Yaris Spanks Hybrids in Environmentally Friendliness in Dust to Dust report

[nsmitchell]

http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/

Scroll down to row 412 in the Cost per mile by segment by model and sorts.xls (http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/Cost%20per%20mile%20by%20segment%20by%20model%20an d%20sorts.xls) and start reading.

Fascinating stuff!

[redyaris]

So why cant i drive in the high occupancy vehicle (HOV) lane like the Prius?

[BailOut]

You have to be careful what information you spread. Art Spinella (CNW Marketing Research - the site you linked to) has been debunked in so many ways and from so many sources that it's surprising he hasn't pulled this "data" yet. He just continues to embarrass himself by keeping it up there, and the media just keep parroting it (yet another example of how the modern media doesn't bother to research anything themselves).

Here are a few debunking examples:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Green_Car_News/Prius_Versus_HUMMER_Exploding_the_Myth.S196.A12220 .html

http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=26909

[nsmitchell]

Consider this spanking then...

You would save about $2700.00 in gas over a Yaris after driving a Prius 100,000 miles.

Prius = 60 city and 51 hwy Combined is 55 MPG
Yaris = 34 city and 39 hwy Combined is 36 MPG

So to drive 100000 miles at $3.00 per gal:
Prius = 100000 / 55 = 1,900 gallons X 3.00 = $5700.00
Yaris = 100000 / 36 = 2,800 gallons X 3.00 = $8400.00

A savings of $2700.00 total to drive 100000 miles.

But the Prius cost at least $10,000.00 more. Hmmm...

So basically to go 100,000 miles costs a "Base Model Prius" driver $25,000 for the car and $5,700.00 in gas = $30,700.00
A "Maxed Out Yaris" costs $15,000.00 for the car and $8,400 in gas = $23,400.00
A difference of $7,300.00 or 2,433 gallons of gas.

The Yaris could drive an extra 3.6 times around the world with the money a Yaris would save! (2433 X 36MPG = 87588 / 24000 = 3.6 times around the world)

Or, you would need to drive that Prius for around 20 more years at 10,000 miles a year to break even with the Yaris.

Prius = 300000 miles/55mpg = 5454 gallons X $3.00 = $16362 + $25000 = $41,362.00

Yaris = 300000 miles/36mpg = 8333 gallons X 3.00 = $25000 + $15000 = $40,000.00

Don't forget hybrid battery replacement costs!

Oh Snap!!

Advantage Yaris!


This is an excerpt from an email to a friend about a Prius vs a Yaris in saving money after he made the statement "If you want to save money you should have bought a Prius."

[nsmitchell]

I would love for someone to plug this stuff in a spreadsheet and work the numbers. I was using the old MPG figures. And no real world figures. Too lazy and I'm not an Excel buff. hehe

[ceres]

Don't forget you get a tax break when you purchase a hybrid. Not sure it's total effect though.

[flint_mica_manual]

This whole thread is moot. Like most wacky right wing chicanery, the post is titled "Yaris Spanks Hybrids in Environmentally Friendliness" and then goes on to talk about how much it costs to run per mile while admitting that the prius burns less gas.

The prius is more carbon friendly--whilest being more expensive. People who buy priuses are clearly more interested in its carbon footprint rather than how much it costs to run. If they have the money for that, I say more power to them.

All the same, the logic of the post has nothing to do with its headline. It should have been titled "Yaris Spanks Hybrids in cheapness per mile", but then, who would reply to such an obvious statement.

[nsmitchell]

I have yet to see any proof that the report is flawed. Even the publications that don't fully agree with it can't say all of it is bad data. I'm quite sure the Prius owners will instantly get red faced with anger when they read the report, so posting stuff from PriusChat doesn't prove anything.

[flint_mica_manual]

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/20/1858204&from=rss

Throughly hashed out on Slashdot

[Yaris Revenge]

I think what I'm seeing here is "Wallet-friendliness", not necessarily "Environmental-friendliness". The total amount spent overall doesn't reflect the amount of fuel burned, which is ultimately where the eco-friendly part comes in.

However, both are good in my book! :thumbsup:

~YR

[nsmitchell]

Here is a good read. http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060719.shtml

Don't dismiss the results so quickly. What seems to be a joke might actually have the ring of truth.

These ratings seem to correlate with the complexity of the car, as well as resources used. It is a very granular study.

[flint_mica_manual]

Here is a good read. http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060719.shtml

Don't dismiss the results so quickly. What seems to be a joke might actually have the ring of truth.

These ratings seem to correlate with the complexity of the car, as well as resources used. It is a very granular study.

Real Numbers
http://newsdesk.inl.gov/press_releases/2004/06-23hybrid_vehicle.htm

[Yaris Revenge]

Real Numbers
http://newsdesk.inl.gov/press_releases/2004/06-23hybrid_vehicle.htm

That report only calculates in maintenance, not initial energy spent to produce the vehicle.

~YR

[flint_mica_manual]

That report only calculates in maintenance, not initial energy spent to produce the vehicle.

~YR

Doesn't matter, the bogus CNW Marketing Research site, and the circular "reason" site that uses it for reference lists the prius at 100,000 mile lifespan -- which makes no sense.

[nsmitchell]

Excerpt from the report (page 47):

One thing is clear. The typical hybrid small vehicle such as the Prius is driven far fewer miles
each year than a comparably sized budget car. And for good reason. Like Upper Premium Sports
cars, these are generally secondary vehicles in a household OR they are driven in restricted or
short range environments such as college campuses or retirement neighborhoods. Clearly both of
those are generalizations and there are exceptions, but nonetheless this is a reality of automotive
use.
Based on the average mileage and life expectancy, there is a wide range of years that certain
models will be on the road before being scrapped. This ranges from a low of 10 years to as much
as 20-plus years. As segments, the lowest number of years are Hybrid models as a group (12.1
years) while the highest segment is Premium SUVs such as the Range Rover and Hummer H2
(22.2 years).
End of Excerpt:

Please read page 48 of the report. It explains things a bit better.

Sometimes statistics aren't pretty and sometimes they expose weaknesses.

Read some Freakonomics for some real eye openers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freakonomics

[nsmitchell]

Doesn't matter, the bogus CNW Marketing Research site, and the circular "reason" site that uses it for reference lists the prius at 100,000 mile lifespan -- which makes no sense.

You are just proving the point that you didn't take any time to READ THE REPORT. It goes into great detail about the much typed about but seldom read lifespans of the vehicles, and their methodology of how they came about. I realize other sites are quick to judge, but they could have done exactly what you did. Knee jerk reaction.

[BailOut]

One thing is clear. The typical hybrid small vehicle such as the Prius is driven far fewer miles each year than a comparably sized budget car. And for good reason. Like Upper Premium Sports cars, these are generally secondary vehicles in a household OR they are driven in restricted or short range environments such as college campuses or retirement neighborhoods.
This is complete, utter, total, shameful, fairyland, unicorn-shat crap. The (for example) Prius is most commonly a household's main vehicle, and as you can read on just about any hybrid site on the Net most folks stop driving their secondary cars pretty much altogether in favor of their hybrid.


As segments, the lowest number of years are Hybrid models as a group (12.1years) while the highest segment is Premium SUVs such as the Range Rover and Hummer H2
This is complete, utter, total, shameful, fairyland, unicorn-shat crap. For one thing hybrids haven't even been on the road but for 10 years now in Japan, and for just 6 years in the rest of the world, so it is impossible to know that folks will be dumping them at the 12 year point. Additionally, even 1st generation hybrids like the Insight and Prius I tend to sell for exactly as much as they were bought for, even at a second resale, which means they are well in demand and have expected longevity. Let's also not forget that the typical Toyota car is good for at least 300,000 miles and the typical Honda is good for at least 200,000. It will take longer than 12 years for most folks to hit those mileage counts. Conversely the average American car is an 80,000 mile disposable vehicle. Keeping anything GMC or the others have built on the road for 20 years takes so much repair, maintenance, upgrades, etc. that to not take that into account in the "study" (I use the term quite loosely) is a crime.



Again, please be careful what information you spread. There is enough FUD, disinformation, misdirection and other generally bad information in the world without any of us adding to it or propagating it.

[static808]

I think what I'm seeing here is "Wallet-friendliness", not necessarily "Environmental-friendliness". The total amount spent overall doesn't reflect the amount of fuel burned, which is ultimately where the eco-friendly part comes in.

However, both are good in my book! :thumbsup:

~YR

+1
there are three priuses (prii??) in my family (1 blood, 2 in-laws), and not a single one of them bought it for its super low emissions or its eco-friendliness. they simply bought it because the sticker said 60 mpg city, and they were sold. i THINK the majority of people buying the prius are in it for the gas savings and mpg, more so than the ecological factors. this would explain the record sales of the prius coinciding when gas prices were at record highs. when we bought our yaris, and started sharing our mpg experience, 2 out of the 3 owners immediately began getting second thought on their prius purchase. the 3rd was happy with the prius since the prius is ridiculously roomy inside, and they need the cargo space. they all use their prius as the primary cars, since the mpg + utility factor trump any reason to use another car. we're perfectly happy with our yaris, but would love to see more economically viable (aka CHEAPER!) hybrid technology incorporated into more cars...

--B

[Yaris Revenge]

This is complete, utter, total, shameful, fairyland, unicorn-shat crap. The (for example) Prius is most commonly a household's main vehicle, and as you can read on just about any hybrid site on the Net most folks stop driving their secondary cars pretty much altogether in favor of their hybrid.



This is complete, utter, total, shameful, fairyland, unicorn-shat crap. For one thing hybrids haven't even been on the road but for 10 years now in Japan, and for just 6 years in the rest of the world, so it is impossible to know that folks will be dumping them at the 12 year point. Additionally, even 1st generation hybrids like the Insight and Prius I tend to sell for exactly as much as they were bought for, even at a second resale, which means they are well in demand and have expected longevity. Let's also not forget that the typical Toyota car is good for at least 300,000 miles and the typical Honda is good for at least 200,000. It will take longer than 12 years for most folks to hit those mileage counts. Conversely the average American car is an 80,000 mile disposable vehicle. Keeping anything GMC or the others have built on the road for 20 years takes so much repair, maintenance, upgrades, etc. that to not take that into account in the "study" (I use the term quite loosely) is a crime.



Again, please be careful what information you spread. There is enough FUD, disinformation, misdirection and other generally bad information in the world without any of us adding to it or propagating it.

BailOut, I agree with you that the Prius is more a household vehicle than anything else. I've never spotted a fleet Prius, and a hybrid as a secondary vehicle honestly makes no sense.

However, I have to disagree with your American "80,000 mile disposable vehicle" comment. Toyotas may be good for 300k miles, but I've certainly never seen one. How many 1970-1980 model Japanese cars do you see running around out there? Not nearly as many as you do American cars. I'm not saying one's better than the other, I'm just saying that people tend to hang on to the American cars longer (why I can't say), thus ultimately the American cars are the ones racking up the higher mileages.

~YR

[flint_mica_manual]

You are just proving the point that you didn't take any time to READ THE REPORT. It goes into great detail about the much typed about but seldom read lifespans of the vehicles, and their methodology of how they came about. I realize other sites are quick to judge, but they could have done exactly what you did. Knee jerk reaction.

Yes I did, the report's methodology is flawed. It is right-wing shill.

[nsmitchell]

I see no proof that the Prius lasts as long as some may think ON AVERAGE. Sure some Priuses may last over that mileage. For example, did you know that leaving a Prius to sit without driving it for over two weeks will void the warranty on the battery? Well now! http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_prius_battery.html. Only hybrids will have this issue. How about all the extra electronics needed for the hybrid system. Can a mechanic fix all that stuff if it gets gremlins? Not really. Mostly, the car is disposable. The cost to fix it may cost more than the car is worth. All these things are taken into account. Believe me, I was sceptical too, until I READ THE REPORT. It explains about why the numbers seem out of whack. "right-wing shill"?? How come, if they were trying to boost GM sales or something, they would list the xB as the least impact? Doesn't that strike anyone as odd. And the highest impact vehicles are the most COMPLEX, not necessarily the most expensive, or gas guzzling, or sipping for that matter. Come on folks, it's not black and white. The Earth is round, not flat like most people believed before proven otherwise. Sometimes things aren't as simple as they seem at first glance.

[PetersRedYaris]

...However, I have to disagree with your American "80,000 mile disposable vehicle" comment. Toyotas may be good for 300k miles, but I've certainly never seen one. ~YR

How have you never seen one? I see lots of extremley high mile Toyotas and Hondas, but have only seen a couple high mile American made cars. In fact the only really high mile American made cars I have seen are trucks, in particular Dodge Cummins with ~750,000 miles. I have NEVER seen an American car with 300,000+ miles, and cars are a hobby of mine.

Maybe people hold onto their American cars beceause they are worth nothing with over 100,000 miles. No resale = keep it...

[IllusionX]

for traveling short distances... ppl have also modified their prius to plug-in charge the vehicule every night.
some ppl have managed to get over 250 USMPG!!!

search plug in hybrid on google. Though, it would be a really bad idea if your home electricity is charcoal or oil powered...

[Andrew Chalmers]

Uh... so how do these generalizations apply to the individual driver? These "reports" say what?

btw - nsmitchell... most people assume things to be false until proven to be true... it isn't up to other ppl to demonstrate that the report is wrong - but up to the authors to demonstrate that its true. Assumptions made about consumer/driver habits without data = baseless assumptions.

[spkrman]

How have you never seen one? I see lots of extremley high mile Toyotas and Hondas, but have only seen a couple high mile American made cars. In fact the only really high mile American made cars I have seen are trucks, in particular Dodge Cummins with ~750,000 miles. I have NEVER seen an American car with 300,000+ miles, and cars are a hobby of mine.

Maybe people hold onto their American cars beceause they are worth nothing with over 100,000 miles. No resale = keep it...

x2...

This is why everyone tends to unload their cars before 100k, or swap it for a beater... yet if you have a toyota/etc you just keep on chuggin, you know it'll last another 100k without flinching.

btw by end cost... I'm sure a used, POS but good mechanical condition metro would lay the smack down on any hybrid or yaris :)

[graywolf_14]

It is great everyone is talking about mpg and the environment. I cant get approved for a car so I am getting a $250 83 pontiac grand prix than when I get a job in the town I live I will hopefully end up putting in a 455 with a few mods. It will maby get 18mpg and the tires I go through alone will create more bad stuff than the yaris motor does.

[spkrman]

It is great everyone is talking about mpg and the environment. I cant get approved for a car so I am getting a $250 83 pontiac grand prix than when I get a job in the town I live I will hopefully end up putting in a 455 with a few mods. It will maby get 18mpg and the tires I go through alone will create more bad stuff than the yaris motor does.

is that your way of stickin it to the man for not letting you have a yaris? :iono:

[graywolf_14]

no I had one before and this was my plan with that one. I will probley end up getting a motor cycle and eather sell the pontiac or keep it for a toy. I would rather have a mustang or a monte carlo ss or somehting like that. Shoot I would love a talon tsi or a z car but right now I cant seem to get anything. I just like the thought of a 300hp big motored car right now. Hell or I will keep it and get a small truck I could have a use for a truck.

[wagoneer]

If you are plugging in a Prius to the wall at night....

then 250 mpg means you burn less gas, but you are burning more coal from the power plant to charge it up.

If we could plug our cars in and be totally electric and get infinite miles per gallon of gas (because we don't burn any) we would still be burning coal.

Coal is around 55% of power production in the u.s.
Nuclear is around 21%
Natural gas is ?
"renewables" are ?

nothing is free

to be eco friendly, we should just kill ourselves.

[flint_mica_manual]

How about all the extra electronics needed for the hybrid system. Can a mechanic fix all that stuff if it gets gremlins? Not really. Mostly, the car is disposable. The cost to fix it may cost more than the car is worth. All these things are taken into account. Believe me, I was sceptical too, until I READ THE REPORT. It explains about why the numbers seem out of whack. "right-wing shill"?? How come, if they were trying to boost GM sales or something, they would list the xB as the least impact? Doesn't that strike anyone as odd. And the highest impact vehicles are the most COMPLEX, not necessarily the most expensive, or gas guzzling, or sipping for that matter. Come on folks, it's not black and white. The Earth is round, not flat like most people believed before proven otherwise. Sometimes things aren't as simple as they seem at first glance.

Your logic is faulty. How on earth can you say that an electric car is more complex than a gasoline engine? A Prius is basically an electric car with a gasoline engine bolted on to recharge the batteries. Electric drive trains are infinitively simpler than the alternative. An electrical motor is a shaft with some wire and magnets. That's it. Compare that to a gasoline motor with cams, gears, transmissions, rods, pistons, bearing, all kinds of stuff. . .and if that wasn't all, you have to keep all that stuff in time or it self destructs. PLUS, all those parts are wearing on each other constantly for the life of the vehicle.

Electric motors have no such problems, and they have more power -- more efficiently put to the wheels.

Look at the Honda Incite. The first one came out about 10 years ago. Where are all the internet reports about people being ticked off because the batteries died? Or because the drive train failed?

Period. That report you cite makes claims that are not verified because they don't even disclose their methodology. And you want someone to "prove" it wrong.

That's right. Toyota became the world's largest automotive company by investing in wasteful technologies. If only they could get a business model as good as Hummer's!

It's not like hybrid technology is old either. Just because it's new and novel in the automotive world, doesn't mean it's an unproven technology. Have you ever seen a diesel train? Around here they are big black Norfolk Southern monsters that haul thousands of Toyota Tundras out of Princeton. Believe it or not, those trains are ELECTRIC. The diesel engines are just there to run the generators that power those huge electric engines that pull all the weight.

Tho, I dunno, maybe you could find a study of how much more complicated and wasteful they are compared to a coal fired steam engine. We got rid of those in favor of these "new fangled" disposable diesel electric hybrid trains. Freaking luddite.

[rant mode off]

Happy Friday!

[Yaris Revenge]

I see lots of extremley high mile Toyotas and Hondas, but have only seen a couple high mile American made cars I have NEVER seen an American car with 300,000+ miles, and cars are a hobby of mine.
Probably because the ones that do have that many miles have tripped the odometer 3 or 4 times. Can you honestly say you see more old Japanese cars on the road than old American cars? Crazy talk.


Maybe people hold onto their American cars beceause they are worth nothing with over 100,000 miles. No resale = keep it...
Very, very possible. :biggrin: But by conceding that people do hang on to American cars longer, doesn't that contradict your point about Japanese cars having higher overall mileage? :confused:

~YR

[static808]

Can you honestly say you see more old Japanese cars on the road than old American cars? Crazy talk.



~YR

in my neck of the woods, most of the older cars (all the way from the 70s) are definitely american, and most of them are ford and chevy pickups. i kinda figure that a higher number of old american cars would be on the road due to cultural changes. back then, an american would buy a ford or chevy and drive it until its wheels fell off. the influx of japanese cars really picked up heat when the automotive culture changed, and people in general started trading in their cars after 4-5 years. its really tough to generalize this topic though. from personal experience, most 10 year old cars i see are camrys and accords. however, if you get into the 15-20 year old car range, you start to see a bunch of cutlass supremes and le sabres. older than that, and you get into the ford pickup and classic vw bug range...

--B

[flint_mica_manual]

i kinda figure that a higher number of old american cars would be on the road due to cultural changes. back then, an american would buy a ford or chevy and drive it until its wheels fell off.

--B

I see quite a few high millage imports around here. But I think your culture comment is valid tho. The reason the "wheels fell off" was due to age not mileage. Old American cars simply don't have that many miles on them, because a generation ago, people didn't commute 60 miles to work like they do today. It took me 5 years to drive 140,000 miles on top of the 91,000 that came with my old geo storm -- that's over 75 miles a day. Nobody, or very few anyway, did that 25 years ago. . .and certainly not in an old C-10 pickup. Most old American cars I've seen have under 100,000 miles. This talk of putting over 300,000 on some american car from the 80's is craziness -- unless it was a diesel owned by a mailman.

Anyone wants to dispute that, then I want a picture of an odometer. I've seen plenty of old American cars, and they all have low miles and eventually end up in demolition derbies.

[static808]

I see quite a few high millage imports around here. But I think your culture comment is valid tho. The reason the "wheels fell off" was due to age not mileage. Old American cars simply don't have that many miles on them, because a generation ago, people didn't commute 60 miles to work like they do today. It took me 5 years to drive 140,000 miles on top of the 91,000 that came with my old geo storm -- that's over 75 miles a day. Nobody, or very few anyway, did that 25 years ago. . .and certainly not in an old C-10 pickup. Most old American cars I've seen have under 100,000 miles. This talk of putting over 300,000 on some american car from the 80's is craziness -- unless it was a diesel owned by a mailman.

Anyone wants to dispute that, then I want a picture of an odometer. I've seen plenty of old American cars, and they all have low miles and eventually end up in demolition derbies.

u know what? you brought up a very good point that i have failed to recognize. there is a difference between high mileage cars and older cars. most of the older american cars that i see on the road are driven by, of course, older americans!! im sure that they dont have the travel distances or commutes that younger people have nowadays. and i do agree that some 5 year old camrys/accords have much more mileage than 15 year old buicks and oldsmobiles. if you take a quick peek at the used auto ads, that should serve as evidence. good point...

--B

[nsmitchell]

Your logic is faulty. How on earth can you say that an electric car is more complex than a gasoline engine? A Prius is basically an electric car with a gasoline engine bolted on to recharge the batteries. Electric drive trains are infinitively simpler than the alternative. An electrical motor is a shaft with some wire and magnets. That's it. Compare that to a gasoline motor with cams, gears, transmissions, rods, pistons, bearing, all kinds of stuff. . .and if that wasn't all, you have to keep all that stuff in time or it self destructs. PLUS, all those parts are wearing on each other constantly for the life of the vehicle.

Electric motors have no such problems, and they have more power -- more efficiently put to the wheels.

Look at the Honda Incite. The first one came out about 10 years ago. Where are all the internet reports about people being ticked off because the batteries died? Or because the drive train failed?

Period. That report you cite makes claims that are not verified because they don't even disclose their methodology. And you want someone to "prove" it wrong.

That's right. Toyota became the world's largest automotive company by investing in wasteful technologies. If only they could get a business model as good as Hummer's!

It's not like hybrid technology is old either. Just because it's new and novel in the automotive world, doesn't mean it's an unproven technology. Have you ever seen a diesel train? Around here they are big black Norfolk Southern monsters that haul thousands of Toyota Tundras out of Princeton. Believe it or not, those trains are ELECTRIC. The diesel engines are just there to run the generators that power those huge electric engines that pull all the weight.

Tho, I dunno, maybe you could find a study of how much more complicated and wasteful they are compared to a coal fired steam engine. We got rid of those in favor of these "new fangled" disposable diesel electric hybrid trains. Freaking luddite.

[rant mode off]

Happy Friday!

So you don't think the HYBRID SYSTEM is complex. To make the electric motor and gas motor play nice nice together IS complex. They have lots of sensors and onboard computers to make sure they run smoothly together and max out mileage. Also a Prius at $25K is being sold by Toyota at a loss of about $3K. So a Prius is actually a $28K car. Why? Because it is quite a bit more complex than a Yaris at $13K. Good Grief! More expensive components that make up the hybrid system. More expensive to make, more, more more, etc... More complex machines to build the more complex parts. Those machines need servicing, maintenance by more skilled people ...yadayadayada... This all adds up. Open your mind a little. Do you actually think someone would write a report just to poo poo hybrid cars? That is why I thought the report was fascinating. All of the arguments against the report are so weak. I'm not just talking about the XLS file, look at the PDF files as well.

[flint_mica_manual]

Open your mind a little. Do you actually think someone would write a report just to poo poo hybrid cars? That is why I thought the report was fascinating. All of the arguments against the report are so weak. I'm not just talking about the XLS file, look at the PDF files as well.

This isn’t about having an open mind. It’s about critical thinking.

I have searched high and low to find info about this supposed story, and the only thing out there is the original study, right-wing sites linking to the original article (with cutesy latte-drinking-hollywood-loving-liberal-pinko-status-symbol comments from right wing filth to boot), and a bunch of forums talking about the original study. Where is the peer review? How did they get their data? Who PAID for this “study”? NOBODY freaking knows.

These are the hybrids that are or have been on the market for the last 20 years. Where is the data for these cars? WHY is the Toyota singled out in this “study”?

I, quite honestly, am done “debating” this nonsense. Nothing I can say will change your mind, and I’m not going to change my mind until I see something other than flame wars and ONE dubious “study” that is ridiculous in its conclusions.

1989 Audi 300 Duo
1994 Audi 80 Duo
1996 AC Propulsion tzero (primarily electric vehicle; 80 mile PbA, 300 mile Li-ion(2003) EV-mode)
1997 Toyota Prius (first commercially mass-produced and marketed hybrid automobile) Japanese market only
1997 Audi A4 Duo (Audi became the first manufacturer in Europe to mass produce a hybrid vehicle. Their hybrid vehicle is powered by a 66 kW 1.9-litre TDI-Engine and a 21 kW electric motor)
1999 Honda Insight 2000 model
[edit] 2000s
2000 Toyota Estima hybrid (Japanese market only)
2000 Toyota Prius US market
2002? Mazda Demio e-4WD (Japanese market only, used for traction assistance)
2002 New Flyer DE60LF (diesel-electric hybrid articulated bus)
2002 Dyna Diesel Hybrid (Japan only, Diesel Hybrid)
2002 Honda Civic Hybrid 2003 model
[edit] 2003
Renault Kangoo (plug-in hybrid electric vehicle)
Suzuki Twin
Toyota Alphard Hybrid
Toyota Prius (5 seat midsize) 2004 model year, second generation Hybrid Synergy Drive
[edit] 2004
Honda Accord Hybrid 2005 model
Ford Escape Hybrid 2005 model (released in late summer 2004)
General Motors city bus
[edit] 2005
Chevrolet Silverado/GMC Sierra Hybrid 2006 model, Mild hybrid
Honda Civic Hybrid 2006 model, second generation
Lexus RX 400h 2006 model year, second generation Hybrid Synergy Drive
Mercury Mariner hybrid
Toyota Kluger/Highlander Hybrid 2006 model
[edit] 2006
Lexus GS 450h 2007 model, second generation Hybrid Synergy Drive
Saturn VUE Green Line 2007 model, Mild hybrid
Toyota Camry Hybrid 2007 model, second generation Hybrid Synergy Drive
Toyota Estima/Previa hybrid minivan, second generation Hybrid Synergy Drive (Japanese market only)
[edit] 2007
Nissan Altima Hybrid (limited sales)
Saturn Aura Green Line Hybrid (BAS) 2008 model, Mild hybrid

[nsmitchell]

Excerpt from the report.

Second is the issue with the actual production of the batteries for the hybrid cars. It is only slowly being revealed that the nickel batteries that hybrids use are not environmentally friendly. The nickel for the Prius is produced in Sudbury, Ontario. According to Demorro, ” This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.” Toyota produces 1,000 tons annually. The production of the batteries does not end in Canada, the nickel is then sent off to a refinery in Europe and then off to China and finally it ends up in finished form in Japan. This in turn uses more energy to create the batteries since it involves many factories all over the world.

End quote.

Anyone who doesn't want to believe this, well that's your right. If you own a hybrid and it makes you feel a little sad so you lash out at the report. Go right ahead. If you own a hybrid and you feel good, great!

If you want a fuel efficient car, get a hybrid, but don't go around thinking you are saving the earth. That's all. The Yaris is a much more "Earth Friendly" car. That is my point to this thread.

Here is a quote from http://canadianobserver.wordpress.com/2007/03/22/hybrids-not-so-good-for-the-environment/

If you read the article they said that as it stands sub compacts leaver a smaller environmental footprint and that that would change in the near future as the battery technology and service life of hybrids increased. It was hardly a full on shill article for big industry. Indeed it simply cautioned making too much of Toyota’s claim hyped claims about the prius. I still am of the firm belief that we need to get people out of their cars Hybrids or no and into high quality public transit. Cars simply lack the capacity to deliver the economies scale that are required both in terms of outputs and inputs.

End quote.

If you think this is shill you just aren't paying attention.

[flint_mica_manual]

The nickel for the Prius is produced in Sudbury, Ontario. According to Demorro, ” This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.”

Toyota buys nickel on the open market. They don't own or control this plant.
Second, Sudbury damage was almost exclusively caused from 1870-1970, there has been drastic cleanup, re-greening, and environmental improvement since then.

The amount of nickel in a Prius battery is insignificant.

The amount of nickel used for batteries is well under 1% mined, most is used for steel, if you use stainless flatware you could say you are more responsible than a Prius driver.

The astronauts in the Apollo program went to Sudbury *not* "because it was considered the closest thing on earth to the rocky lunar landscape" but because the nickel deposits in the Sudbury area resulted from a meteor impact long ago. The astronauts were studying the closest thing they could find to a meteor impact crater. The story that the pollution desolation in the area in the 1960s and 70s was the basis for the NASA work is an urban myth, or at least inaccurate. So the story here, about pollution from hybrid cars' batteries, related to Sudbury, related to the NASA work, is inaccuracy piled upon inaccuracy. The author is either ignorant about the facts or is intentionally deceptive, but deserves scorn either way. Industrial pollution *is* a serious concern but no good comes from poor journalism.

The article describes Sudbury, Ontario, as "the closest thing on earth to the rocky lunar landscape" and adds "Fumes emerging from the [nickel] factory are so poisonous that they have destroyed vegetation in the surrounding countryside, turning the once-beautiful landscape into the bare, rocky terrain astronauts might expect to find in outer space."

Here are a couple of recent photos of this "rocky lunar landscape":
http://images.fotosearch.com/bigcomps/AGE/AGE025/K29-320758.jpg

http://www.daverado.mvps.org/images/Ramsey-Lake.jpg

40 or so years ago, before the passing of modern pollution laws, there was some truth in the allegations against Inco (although *not* against the Prius, which has only been available for the past few years!); although even back then, logging and forest fires were as much responsible for the damage to the environment as mining was. But since 1972, Inco has reduced its sulphur dioxide emissions by more than 90 per cent (as have the other mining companies in the area); and Inco and Sudburians have between them planted more than 11 million trees on more than 14,000 hectares; for which they have been praised by the Ontario Ministry of Environment; by Pollution Probe, a leading Canadian environmental group; and by the United Nations Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro in 1992.

Sudbury has also won several conservation awards, including the Canadian Environment Achievement Award (1990), the Chevron Conservation Award (1992), and the Elaine Burke Memorial Award for Community Achievement in Active Living and the Environment (1996-1997). For more about Sudbury, see the Sudbury website at http://www.city.greatersudbury.on.ca/cms/index.cfm?app=home_cgs〈=en.

The Mail on Sunday article also quotes David Martin, energy co-ordinator of Greenpeace Canada as saying: 'The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside." The article omits to mention that David Martin was referring to the situation prior to 1972!!

Following the publication of the Mail on Sunday article and a similarly misleading article by the same reporter the following day, the Mayor of Sudbury wrote the following letter: http://www.daverado.mvps.org/Letters/MayorReplyToMail.pdf, to the Editor of the Mail on Sunday, which the newspaper declined to publish; and Inco wrote a similar letter to the Editor: http://www.daverado.mvps.org/Letters/IncoReplyToMail.pdf , which the newspaper again declined to publish. For a newspaper to not only publish allegations they clearly knew to be false, but then to refuse to publish letters from the Mayor of the town, and from the company, that the allegations concerned, is extraordinary behaviour.

I hope you'll agree that this is dishonest journalism of the worst kind, clearly written simply in order to promote the Mail Groups strongly anti-environmental agenda.

[nsmitchell]

Well how do you explain this!!!

[Yaris Revenge]

Whoa! Flint did his homework! Right on!

NS, WTF? :confused: :laugh:

~YR

[nsmitchell]

I must concede this debate. Seems Sudbury is cleaned up now and on the road to a greener lifestyle. Flint Mica has kicked my ass! Touche'!

Liftbacks are better than sedans though! :tongue:

[flint_mica_manual]

I must concede this debate. Seems Sudbury is cleaned up now and on the road to a greener lifestyle. Flint Mica has kicked my ass! Touche'!

Liftbacks are better than sedans though! :tongue:

Well, major kudos to some relevant posts over at digg for the block of the post's content.

Nice picture of Apollo 10 there.

Huston, the Yaris has landed.

[static808]

thanks to NS and flint, i think we all learned a little more than we anticipated about hybrids and the environment. awesome read...

--B

[PetersRedYaris]

Probably because the ones that do have that many miles have tripped the odometer 3 or 4 times. Can you honestly say you see more old Japanese cars on the road than old American cars? Crazy talk.


Very, very possible. :biggrin: But by conceding that people do hang on to American cars longer, doesn't that contradict your point about Japanese cars having higher overall mileage? :confused:

~YR

Your right, you got me, I'm lying. :rolleyes: When did I say old? I said high miles!

[PetersRedYaris]

I see quite a few high millage imports around here. But I think your culture comment is valid tho. The reason the "wheels fell off" was due to age not mileage. Old American cars simply don't have that many miles on them, because a generation ago, people didn't commute 60 miles to work like they do today. It took me 5 years to drive 140,000 miles on top of the 91,000 that came with my old geo storm -- that's over 75 miles a day. Nobody, or very few anyway, did that 25 years ago. . .and certainly not in an old C-10 pickup. Most old American cars I've seen have under 100,000 miles. This talk of putting over 300,000 on some american car from the 80's is craziness -- unless it was a diesel owned by a mailman.

Anyone wants to dispute that, then I want a picture of an odometer. I've seen plenty of old American cars, and they all have low miles and eventually end up in demolition derbies.

Exactly!!! Odometers only went up to 99,999 for a reason.

[Yaris Revenge]

Hey Pete.... beatin' a dead horse there. Discussion's already over. :wink:

~YR