Shifting (A/T)

[daq421]

I've found that the little Yaris responds very well to "shifting" during back road runs. Using the auto trans more like a stick, working up and down the gears as I accelerate and decelerate, both into and out of turns. It responds so well I find myself wondering if it's designed to be run that way..

Any thoughts?
-Peter

[Spades]

I haven't had experience with the automatic transmission used in the Yaris, but if it is like most auto trans I have had experience with, constantly shifting your auto trans like it is a manual generally leads to transmission failure sooner than leaving it in gear would.

I have been told not to do this by many people MUCH smarter than myself, and I have listened to their advice and have seen a couple cases where transmissions went bad at 30k miles from people using them like a manual gearbox.

To sum it all up, if you wanted a manual you shouldn't have bought a auto. The automatic transmission in your car was designed to shift at the right time to increase longevity of both the engine and transmission. From the performance side of it, I have yet to see a auto car run quicker times when shifted manual instead of leaving it in drive...its usually 1 second slower in the quarter mile by pretending your slushbox was a gearbox.

[KSIbucky]

I haven't had experience with the automatic transmission used in the Yaris, but if it is like most auto trans I have had experience with, constantly shifting your auto trans like it is a manual generally leads to transmission failure sooner than leaving it in gear would.

I have been told not to do this by many people MUCH smarter than myself, and I have listened to their advice and have seen a couple cases where transmissions went bad at 30k miles from people using them like a manual gearbox.

To sum it all up, if you wanted a manual you shouldn't have bought a auto. The automatic transmission in your car was designed to shift at the right time to increase longevity of both the engine and transmission. From the performance side of it, I have yet to see a auto car run quicker times when shifted manual instead of leaving it in drive...its usually 1 second slower in the quarter mile by pretending your slushbox was a gearbox.



I agree not a good idea

[St_G]

I don't see much point in playing fake manual on acceleration, but I also don't see much problem in forcing a downshift for a turn...

[Spades]

St G, I won't tell you how to drive your car. I am just saying I have seen bad things happen when people do this, simply my opinion. Perhaps we have a transmission guru on this site who will state if this is bad to the transmission or not.

I do know that it is a waste of time, as when you are driving an automatic properly through corners, there is no need to manually shift, and you actually get in and out of corners quicker...brake hard just up to the corner, then mash your foot to the floor and use the front wheels to pull the car around the corner...pretty simple.

Trying to shift it manually just slows the process down all in the name of feeling like a speedracer.

[Spades]

I am perhaps wrong on this, but my understanding of auto transmissions leads me to belive the first thing to go out on a auto trans for manually shifting it on the fly would be the Torque Converter or the "Sun Gear". The "sun gear" as it was explained to me, is the main gear behind the torque converter. If the gear looses teeth due to abuse (such as shifting it down gears or by dropping it from drive to reverse without letting the car come to a stop first) the teeth will go through your transmission and rip it apart.

On manual vehicles you have a clutch, this is differant than a torque converter. The clutch has the same job, but works differantly. By downshifting gears on a manual, you SHOULD step on the gas to bring the RPM's up to the speed you are traveling. Failure to do this will result in premature clutch failure. The torque converter is responsible for having to go between the speed you are traveling and the RPM's of the engine. This creates enormous amounts of strain on your torque converter, and unlike a $500 clutch, if the torque converter and sungear go bye-bye, you may loose the automatic transmission with it, and thats more like $2k+.

As I said, I may be talking out of my ass, that is just what I know. Again, play with your auto trans at your own risk kiddies.

[rockchops]

I am perhaps wrong on this, but my understanding of auto transmissions leads me to belive the first thing to go out on a auto trans for manually shifting it on the fly would be the Torque Converter or the "Sun Gear". The "sun gear" as it was explained to me, is the main gear behind the torque converter. If the gear looses teeth due to abuse (such as shifting it down gears or by dropping it from drive to reverse without letting the car come to a stop first) the teeth will go through your transmission and rip it apar...

Very sound advice IMO, Spades. I've been told in the past that I have a bad habbit of shifting A/T cars into drive prematurely, after backing out of the driveway. Now it seems that there is some merit to these claims from my folks.

[daq421]

I don't see much point in playing fake manual on acceleration, but I also don't see much problem in forcing a downshift for a turn...

It's almost entirely coming into corners, I "downshift" to gain the right rev's to pull through a turn. I'm not shifting up from lights for "dragging" or anything..

Heck, it's just that I noticed the little car seems to handle it well...
-Pter

[daq421]

I do know that it is a waste of time, as when you are driving an automatic properly through corners, there is no need to manually shift, and you actually get in and out of corners quicker...brake hard just up to the corner, then mash your foot to the floor and use the front wheels to pull the car around the corner...pretty simple.

Trying to shift it manually just slows the process down all in the name of feeling like a speedracer.


Hmmm, the fly by wire throttle response is not accurate enough for "peddle mashing" into a turnm as you cannot count on power arriving when you need it. Dropping into 3rd (or 2nd from 3rd depending upon your traveling speed) as you enter a turn brings up the RPM's and gives a much more controlled power band.

-Peter

[Spades]

I am not saying it doesn't feel like you are more in control, I am just saying your feelings are lying to you and that it is also actually hard on your transmission, read my above post.

[St_G]

This is somewhat tangential to the meat of the issue here, but has anyone else noticed that car manufacturers sometimes actually present driver's doing exactly this in their commercials? I know I saw it in a Mazda commercial recently, for (iirc) the CR-7.

[daq421]

I am not saying it doesn't feel like you are more in control, I am just saying your feelings are lying to you and that it is also actually hard on your transmission, read my above post.


Ok.. I'm sure the act of manually downshifting the car is harder on it, in this we agree but I find the "...I am just saying your feelings are lying to you..." statement very odd, as there is nothing I can say in response that does not sound defensive. So, I'll just say thanks for the input, I appreciate it. I guess I'll be less inclined to downshift into corners, unless I really feel it's required.

Thanks all
-Peter

[St_G]

Related question: Is there something special about the construction of automatic transmissions with sequential-manual options -- the paddle shifters in the Fit, VW's tiptronic, BMW's SMT... -- that protects against the wear/damage you warn of?

It may be worth noting, that in a quick google search, I don't see any (purported) professional articles suggesting much danger in the practice. I'm not claiming that's the final word on the issue. But that's what I'm finding so far.

[Razr]

I have been manually changing auto boxes for 15 years, and have *never* had even an inkling that a problem was developing. From my experience this talk of it damaging your box is a total urban myth. Maybe we should get Mythbusters onto it LOL!

That said, pre-empting a downshift for a hill or turn has a marked improvement in acceleration and vehicle control. Don't let anecdotal reports stating it won't change anything fool you. It fucking works, period.

[Spades]

hrm, ok, I guess I was talking out of my ass...however, just your saying you have done it for 15 years doesn't make me belive in the slightest that it isn't hard on automatic transmissions, at least not untill you have proof contradicting my explanation.

The whole "it has never happened to me so it must not be a problem" argument doesn't make me belive that it isn't hard on automatic transmissions.

I suggest you go talk to some gentamen that work at transmission repair shops and get their opinions on this, and maybe I will find that the people I have talked to and what I have personally experienced are completely wrong or coincedental.

EDIT: and supposing that I am wrong, and that the feeling of control you are experiencing is actually the improvement you speak of, it all goes back to the original question, why did you buy a auto in the first place? If the control is so much better, then why buy a auto to begin with? I still dont belive it helps cornering. I have never seen any professional driver that were cornering for speed manually downshift a auto trans, again, this is just what I have seen.

[Razr]

hrm, ok, I guess I was talking out of my ass...however, just your saying you have done it for 15 years doesn't make me belive in the slightest that it isn't hard on automatic transmissions, at least not untill you have proof contradicting my explanation.

The whole "it has never happened to me so it must not be a problem" argument doesn't make me belive that it isn't hard on automatic transmissions.

I suggest you go talk to some gentamen that work at transmission repair shops and get their opinions on this, and maybe I will find that the people I have talked to and what I have personally experienced are completely wrong or coincedental.

EDIT: and supposing that I am wrong, and that the feeling of control you are experiencing is actually the improvement you speak of, it all goes back to the original question, why did you buy a auto in the first place? If the control is so much better, then why buy a auto to begin with? I still dont belive it helps cornering. I have never seen any professional driver that were cornering for speed manually downshift a auto trans, again, this is just what I have seen.

You know, the whole "some guy told me so" argument doesn't wash either unfortunately.

I suggest you take a little of your own advice, and front up with some hard facts to support your position, before you ask that of me. My opinion is worth the same as yours here, and an opinion is all you're providing.

Surely if the practice of manually downshifting an automatic transmission is in fact as detrimental to your gearbox as you suggest, there will be numerous, independant online sources you could quote here, and undoubtedly there'd also be a warning and waranty disclaimer in your vehicle handbook against such practices. Go find them, link/display them here, and I will humbly apologise to the OP and yourself for providing ill-conceived advice.

As for why *I* bought an auto, it's actually very simple: I'm not the only one that drives the car. Think a little further than your own little sphere before making assumptions about others and their decisions.

You've never seen a professional driver downshift for a corner? You're kidding right?

I hope you realize that the practice of downshifting has nothing to do with auto vs. manual gearboxes, it's all about selecting a gear ratio that's best suited to what's about to happen on the road. Are you telling me that if you're approaching a hill, or about to overtake, or anything else that requires additional acceleration that the current gear ratio couldn't provide you with effeciently, that you don't change down gears? Must be interesting driving a stick shift in 5th gear all the time LOL.

The point is that all auto boxes always lag on downshifts, and pre-emptive downshifts can quite literally save you a second or more. One second is a heck of a lot of time at 60mph. It can make a huge difference.

[Razr]

OK, Im reading the owner's manual and am seeing Toyota's recommendations on manual downshifting of the auto transmission.

I've attached it to save you the time of getting it out of your car.

Have a read of pages 112 and 113 (6 and 7 respectively in the PDF). 'Nuff said? :wink:

[[FR] Sébastien Loeb]

AUTO TRAN = NO NEED TO MANUALLY SHIFT

MAUNAL TRAN = NEED TO MANUALLY SHIFT

CLEAR ENOUGH?

[eTiMaGo]

The way I understand it...

Manual shifting of an auto transmission is not a problem in theory. In fact, it should not cause any problems, most of the basic "sequential" boxes are just that, automatics with gear change overrides. (BMW's SMG and fancier sequentials are basically an automated manual gearbox, but I digress).

As with any other mechanical component, if you use it within its normal parameters, there should be no problem shifting an A/T. But, just like with anything else, problems arise when you abuse these normal operation parmeters. Auto transmissions are inherently less robust than manuals, coming in to a corner at speed and using ONLY the gearbox's downshift to slow yourself down is probably not a good idea.

Just like the manual Razr posted up above mentions, the main problem is overheating of the transmission.

So, the Cliff's Notes: A/T shifting? Not too much to worry about as long as you don't thrash the thing or force it to run in low gears excessively. Just like anything "fun" you can do with your car, there's the chance of it reducing the overall life of the vehicle.

[daq421]

OK, Im reading the owner's manual and am seeing Toyota's recommendations on manual downshifting of the auto transmission.

I've attached it to save you the time of getting it out of your car.

Have a read of pages 112 and 113 (6 and 7 respectively in the PDF). 'Nuff said? :wink:

Which address exactly what I've been doing... My only comment was that the little car seems to respond very well to the tactic while engaged in spirited driving.

Thanks
-Peter

[Pavel Olavich]

I haven't had experience with the automatic transmission used in the Yaris, but if it is like most auto trans I have had experience with, constantly shifting your auto trans like it is a manual generally leads to transmission failure sooner than leaving it in gear would.

I have been told not to do this by many people MUCH smarter than myself, and I have listened to their advice and have seen a couple cases where transmissions went bad at 30k miles from people using them like a manual gearbox.

To sum it all up, if you wanted a manual you shouldn't have bought a auto. The automatic transmission in your car was designed to shift at the right time to increase longevity of both the engine and transmission. From the performance side of it, I have yet to see a auto car run quicker times when shifted manual instead of leaving it in drive...its usually 1 second slower in the quarter mile by pretending your slushbox was a gearbox.

Tell this to Mitusbishi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda, Chyrsler, Nissan and even Toyota, all makes that provide models with "manually" siftable auto-transmissions, using paddles, and slide-slap selectors, etc.

Even in the Toyota Yaris manual for A/T, Toyota writes that up/down shifting the A/T is fine, they include this in our manuals for A/T, so long as it is done with in speed/gear constraints.

"Manually" shifting A/T's, when done right, will not lower the longevity of an A/T. However if done wrong, and over time, it could cause tranny failure in under 50,000 miles, or less, so if done right, no worries....if done wrong, you might have a huge tranny repair bill on your hands.

WASTE OF TIME? Not really. If done right downshifting/upshifting an A/T can be VERY beneficial, like coming into a turn with the desire to keep the rev's up, just to name one of MANY reasons to shift an A/T manually....doing this is very beneficial to sport driving, and even zipping around the highways, through traffic, etc...

[Pavel Olavich]

Sébastien Loeb;68787']AUTO TRAN = NO NEED TO MANUALLY SHIFT

MAUNAL TRAN = NEED TO MANUALLY SHIFT

CLEAR ENOUGH?

SORRY FRIEND, BUT YOUR RESPONSE IS SHOWING YOUR PROFOUND IGNORANCE OF DRIVING AN A/T....but I cut you slack, because A/T in Europe is not often used, and therefore people there really don't understanding manual shifting of A/T cars....but here in the states, we do....many of us do this...it can save on brakes, because manually shifting an A/T means one can use the engine as a brake, etc....

[Yaris Revenge]

From my own (very) limited experience, auto transmissions with the manual override (+/- shifter), SUCK. I've driven 2 different cars with this feature, and both of them took entirely to long to accomplish the task. I can't stand that delay between hitting the lever and the actual gearshift... drives me nuts, and useless for a sporty driving style. Plain old automatic shifting seems quicker.

And actually Pavel, he's very correct. All he said was manual, need to shift (obviously), and auto, no need, which is also true. What kind of weird ass trannys (don't get all excited now) do you play with over there that manuals DON'T have to be shifted and autos do? :laugh:

~YR

[Pavel Olavich]

From my own (very) limited experience, auto transmissions with the manual override (+/- shifter), SUCK. I've driven 2 different cars with this feature, and both of them took entirely to long to accomplish the task. I can't stand that delay between hitting the lever and the actual gearshift... drives me nuts, and useless for a sporty driving style. Plain old automatic shifting seems quicker.

And actually Pavel, he's very correct. All he said was manual, need to shift (obviously), and auto, no need, which is also true. What kind of weird ass trannys (don't get all excited now) do you play with over there that manuals DON'T have to be shifted and autos do? :laugh:

~YR


When downshifting manually an A/T, bleeping the gas as you downshift will get it in gear RIGHT NOW! Manually down/up shifting an A/T is not as simple as moving the gear selector....you need to use your gas pedel too, depending....

[Yaris Revenge]

It IS that simple when it's built in. Hit "+", it upshifts, hit "-", and it downshifts. No gas adjustments are necessary. I believe you're talking about a standard auto, while I'm talking about the "manu-matics".

~YR

[Pavel Olavich]

It IS that simple when it's built in. Hit "+", it upshifts, hit "-", and it downshifts. No gas adjustments are necessary. I believe you're talking about a standard auto, while I'm talking about the "manu-matics".

~YR

Think about it, when you downshift a manual transmision, one most often bleep the gas to rev-match, to make for a smooth downshift...the same is for A/T, regardless of the A/T type....

Think about this too: Most people that drive manual trannys don't know how to drive them properly. One more thing: Most people that manually shift an A/T don't know how to do it properly either.

For an A/T, when you hit the + or - selector, the tranny will not necessarily shift the gear UNLESS the tranny revs and the engine revs are happy with each other....this is the same thing when down shifting a manual...to save the clutch, to keep it smooth.

The fact that the A/T's that allow + and - manual gear changes is not responsive is the driver's fault, his ignorance of how to up/down shift an A/T properly...and not the car's fault.

[Spades]

Ok fine. I am talking out of my ass. You are right I am wrong. I still dont belive you. Why? Because the first car I had was a automatic transmission, and I was 16 and thought I was speed racer and shifted it like it was a manual. 30k miles later it lost second gear from the teeth comming off the sun gear. What I explained about the sun gear was exactly what happened to my car. So, I asked several transmission shops what would have caused this and they told me manually shifting the car is what did it.

The same thing has happened to two other people I know. I will not debate this subject any longer. If you guys want to yell and holler at me, by all means do it, I was just trying to save you from a mistake I made when I was young and foolish. By all means, if you are going to be assholes, please, F--k up your cars, and IF something does happen to your transmissions, fair warning, I am going to laugh my ass off.

P.S. in that manual you posted for me to look at, did you notice that it says never to shift gears up with your foot on the gas pedal? Wow, so the manufacturer says that you aren't supposed to do that...so, in taking your foot off the gas pedal so you can shift, you are telling me it is faster to shift in a corner than letting the slusbox shift on its own? Nice.

[Pavel Olavich]

Ok fine. I am talking out of my ass. You are right I am wrong. I still dont belive you. Why? Because the first car I had was a automatic transmission, and I was 16 and thought I was speed racer and shifted it like it was a manual. 30k miles later it lost second gear from the teeth comming off the sun gear. What I explained about the sun gear was exactly what happened to my car. So, I asked several transmission shops what would have caused this and they told me manually shifting the car is what did it.

The same thing has happened to two other people I know. I will not debate this subject any longer. If you guys want to yell and holler at me, by all means do it, I was just trying to save you from a mistake I made when I was young and foolish. By all means, if you are going to be assholes, please, F--k up your cars, and IF something does happen to your transmissions, fair warning, I am going to laugh my ass off.

P.S. in that manual you posted for me to look at, did you notice that it says never to shift gears up with your foot on the gas pedal? Wow, so the manufacturer says that you aren't supposed to do that...so, in taking your foot off the gas pedal so you can shift, you are telling me it is faster to shift in a corner than letting the slusbox shift on its own? Nice.


So then at age 16 you blame the car, and hold yourself blamless for driver error?

Where is the personal responsability? Just admit it, your car probably failed because you were a 16 year old newbie that didn't know shit yet.

There are millions that manually shift their A/T's and have no issues with their A/T's 100,000+ miles later.

As for pressing the gas pedel during shifts, IT IS FOR DOWNSHIFTING, not UP shifting...I thought I made that clear...and gassing it during down shifting does NO harm to the A/T tranny....doing so during upshift can be bad however.

You keep twisting my words....coming into a corner, manually downshift the A/T while you gas it, to get it to drop NOW, and keep the rev's up as you make the corner....this is how pros drive AT's...this is nothing new, and this is the proper way to enter a corner with an AT....why do you think car makers allow the selectors to be manually placed in 3, 2, 1? Not just for getting out of snowy conditions...there are other reasons....stop twisting my words and learn ;-)

[daq421]

Ok fine. I am talking out of my ass. You are right I am wrong. I still dont belive you. Why? Because the first car I had was a automatic transmission, and I was 16 and thought I was speed racer and shifted it like it was a manual. 30k miles later it lost second gear from the teeth comming off the sun gear. What I explained about the sun gear was exactly what happened to my car. So, I asked several transmission shops what would have caused this and they told me manually shifting the car is what did it.

The same thing has happened to two other people I know. I will not debate this subject any longer. If you guys want to yell and holler at me, by all means do it, I was just trying to save you from a mistake I made when I was young and foolish. By all means, if you are going to be assholes, please, F--k up your cars, and IF something does happen to your transmissions, fair warning, I am going to laugh my ass off.


P.S. in that manual you posted for me to look at, did you notice that it says never to shift gears up with your foot on the gas pedal? Wow, so the manufacturer says that you aren't supposed to do that...so, in taking your foot off the gas pedal so you can shift, you are telling me it is faster to shift in a corner than letting the slusbox shift on its own? Nice.

You know, I tried to be cool about your hostile and generally crappy attitude.. but thats over now.. You're not bringing anything to the discussion, only flatly stating your opinion as truth and when thats challanged getting all pissy. No one is yelling and hollering except you. So, feel free to leave all of us "assholes" trying to talk about this to it and find another thread to get all butt hurt over. Mmmmmm'k? thanks.
Oh and by the way, So you killed a A/T when you were 16.. I'm guessing that was no more than 5 years ago. Further you neglect to share what type of car it was, the condition, and whether you only down shifted into turns. All this tells me is a another teenager killed a car.. Whoopie, name me 2 teens that did not kill at least one car in some way or another as they learned to drive, thats why it's called "learning".

-Peter

[St_G]

There's no need for the discussion to eb this heated. Does anyone have any outside (i.e., non-message board) voices on the subject.

These were the main two I could find:

http://www.startribune.com/131/story/163720.html

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/030806.htm

Several other message board threads too, but I think we've got enough of those sorts of voices going already, though they seemed to fall more on the "not causing any harm unless you do something really stupid" and "almost impossible to do something really stupid, because of rev limiters" variety than anything else.

Other links (especially those dealing less with engine breaking and more with keeping revs up to pull through a corner) are welcome. Perhaps someone else can find more than I did.

[Pavel Olavich]

a Rev limiter is not going to help if one downshifts wrong...doing it wrong can hurt your engine over time without red lining the tack....it's fine if it is done right...done wrong over time can shorten the life of the tranny and perhaps the engine too, stressing many parts.

[Spades]

You know, I tried to be cool about your hostile and generally crappy attitude.. but thats over now.. You're not bringing anything to the discussion, only flatly stating your opinion as truth and when thats challanged getting all pissy. No one is yelling and hollering except you. So, feel free to leave all of us "assholes" trying to talk about this to it and find another thread to get all butt hurt over. Mmmmmm'k? thanks.
Oh and by the way, So you killed a A/T when you were 16.. I'm guessing that was no more than 5 years ago. Further you neglect to share what type of car it was, the condition, and whether you only down shifted into turns. All this tells me is a another teenager killed a car.. Whoopie, name me 2 teens that did not kill at least one car in some way or another as they learned to drive, thats why it's called "learning".

-Peter


wow dude. I am not getting pissy, I admitted that I was apperantly talking out of my ass.

I was 16, that was about 7 years ago, it was a brand new 3spd auto chevrolet cavalier. I downshifted into turns, and also used the 1-2-D method when accelerating. So yes, I did learn. I learned not to do that, and I tried sharing my personal experience here.

Spare me your high and mighty attitude about how I am the one that is hostile....your first reply to this thread you used the F word. I responded after several replies of yours that I was wrong, that you were right, and that if your transmission took a dump on you that I would laugh, and I will laugh if I see a post about your transmission slipping. So, admitting that you are right and I am wrong to you, is my butt hurting?

I offered my opinion to this debate and all you could do is say "that it has never happened to you" and then get hostile when I point out my reasons for thinking this is hard on transmissions.

Also, read that manual that was posted in PDF form, it says "Never put your foot on the accelorator pedal while shifting"...its the thing noted by the little caution sign...thats what I was refering to...I mean, you guys are the ones pointing stuff out in the manual, I was just reading what it said.

So, to recap, I am not pissy, I have shared with you the information about my car, I have not yelled or hollered yet, and you need to read the manuals that you post that are a attempt to prove me wrong. Mmmmmm'k? thanks.

[deebrown]

Is the yaris automatic transmission an "autostick"? Or am I completely way off?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostick#Vehicles_with_Autostick

[daq421]

wow dude. I am not getting pissy, I admitted that I was apperantly talking out of my ass.

I was 16, that was about 7 years ago, it was a brand new 3spd auto chevrolet cavalier. I downshifted into turns, and also used the 1-2-D method when accelerating. So yes, I did learn. I learned not to do that, and I tried sharing my personal experience here.

Spare me your high and mighty attitude about how I am the one that is hostile....your first reply to this thread you used the F word. I responded after several replies of yours that I was wrong, that you were right, and that if your transmission took a dump on you that I would laugh, and I will laugh if I see a post about your transmission slipping. So, admitting that you are right and I am wrong to you, is my butt hurting?

I offered my opinion to this debate and all you could do is say "that it has never happened to you" and then get hostile when I point out my reasons for thinking this is hard on transmissions.

Also, read that manual that was posted in PDF form, it says "Never put your foot on the accelorator pedal while shifting"...its the thing noted by the little caution sign...thats what I was refering to...I mean, you guys are the ones pointing stuff out in the manual, I was just reading what it said.

So, to recap, I am not pissy, I have shared with you the information about my car, I have not yelled or hollered yet, and you need to read the manuals that you post that are a attempt to prove me wrong. Mmmmmm'k? thanks.


You have confused me with at least two other posters.. I started the thread but I've not used the f-word, I did not post the Manual, and saying you'll be happy if one of our cars breaks down is just plain hostile. Further, if any of your responses were in any way really an acknowledgment of error.. well then I'm sorry.. But it sure does not read that way, I've read them a number of times and every single read through they come off as sarcastic at best.

-Peter

[BMGYaris]

OK, Im reading the owner's manual and am seeing Toyota's recommendations on manual downshifting of the auto transmission.

I've attached it to save you the time of getting it out of your car.

Have a read of pages 112 and 113 (6 and 7 respectively in the PDF). 'Nuff said? :wink:

"Watch the tachometer to keep
engine rpm from going into the red
zone."

This was my favorite part, taken from the warning in the automatic section. Tell me, HOW THE FUCK can they say that when our cars don't come with tachometers? makes me want to do something about it.

[Spades]

You have confused me with at least two other posters.. I started the thread but I've not used the f-word, I did not post the Manual, and saying you'll be happy if one of our cars breaks down is just plain hostile. Further, if any of your responses were in any way really an acknowledgment of error.. well then I'm sorry.. But it sure does not read that way, I've read them a number of times and every single read through they come off as sarcastic at best.

-Peter

Apologetic, sarcastic, close enough. I don't know that I would be happy that someones car broke down, I just said I would laugh if your car broke down for reasons mentioned above after I was greeted by such criticism.

I apperantly don't know what I am talking about, we will leave it at that. So far no one has given me a explanation about how my theory(about the sun gear failing from stress that downshifting causes) is wrong. All I have heard are people saying that I am wrong...I was just hoping for a post that someone would actually tell me WHY I am wrong, other than "I did it for years with no problem".

I dunno, this is turning into a flamefest, so this is my last post. My intent was not to anger anyone, simply to explain what I belive to be true...not a opinion, just the facts that were given to me by transmission shops. My input is not welcome, so, I will leave you with what I posted and call it good.

P.S. you can tell you down shifted to far if the engine RPM's go through the roof and the engine starts shutting on and off really quick...sounds something like "Vroom...slam...vrooom....slam" you will hear it pop back and forth really fast and loose power, it can sometimes cause the car to shudder...thats the computer shutting off the fuel or ignition to keep the engine from spinning too fast...go rev limiter!

EDIT: and my responce prior to that was aimed at more than one person Dag, I should have typed out seperate responces, I was aiming it at all the flamers, not just you. I was not paying attention to who was flaming me so I just put up a general post to all the haters.

[Razr]

"Watch the tachometer to keep
engine rpm from going into the red
zone."

This was my favorite part, taken from the warning in the automatic section. Tell me, HOW THE FUCK can they say that when our cars don't come with tachometers? makes me want to do something about it.

Well, that manual is for Thailand models which all come with tachometers. You might want to check if it's worded the same in your version of the manual before you start putting fires up asses :wink:

[BMGYaris]

Well, that manual is for Thailand models which all come with tachometers. You might want to check if it's worded the same in your version of the manual before you start putting fires up asses :wink:


yea, that would be embarressing, but I remember I read it when I first got the car and im pretty sure it is worded the same, i just didnt know much back then...and now im thinking they can't say that if it doesnt apply to our cars. Honestly, I think they fucked up the american 3door transmissions and so they decided to take it out..but thats just my opinion :p

[daq421]

"Watch the tachometer to keep
engine rpm from going into the red
zone."

This was my favorite part, taken from the warning in the automatic section. Tell me, HOW THE HECK can they say that when our cars don't come with tachometers? makes me want to do something about it.

Our cars do, at least mine did.. but I've got the coupe with the power package, so perhaps thats the difference?

[Yaris Revenge]

For an A/T, when you hit the + or - selector, the tranny will not necessarily shift the gear UNLESS the tranny revs and the engine revs are happy with each other....this is the same thing when down shifting a manual...to save the clutch, to keep it smooth.

The fact that the A/T's that allow + and - manual gear changes is not responsive is the driver's fault, his ignorance of how to up/down shift an A/T properly...and not the car's fault.

Pavel, you're a retard. When you hit the selector in a manumatic, the transmission shifts THEN, but with a slight lag as the internals get the gears in order. The lag has nothing to do with the rpms already being in sync, it's the same delay no matter how close or far apart they may be. The only difference is how high the engine ultimately revs once the gear change has been completed.

Please don't tell me I'm ignorant of my own car. I'm not some 15 year old highway virgin, and you're obviously not the driving superstar you want us all to believe you are. You've posted nothing but BS in every thread you've participated in, calling everyone but yourself ignorant and mistaken. Don't you have anything better to do than blow smoke up everyone's ass?

I stand by my claim that factory manumatics suck.
~YR

[Spades]

don't waste your breath...these guys may not know what the owners manual says about manually shifting a automatic(let off the gas any time you switch gears), or the inner workings of their transmission, or how it functions, but they are right, and you are wrong. I am just going to leave it at that.

I am still watching this thread hoping that someone can tell me why my explanation of what can happen (when you manually shift automatics frequently) is wrong though...so far I have just gotten hostility and "I have done it so it's ok"...maybe eventually someone that knows what they are talking about will either reafirm what I have said or blow me out of the water showing why my explanation was wrong and why I am stupid.

[PSU Yaris]

I downshift the auto tranny when i'm in a hurry, and approaching a redlight that might soon turn green. (i am either coasting, or braking when i downshift...sometimes, you dont even need the brake, due to engine braking). This way, when it does turn green, i'm already in the powerband, when its time to take off again. when i downshift, i make sure to the correct gear that corresponds with my speed, as to not redline. i think that as long as you dont downshift into the redline area (which i dont think the car will let you do), you'll be fine.

[Pavel Olavich]

Pavel, you're a retard. When you hit the selector in a manumatic, the transmission shifts THEN, but with a slight lag as the internals get the gears in order. The lag has nothing to do with the rpms already being in sync, it's the same delay no matter how close or far apart they may be. The only difference is how high the engine ultimately revs once the gear change has been completed.

Please don't tell me I'm ignorant of my own car. I'm not some 15 year old highway virgin, and you're obviously not the driving superstar you want us all to believe you are. You've posted nothing but BS in every thread you've participated in, calling everyone but yourself ignorant and mistaken. Don't you have anything better to do than blow smoke up everyone's ass?

I stand by my claim that factory manumatics suck.
~YR

You stand by your claim, even as BMW, Mercedes, Chrysler, Nissan, Honda, Lexus, Toyota, and Honda think shifting AT manually is a good thing?

It seems you're an ignorant country bumbkin and your words only prove that!

So I guess you know more then the big 15 auto makers of the world, right?

You act as though you're a 15 year old driving virgin, whose new found bravado is compensating for a very small.......:evil:

[earljail]

If you (not directed to anyone in particular) want to shift the car yourself, why not just buy a manual transmission? :)

*puts on flame hat*

[PSU Yaris]

If you (not directed to anyone in particular) want to shift the car yourself, why not just buy a manual transmission? :)

*puts on flame hat*

because sometimes automatic is better when you're talking on the cell phone, or eating, or shaving, reading the paper, etc while driving.

[Spades]

because sometimes automatic is better when you're talking on the cell phone, or eating, or shaving, reading the paper, etc while driving.

:laughabove: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAH :clap:

[daq421]

If you (not directed to anyone in particular) want to shift the car yourself, why not just buy a manual transmission? :)

*puts on flame hat*


Because sometimes we buy cars for reasons beyond our own desires.. The stick was my first choice, but...

1. I commute, a lot.. (auto is a far better tool for that application)
2. Availability, waiting for the stick (along with the body / option package I wanted) would have been a 4 (minimum) week wait.

Do I at times wish there'd been manual transmission available to me, yep.. But that was not the case.. So I make the best of it.
-Peter

[Black Yaris]

I am also baffled by those of you with auto's that want to shift them, it is just silly, and hurting your trans..... you are going to do what you are going to do.... I just don't understand why one would damage such am expensive part of your car on purpose, it is like not ever changing your oil

[yrsdrgn]

I am also baffled by those of you with auto's that want to shift them, it is just silly, and hurting your trans..... you are going to do what you are going to do.... I just don't understand why one would damage such am expensive part of your car on purpose, it is like not ever changing your oil

i only shove the stupid slushbox into 3rd gear when i go uphills and it's in low rpm in 4th gear. I also shove it into 3rd gear sometimes when going downhill. This wouldn't hurt my car badly would it?

[Yaris Revenge]

You stand by your claim, even as BMW, Mercedes, Chrysler, Nissan, Honda, Lexus, Toyota, and Honda think shifting AT manually is a good thing?

It seems you're an ignorant country bumbkin and your words only prove that!

So I guess you know more then the big 15 auto makers of the world, right?

You act as though you're a 15 year old driving virgin, whose new found bravado is compensating for a very small.......:evil:

I also stand by my belief that you're a retard. :wink:

Time and again you are confusing my comments on a manumatic with a standard automatic transmission. I have yet to make ANY comment on a standard auto tranny, yet you insist on quoting scripture from manuals about downshifting standard autos, and how it's supposed to be done.

YES YES YES, automatic transmission are meant to be downshifted manually!!! We get that. It's original purpose is for driving situations that confuse the automatic shifting (such as semi-steep inclines), or for loaded towing, but hell, if you want, downshift the sucker all you want. I don't care, and I honestly don't think it will cause any problem. I routinely kick mine out of overdrive to assist braking all the time.

Now Pavel, let me lay this out for you one more time, so you can understand what I'm saying. In a MANUMANTIC transmission there is a separate shifter area marked with a "+" and a "-". When you move the lever to this area, it forces the automatic to behave more like a manual. To upshift, hit "+", to downshift, hit "-". WHAT I SAID EARLIER was that this style of shifting is pointless for sporty driving, because there is a time lag between hitting the "+" and the actual gear change. It can be done much faster and more efficiently in a manual transmission. SO, for SPORTY driving, a MANUMATIC doesn't make much sense, because the standard auto shifting program included is faster. Granted, I would expect the ones on luxury cars and race cars to be pretty good, but the run-of-the-mill manumatics SUCK.

*whew!* Now, before you reply, read this through at least twice and dwell on it, so you don't make yourself look stupid again. This makes at least twice now you've misread a post and argued about it.

Really, to call someone a "bumpkin", shouldn't you at least be able to spell it first? :laugh: And "compensating"? Dude, we're in a Yaris forum, or haven't you noticed? :rolleyes:

Answer me this: have you even hit your 20's yet? And be honest! I'm genuinely curious.

~YR

[eTiMaGo]

You have to admit auto boxes have evolved by leaps and bounds over the years, now Lexus has an 8-speed box, and even on our lowly car, there's advanced electronics controlling the whole thing. "Manumatics" are just the natural evolution of the automatic transmission, since a computer unit can tell the gearbox when to shift, why not let the driver give some input too? All it costs is a few extra wires and buttons.

To be honest, there is some use to having a manumatic, it's a lot easier to change gears when needed (when going up a hill, or wanting maximum acceleration, etc), at the press of a button rather than the chance of moving the gearstick down an extra notch by accident. It doesn't make the shifting any faster, there'll always be a lag, and to be honest, the main reason for the whole system is that it looks good and makes people think they're driving a Ferrari or F1 car. And a car that makes its driver feel cool is a car that gets sold.

In a car of our class, auto boxes in any shape and size are not meant for serious sports driving, period. They're all about ease of use, so that pretty much anybody can drive without needing the foot-hand coordination to change gears. And like PSU Yaris said, it lets you concentrate on more important things when you take that boring commute... :laugh: And what is the result of having a system anyone can drive? More cars are sold.

It does not mean you can't have some fun with it, though! One time, with a friend, we rented a cheapass auto car and put it through the paces, so to speak. Twisty hilly roads, large expanses of packed dirt, etc. I learned a lot from it. You can manually downshift and get the same kind of results as with a manual gearbox, but you gotta move the lever a lot earlier than you think you want to. You can control the whole thing to shift when you want to, how you want to, but your timing has to be completely different to a manual. It can be done, but it just feels weird... And it most likely does shorten the lifespan of the gearbox... What did we care? We were young and dumb and eager to learn, and it wasn't even our car anyway :biggrin:

The highlighted parts represent the way of thinking of the car companies, I think... Nowadays it doesn't really matter what is better, just what sells better. Sad but true.

[Yaris Revenge]

BIN-GO, eTiMaGo! That was exactly my point all along. :w00t:

~YR

[eTiMaGo]

woohoo someone agrees with me *gets tears in his eyes*

[daq421]

I am also baffled by those of you with auto's that want to shift them, it is just silly, and hurting your trans..... you are going to do what you are going to do.... I just don't understand why one would damage such am expensive part of your car on purpose, it is like not ever changing your oil

Again.. This is not really a thread about using the A/T like a manual, It's a thread about dropping out of D and into 3rd entering into turns to bring up the RPM's to put power to the wheels when you need it. All I said was the little car seems to respond to this action very well (as opposed to say my old A/T Cutlass). Using the A/T in this fashion is much like using it to engine brake down a hill, or dropping out of O/D into 3rd to pass up a hill. I'm not starting in 1st and "up-shifting" as I pull away from lights, nor am I "down-shifting" as I come to a stop.

-Peter

[Pavel Olavich]

I also stand by my belief that you're a retard. :wink:

Time and again you are confusing my comments on a manumatic with a standard automatic transmission. I have yet to make ANY comment on a standard auto tranny, yet you insist on quoting scripture from manuals about downshifting standard autos, and how it's supposed to be done.

YES YES YES, automatic transmission are meant to be downshifted manually!!! We get that. It's original purpose is for driving situations that confuse the automatic shifting (such as semi-steep inclines), or for loaded towing, but hell, if you want, downshift the sucker all you want. I don't care, and I honestly don't think it will cause any problem. I routinely kick mine out of overdrive to assist braking all the time.

Now Pavel, let me lay this out for you one more time, so you can understand what I'm saying. In a MANUMANTIC transmission there is a separate shifter area marked with a "+" and a "-". When you move the lever to this area, it forces the automatic to behave more like a manual. To upshift, hit "+", to downshift, hit "-". WHAT I SAID EARLIER was that this style of shifting is pointless for sporty driving, because there is a time lag between hitting the "+" and the actual gear change. It can be done much faster and more efficiently in a manual transmission. SO, for SPORTY driving, a MANUMATIC doesn't make much sense, because the standard auto shifting program included is faster. Granted, I would expect the ones on luxury cars and race cars to be pretty good, but the run-of-the-mill manumatics SUCK.

*whew!* Now, before you reply, read this through at least twice and dwell on it, so you don't make yourself look stupid again. This makes at least twice now you've misread a post and argued about it.

Really, to call someone a "bumpkin", shouldn't you at least be able to spell it first? :laugh: And "compensating"? Dude, we're in a Yaris forum, or haven't you noticed? :rolleyes:

Answer me this: have you even hit your 20's yet? And be honest! I'm genuinely curious.

~YR

My true retarded friend, what YOU don't seem to understand is this:

(1) You don't know how to drive a A/T manually in the proper fashion.

(2) You'd rather blame the equipment then admit (1).

(3) When moving the selector + or - one often NEEDS to work the gas pedel in conjunction with dropping a gear, so that the lag is NOT THERE!!!!!

Do you need picture, or are you just slow minded? You idiot, I am 47! And talking to you is like talking to a 13 year old brat that lacks accountability, responsability, and whose knee jerk reaction is to blame the equipment instead of admiting that he is ignorant.