fuel pump relay. These items need testing.
Regards Geoff Peace.

[Flipper_1938]

Sounds like the fuel system is losing pressure when the car is off (fuel draining out of the lines).

If so, it is either an external fuel leak (gas on the ground) or an internal fuel leak (gas leaking past an injector into the motor or at the fuel pump's pressure regulator...gas draining back into the tank).

If it runs fine when running, my guess is that it is a small leak at the pressure regulator (small debris on check ball seat).

As long as it is not leaking gas on the ground, I would drive it as is. The OEM pump is probably better than the replacement part that they would use.

[linny]

Thanks Geoff and Flipper. The battery connections are good and the starter cranks the engine at a normal speed it just takes several seconds before the engine starts up. I have noticed no leaks of fuel but have occasionally smelled gas after fueling as I assume is normal. I will go through the procedure for checking the pressure regulator. I still plan on hooking my fuel pressure gauge up too. I wish there was a schreider valve on the fuel bar for this..
This weekend I went through the ECM and EFI wiring harness under the hood with my multimeter. I did find three resistance values that were questionable. The shop manual didn't make perfect sense to me on these tests however as it stated one value then an opposite value with a charge in the circuit. I plan on studying the manual as there are abbreviations and code galore that quickly gets me lost!! I plan on re-doing these checks.
This is going to take me a while. The number of circuits in these cars is mind numbing!
I can see where a 'techstream' would be really nice.
Thanks again. I'll update as I check more and appreciate others experience and advice.

[linny]

I'll check values on the crankshaft position sensor and opposite side camshaft sensor too. It would surely be nice to find a little sensor as the problem!

[Sir A.Y. Atoyot]

Sounds exactly like the symptoms my old car suffered - turned out to be the crank sensor working intermittently and not putting out a strong enough signal. That car was a Pontiac, but the symptoms sound just the same.

[racerb]

My 2010 Yaris does this from time to time also, but it never happen 2 or more times in a row. It seems to do it when the car has been driven for a while then left sitting for just a few minutes before re-starting. Hasn't done it in a while and didn't do it at all at the Auto-X this weekend.

racerb :iono:

[ciscobear]

Is it like this? http://youtu.be/w1vJ-WFDtDo

[linny]

Cisco, it is just like that!

Early on it was intermittent. Now it's rare to fire right off.

[linny]

Sir AY, I plan on testing the crank sensor. I hope to find it out of spec. That would be an easy swap.

[ciscobear]

Ctscott pointed me in the direction of the fuel pump but the car isn't mine so all I could do was recommend. The owner changed gas to our local Rubis and says she hasn't had the problem since, I am not sure what to make of it really. I was thinking along the lines of a sensor as well.

[Flipper_1938]

Ctscott pointed me in the direction of the fuel pump but the car isn't mine so all I could do was recommend. The owner changed gas to our local Rubis and says she hasn't had the problem since, I am not sure what to make of it really. I was thinking along the lines of a sensor as well.

It makes sense to me. The new gas may have a detergent in it. It may have cleaned the injectors or fuel pump regulator...or whatever wasn't sealing off.

[harda toenail]

Mine sometimes does that if I immediately turn it off then back on again. Not every time but that causes it. It always starts though, just takes longer. My fz6r motorcycle did that same thing.

[Sir A.Y. Atoyot]

When my old car was doing this, it drove me nuts - generally happened only when the car was warm - when it was dead cold it always started. When it did run, it ran perfectly. I heard the gamut of opinions from various "experts" - everyone seemed to think it must be a fuel system problem or something in the computer. The solution was to finally break down and take it to a good garage. The mechanic there had an diagnostic analyzer that grabbed the code for the crank sensor right away. Once the crank sensor was changed, no more trouble. By that time, though, I was so sick of the car that I sent it to the crusher in return for a $2000 contribution to my Yaris purchase (govt program).

[linny]

I pulled and checked resistance on both the cam and crank position sensors and find the resistance to be within spec. Upon visual inspection I found that the metal end of the crank sensor has a bit of wobble from the plastic part of the sensor. I don't know if this is normal. The cam sensor metal end was tight to the plastic part..

I also find that I have a bit of an oil leak somewhere around the sensor as the plastic body of the sensor had a good amount of crud and oil that I wiped away before removing it.
Does anyone know if there should be discernible movement of the metal end of these sensors to the rest of the body?

[jaimico]

Hey guys I have to comment this, I have a 2008 yaris advance, with 150,000 km, and I used to have that problem from time to time, only when the car was starting cold, like first thing in the morning, or after the engine was cold, but after that it did started at first tray.

The battery is ok, all cables too, the starter was check, and I just replace the spark plugs with oem ones, and now it got worst, takes a bit longer every morning to start.

So I´m also looking for an answer for this, but no one so far

[ivansky]

I am a master technician. There are two things can cause the long crank problem. One is the idle air control valve, the other is the check valve in the fuel pump.
To check for the idle air control valve, you will need to start the engine cold in the morning. Crank the car while you put your foot on the gas pedal just enough to open the throttle a tiny little bit. See if your car starts right away.
To check for the fuel pump check valve, start the engine cold. Turn the key on for 3 seconds and then off, then turn back on right away then off. Repeat this steps for 3 times, then start the car normally. if the problem goes away, then thefuel pump check valve is leaking.

[jaimico]

I´ll keep you posted.

[linny]

Thanks ivansky! These are easy checks. I have tried a similar procedure to your fuel pump check valve test by turning the ignition on and off several times before cranking but I didn't pause as you stated. I'll try this tomorrow am.

[jaimico]

I try that one this morning, but it did not pause, so I´ll be trying the first one later today when and leaving from work.

[vostorga]

Thanks ivansky! These are easy checks. I have tried a similar procedure to your fuel pump check valve test by turning the ignition on and off several times before cranking but I didn't pause as you stated. I'll try this tomorrow am.

Hi Linny, did you fix the issue?

I am experiencing this problem as well...

[JustPassinThru]

Some Toys seem prone to this - my 96 Tercel does the same thing.

To which I say: if there's no other issues; and if the thing starts inside of ten seconds or so; and if the battery never runs down...better to leave it be.

Tearing into it will cost far more than the annoyance of no immediate start. You can crank the starter for up to a full minute before you start overheating it; and if after starting you run it more than a few minutes, you charge the battery back up.

[linny]

I am still having the problem except when the ambient temp is below zero (F).
I'm thinking my problem may be the coolant temp sensor because when it's below zero the car starts immediately. I plan to pick a new one up this week. I'll post what happens.
The test for a leaky check valve in the fuel pump made no difference nor did holding the gas pedal down a bit upon cranking.

Since my last post I did get a check engine code. It was cylinder #2 misfire. This has happened 2 times since fall. I plan to buy a new coil and swap #2 with the new one..

[linny]

Just passin, I agree with your logic. That's why I haven't done anything for months. But since it's gotten damn cold where I live and the symptom went away I think I'm close to pinning this one down..
That, and the long crank times have gotten old!!! -I'm not very patient with it any longer.

[CTScott]

Just passin, I agree with your logic. That's why I haven't done anything for months. But since it's gotten damn cold where I live and the symptom went away I think I'm close to pinning this one down..
That, and the long crank times have gotten old!!! -I'm not very patient with it any longer.

It's definitely not a normal behavior for the Yaris (I can verify this owning two 07's, two 08's and one 09). The only time I saw this behavior was on one of my 08s when the battery was on its last leg. We have seen sub zero F temps here over the past couple of weeks and even my two that have been parked outside lately have started with just the key bump.

Your lean code could also be due to a plugged injector or fouled spark plug.

[JustPassinThru]

Just passin, I agree with your logic. That's why I haven't done anything for months. But since it's gotten damn cold where I live and the symptom went away I think I'm close to pinning this one down..
That, and the long crank times have gotten old!!! -I'm not very patient with it any longer.

Is yours set up so that once you key the starter, the starter cranks (even if you release the key) until the engine starts or the key is turned to OFF?

Don't laugh - not many people know this. Higher-end Toys do this, or used to. A relative's Camray did this...a 2005. And my 2009 Yaris, surprisingly, was wired this way.

The 2009 had a premium interior package, including power windows and mirrors and remote keyless locks. Didn't have a remote starter; but if you just bumped the START position the engine would work through the start cycle.

My 2012 is not that way; but it also has manual windows and no keyless entry. I don't know how Yarises were chosen for it.

But I bring this up because you can maybe just bump the starter and let it do its thing. And if it takes eight seconds, :iono:

Try it. Turn it to start and then, don't turn it off, just LET GO the key. See if the starter stops or if it keeps cranking.

[linny]

Yes, mine does have the auto start once you bump and release the key.

One of the first things I did was to replace the battery and the plugs. I would think a dirty injector would show problems after starting. I have not done anything with the injectors. The motor runs as it always has since driving off the showroom floor. My problem is simply the extended cranking to start the engine.

[CTScott]

Yes, mine does have the auto start once you bump and release the key.

One of the first things I did was to replace the battery and the plugs. I would think a dirty injector would show problems after starting. I have not done anything with the injectors. The motor runs as it always has since driving off the showroom floor. My problem is simply the extended cranking to start the engine.

Have you by any chance measured the battery voltage before or during the starting process with your new battery?

Other than with a failing battery (or disconnected coil or injector connectors or disconnected fuel pump), the only way I have been able to induce the long crank behavior is to have air the fuel system.

[JustPassinThru]

Yes, mine does have the auto start once you bump and release the key.

One of the first things I did was to replace the battery and the plugs. I would think a dirty injector would show problems after starting. I have not done anything with the injectors. The motor runs as it always has since driving off the showroom floor. My problem is simply the extended cranking to start the engine.

Well...it's no help; but there is such a thing as the engine's "personality."

An engine, like any complex piece of equipment, is going to have various idiosyncrasies...almost to the point of personality. This isn't as common on modern engines with their electronic controls; but sometimes they do emerge.

I've had cars that would start with just a bump; cars that would start with no choke. I've had cars that ran great and were relatively new, but just didn't like starting. Once running they ran fine.

Other variations might be idling hot, hard starting when warm...you name it. Sounds like you have something out of specification buried so deep it'll take a lot of time and money to dig it out.

If you ever have it at the Toy dealer, you might want to make a point of demonstrating it. Somebody might know.

[linny]

Have you by any chance measured the battery voltage before or during the starting process with your new battery?

Other than with a failing battery (or disconnected coil or injector connectors or disconnected fuel pump), the only way I have been able to induce the long crank behavior is to have air the fuel system.

I have not measured the battery voltage of my new battery during cranking. I did test it on my load tester before installing and it tested ok.

It sure has been a mystery.

I did replace the coil on the #2 cylinder (from the DTC) Sunday morning and saw an improvement. In 8 starting cycles over three days of above zero temps the car only did the long cranking two times.. Prior to this it pretty much cranked a long time with every start unless the temp was below zero. Today its way below zero and the car fired right up upon touching the key.

I have a new coolant temp sensor coming in today. I hope to get it in by or on the weekend and will certainly post my findings.

[linny]

Well...it's no help; but there is such a thing as the engine's "personality."

An engine, like any complex piece of equipment, is going to have various idiosyncrasies...almost to the point of personality. This isn't as common on modern engines with their electronic controls; but sometimes they do emerge.

I've had cars that would start with just a bump; cars that would start with no choke. I've had cars that ran great and were relatively new, but just didn't like starting. Once running they ran fine.

Other variations might be idling hot, hard starting when warm...you name it. Sounds like you have something out of specification buried so deep it'll take a lot of time and money to dig it out.

If you ever have it at the Toy dealer, you might want to make a point of demonstrating it. Somebody might know.

I agree. My issue is that my car's personality changed last year. It needs a backhand. I don't like it's new personality.

I was on vacation a couple weeks ago and had a good and long conversation with a guy that's been a professional mechanic of this and other foreign makes. He steered me towards the coolant temp sensor and to replace the coil from the DTC I got a couple of times.
The coil was a hundred dollar bill but the coolant temp sensor was cheap at 30 some bucks. If this continues after these are replaced I'll re-asses the situation. I won't be out much. I'll still have the car to drive. And I've learned quite a bit. It's all good so far.

[vostorga]

As linny said, my yaris cranks from 1 to 4 seconds before starting up. This happens only after the engine had been shut down for a while, no matters if it's cold or hot outside.
If I shut the engine off and start it again after hearing the issue, the motor starts up fine!

I've done the following:
* Replaced spark plugs
* Replaced battery (It was near its lifetime)
* Replaced Air filter
* Dropped some Fuel System Cleaner to the tank (one of those that gas stations sell)

Note: No check engine led is on nor any issue while motor is running
Note2: I haven't heard the fuel pump engaging for a long time, may be this is the real issue.
Note3: I've got Techstream, if you have any suggestion about what to look for, please tell me. I will do my own search.

[linny]

You may want to try the procedures ivansky told me to try for the idle air control valve and the fuel pump check valve.

I really can't give an update on my issue. I did replace the coolant temp sensor a couple weeks ago. I have NOT had my issue since BUT it's still extremely cold where I live.. The test for me will be when/IF it ever warms up!!

[linny]

Sorry to bring up an old thread but want to give the final word as my issue has finally been resolved!!
Once it warmed back up where I live the extended cranking came back--the coolant temp sensor was for not..
I then checked fuel pressure and found it within spec.
I got some toyota codes from my innova 3160 on misfires, MAS rich,MAS lean, etc..

I finally gave up and brought it to our local dealer where they put it on their techstream or whatever you call the toyota scan computer.
They found that my injector #2 was leaking and causing a rich start.
They told me this was a common issue they've seen with the yaris and with the corolla.

So I spent a hundred some bucks on this education. Right now I feel pretty good about it. Maybe I'd have figured it out myself if I would have pulled the injector and manually cleaned and tested it..IDK.
Because I never noticed ANY performance issues in driving and at idle I really didn't give much thought to the injector. Live and learn then share!!

[Lets Go Giants]

I have a 2008 yaris and it's not turning over. It sounds like it wants to start but won't turn. The car broke down on the freeway and my thought was it was the fuel pump which i replaced. The car still wont start, I am looking for the location of the fuel pump relay but can not find it anywhere. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[CTScott]

I have a 2008 yaris and it's not turning over. It sounds like it wants to start but won't turn. The car broke down on the freeway and my thought was it was the fuel pump which i replaced. The car still wont start, I am looking for the location of the fuel pump relay but can not find it anywhere. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

The fuel pump relay is integrated into the body ECU (which is the under dash fuse box assembly). If you do some searching on here you'll find a thread where I give instructions on how to test its output and bypass it if it is bad.

If it is not turning over, then the fuel pump is not the issue. If it cranks by doesn't start then it could be.