Total Newb - Need help with picking speakers, tools and terms [Archive] - Toyota Yaris Forums

spektre

10-26-2013, 02:10 AM

Hey everyone, I've got a 3 door 2011 Yaris (US). I've recently decided to replace my speakers and I want to do it myself so that I save on labor costs. Problem is, I've never actually ever bought or replaced car speakers before. I have no clue about the market and what I need to buy. I've been doing some research but it's left me confused.

I do know the size of the speakers I need but do I really need a sub? I found the bass from the factory units to be satisfying enough (for factory) so I was thinking I'd just buy 4 new speakers. What brands should I go for? I'd like to be frugal (as opposed to "cheap"). Also do I need a new amp? Ideally I'd only like to change the speakers.

Also I was reading about different speaker types and saw terms that I'm not sure I fully understand.. The amazon guide here (www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=car_cerc_bg_sp?ie=UTF8&docId=1000819271) left me a bit more confused about it all than I liked. So far I think I'm going to buy four coaxial speakers (2 front + 2 back) and forego the sub. Am I making sense here?

Sorry if I'm asking dumb/incorrect questions. I'm literally starting from scratch here and could use all the help I can get. I've set aside 4 months to save the money and plan this so I have time.

willygoodness

10-26-2013, 07:35 AM

if its cheaper.. just update the head unit to one that has better RMS output per channel. I noticed a big difference doing just that

_S7V7N_

10-26-2013, 10:02 AM

What is your budget. $$$
Do you want to replace your factory headunit/cd player?

For front a few of us used components. (Component 6.5's) which sound pretty kick$$@. To start off I'd do components in Front with a small amp. And leave rears alone till you get more money.

In the future go with some midbass 6.5's or even 6.5 woofers in Rear.

If you plan on doing that may wanna snatch up a 4channel amp first go round.

But we tend to use amps on aftermarket speakers because the factory cd player only puts out 10 watts of Rms power. Aftermarket units do about 18watts Rms of power.

Terms to Google:
RMS of an amp or speaker
Impedance.
Ohm
Watt.
All these terms are car audio related.

spektre

10-27-2013, 07:20 PM

Thanks for the indepth reply S7!

My budget is around $100 if I can keep it there. If I can't get any good sound I'd be reluctantly willing to spend more. I want to change as little as possible besides the speakers. So definitely keep the headunit if I can help it. You're saying I need a new amp so I'll look into that too.

Something in the speakers is distorting the bass and so my sound has deteriorated in the last few months. Without knowing exactly where the problem is I'm not sure I can do anything except change all 4 speakers together.

_S7V7N_

10-28-2013, 02:09 AM

Okay first lets get into how the other speakers got messed up. I'm giving you a link that talks about signal clipping. Just read. No need to go all into the mathematics.

http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm

Okay what i want you to learn from that link is (Don't get offended) You may have been the main cause of why the speakers are failing. We all do it. We all have that certain song we want to jam out too and we crank the volume button up to max volume and " get crunk" or jiggy with it" or idk whatever kids do now a days.

Okay idk if the max volume is 32 on your radio or 62 in either case you should probably not turn it up to the max level because it will put out a Clipped signal which will in time screw up your speakers. (Distortion,Rattling,Sound Like Crap) A safe level is about 80 percent of the max level and even then on a factory unit you'll still get a bit of distortion (clipped signal).

Okay now this will effect your new speakers because in your head you just spent 100 bucks on a kick--- pair of brand new speakers and you figure well lemme crank it up to " max level " well guess what in a few days/weeks you'll be having the same issue you have now. Distortion kills speakers. Of course the box says 300 watts max and you think they're the incredible hulk but you'll be comming back on here saying they were pieces of crap and demand a refund. K end of that rant.

That's why we use aftermarket amplifiers to power speakers. If you just replace speakers alone it's basically a waste of money.

Ok that's enough for now. Read the website and this.

Feel free to ask more questions.

sqcomp

10-28-2013, 03:11 PM

HULK SMASH!

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-green/greensmilies-011.gif

What S7 is saying is that you should level match your system. What this will do is to make the input levels correct from piece to piece whether that be in a competition system or just a street car daily driver.

Eliminate the clipping through level matching AND good source music (because music has clipped information occasionally*), get decent speakers that can handle the load you're going to throw at them and the "driver mod" (as in you control the volume properly).

Follow these steps and you'll never realistically have to worry about blowing speakers again.

*There is more clipping from source information that people like to think. Google "loudness wars" and you'll understand.

Exiwolfman

10-28-2013, 09:04 PM

well i can say this ...did my deck on sale for 89 bucks by pionner , sub out , mp3 ,usb etc does lots, remote ..also got me a bazooka 8 inch build in amp on sale for 74 bucks and harness and deck install kit ..little more than u want to spend but i say do the head unit, it woke my speakers right up and the sub sounds nice in a 3 door hb.
Next will be door and rear speakers but for now it sounds awesome.

_S7V7N_

10-29-2013, 12:43 AM

Okay i'm going to give you a link to a speaker.

Would i use it. On a budget. Maybe.

The reason i am recommending this speaker is because its cheap. Learn from it. If you mess it up it's disposable.

35 Watts RMS which will kind of work on factory power.

http://vminnovations.com/Product_52734/Kenwood-KFC1664S-360W-6-5-3-Way-Sport-Series-Coaxial-Speakers-Pair-.html

http://srv1.vm-images.net/sys/resource.ashx?guid=4cf56aac02fa46eb895fdda7e01a906 a&w=390&h=300&p=10

spektre

10-29-2013, 01:54 AM

S7, Thanks for all the great advice. You're totally on the money with how I busted my speakers: Cranking the volume. The article you linked to was also very good.

I do know that I want a system that can put out high volume though. So I have to make sure I do this right. How do I level match? What am I looking to do? Per the article I need speakers that can handle significantly more than my amp can put out? Is that right? Can I still keep things economical with a worthwhile amp?

I've got someone willing to give me 4 of these for $100: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Car/Speakers/D-Series/TS-D1702R

_S7V7N_

10-29-2013, 02:22 AM

Them are 60 watts rms.

Installing an amp will be a bit tough for somebody new. Do you have somebody who has some basic knowledge. We can give details. But you'll still need help.

spektre

10-29-2013, 02:29 AM

Could you explain the RMS designation please? I'm having some trouble understanding what that means in relation to the amp.

Also, I see that some headunits have built in amps? According to the amazon.com guide (http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=car_cerc_bg_cs?ie=UTF8&docId=1000823881&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-3&pf_rd_r=11YYBPGZG1KB31XTEFC7&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1634382102&pf_rd_i=10980601), 'Receivers' have built in amps. So if I buy and install a new headunit (I've read the headunit install guide (http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=556)) that should mean I don't need to worry about a complex amp install?

_S7V7N_

10-29-2013, 02:45 AM

RMS is the continuous power it can handle. Read
http://www.bcae1.com/speakrat.htm

The Kenwoods i have listed will work well with an aftermarket unit. The pioneers will also sound good. Difference is the ones i showed you will be about $63(4speakers) the pioneers you listed are $100.

Money you saved can be put towards a headunit since you are on a budget. Your decision.

If them Pioneers are Brand New. Hop on them. Used...I'd pass..

spektre

10-29-2013, 03:02 AM

I think I've reached the conclusion that I'll have to shell out ~$100 each on the speakers and a new headunit to do this the right away. Now my biggest issue will be getting the volume level I want without clipping.

_S7V7N_

10-29-2013, 03:10 AM

K in numbers

Stock Headunit 10 watts RMS

Aftermarket 18-22 watts RMS

What i run 100 watts RMS with an amp. i don't use a headunit.(experiment) Music comes from my Galaxy s3 Only replaced Front Speakers with components. But..Loll just today i cranked some ac/dc on them and there stuff is distorted from the get go...sooooooo....I'll need a new component set soon..Lolll...It's never ending man...and no it didn't happen just from this one use..i give my system hell.

sqcomp

10-30-2013, 03:03 AM

What S7 is referencing is a 1/4" out from your phone/iPod/whatever into a single pair of male RCAs into an amplifier you purchase.

This is a hot rodder's trick to keep things simple.

http://ep.yimg.com/ay/acekaraoke/hosa-cmr-203-y-cable-3ft-1-8-stereo-male-to-dual-rca-male-2.gif

Perhaps buy a used amplifier and install that bish...I have several around but none of them are inexpensive unfortunately.

Heck, I do that little trick into my home system. It works like a charm.

@ S7...Can you make the stretch to some Audison Voce AVX 6.5's? Those are a nice little coaxial set. I'm using them in place of separates. They're holding up to some serious potential. Heck, I've got a 1000 Watt D class on a single old school ID8...but again, I have my system level matched properly.

JimKellyfan

10-30-2013, 04:01 PM

So that 10 RMS, is that set in stone ?
Like my 2010 model.
That is 10 watts RMS ?
What is peak ?

As far as speakers, I like polk audio, and they have an ebay classifieds store they sell their refurbs on.
I had em in my caprice and they were crystal clear.
I did need an amp though, and never put it in (still got it)
I bought a good stereo, that claimed 50 watts x 4, but that is peak power, and only for a moment. It really struggled to push anymore than 17 watts x 4 RMS
I would expect the same for most stereos still today.
That said, I want to change speakers, and eventually an amp to push them.
So me, I was looking at actual RMS power output and peak.
10, you say ?
K in numbers

Stock Headunit 10 watts RMS

Aftermarket 18-22 watts RMS

What i run 100 watts RMS with an amp. i don't use a headunit.(experiment) Music comes from my Galaxy s3 Only replaced Front Speakers with components. But..Loll just today i cranked some ac/dc on them and there stuff is distorted from the get go...sooooooo....I'll need a new component set soon..Lolll...It's never ending man...and no it didn't happen just from this one use..i give my system hell.

_S7V7N_

10-30-2013, 09:56 PM

10 watts Rms is not written by the hand of god. You can have variations. They have an integrated model, one that has navigation (tom tom). Or even the Pioneers that come in Scions can fit.

Pull your radio and get a model number. May even give rms. You speaker is rated as well. When I pulled my speaker I believe if I remember correct it had the rating on the magnet.

Max is usually double the Rms. So 20 watts max.(uneducated guess)

Major thing to remember is not to clip the signal.

sqcomp

10-31-2013, 04:24 AM

I bought a good stereo...it had NO Wattage output RMS or peak. It took me to the top levels of SQ competition.

Like S7 mentioned, look for the cleanest signal possible. Whether that be on the source material, through the stereo's amplifier and/or a standalone amplifier or what have you.

We can split hairs all day. It's about the cleanest and most accurate recreation of the original signal for a lot of people. To others it's about the loudest one can possibly achieve.

JimKellyfan

10-31-2013, 04:23 PM

CLIP THE SIGNAL ?
CUT THE WIRE IS THAT OR ?
I HAVE THE CRAPPY SQUARE LED STYLE, RADIO.
I HAVE THE MODEL AND SERIAL NUMBER WRITTEN DOWN, AS THEY CHANGED THE UNIT A FEW WEEKS AFTER I BOUGHT IT, AND THEY LET ME HANG WITH THE TECH / AN OLD CO-WORKER WHILE HE DID THE RADIO. (old radio said CD IN, even when not in)
NO WRITINGS ON SPEAKER MAG IN TRUNK.
BUT, YEAH IT SEEMS NO MATTER WHAT SPEAKER, I WILL NEED TO GET ME AN AMP. I HAVE A 2 CHANNEL, BUT WANT A 4 CHANNEL.
SPEAKERS, I WANT POLK AUDIO, BUT AMPS, I AM AFRAID POLKS MAY NOT BE GOOD ENOUGH IN THE AMP DEPARTMENT, AS MY PSW10 TOOK A DUMP 3 YEARS IN ON MY HOME AUDIO SUB AMP, LUCKILY, THEY GAVE ME A FREEBIE AMP AND IS WORKING SO FAR.
POLK'S, LOVE THEIR AUDIO QUALITY AND CLARITY AND POWER TAKING ABILITIES THOUGH. I DO KNOW, WITH FACTORY SPEAKERS, THE STOCK RADIO STRUGGLES, BUT THE STOCK RADIOS TUNING CAPABILITIES ARE GREAT (CAN GET GREENVILLE RADIO STATION IN CHARLOTTE AREA) 10 watts Rms is not written by the hand of god. You can have variations. They have an integrated model, one that has navigation (tom tom). Or even the Pioneers that come in Scions can fit.

Pull your radio and get a model number. May even give rms. You speaker is rated as well. When I pulled my speaker I believe if I remember correct it had the rating on the magnet.

Max is usually double the Rms. So 20 watts max.(uneducated guess)

Major thing to remember is not to clip the signal.

dj92

10-31-2013, 05:53 PM

No flame:
At least my Yaris' speakers have 4 Ohms.
That makes far more than 10 Watts from the stock headunit (which has, like almost (!) all with internal Amplifier, no step up converter) even if I include voltage drop in the amplifier ;)
Of course I don't think that the original speakers can handle far more power than the stock HU can deliver.

Please don't hit me, but I don't know whether I should open a thread just for this question:
How much bass can one expect from a box built from fiber glass and resin that fits perfectly under the passenger seat whith a let's say 300W RMS speaker?
(my female colleagues I use to drive around from time to time might like it :evil: )
(the space under the driver's seat is already occupied by the jack)
I totally understand that a bass box in the luggage compartment would be best, but then I always have this big thing in there wasting space ;)

sqcomp

10-31-2013, 08:00 PM

"CLIP THE SIGNAL ?
CUT THE WIRE IS THAT OR ?"

Back away from the radio...do NOT cut any wires!

http://i.stack.imgur.com/jiFfM.jpg

No no...This is more appropriate:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2788/4127992813_91c0640808.jpg

sqcomp

10-31-2013, 08:09 PM

Okay guys...

Please back away from the assumptions of potential and resistance. Please.

Use the K.I.S.S. principle. What can you do to simplify and/or improve your current systems to make the signal quality better?

JimKellyfan

11-01-2013, 08:12 AM

I guess it was how it was worded for me, or I am too old and not hip on the lingo.
But thanks for reiteration / explanation.

sqcomp

11-01-2013, 07:37 PM

What it seems that you have is the integrated head unit.

I have/had the same. There are several options up front for you. One costs a heck of a lot more but will retain the factory look and give you HUGE control over your sound.

I speak of an aftermarket processor to an amplifier. I've run several processors in my experience.

Another option for you with the factory head unit is to run a less expensive line output converter to an amplifier.

Oh and don't take anything personally, I simply wanted to give you a hard time. I'd also bet that we're probably around the same age plus or minus a few years. Age has nothing to do with it all honestly.

_S7V7N_

11-03-2013, 12:17 AM

CLIP THE SIGNAL ?
CUT THE WIRE IS THAT OR ?
I HAVE THE CRAPPY SQUARE LED STYLE, RADIO.
I HAVE THE MODEL AND SERIAL NUMBER WRITTEN DOWN, AS THEY CHANGED THE UNIT A FEW WEEKS AFTER I BOUGHT IT, AND THEY LET ME HANG WITH THE TECH / AN OLD CO-WORKER WHILE HE DID THE RADIO. (old radio said CD IN, even when not in)
NO WRITINGS ON SPEAKER MAG IN TRUNK.
BUT, YEAH IT SEEMS NO MATTER WHAT SPEAKER, I WILL NEED TO GET ME AN AMP. I HAVE A 2 CHANNEL, BUT WANT A 4 CHANNEL.
SPEAKERS, I WANT POLK AUDIO, BUT AMPS, I AM AFRAID POLKS MAY NOT BE GOOD ENOUGH IN THE AMP DEPARTMENT, AS MY PSW10 TOOK A DUMP 3 YEARS IN ON MY HOME AUDIO SUB AMP, LUCKILY, THEY GAVE ME A FREEBIE AMP AND IS WORKING SO FAR.
POLK'S, LOVE THEIR AUDIO QUALITY AND CLARITY AND POWER TAKING ABILITIES THOUGH. I DO KNOW, WITH FACTORY SPEAKERS, THE STOCK RADIO STRUGGLES, BUT THE STOCK RADIOS TUNING CAPABILITIES ARE GREAT (CAN GET GREENVILLE RADIO STATION IN CHARLOTTE AREA)

@JimKellyfan

Read this a few times over.

Signal Clipping

http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm

_S7V7N_

11-03-2013, 12:20 AM

JimKellyfan

11-04-2013, 08:06 AM

TMI
Good read for those who want it.
Basic definition = good enough.
@JimKellyfan

Read this a few times over.

Signal Clipping

http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm

sqcomp

11-04-2013, 09:59 AM

That page S7 listed is a must read for anyone who thinks they know or who wants to know about pushing their system to the limits.

A basic definition is good enough for those who don't know or want to know what is going on when they blow their system to low earth orbit.

In my last system I addressed all the points of control listed on the page. I had three points of level control (gain) for each speaker and then a fourth point of control for my tweeters. How so?

All my music was, as much as possible, conditioned to not clip at the signal level with a music editor.

My old source unit had level control on all four crossover bands.

My processor had level control on all crossover bands.

Each amplifier had gain control.

The tweeters, even though they were run actively, had a Butterworth filter constructed to cut the signal approximately 1kHz below the normal running frequency range of 3kHz...even though I usually ran them around 10 kHz or higher because of the mid range speakers. The filter (two caps for each positive wire) was placed inline after the amplifier and before the speaker.

My source was usually running at full unclipped voltage (4.99 V). I hardly even touched the source. Most adjustments were made off the processor's control. Do we expect you to go to the same level of protection that I did? Not at all. That being said, you have the know how around you to protect your investment.

...Use it...

Or don't complain when you launch speakers consistently.

_S7V7N_

11-04-2013, 01:30 PM

TMI
Good read for those who want it.
Basic definition = good enough.

TMI ?

Man you think a clipped signal is cutting wire.

You posted a question it got answered. Now its too much reading ? Lol.

I apologize for giving an in depth reply.

Best thing for you to do is go to an install shop or Best Buy. Have them install whatever system you choose.

sqcomp

11-04-2013, 10:09 PM

Oh gawd...not Best Buy.

On the other hand...perhaps that disaster waiting to happen is fitting.

_S7V7N_

11-04-2013, 10:28 PM

Best Buy sells Polk and will spoon feed him what he wants to hear while draining his bank account.

Within a few months he'll say the amp or speakers failed because he went ape sh!t on the volume and clipped his system to hell.

At that time I'll post the same link.

sqcomp

11-05-2013, 01:30 AM

Truth. I can't tell you how many times I've seen that chain screw vehicles up...

JimKellyfan

11-06-2013, 05:39 PM

No Best Buy for me.
I just used to throw any speaker that worked in.
Then I bought some polks after goin over a friends house and hearin his.
I have polks inside and outside, and used to have them in my Caprice.
I got them from various sources, none of which were from best buy.
My Caprice speakers, I got from polk audio's ebay store, I blasted them as much as I could and they sounded great.
My house speakers, I bought all but one set from Newegg, the one set I got at an ebay auction (caprice were buy it nows).
And the outside speakers, I won them from polk audio themselves.
Now, don't get me wrong, I do not like polk audio amplifiers or subs. I have a PSW10 (entry level and garbage) the amp failed after three years, it had a port noise until I fixed it and so on.
Now their speaker quality, the clarity is awesome.
My wife and I listened to some music when we bought our first set of Monitor 60's, and we heard sounds in songs we never heard before.
I know there are other good brands and better brands, but dollar for dollar, to spend less and get entry level audiophile, the polks have it.
I only preach polk, because I am believer, in many, not all of their products.
On ebay now, there is a 5 1/4 3 way and a 3 way 6 x 9 for about 160/170 total. I have to wait for now, because I want the sway bar first, but will get one of them. My Caprice had the MM (mobile monitors which could withstand salt spray, so you know they can take the condensation/vibration abuse door speakers see, as well as the sun burden back panel speakers see.
Just tryin to share the knowledge is all, tryin to help the fellow Yarii owners.
FYI, this past weekend, I shaved the "is" off my back logo, so it says "Yar" (think Simpson sailor dude, "Yar!")

sqcomp

11-07-2013, 02:25 AM

Yeah...my wife just looks at me like I'm crazy because I bought 70's gear for my stereo components. Nothing like having "golden age" stereo gear.

JimKellyfan

11-07-2013, 08:08 AM

Yeah, earlier this year, I sold my Sansui G33000. It worked, but needed new caps, but before that issue, it blew a woofer in one of my Monitors. Well, I blew it by having the volume on "4", so to say for about 4 hours. If you know the stereo, it was a top 5 of all time ever made, in the behemoth power wars in the late 70's early 80's. It pushed 300 wpc and peaked at 600 wpc. It was amazing while it produced, I miss it.