Real World Test: Yaris vs Yaris

[nurburgring]

cleong is a good buddy of mine, and we brought our cars up to a windy stretch of 2nd-3rd gear roads. We wanted to see how different our cars felt.

cleong's silver yaris:
1.5l 5sp manual
TRD springs
1.8 degree camber bolt
Zero toe-in upfront
Buddyclub P1 replicas 15 x 6.5"
Michelin Preceda II 195/55r15

nurburgring's black yaris:
1.5l 4sp ECT
Tanabe NF210
no changes to suspension geometry
Buddyclub P1 replicas 16x7"
Dunlop SP Maxx 195/50R16

Ride comfort:
Although having 16" wheels, my car (nurburgring) felt softer and I felt rode better. Just a tiny bit stiffer than stock. In fact, I dont have to slow down too much over speedbumps. I should attribute this to the NFs being clearly softer, especially in the back. Tyre noise for both cars is actually pretty good, with the Preceda's (according to cleong) being a tad quieter. To me though, I felt my tyres were quieter. *shrugs*. The Preceda's squeal more easily (still requires a massive dose of provocation), which is a good thing I feel.

Handling:
Quite different I would say. cLeong has a lighter, and more direct steering. Turn in felt sharper. It is immediately noticeable. I'll attribute this to his suspension geometry. Grip levels for both cars are very high, with the cleong's car pulling higher G's before breaking traction. Both cars feel progressive at the limit, although I must the Dunlops dont squeal much, so you gotta feel it. I think progression wise, my geometry was more friendly due to the slightly stretched tyres and more positive camber, cleong's car had a higher grip level, but when it understeers, it chatters a bit. I felt that my car was less grippy, as the car was riding on the outer edge of the tyres too much, so much so the sidewalls were bending. It felt soft at the limit. I think a -1.2 degree bolt will change things. I like the way cleong's car felt in corners, very flat.

We had tons of fun, exchanging cars, sitting in one another's car, and in the end, going together for the run. Obviously, he had more balls than me. I could only smell smoke.

But I'm happy I made a good choice to my tyres, quiet yet grippy. THe NFs felt good too. But less sporty than the TRDs.

cLeong, your take ?

[cleong]

nurburgring's (henceforth Marc) got our setups pretty well memorized. I'll only add on that I have tire pressures set at 230kPa front and 210 kPa rear.

Our test circuit is a curvy section of downhill road about 2 miles long. The gradient is generally less than 5%. We did descents as well as hillclimbs.

I took each car down at an approximately-constant 45mph(60-70kph), since one is manual and the other is auto. That helps take transmission out of the equation and we can concentrate on the handling.

Between the two cars, I feel that Marc's car has higher sustained cornering limits due to the footwear. However my car (as said) has a better turn-in and tires are more progressive. I can "convert" the neutral attitude toward planting throttle earlier to set up for the corner exit.

I cannot objectively judge Michelin Pilot Precedas for their grip levels (no basis for comparison to others) but their transition from grip to slide and back is the best I've tried so far (I've got time on Yokohama Aspec DBs, Falken Ziex, Bridgestone GR80).

Dunlop SportMaxx are new to me, and it took me a while to learn their limits. They are impressively high, and appeared to take more lateral Gs before losing traction. Marc complained about the sidewalls rolling; I have to say I can't feel it. I do know that the grip does fade more rapidly the harder you corner. The wider tires give better grip, and also gave the steering a nicely weighted feel that was less "woolly" than my own car.

The fact that the TTE springs are lower in the front are probably an important factor in the handling difference. I've said before that the difference in ride height shifts the CG forward a little. I like how the car pivots nicely around the front wheels when I turn in. That sort of sensation was picked up by Marc as feeling like the rear end was a little unweighted.

The front end of my car received attention from the setup guy who put in the camber and took out the toe. The net effect is that the car grips pretty well under hard cornering, and it has a generally darty pointy feel if you like that sort of thing.

It is probably hard to say which single factor contributes to the differing feel (as described by Marc). Could be all of them. But car setup is a pretty personal thing, some people like the security of understeer, I prefer to drive the front end of the car and let the rear follow. I can use the throttle to control the initial turn-in pointyness to turn it into productive understeer out of the corner.

That being said, we drive at fairly sensible speeds (less than 60mph) to learn the mechanical grip limits of the cars. As such there isn't much hard braking to unsettle the rear end. Driven at 10/10ths my car would probably be quite prone to spinning out going into bends.

I would look to dial out some front grip if I was going to bring my car to the racetracks.

[cleong]

I think I should sum up the two cars in a separate post.

The way my car is set up, its a front end biased car, and more fun for the twisties.

Marc's is fairly stock suspension geometry wise, and is the safer car. Its probably more ready for aggressive track driving given that it has a more neutral suspension balance.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

good review, both of you. sounds like a fun event. heh. for future reference, what do you guys recommend on wheel/tire size?

[nurburgring]

I will still go 16" for looks. But we are different people I guess. I'm all out for looks, and leong is all out for performance.

Despite having taller side walls, cleong's car had more direct steering. His wheels are probably lighter as well. :thumbsup:

If you go 16", I would highly recommend 195/50R16, very similar to stock diameter. Or 205/50R16 if u have a bit of camber in front.

[YarisGuy]

This is a great thread and some interesting reading. Thanks for the post and keep it up :)

[Blenjar]

yea nice post..

-- Blen

[Blenjar]

Question: Should I go coilcovers or just hit hte springs?

-- Blen

[cleong]

Question: Should I go coilcovers or just hit hte springs?

-- Blen

The answer is that it depends. If your favourite stretch of roads are the single lane back roads, then I think it would be fine to just get springs. These lowering springs (both Tanabe and TTE) are listed as cosmetic mods.

The stock dampers can't cope with speeds over 60mph (driving on twisty roads) at least on my car - the car gets floaty and choppy and quite seriously scary. The undulations in the road come too fast for the car and you're left reacting to sudden twitches that you never knew was there when you drove at slower speeds.

I'd just get adjustable shock absorber inserts than full coilover jobs though. Koni, where are you?

[nurburgring]

Question: Should I go coilcovers or just hit hte springs?

-- Blen


For a driver that wants the drop down look, good compromise of ride comfort/handling and affordability, I'm happy I went for springs.

Coils are way expensive, and way hard.

U mentioned TRDs or NFs for a highway driver who cares for looks,
I'ld say go for NFs. TRDs offer stiffer spring rates and may be too busy for you. But its subjective. Consider also, that NFs are lower behind. U may or may not like that.

[cleong]

I will still go 16" for looks. But we are different people I guess. I'm all out for looks, and leong is all out for performance.

Despite having taller side walls, cleong's car had more direct steering. His wheels are probably lighter as well. :thumbsup:

If you go 16", I would highly recommend 195/50R16, very similar to stock diameter. Or 205/50R16 if u have a bit of camber in front.

You may want to go 205 next time round - tire profile would be less stretched.

[cleong]

Recap of our cars:

Marc's (nurburgring):
http://www.pbase.com/marcwang/image/76950416.jpg

Leong's (cleong):
http://eaglet.org/albums/Yaris/CRW_4848.jpg

[Blenjar]

My current tires on my 17 inch 7.5 are 205 45 17. wat would u recommend after these are done?

lol let's not forget a picture of my car...hehehe

-- Blen

[Blenjar]

damn ur pictures r still nicer..

im take better one another day..

-- Blen

[cleong]

Depends on how much it rains up there. If its wet often, Pilot Sports. If its not, Yokohama AD07. Are these available there?

[Blenjar]

Yokohama is here, not sure about Pilot Sports..never heard of them..

-- Blen

[yrsdrgn]

good show. :thumbsup:

[eTiMaGo]

Recap of our cars:

Marc's (nurburgring):
http://www.pbase.com/marcwang/image/76950416.jpg

Leong's (cleong):
http://eaglet.org/albums/Yaris/CRW_4848.jpg

hehhe you guys literally are the Buddy Club Buddies :biggrin:

Anyway that was some great research you guys did, can always count on the kiasu singaporeans to over-analyse things (just kidding!) We oughta meet up whenever I go down to your little island next!

[St_G]

What level tints are on those cars?

[cleong]

hehhe you guys literally are the Buddy Club Buddies :biggrin:

Anyway that was some great research you guys did, can always count on the kiasu singaporeans to over-analyse things (just kidding!) We oughta meet up whenever I go down to your little island next!

Never really thought of it that way, Buddy Club Buddies. :biggrin: It was a slow night and we were both bored to tears. Hope it benefits the rest of the Yaris owners out there.

If you're coming over here, bring gifts, or don't come! :thumbup: I want some goodies from Toyota Thailand from that catalog you posted on the other thread. :headbang:

[cleong]

Yokohama is here, not sure about Pilot Sports..never heard of them..

-- Blen

I meant to say Michelin Pilot Sport.

[Blenjar]

Oh I'll take a look into those tires soon.

Which spring should I get for my rims?
I was thinking about the TRD progress over at spark.

Rims are 17-7.5 and tires are 205 45 17, next will change it to 215 40s.

I don't want my tires to make rub love to my car...so which?

-- Blen

[IllusionX]

Michelin Pilot sports, i'm sure they are available in the states hehe

[CASTREX]

Great review guys!:thumbup:

[CASTREX]

I'll only add on that I have tire pressures set at 230kPa front and 210 kPa rear.




By the way... can someone plz translate this to PSI???

[MrJester]

230 kPa = 33psi and 210 kPa = 30psi

Google is your friend

[cleong]

Things got a little dicey last night (to a more experienced driver it would probably be nothing) but the roads were wet in sections and I hit a damp patch just as I hit the brakes while the car was making a left turn.

The lively rear end I mentioned in the previous post, when traction-challenged, becomes a pretty dodgy oversteer situation.

The rear end started to step out, and I began to wind on opposite lock. Kept some throttle in, and then started to unwind the lock as it came back. It was only half a turn of countersteer but for a moment those kerbs looked awfully close.

Friday the 13th and I guess I had a large dose of luck helping me keep the shiny side up.

[Blenjar]

what do you guys think of this sexy picture?
:eyebulge:

-- Blen

[cleong]

Do you want to hear the truth?

[Doc Zaius]

I think he posted in the wrong forum...!

[Black Yaris]

215/40R17 Blen
Pilots ar the way to go, because we all know you are a Baller anyway

[Blenjar]

No no i want Cleong's opinion...i wanna take nice pic like they do...

I couldn't take it from afar and zoom it is since I only got a 6 pixel canon...
pixel gets pretty bad..
wat do u think of the picture tho?
any improvement?

-- Blen

[cleong]

Guess what, both me and nurburgring use 6mp cameras (his is a 2002 model, mine a 2003). Its not the pixel count.

You need to fix the following:

Location - wrong place. The parking garage is too dark, you had the car backlit against the bright background, and you didn't use a tripod. It seemed to have forced the camera to use a high ISO setting.

Composition - In your quest for a low angle you cut the wheels off. You cut the front bumper off too.

Processing - Increase the contrast and colour saturation with whatever program you might have. Picasa is freely available and very simple to use.

[Blenjar]

Thx a lot!

Location - True the parking lot was too dark with the bright..I can fix that. I don't tripod...does it really matter about a tripod? And my ISO was set on HI, now its on AUTO. What is ISO? I got 80, 100, 200, 400, 800, .

Composition - I kinda tho cutting was hott didn't mean to cut the bumper, I won't cut anymore.

Processing -

Other features - I'm assuming its better to us continuous shots?
Battery died, I'l edit this post when its charged again.

Canon SD630 Powershot *6 MP, Cannon Zoom Lens 3x :'(

-- Blen

[cleong]

ISO - sensor sensitivity. Set it as low as possible. Use a tripod when its dark and shutter speeds get slow.

Continuous shooting has got nothing to do with the image quality for this sort of shooting.

I am keeping my answers short because we are off topic here. Start a thread somewhere else, or do some Googling.

[thomasward00]

Recap of our cars:

Marc's (nurburgring):
http://www.pbase.com/marcwang/image/76950416.jpg

Leong's (cleong):
http://eaglet.org/albums/Yaris/CRW_4848.jpg



What is the Rim and Tire sizes on the Silver Car?

I have a Sedan that won't be lowered, I want a nice look but also drivability...

[cleong]

Its got 195/55 profile tires on a 15 inch rim.