Struts vs coilovers

[Ben_]

Why is it that a set of adjustable tokiko reds costs more than a set of adjustable coilovers? I can't seem to wrap my head around this

Looking for suspension upgrades for frequent auto x/track use, already got the rear sway bar (white line 22mm adjustable) and doing an alignment soon

[IllusionX]

Megan coilovers 900$. Reds 600$. What's the prob?

[ilikerice]

what class are you wanting to run in? Is it SCCA?

[CrankyOldMan]

Maybe he means "Reds + stiffer springs"?

[Ben_]

No I'm just wondering about quality of coilovers vs reds. I am choosing either stf or hs class and was wondering if anyone has advice about which to go for. I'm 90% sure I can only afford parts to be competitive in hs but I'm still weighing options. Its either a set of coiovers from yariscupcar on here for 500 or the reds with OEM springs

[Ben_]

I'll be trying out current mods at the track this weekend and going from there. I'd like to have a plan for mods before purchase

[7:34pm]

He's asking why sometimes struts cost more than coilovers.

IMO. Most coilovers you see for the Yaris are cheap because.. well, they're made cheaply. They'll look shiny and colourful when new, very tempting to buy because they're pretty and it feels like your money is being well spent. You'll see them starting to rust and lose their adjustability after a few years, or they will start leaking and will likely need a rebuild.

The HTS red you're asking about are decent struts and should last a while if paired with a decent set of springs, ie: not Tein s-techs or whatever they're called. They're a bit pricey but usually go on sale at microimage every now and then for around $600 which is a good deal. H&R springs or Eibach are decent.

[Ben_]

That is helpful. What do you mean decent springs? Springs are springs right?

He's on the right track I spend my money once and make a good investment. I plan on using these parts for a few years at the most and keeping the OEM stuff in storage. I just want something that will perform well while I'm interested in driving this car fast. I'll be doing suspension and exhaust and probably stopping there. I'd like to have my mods focus on performance but not make it so I can't dd it. I'm willing to sacrifice a decent amount of ride quality, but no scraping or rock hard suspension. That's why I wanted adjustment so I can turn at least some of the harsh ride on and off. I put 15k miles on the car last year

[CrankyOldMan]

Ok, I think you're asking the wrong question. Regardless of what class you run, you should start with tires and wheels.

Get a set of tires with the most grip (usually lowest treadwear) allowed in your class. The Toyo Proxes R1R is now available in 200 treadwear, and is allowed in HS. The magic size is 195/50R15 (I think). Get a set of lightweight wheels to go with them (11-13 lbs is good, sub-11 lbs is really expensive) and you're miles ahead of where springs will put you with stock tires. You can probably get a whole package for under $1000--don't bother with TPMS valve stems--which is comparable to an entry level coilover kit.

For what I've spent on shocks and springs over the last 3 years, I could have bought a decent set of coilovers. I didn't have the funds in one lump sum, so I went with each piece as I could afford it.

Just my 2 cents.

[Jason@SportsCar]

No I'm just wondering about quality of coilovers vs reds. I am choosing either stf or hs class and was wondering if anyone has advice about which to go for. I'm 90% sure I can only afford parts to be competitive in hs but I'm still weighing options. Its either a set of coiovers from yariscupcar on here for 500 or the reds with OEM springs

Cheap coilovers = cheap quality. If you are planning to run in HS you cant run a coilover anyway, have to retain the OE springs.

[Ben_]

I'll be getting tires/wheels too. Right now I have used proxies r1r on some used cheap aftermarket rims. I'm hoping to do some suspension to get better tire wear before jumping on a new set of tires/rims but I don't know that that is possible. I want to get them to stop wearing the outside corners and at least get it so I can flip them and use most of the life of the tire

[Ben_]

Im still deciding on stf vs hs class at the moment the season in Utah doesn't start for a few months so I have some time to do some planning and save up money

[Ben_]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/04/ff3973ab16c93929f3c1c5412f003d84.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/04/a43d965989b39bd69d0e00f3dfa815f2.jpg

[Jason@SportsCar]

I'll be getting tires/wheels too. Right now I have used proxies r1r on some used cheap aftermarket rims. I'm hoping to do some suspension to get better tire wear before jumping on a new set of tires/rims but I don't know that that is possible. I want to get them to stop wearing the outside corners and at least get it so I can flip them and use most of the life of the tire

Some additional negative camber via a set of the OE Toyota crash bolts, which are HS legal, will go a long ways towards fixing your edge wear issue. You may also need to raise your tire pressures.

[Ben_]

That tire wear was at 45psi. I installed crash bolts since my last visit to the track

[Jason@SportsCar]

That tire wear was at 45psi. I installed crash bolts since my last visit to the track

How much negative did you dial in?

[Ben_]

Hs legal is -.9 but I haven't had the chance to run it yet. Stf legal is anything

[Jason@SportsCar]

Hs legal is -.9 but I haven't had the chance to run it yet. Stf legal is anything

Where did you come up with that? You can install a pair of the smallest Toyota bolts and max it out, there is no number limitation in the rules for Street/Stock. Check 13.8.E in the Solo rules.

[Ben_]

Huh you are right I must have misread. This rulebook really gets to me sometimes. Do you have a suggested alignment? I have the bolts available on micro image and I'm sure nobody at the local events will disqualify me for it. I'm not going to be competing nationally

[ilikerice]

I would go with more camber.. like -2.5. If you are debating class, I would suggest going STF.. it is more fun with a decent budget.

I been running my Megan coil-overs for 3 years now, and they have done me very well, I had my car corner balanced also when I got them. I will say, I can no longer adjust the height. The threads have seized in 3 of them so the right height on mine is no longer adjustable, but is fine with me because I feel I have it dialed in where I wanted them. My shocks are not leaking...yet. Some have had issues with the Megans, I would suggest going with a better coil-over. I would love some K&W or Silks, but they are pretty pricey.

[Jason@SportsCar]

Huh you are right I must have misread. This rulebook really gets to me sometimes. Do you have a suggested alignment? I have the bolts available on micro image and I'm sure nobody at the local events will disqualify me for it. I'm not going to be competing nationally

Your either going to be legal or your not, your the one that has to sleep at night. There is no reason not to use the right bolts.

I would start at -3 (if the factory bolts will get there), with about 1/8" of toe out to start.

[Ben_]

Looking at getting these rims. Good idea?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/391047809336?item=391047809336&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME:X:BOCOR:MOTORS:1123&vxp=mtr

[7:34pm]

I wouldn't spend that much on oem wheels.

Since you're in the US you should have a look on tirerack, their house brand wheels, TRMotorsports, are decent for the money and don't look bad either; lots of autocross guys use them too.

[Ben_]

I've decided to stay in stock class, don't have the budget for stf. So have to use similar to OE rim size 15x5.5 et 45 +-1" diameter +-6mm offset. Trmotorsports sells a sweet 15x7 for $400 but it ain't stock legal. I guess I'll keep looking for a cheaper price on those mini wheels unless someone chimes in on another option

[ilikerice]

Just run a second set of steelies, you can get some for about $100 on craiglist. Throw some good tires on them and call it a day. Yaris isn't that competitive in HS, and if you are just getting into autocross, there is a large learning curve you will need to get past.

I think you got the right idea of staying in Street class. Learn your car and its limits. Your biggest investment will be tires. The best modification to any car is the driver. Over time you can save money and upgrade to better parts i.e. rims, swaybar, shocks.

[Ben_]

I spent all last year learning the car. I went to 26 auto x events and will be finishing the last 5th and 6th "winter cross" season at miller motorsports park in tooele. I spent my first season on 4" steelies with all seasons

I have already purchased the whiteline 22mm rsb and 1 set of MI camber bolts from another forum member yariscupcar. Going to try them out this weekend. Ive saved my money and its time to get more competitive parts for stock class

[Ben_]

I pulled the trigger on the wheels. Guy went down to 325 shipped. Look forward to them coming in the mail, running more camber, and getting some r compounds (205/50-15) once I get my uneven tread wear issue handled. I got about 1200 left to spend on entrance fees, tires, and misc parts ATM and will save more in the coming months

Thanks for all your advice guys. Its great to get some input from other drivers who own this awesome little car and I really appreciate your help and knowledge

[Bluevitz-rs]

I've run my Echo with Koni adjustables and stock springs. But I also have front and rear sway bar upgrades. The handling is amazing, almost better than lowered on my Eibach Pro Kit springs. Being able to dial in your damping forces makes the biggest difference in handling over lowering the ride height an inch.

[Jason@SportsCar]

I pulled the trigger on the wheels. Guy went down to 325 shipped. Look forward to them coming in the mail, running more camber, and getting some r compounds (205/50-15) once I get my uneven tread wear issue handled. I got about 1200 left to spend on entrance fees, tires, and misc parts ATM and will save more in the coming months

Thanks for all your advice guys. Its great to get some input from other drivers who own this awesome little car and I really appreciate your help and knowledge

Rs are not legal in HS. 200+ utqg only.

[7:34pm]

^this, thought they were going to drop it down to 140 but apparently it's still at 200 thread wear for now.

[CrankyOldMan]

^this, thought they were going to drop it down to 140 but apparently it's still at 200 thread wear for now.

They went with a stepped increase from 40 to 200: 2014 was 140 minimum, 2015 is 200 minimum. If you run less than 200, that puts you in Street Prep.

[ilikerice]

Unfortunately the Yaris, Fit and Fiesta are not on the list for Street Prepared class either. They go HS>STF>SMF... I was schooled in an thread before and had to look it up myselft and sure enough, the Yaris is not on the Street Prepared list

[ilikerice]

Wierd, the Mazda 2 and Mini Cooper (non-SC) are listed in the FSP. I don't get it.

[CrankyOldMan]

Strange that they wouldn't go into ESP. I know FSP is more for large displacement rear-wheel drive (Mustang et. al.) and that there isn't an HSP. I suppose it also depends on your region/club and how rigidly they follow the national rules, and what other cars you are competitive with.

[Jason@SportsCar]

Unfortunately the Yaris, Fit and Fiesta are not on the list for Street Prepared class either. They go HS>STF>SMF... I was schooled in an thread before and had to look it up myselft and sure enough, the Yaris is not on the Street Prepared list

That simply means no one has asked for it to be classed - there are a lot of cars that are not classed at various levels. The SEB does not automatically add new models, if no one can be bothered to ask for it, there is no reason for the committee to waste the effort researching and classing it.

[Jason@SportsCar]

Strange that they wouldn't go into ESP. I know FSP is more for large displacement rear-wheel drive (Mustang et. al.) and that there isn't an HSP. I suppose it also depends on your region/club and how rigidly they follow the national rules, and what other cars you are competitive with.

The letters on the classification do not flow from one category to another, once you change categories it is essentially a clean slate.

ESP is the V8 rwd Pony cars, FSP is mostly small bore FWD.

[ilikerice]

Well, may be time for a petition! Thanks Jason

[Jason@SportsCar]

Well, may be time for a petition! Thanks Jason

Its does not require a petition, nor was there a conspiracy to keep the Yaris out while letting the others in, you simply need to submit a single letter to the Solo Events Board asking for it. http://crbscca.com/

[ilikerice]

Thanks! Thread hijack is finished, back to the OP

[CrankyOldMan]

The letters on the classification do not flow from one category to another, once you change categories it is essentially a clean slate.

ESP is the V8 rwd Pony cars, FSP is mostly small bore FWD.

Bah, FS vs ESP always screws me up.

[Ben_]

So here's the mods for hs, I'm hoping to be able to buy them all

I've bought my rims, they are coming in the mail.

I bought some hawk hps pads, but haven't installed them yet. I was planning on reusing the OEM rotors (the pads I removed had minimal wear they got replaced because of cracking from heat damage) but I'm beginning to reconsider reusing the OEM ones and using r1 concepts OEM style

Bought my rear sway bar. It is glorious and changed the feel of the car ENTIRELY

Bought my camber bolts (considering -1.2 camber 0 toe to balance uneven track wear and uneven daily driving wear). Last week at miller motorsports park on the full size track I adjusted for maximum camber without an alignment rack and got somewhat better tread wear. I think this is about -1.8 but I'm just guessing. I think this will be good enough for getting better treadwear for scca events

Look forward to saving money for tokiko reds.

Looking at fabbing an axle back straight pipe, but am also considering the axle backs on garms eBay that are on sale. Choices are straight pipe, DC sports, or tanabe concept g. So to make my decision I want to consider *individually* the performance gains and decibel level

[ilikerice]

To be honest in my opinion. There really isn't any performance gains with an axle back only. You really need to open up the rest of the exhaust to see any gains. Go with something light weight. The oem exhaust is pretty heavy with that huge bubble and extra piping that circles around.

[Ben_]

Got the car aligned today. -1.6 camber and 0 toe.

Wow after looking at the car, it is a HUGE amount of camber. The wheels are sideways!!! [emoji44] [emoji28] plus it looks extra funny with steelies and 195 Micheline defenders. I almost double take because it looks so strange seeing those rims sideways after all these years lol

I found out today with the MI camber bolts the car has a maximum of -2.6 with the toe at 0. The struts are stock and not followed out Caster is in spec.

[Jason@SportsCar]

Got the car aligned today. -1.6 camber and 0 toe.

Wow after looking at the car, it is a HUGE amount of camber. The wheels are sideways!!! [emoji44] [emoji28] plus it looks extra funny with steelies and 195 Micheline defenders. I almost double take because it looks so strange seeing those rims sideways after all these years lol

I found out today with the MI camber bolts the car has a maximum of -2.6 with the toe at 0. The struts are stock and not followed out Caster is in spec.

Its not enough... That wont make a noticeable difference in tire wear or front end grip versus what you previously had. Should have taken the -2.6, and you need a little bit of toe out to help promote low speed turn in.

[CrankyOldMan]

I found that the -1.5 from OEM was a decent enough compromise between stability at highway speeds and cornering on the course. If we had access to top plates, I would be all over a more aggressive camber in autoX.

[Ben_]

^what he said

I've asked about this before and was told that I could not have my cake and eat it too. I am a pizza delivery driver and will be using this car for that on the weekdays and auto x on the weekend. I do notice better handling at daily driving speeds and am currently happy with the set up. I will have to try it on the track and also see how daily tires wear so there is still much to be learned, but I'm happy at the moment.

Will be receiving my new rims soon and buying tires for them when the ones they are coming with are wore out. Will be doing 205/50/15 on a 5.5 wide rim

Still considering whether yo buy new rotors to match my hps pads or to reuse and turn the stock ones if they have enough material

[Jason@SportsCar]

^what he said

I've asked about this before and was told that I could not have my cake and eat it too. I am a pizza delivery driver and will be using this car for that on the weekdays and auto x on the weekend. I do notice better handling at daily driving speeds and am currently happy with the set up. I will have to try it on the track and also see how daily tires wear so there is still much to be learned, but I'm happy at the moment.

Will be receiving my new rims soon and buying tires for them when the ones they are coming with are wore out. Will be doing 205/50/15 on a 5.5 wide rim

Still considering whether yo buy new rotors to match my hps pads or to reuse and turn the stock ones if they have enough material

Camber is not what kills tires, its toe. Daily drove my Corvette and RX-8 with -2.5 in the rear (less in the front because the car could not get it) for years. Got 30k miles out of Pilot Sports on the RX-8 with a full race spec alignment.

Dial in the max camber, set the toe at zero. When you get to the event turn the tie rod to adjust toe on the spot, return it for the drive home. Or do nothing and keep killing tires and giving up time that is there for the taking.

[Ben_]

You guys are awesome for coming on here and schooling me and other noobs on how to run these fun little cars. I have a good deal with the guys at school (I'm going to mechanics school right now) so I can keep messing with my alignment with and without the rack and not go broke.

I'll take that into consideration in the future, with my almost 0 experience I'm going to be trying different things and learning a lot. I'm going to try my current set up for a couple of events and go from there. Its good to know that I can run -2.6 with my current set up and will probably end up trying that in the future with some toe.

I just talked with the tire guy at Costco about keeping my warranty on my daily driving tires/rims when switching out for other sets and he says that I can run a different set and have the guys there swap them for a "winter" set and as long as they see the tires and have paperwork I can run a different set without racking up miles on my warranty. So I can take advantage of the rules to keep my defender tires investment.

Thanks again your guys advice is priceless and it will go a long way to keeping my times low and my wallet at least partially full

[Ben_]

Funny enough, I was just reading the march 2015 scca magazine and it has an article entitled secrets to speed where it says toe is the most important alignment spec for speed. Looks like I might need some toe plates

[Jason@SportsCar]

Funny enough, I was just reading the march 2015 scca magazine and it has an article entitled secrets to speed where it says toe is the most important alignment spec for speed. Looks like I might need some toe plates

What idiot wrote that? lol

Its just part of the equation, and the one that will hurt you the most if its wrong, but you still need the camber.

[Blown_xa]

yea you guys need a lot more negative camber, Im running -3.5 with much stiffer suspension and the temps are perfect across the tire along with even wear. I use -3.5 with R1R's and Hoosiers. Anything below -3 up front is a waste of an alignment IMO ( If you are trying to be competitive)

[Blown_xa]

If you want a primitive means to get your camber in the ballpark, just look at a photo of your car loaded up in turn. You want to use the whole tire... It should be close to strait (under full load in turn) . This is what -3.5 looks like on my car.

[Ben_]

Gangster photo dude. My issue is this is my only car and its dual purpose. For each auto x event I'll put a few hundred miles on the car delivering pizzas to pay for more tires at auto x. I'm trying to be as competitive as possible within my limits and the tough part so far has been finding those limits and taking full advantage. I'll have a good test and tune day on the 1st to see what my current mods are doing and go from there. I'll be buying some rotors to match my hps pads when I get the k&n filter from MI for my oil change. Will probably do transmission oil mt90 too since I'm getting due at 60k hard miles. Will be running my r1rs till they die then getting 205/50/15 r compounds for the new mini phone dials that are coming in the mail next week

I'd love to run a track alignment but I'm trying to be more realistic in how the car is being used

[Ben_]

I don't remember who said this but another member told me -4.5 camber is what he ran to get the best performance. That is super extreme for a street car. One of these days I'll buy a second car and run the yaris track only, but that day hasn't come yet

[Blown_xa]

thanks man! I can understand having to street drive the car. I think when I was daily driving my car a bit over a year ago, I had -2.7 and drove 300 miles or more between events. Tires seems to wear even, it was a good compromise

[Ben_]

What toe setting did you run with that camber setting?

[Bluevitz-rs]

The toe setting is what will destroy daily driven tires. I know. I used to run mild camber at about 1.6° but about ⅛" toe out and the inside edge of the tires wore down. I had an alignment and set the toe to 0 and the tires wear evenly now, but turn in isn't as quick. But I also don't track my car anymore.

[Ben_]

I'm thinking I'll run a track alignment and then buy tires at the junkyard. $16.50 a tire plus $5 mount and balance from my friend who works at les Schwab. I think this is a good plan but it won't happen till I wear out my current r compounds and but my 205/50/15 s for the new rims. Its good to know what I'm running right now won't be too bad on tires so I can protect my current daily tire investment

[Blown_xa]

What toe setting did you run with that camber setting?

I run .05degree in per side, mostly due to road course stuff though. I was fighting stability issues during turn in. However now with aero that might change to running slight tow out, and also because Im setting up my car more for autocross.

[Ben_]

Received the mini wheels today, I will be posting on the aftermarket rims thread with all my different setups after the next auto x when I run my r comps. The rims came with tires that have seen better days and I was hoping to have more life in them, but I can't complain.

Will be working on getting a more aggressive alignment soon. A good time would be when I get my new struts if I have money for them. If I don't get the struts I will probably do a change between the next auto x and the one after