unusual engine swap

[CoryM]

Hey guys,

So I bought a Yaris because I figured I was old, mature and boring enough to accept that the less money I spend on a daily-driver, the more I can play with on other things. Well..... I'm not. The lack of power is starting to seriously grind on me, as is the lack of LSD. I do like the Yaris, and intend to keep it until it is no longer viable to drive it. So I started looking at options, gave up on the 1.5L, and I've pretty much settled on..... an ecotec. I'm talking either the 2.0L S/C (200hp,200ft) or the 2.4L N/A (175hp,165ft). I don't like turbos so that's out.

Now before you get out your pitchforks, let me explain my reasoning:

-toooooorque. Sweet, blessed torque. I don't like low torque/high revving engines (which is why I gave up on the 2zz)
-cheap. Can probably get a wrecked SS cobalt for $500-1000
-LSD. Available in some 2.0L SC, or if go with 2.4L can buy a trans from the turbo cars (price would probably wash out due to lower cost of 2.4L car).
-aftermarket support means cheaper mods later if required
-engine management is free (I already have some GM credits for HPtuners)
-I'm more familiar with GM engines than Toyota
-light enough to not ruin the handling.
-the ecotec powertrain is reasonably reliable, even if the rest of the Cobalt falls apart around it.
-size is doable so long as I don't have to notch the framerails too much.

I am a mechanic, have done several RWD swaps (never a FWD though), and have designed and built a racecar from scratch. In terms of ability, I can do this fairly easy. Budget wise, I figure I could do this for under $2500 so long as I buy the right donor.

Potential issues:
-CV axles. The output of the ecotec trans are quite wide apart. The CVs would be short. I am not sure of how short then can be before issues arise.
-pretty sure the a/c has to go
-P/S. Can you keep this functional w/o the toyota ECU/cluster?

I like the thought of the 2.4L as it runs on 87oct, and can be tuned to around 170whp/170ft with just intake/exhaust. The S/C has potential to make 250whp pretty easy, but the 94oct and less reliability could get tiring (and take $ away from more fun projects). This is still intended to just be a reliable daily driver. Can always bolt a S/C on the 2.4L too if I get bored/rich.

Obviously I need to do some pretty careful measurements before getting too carried away, but initial/rough measurement are promising.

Can anyone think of an issue I will run into not knowing FWD swaps?

Cheers.
Cory

[CTScott]

Space for ample cooling can be an issue with a larger engine swap.

I personally would stick with a Toyota engine, but maybe that's just me.

For power steering, the Yaris EPS is able to stand alone and is a popular choice for retrofitting into small track cars, as it is relatively light. I have sold a couple of sets of Yaris steering columns with PS ECUs for that purpose.

[CoryM]

Thanks Scott.

I can't think of a non-turbo Toyota engine that is small/light enough, has torque, and can get LSD cheaply. I don't really care about brand loyalty, and the ecotec is a fairly solid engine. Like I said, GM powertrain and I get along fairly well.

P/S wise: Without the speed signal from the engine ecu, assist is full power all the time right?. Is there a way to allow it to reduce power assist at speed w/o the toyota ecu?

Thanks.
Cory

[CTScott]

Thanks Scott.

I can't think of a non-turbo Toyota engine that is small/light enough, has torque, and can get LSD cheaply. I don't really care about brand loyalty, and the ecotec is a fairly solid engine. Like I said, GM powertrain and I get along fairly well.

P/S wise: Without the speed signal from the engine ecu, assist is full power all the time right?. Is there a way to allow it to reduce power assist at speed w/o the toyota ecu?

Thanks.
Cory

The PS ECU takes a standard pulse proportional to speed input signal, so you would likely be able to feed it the SPD signal off your new tranny to have it work normally.

[CoryM]

The PS ECU takes a standard pulse proportional to speed input signal, so you would likely be able to feed it the SPD signal off your new tranny to have it work normally.

Nice. That makes it easy.
Thanks as always.

[bronsin]

First person I ever heard who said the Yaris engine wasn't good enough for them! The Yaris engine is 106hp. By comparison the 1972 BMW 2002 TTI (fuel injected) was 100 hp and considered awesome in its day.

I had my ECHO with the same engine up to 106 mph on the NJTPK once when passing a left lane blocker who sped up when you tried to pass him using the center lane.

He matched my speed briefly but backed down when I put my foot on the floor and left it there come what may!

Three other cars (BMWs and MB) tried and failed to get past him. (Saab) Whimps!

1.5 liter Yaris good enough for me!:headbang:

[Bluevitz-rs]

I've seen pictures of a Toyota V6 swapped into a Yaris. Although I think you're stuck with an auto transmission unless you can get a E153 transmission to bolt up.

[nortonfb]

Having owned a 2002 (1974), the thought just brings a smile to my face.
I used a motor out of a '79 320I and a 2 barrel carb and a cam.
Yaris is not in the same universe.
Norton

[CoryM]

The 1.5L is a great little engine. It's just the "little" part that is the problem for me. It's about 1.0L too small. All I want is around 180-200hp with good torque,LSD, and still handle. Turbos are out, the blitz is too spendy ( I've looked at using other, cheaper blowers too), and then I still need to throw $500-1000 to get LSD. The 2zz has the power, but up to 5000rpm I may as well have the 1.5L. 2zz is also expensive and hard to find. Other toyota motors are way too heavy.

I could probably find a suitable cobalt donor in a month or two. $1000 or less to buy the car, $200 in cooling, $200 in fuel, re-use what exhaust possible, mounts $50, air intake $100, $50 in electrical, CV axle respline $200, clutch fittings/pedal ($200 worse case scenario), $100 in raw materials.

Then sell whatever I can from the donor cobalt to reduce cost. Even if I end up spending $3-4k on it, it's still less than a Blitz, has way more power and a LSD. Weight is probably only 150-200lbs more so won't ruin handling. And this is talking about the 2.4L with OE reliability and on 87octane.

I have to admit, this is a very polite forum. I was expecting more flaming for bastardizing a Yaris :laugh: I'm going to continue to look into it and take some careful measurements. It probably wouldn't be until next summer that I do it (this summer is to play with the 300hp, 1700lb racecar :biggrin:)

Thanks for any input; positive or negative.
Cory

[3cyltrbo]

Thanks Scott.

I can't think of a non-turbo Toyota engine that is small/light enough, has torque, and can get LSD cheaply. I don't really care about brand loyalty, and the ecotec is a fairly solid engine. Like I said, GM powertrain and I get along fairly well.

P/S wise: Without the speed signal from the engine ecu, assist is full power all the time right?. Is there a way to allow it to reduce power assist at speed w/o the toyota ecu?

Thanks.
Cory

K20 from Honda!!!!.

The K series absolutely crushes any Toyota 4cyl or the Ecotec for that matter.

Also, the K20A is quite small (externally) and has its ancillaries in similar locations to the 1NZFE (intake on drivers side / exhaust manifold on the back etc...)

Honestly I don't know why someone hasn't thought of it before (the K20A). Even the "regular" version from the base RSX and the EP3 Civic is a great motor and can be had pretty cheap.

Or what about a K24 from Accords and the CRV, they are a dime a dozen and if you want torque!......................................:thum bsup:

As for swapping in a Toyota 1.8litre......................why bother? If you're already talking about modifications to frame rails / wiring harness etc... why not just put something decent in?

I've got two cars with the Toyota 1.8 in different tunes (Mr2 Spyder and Pontiac Vibe), granted they aren't the version with VVTli, but I've also driven that engine in a Celica GTs. I'm here to tell you that the K20 crushes all the Toyota 1.8 variants ....... in all aspects, hands down (that's why people are starting to swap K20's into everything from RX7's to S2000's to MR2 Spyders) Hell, there are even guys on the MR2Spyder message boards that are taking out their stupid 1.8's and swapping in the 1NZFE with boost.

Cliffs Notes = go drive a 2006/7 Civic Si and then imagine that engine in a car 600lbs lighter

Will

[WeeYari]

Honestly I don't know why someone hasn't thought of it before (the K20A). Even the "regular" version from the base RSX and the EP3 Civic is a great motor and can be had pretty cheap.

There have been a few done. Here is one of them http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49933

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52940&stc=1&d=1393109340

[junorico24]

First person I ever heard who said the Yaris engine wasn't good enough for them! The Yaris engine is 106hp. By comparison the 1972 BMW 2002 TTI (fuel injected) was 100 hp and considered awesome in its day.

I had my ECHO with the same engine up to 106 mph on the NJTPK once when passing a left lane blocker who sped up when you tried to pass him using the center lane.

He matched my speed briefly but backed down when I put my foot on the floor and left it there come what may!

Three other cars (BMWs and MB) tried and failed to get past him. (Saab) Whimps!

1.5 liter Yaris good enough for me!:headbang:

Why y0u picking 0n 0lder cars. The Mazda 2, suzuki swift, and maybe even the Hyundai accent can get by a Yaris. L0L.

The 1.5 engine is fantastic, n0t great. I have had it since brand new back then it was a sm00th and can get up hills n0 pr0b.

As they get 0ld they are sl0w.I w0uld upgrade t0 s0mething with a bit m0re p0p. K20 0r 2zr that can keep pr0viding that p0wer.

[7:34pm]

I enter this sub forum every day hoping for some break-through performance discovery or plug and play engine swap.

The K20a3 swap would indeed be killer. Wonder if the motor can mount to the trans with an adapter or the trans has to be swapped as well.

[3cyltrbo]

There have been a few done. Here is one of them http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49933

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52940&stc=1&d=1393109340

ZOMG WTF BBQ

:thanks:

:evil:

:eek:

[CoryM]

K20 from Honda!!!!.

The K series absolutely crushes any Toyota 4cyl or the Ecotec for that matter.


I definitely considered the K20 from 06+ Civic Si as they come with LSD, and there are enough of them around to actually find a donor. I opted for the ecotec over it for a few reasons:

-Cost of donor. Can get an ecotec for much less
-For me, engine management for the ecotec is free.
-Biggest reason- the K20 compares closer to the S/C ecotec in terms of reliability (8K redline is asking a lot) and cost to operate (premium fuel). The ecotech has the same power, and 60ft/lbs more torque. That's huge. Plus much easier/cheaper to get more power when desired.

While the K20 would be a great choice for some (probably better as a track-day engine), I want low revving torque for my daily-driver/winter-autoX car. Torque is what you can actually use on the street, where as high-revving K20s take a while to get going (and by then it's too late or unsafe to do what you wanted anyhow).

I'm still leaning towards the 2.4L NA though as 87octane is nice, and 170whp/170ftlbs would be decent in the Yaris. But 94 octane with the 2.0L S/C would get me 240whp really easy/safely..... so tempting.

Thanks for the input.
Cory

[ilikerice]

Quick question.. in SCCA Solo events. Street Modified allows you to swap motors as long as they are from the same manufacturer. So, putting a Honda motor in a Toyota, that puts you in Modified class, correct? This is territory I have not done research on and curious is anyone has already done this. I will read up on it later, but right now, not the time.

[CoryM]

Quick question.. in SCCA Solo events. Street Modified allows you to swap motors as long as they are from the same manufacturer. So, putting a Honda motor in a Toyota, that puts you in Modified class, correct? This is territory I have not done research on and curious is anyone has already done this. I will read up on it later, but right now, not the time.

Yeah. Mod class which (around here at least) you are going to get killed. My +10°C tires are NT01s so I'm in HS-R. STF seems to be the best chance to PAX win.
Cheers.

[invader166]

I don't wanna be an ass or anything, you know exactly what you want and how to get it, but since this is Toyota, have you ever considered going hybrid?

There's been news about a Hybrid-R since 2013 and I believe the powertrain will be tested to the max in the upcoming 2017 WRC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09J6kF3tQds

Who knows, might be worth waiting for?:iono:

http://www.testdriven.co.uk/toyota-yaris-hybrid-r/

[CoryM]

The instant torque of DC motors is a lot of fun. However, I've been around a couple electric (performance) cars and there are too many issues with them. I also don't like when the car does things without me telling it to (abs, traction control, regenerative braking etc). I just like to know the car is going to do exactly what I tell it to do.
Cheers.

[woops]

Have you considered a 2ZZ-GE?

[CoryM]

Have you considered a 2ZZ-GE?

Yeah. Was the first one I considered until I looked at the dyno charts. The torque curve is horrible, and up to 5000rpm it's basically the same as what I have now. So either: I constantly rev the nuts off it to enjoy it (killing the engine), or I don't even know it's there. It also needs premium fuel, so again, compares to the S/C 2.0L ecotec which has 200hp,200ft/lbs (60ft/lbs more and basically has 200ft/lbs from 2000rpm+). Even the NA 2.4L would probably beat the 2zzge in a race... on 87octane. A high revving, low torque engine is no fun at all IMO (except for trackdays). I want to put my foot down and go, not foot down and..... waiting.... more rpms...... 6000rpm finally! and immediately shift. Then feel bad because you just revved your daily driver to 8000rpm.

Thanks for the input though.
Cory

[ilikerice]

My 2 cents:

factory motors are disigned to run as hard and as long without getting into the redline. The thing that wears a motor out the most is turning the key to start the motor because in that 1-2 seconds, the bearings do not have oil flowing through them at that time. I have been autocrossing my yaris since 2010 when I bought it brand new with 10 miles on it. That same weekend, I put 100 miles on it, threw some R-comp tires on it and started autocrossing. Since then, I have autocrossed at least once a month, 4 track days and its still my daily driver that I just clocked in at 73k miles on it.

You can run that 2zz all day long just below redline and should not have an issue.

But i do understand what you are looking for in a motor. In the end, it is your car, it is your money, all you can do is gather as much information about what your goals are and run with it..

Good luck, whatever you do, it will be awesome!

[7:34pm]

K20a3 from the base rsx, they're cheap and abundant. 160 hp and 140 torque would be fun. I've seen these motors and trans go for about $800-$1200. Maybe you won't even need the trans if you can build an adapter and make it work.

Or if you feel like spending an extra $4000 do the K20a

[fnkngrv]

I would love to see someone do a 2gr-fe swap. 270whp baseline with a ton of torque. If someone stuffed a 3g in then the 2gr should go with work.

[CoryM]

I would love to see someone do a 2gr-fe swap. 270whp baseline with a ton of torque.

That's because you land-speed guys don't care about cornering :tongue:
Not sure what that weighs, but knowing Toyota... probably a lot.

[fnkngrv]

If you run a proper suspension setup it should be a non issue. Also can't be too much more weight than a 2zz.

[SirDigby]

it's too bad you don't like turbo. if you want maximum power with minimum weight i'd go with a 13b. it'd be hard to do fwd, but if you did a awd matrix rear end and a custom driveshaft you can do however much power you wanted....reliable 700hp yaris would be sweet