Quick Turbo Question

[Ryze268]

Which side determines how fast a turbo will spool?

The Compressor A/R or the Turbine A/R?

The reason I ask is because I see this;

Fast Spool, 0.42 A/R Compressor, 0.86 A/R Turbine

Thanks

[malibuguy]

Both...but turbine is more important.

[scioncrew]

Turbine A/R .. determines turbo spool up speed

[Ryze268]

so ideally a small turbine is required ? What does the compressor A/R determine ?

[fnkngrv]

The better question is what are you trying to do

[cali yaris]

straight from Garrett website:

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbine_housing_AR_and_housing_sizing
Compressor A/R - Compressor performance is comparatively insensitive to changes in A/R. Larger A/R housings are sometimes used to optimize performance of low boost applications, and smaller A/R are used for high boost applications. However, as this influence of A/R on compressor performance is minor, there are not A/R options available for compressor housings.

Turbine A/R - Turbine performance is greatly affected by changing the A/R of the housing, as it is used to adjust the flow capacity of the turbine. Using a smaller A/R will increase the exhaust gas velocity into the turbine wheel. This provides increased turbine power at lower engine speeds, resulting in a quicker boost rise. However, a small A/R also causes the flow to enter the wheel more tangentially, which reduces the ultimate flow capacity of the turbine wheel. This will tend to increase exhaust backpressure and hence reduce the engine's ability to "breathe" effectively at high RPM, adversely affecting peak engine power.

Conversely, using a larger A/R will lower exhaust gas velocity, and delay boost rise. The flow in a larger A/R housing enters the wheel in a more radial fashion, increasing the wheel's effective flow capacity, resulting in lower backpressure and better power at higher engine speeds.

[fnkngrv]

straight from Garrett website:

+1 :thumbsup:

[Ryze268]

Thanks much, that explains everything and..

I'm going boosted of course, even if it's just 6lbs

[fnkngrv]

Thanks much, that explains everything and..

I'm going boosted of course, even if it's just 6lbs

Understood, but in order to provide any real assistance we need to know your goals. There are still some folks around that can give you solid info, but also as well one of the first suggestions is to look at the Zage kit that MicroImageOnline sells and for that you can contact cali yaris especially if you are looking to go with 6psi. :w00t:

[Ryze268]

Some more turbo questions:

I'm gonna be tuning with an AEM F/IC
1) Do I need to keep the factory O2 sensor?
2) Do I need to keep the factory MAF?
3) Can I just splice in extra wires to extend the above sensors to relocate them to where they need to be?

I'm still in the process of getting things together so I'm sure I'll have more questions soon.

-Justin

[CTScott]

Some more turbo questions:

I'm gonna be tuning with an AEM F/IC
1) Do I need to keep the factory O2 sensor?
2) Do I need to keep the factory MAF?
3) Can I just splice in extra wires to extend the above sensors to relocate them to where they need to be?

I'm still in the process of getting things together so I'm sure I'll have more questions soon.

-Justin


Yes to all 3. An AEM F/IC is a piggyback, so the OEM ECM is still doing the work and the F/IC is just supplementing it, so the OEM ECM still needs its sensor inputs. If you went with an AEM EMS, which is a standalone, then you could switch to a MAP sensor and only run a good wideband AFR sensor to feed the EMS.

[Ryze268]

Thanks a lot, I will be extending the wires then.

What is the FIC MAF Clamp all about?
I intend the run the injectors(1ZZ) using the FIC only, is that a good idea?

Here's a look at the Manifold & Turbo so far;
http://i58.tinypic.com/2mzmbr7.jpg
http://i62.tinypic.com/e159qr.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/2uiex78.jpg

[CTScott]

I like that manifold.

The MAF clamp feature of the F/IC prevents the ECM from seeing boost (i.e. out of range values from the MAF that would cause the ECM to throw a trouble code).

[Ryze268]

Thanks, I got the idea from boostedxa :)

I'm off from work Saturday so I'll begin mounting everything. I'm in need of the oil feed & return lines so I'll have to order those from eBay (local stores want $300 XCD)

[BoostedTRD]

Thanks a lot, I will be extending the wires then.

What is the FIC MAF Clamp all about?
I intend the run the injectors(1ZZ) using the FIC only, is that a good idea?

Here's a look at the Manifold & Turbo so far;
http://i58.tinypic.com/2mzmbr7.jpg
http://i62.tinypic.com/e159qr.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/2uiex78.jpg

Damn dude that looks sick!! good luck with the turbo hopefully the mounting and everything else turns out great.:thumbsup:

[Ryze268]

Thanks much, I'll be sure to update you guys with any progress I make.

[Ryze268]

My sandwich adaptor and oil lines arrived today. Just need a few more couplers and boost/oil pressure gauges.

Question:
1) Should I use Teflon tape on everything I have to screw in (to avoid leaks)?
2) How does the factory 1NZ turbo Vitz read boost?
3) What kind of oil do you guys recommend?

[KTS]

1) yes you can but do it neat if you decide to as any tape that blocks a passage can be the end of a turbo or even the engine. There is a liquid thread seal that can be purchased that works good and will avoid blockages. Those couplings/fittings are designed to prevent leaks.
2) I have no idea wish I had a turbo vitz to tell you. You wud need at least a 2 bar map sensor (1 bar vacuum and 1 bar boost) wired to your management of choice and the clip the MAF sensor voltage at atmospheric pressure.
3) Use the same oil you usually use. Turbos are designed to be used with a wide variety of oils. What is more important is using the correct oil restrictor for your turbo. Too much or too little oil pressure to a turbo is what destroys the turbo. Your turbo looks like a chine turbo therefore you should prime the oil system before starting ( unplug all coils and injectors) and tumble the car with the oil return disconnected. Then start the car only when oil drains from the oil return line. This will ensure that the turbo is receiving oil. When I had a chine T2860 turbo I had a radiator repair place weld close the oil supply banjo bolt and then I re-drilled a smaller hole to limit oil pressure to the turbo. Garrett website indicates the oil restrictor size for journal and ball bearing turbos. Or contact the turbo supplier and ask them if a restrictor is needed then ask them again lol.
Sorry I think I got carried away. I just miss having a turbo charged car and remembering all the little projects I had to do.

[Ryze268]

1) yes you can but do it neat if you decide to as any tape that blocks a passage can be the end of a turbo or even the engine. There is a liquid thread seal that can be purchased that works good and will avoid blockages. Those couplings/fittings are designed to prevent leaks.
2) I have no idea wish I had a turbo vitz to tell you. You wud need at least a 2 bar map sensor (1 bar vacuum and 1 bar boost) wired to your management of choice and the clip the MAF sensor voltage at atmospheric pressure.
3) Use the same oil you usually use. Turbos are designed to be used with a wide variety of oils. What is more important is using the correct oil restrictor for your turbo. Too much or too little oil pressure to a turbo is what destroys the turbo. Your turbo looks like a chine turbo therefore you should prime the oil system before starting ( unplug all coils and injectors) and tumble the car with the oil return disconnected. Then start the car only when oil drains from the oil return line. This will ensure that the turbo is receiving oil. When I had a chine T2860 turbo I had a radiator repair place weld close the oil supply banjo bolt and then I re-drilled a smaller hole to limit oil pressure to the turbo. Garrett website indicates the oil restrictor size for journal and ball bearing turbos. Or contact the turbo supplier and ask them if a restrictor is needed then ask them again lol.
Sorry I think I got carried away. I just miss having a turbo charged car and remembering all the little projects I had to do.

Thanks much, I'm using a t25 banjo feed kit so I'm hoping it already has the required oil restriction

[CTScott]

Thanks much, I'm using a t25 banjo feed kit so I'm hoping it already has the required oil restriction

Most of the banjo feed kits do have built in restrictors, but they typically are offered in separate choices of 1.5mm for journal bearings and 1.0mm for ball bearings.

[Ryze268]

Most of the banjo feed kits do have built in restrictors, but they typically are offered in separate choices of 1.5mm for journal bearings and 1.0mm for ball bearings.

Do you think I'm safe with mine? another question, what's wrong with running the return line to the oil pan?

[CTScott]

Do you think I'm safe with mine? another question, what's wrong with running the return line to the oil pan?

Just check the size of the hole in it. If it is too large then you maintain pressure through the turbo, which can cause oil seepage through the bearing and hence smoke out the exhaust. The return oil line can also cause the same problem if the oil exiting meets resistance (like pumping up through a puddle of oil). That and frothing of the oil are why you want the return above the level of the oil in the pan.

[Ryze268]

Just check the size of the hole in it. If it is too large then you maintain pressure through the turbo, which can cause oil seepage through the bearing and hence smoke out the exhaust. The return oil line can also cause the same problem if the oil exiting meets resistance (like pumping up through a puddle of oil). That and frothing of the oil are why you want the return above the level of the oil in the pan.

Oh darn, that sounds terrible. Would I need to take the engine out to drill into the upper oil pan assembly?

I'm also looking for a base tune that has the maf clamp already set up for the F/IC 6

[CTScott]

Oh darn, that sounds terrible. Would I need to take the engine out to drill into the upper oil pan assembly?

I'm also looking for a base tune that has the maf clamp already set up for the F/IC 6

With a right angle drill you should be able to do it in place. You will need to remove the oil pan when doing so to make sure you don't have any metal left behind.

For the MAF clamp it is best to follow the procedure shown in the F/IC documentation for doing so, as your air intake setup may provide different readings than on another car.

[Ryze268]

With a right angle drill you should be able to do it in place. You will need to remove the oil pan when doing so to make sure you don't have any metal left behind.

For the MAF clamp it is best to follow the procedure shown in the F/IC documentation for doing so, as your air intake setup may provide different readings than on another car.

Sounds good.

I was watching the AEM tutorials and thy said to install the FIC and collect data while the car is stock first so that's what I'm trying to do.

[CTScott]

Sounds good.

I was watching the AEM tutorials and thy said to install the FIC and collect data while the car is stock first so that's what I'm trying to do.

Correct. That is how you see where the MAF needs to be clamped on your particular setup.

[Ryze268]

Correct. That is how you see where the MAF needs to be clamped on your particular setup.

Thanks, I wired up the FIC (haven't soldered it yet as I'm not sure about the pinout info I have) I hooked up the bypass harness and it starts.

It idles really high (1500-2000rpm) not sure why, i haven't tried driving it yet. Hopefully I won't run into any issues and I need to get to work tonight.

If it drives well, i'll let my friend solder it tomorrow.

[cali yaris]

Mine backed up and smoked with the restrictor. Ran perfectly without it. Depends on your set up I think.

[Ryze268]

Thanks Garm, I'll try it will just the banjo fitting. I'm using -8 AN for the return, since my turbo will be above the engine I'm hoping that gravity will be on my side.

This is the fitting:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Turbo-Oil-Feed-Banjo-Bolt-Kit-Garrett-T25-T28-TB25-TB28-Journal-Bearing-/181563283262?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a4603d73e&vxp=mtr

I made it to work tonight (there's where I'm writing this from lol).

Since the car runs fine with the bypass harness connected, does that mean I wired it correctly?

[CTScott]

Since the car runs fine with the bypass harness connected, does that mean I wired it correctly?

The bypass connector just jumps the intercepted wires together. It basically verifies that your in and out pairs are correct for any of the intercepted wires.

[Ryze268]

The bypass connector just jumps the intercepted wires together. It basically verifies that your in and out pairs are correct for any of the intercepted wires.

Awww so that means I'm not in the clear yet huh?

[Ryze268]

Connected the F/IC today with the AEM supplied base map, at first the car wouldn't start then when it did, it struggled to idle and would not rev past 3000rpm.

Am I missing something?

[kou]

Is this the first start up? Is your car still stock? If it is you should have all zeros in all the maps so that it doesn't make any changes to the factory tune.

[CTScott]

Also, make sure on the AEM software that you go into "Setup" "System" and set the injector response time to 810 us.

[Ryze268]

Is this the first start up? Is your car still stock? If it is you should have all zeros in all the maps so that it doesn't make any changes to the factory tune.

Yes, still stock except 1ZZ injectors, all the maps are zero'd

[kou]

You should go to injector size change put in original size then change to 1zz. I think stock is 200cc and 1zz is 250cc if I remember correctly.

[kou]

I will look at my old maps to make sure.

[Ryze268]

I read this forum post

Actually, it's a common problem that FIC users have if the unit is not setup properly. If your cam/crank sensor signal & grounds are not 100% and are noisy, it will cause the FIC to pick up a bad signal at higher RPM. Your symptoms will be difficulty revving past 3500-4500rpm and it's a common issue. The easy fix is to install a 2.2K(just a baseline, you might have to go higher or lower) ohm resistor parallel to the cam and crank sensor inputs and tie them into their respective grounds with the resistors. The good test for this is to run the engine NA (just undo the intercooler piping so the turbo can't build boost), and free rev the engine. It should go up to the 6500rpm stock redline no problem with just the stock ECU connected. If you hook up the AEM and do the same, but it cuts at 3000-4500rpm range, then you have the common faulty ground. Make sure all of the settings in the tuning cells are all set to 0 while you perform this test(this ensures that the FIC is not screwing with the signals).

Read more: http://www.clublexus.com/forums/performance/583742-help-fi-c-installed-will-not-rev-above-3500rpm-2.html#ixzz3IyAIgzbE

Do you think that has anything to do with it? When ground these connections, do I have to do it to the ECU or can i ground them somewhere else?

[CTScott]

I read this forum post



Do you think that has anything to do with it? When ground these connections, do I have to do it to the ECU or can i ground them somewhere else?

The resistors are not a bad idea to add. As long as you tie the other end of the resistor to a good ground it doesn't matter where you do so.

[Ryze268]

The resistors are not a bad idea to add. As long as you tie the other end of the resistor to a good ground it doesn't matter where you do so.

Would the best ground be straight to the negative terminal of thee battery?

[CTScott]

Would the best ground be straight to the negative terminal of thee battery?

Yes, but that is not necessary. Any ground bolt or ground wire is sufficient.

[Ryze268]

Yes, but that is not necessary. Any ground bolt or ground wire is sufficient.

Do you have a specific way of setting up the resistor contrary to "parallel to the cam and crank sensor inputs and tie them into their respective grounds with the resistors."

A quick diagram would b helpful. I'm really disappointed that the F/IC is turning out to be such a headache.

It would feel great if we could finally get it working right

[kou]

http://www.scionlife.com/forums/scion-tc-1g-forced-induction-1645/diy-aem-f-ic-harness-resistor-mod-154729/ is this it?

[Ryze268]

http://www.scionlife.com/forums/scion-tc-1g-forced-induction-1645/diy-aem-f-ic-harness-resistor-mod-154729/ is this it?

Thanks much, I'll give it a try. I pray to God it works

[KTS]

Yea the battery negative will be a good ground. I had that problem with noise before and the resistors fixed it after adding many resistors. U should try with your stock injectors first and see if u have the same problem. Only try to change one thing at a time so u can keep check of how it responds.

[Ryze268]

Yea the battery negative will be a good ground. I had that problem with noise before and the resistors fixed it after adding many resistors. U should try with your stock injectors first and see if u have the same problem. Only try to change one thing at a time so u can keep check of how it responds.

My stock injectors crapped out on my that's why I changed them. How many resistors did you have to add?

[KTS]

I had to do that on a 5efte starlet engine so I know that it can work once it is the problem. Add resistors until you get a clean signal as different situations will require different amounts of resistors and it also depends on the amount of interference you are experiencing. I had to add about 4 resistors per signal but that was a much older car (1991)

[Ryze268]

I had to do that on a 5efte starlet engine so I know that it can work once it is the problem. Add resistors until you get a clean signal as different situations will require different amounts of resistors and it also depends on the amount of interference you are experiencing. I had to add about 4 resistors per signal but that was a much older car (1991)

I'll give it a try and let you know if it works

[Ryze268]

Tried the resistor mod, the car idled a lot smoother but still refused to rev past 3000rpm.

Vid here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtVrqai0icc

What settings would affect the RPM in the fic?

I'm just about ready to give up..

[KTS]

Don't give up. you will definitely enjoy it in the end when it is working great. Trial and error is all part of it. all settings for fuel and ignition should be at zero but in your case with the larger injectors try setting fuel at 3k rpm a little negative. How many resistors you added?

[Ryze268]

Don't give up. you will definitely enjoy it in the end when it is working great. Trial and error is all part of it. all settings for fuel and ignition should be at zero but in your case with the larger injectors try setting fuel at 3k rpm a little negative. How many resistors you added?

1 2.2k resistor per connection. Everything is zero'd

If the ecu can rev just fine with the bypass harness, shouldn't it rev just fine with the fic zero'd?

Now I'm starting to think I have a bad fic :cry:

[KTS]

try adding a second resistor....then a third and see if it improves.
Just saying from past experiences with another vehicle I got no improvement after one resistor, nor two, nor three, it was successful after 4four resistors. Its worth a try for you too. the resistors are cheap and easy to connect.

[Ryze268]

I'm waiting on CTScott to reply. i believe it's wired in wrong.

[Ryze268]

Wiring is correct, disconnected the CAM and CRK wires same issue occurs, would flooding the engine with fuel cause it to not rev?

[BoostedTRD]

Wiring is correct, disconnected the CAM and CRK wires same issue occurs, would flooding the engine with fuel cause it to not rev?

have you removed your spark plugs and checked them?