Tesla launches betteries for homes, businesses, and utilities

[nookandcrannycar]

This story posted to MSN about an hour ago. I'm in Northern California right now, and this was discussed here on local radio a week or two ago. One of the points mentioned during the radio broadcast (that is not mentioned in the linked article), is that 11 Wal-Marts in the region have this technology currently installed as part of a test program.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/technology/tesla-launches-batteries-for-homes-businesses-and-utilities/ar-BBj0vee?fullscreen=true#image=1

[bronsin]

Some have the idea that home generated electricity will soon put the power companies out of business ie it will be an order of magnitude cheaper to generate your own. This is making the establishment in Europe nervous according to some articles I have read.

Toyota says electric cars are a dead end and is pursueing fuel cells as the "car of the future". Which if they are right is a bad sign for Tesla/whats his name.

Me I say hybrids, electric cars, self driving cars, and anything that is going to cost me $50,000 to buy hopefully will go extinct (like the Volt) I dont even like expensive "safety features" like air bags, ABS etc which add cost and complexity.

I can take care of myself.

[nortonfb]

Fuel cells are great. The problem is making them work. The only by product is water.
They are can power electric or a fueled vehicle.
The technology still needs more development.

[bronsin]

Fuel cells are great. The problem is making them work. The only by product is water.
They are can power electric or a fueled vehicle.
The technology still needs more development.

Fuel cells have been around for a LONG time. So have electric cars. If FC were going to suceed they would have by now.

[nookandcrannycar]

Toyota says electric cars are a dead end and is pursueing fuel cells as the "car of the future". Which if they are right is a bad sign for Tesla/whats his name.

Me I say hybrids, electric cars, self driving cars, and anything that is going to cost me $50,000 to buy hopefully will go extinct (like the Volt)

I agree, but in some (albeit likely very isolated) areas this doesn't seem to be the case (psst...don't tell the people in the Tri-Valley part (Pleasanton, San Ramon, Dublin, and Livermore) of the S.F. Bay Area :biggrin:). Between April 7-April 21st alone, I saw way more of each --- Teslas, Volts, and Leafs --- than I've seen up to that point (of each) in the entire time (all over the U.S.) each has been in production (on one day, I saw 3 Leafs and 2 Volts in under 10 minutes :eek:). At that juncture, I wondered what the penetration of same is compared to other areas. I did a few internet searches....and....apparently half of the electric cars sold in the U.S. in 2014 were sold in California.

I've also seen cars I haven't seen anywhere else. I've seen 3 different 2nd gen Toyota RAV 4s (only a bit over 2,400 were sold in the entire U.S. during the 2012-2014 production run). I've also seen a B-series (?) all-electric Mercedes SUV, an all-electric VW Golf (started in the U.S. with the 2015 model year), and probably 10 electric Fiat 500e examples.

The world headquarters of the Safeway supermarket chain is (until next year's merger with Albertson's) in Pleasanton. The Safeway in Pleasanton that is closest to the HQ has electric charging stations just outside the store. The Fallon Gateway shopping center on the eastern edge of Dublin is still developing. There are charging stations in the front of the parking area that serves the Panera Bread/Chaat Cafe/BJ's Brewery/and The Vitamin Shoppe. These charging stations front on Fallon Road. When people get out of their cars, I've noticed they tend to look over to see what types of cars are charging in the bays. One time, 3 Fiat 500e examples were congregated there. All 3 had DGDG.com signs where the California plate would go (....a promotion...DGDG.com = the site for a dealership group that includes a Fiat dealership). I sense a sort of 'keeping up with the Joneses' vibe in that valley when it comes to electric vehicles. I suppose this isn't surprising. The Tesla manufacturing plant is just over the hill, and (per the 2010 census) Pleasanton has the highest median household income of any mid sized city (65,000-249,999 population) in the country. The Vitamin Shoppe above labels the parking spaces closest to the store to benefit those 'supposedly trying to be green'...labeling them all either 'compact car' or 'clean air vehicles only' (think the sticker on (IIRC) all of the Prius models).

[dj92]

Pure electric cars are a dead end considering there is not enough lithium for everyone and no usable alternative battery technology in view.
The Mirai is an interesting car, sadly, it'd cost me about twice the US price as we have no subsidies for such vehicles here:
In diesem Jahr werden lediglich noch ein paar Dutzend Mirai ausgeliefert, die allesamt in Japan bleiben. Erst im nächsten Herbst sind die USA und Europa an der Reihe. Für Deutschland sind zwischen 50 und 100 Fahrzeuge reserviert. Viel mehr dürften sich auch kaum verkaufen lassen bei einem irrwitzigen Preis von 78.540 Euro.

Dass es auch anders geht, zeigt der Blick nach Kalifornien, wo der Löwenanteil der Mirai-Exportflotte hingeht. In den USA sind Autos in der Regel sowieso billiger, und der Mirai wird für umgerechnet 46.000 Euro angeboten. Zieht man von der Summe noch die Fördergelder ab, kostet der Wagen sogar nur 36.000 Euro. Den Wasserstoff, der in Kalifornien an demnächst hundert Tankstellen gezapft werden kann, gibt es sogar kostenlos.
http://www.spiegel.de/auto/fahrberichte/toyota-mirai-das-erste-serienauto-mit-brennstoffzelle-im-test-a-1003755.html

I am glad to have ABS, it has already spared me an accident when someone took my right of way.

The only failure on mine (which has also immobilizer, airbags, power windows and power steering) by now is the rear muffler getting a bit louder :laugh:

[nookandcrannycar]

Pure electric cars are a dead end considering there is not enough lithium for everyone and no usable alternative battery technology in view.
The Mirai is an interesting car, sadly, it'd cost me about twice the US price as we have no subsidies for such vehicles here:

http://www.spiegel.de/auto/fahrberichte/toyota-mirai-das-erste-serienauto-mit-brennstoffzelle-im-test-a-1003755.html

I am glad to have ABS, it has already spared me an accident when someone took my right of way.

The only failure on mine (which has also immobilizer, airbags, power windows and power steering) by now is the rear muffler getting a bit louder :laugh:

Subsidies (not for the Miral...which we don't have) have been kind of a sticky wicket in some parts of the U.S.

A study was published that concluded the average Chevrolet Volt owner in the U.S. makes about $174,000 USD per year. Some people feel that those owners shouldn't be getting a subsidy from 'the taxpayers'...many of whom make less than $174k per year.

[nookandcrannycar]

I agree, but in some (albeit likely very isolated) areas this doesn't seem to be the case (psst...don't tell the people in the Tri-Valley part (Pleasanton, San Ramon, Dublin, and Livermore) of the S.F. Bay Area :biggrin:). Between April 7-April 21st alone, I saw way more of each --- Teslas, Volts, and Leafs --- than I've seen up to that point (of each) in the entire time (all over the U.S.) each has been in production (on one day, I saw 3 Leafs and 2 Volts in under 10 minutes :eek:). At that juncture, I wondered what the penetration of same is compared to other areas. I did a few internet searches....and....apparently half of the electric cars sold in the U.S. in 2014 were sold in California.

I've also seen cars I haven't seen anywhere else. I've seen 3 different 2nd gen Toyota RAV 4s (only a bit over 2,400 were sold in the entire U.S. during the 2012-2014 production run). I've also seen a B-series (?) all-electric Mercedes SUV, an all-electric VW Golf (started in the U.S. with the 2015 model year), and probably 10 electric Fiat 500e examples.

The world headquarters of the Safeway supermarket chain is (until next year's merger with Albertson's) in Pleasanton. The Safeway in Pleasanton that is closest to the HQ has electric charging stations just outside the store. The Fallon Gateway shopping center on the eastern edge of Dublin is still developing. There are charging stations in the front of the parking area that serves the Panera Bread/Chaat Cafe/BJ's Brewery/and The Vitamin Shoppe. These charging stations front on Fallon Road. When people get out of their cars, I've noticed they tend to look over to see what types of cars are charging in the bays. One time, 3 Fiat 500e examples were congregated there. All 3 had DGDG.com signs where the California plate would go (....a promotion...DGDG.com = the site for a dealership group that includes a Fiat dealership). I sense a sort of 'keeping up with the Joneses' vibe in that valley when it comes to electric vehicles. I suppose this isn't surprising. The Tesla manufacturing plant is just over the hill, and (per the 2010 census) Pleasanton has the highest median household income of any mid sized city (65,000-249,999 population) in the country. The Vitamin Shoppe above labels the parking spaces closest to the store to benefit those 'supposedly trying to be green'...labeling them all either 'compact car' or 'clean air vehicles only' (think the sticker on (IIRC) all of the Prius models).

....Another thing I noticed in the Tri-Valley area....90 % of the out of state car tags/plates I've seen have been Texas plates. The world headquarters for Chevron is in San Ramon, so this probably shouldn't be surprising....new Chevron employees lured away from other oil companies in Texas, or transfers from Chevron locations in Texas.

[nookandcrannycar]

More info., this time from The Washington Post,...'Why Tesla's announcement is such a beg deal' :

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/04/30/why-teslas-announcement-could-be-such-a-big-deal/?tid=pm_business_pop_b

[dj92]

A study was published that concluded the average Chevrolet Volt owner in the U.S. makes about $174,000 USD per year. Some people feel that those owners shouldn't be getting a subsidy from 'the taxpayers'...many of whom make less than $174k per year.

With an income that high, you don't drive such a "cheap" thing here :laugh:

We have annoying laws, too:
A 30 year old natural aspirated 2l-diesel with about 70 sluggish hp and a reasonable consumption of ~6l/100km costs ~600$ of tax per year, while the biggest, latest Porsche Cayenne (possibly one of the biggest fuel hogs available here) was around 450$ as I looked it up for fun once. :iono:

My Yaris (with weight, fuel consumption and power comparable to the diesel mentioned above) costs me ~25$ :biggrin:

[nookandcrannycar]

We have annoying laws, too:
A 30 year old natural aspirated 2l-diesel with about 70 sluggish hp and a reasonable consumption of ~6l/100km costs ~600$ of tax per year, while the biggest, latest Porsche Cayenne (possibly one of the biggest fuel hogs available here) was around 450$ as I looked it up for fun once. :iono

That is sad.....SMH. I wonder if the reasoning behind that is that government bureaucrats want older cars off the road. Here we had 'Cash for Clunkers'....which some groups liked, while others didn't.

[bronsin]

With an income that high, you don't drive such a "cheap" thing here :laugh:

We have annoying laws, too:
A 30 year old natural aspirated 2l-diesel with about 70 sluggish hp and a reasonable consumption of ~6l/100km costs ~600$ of tax per year, while the biggest, latest Porsche Cayenne (possibly one of the biggest fuel hogs available here) was around 450$ as I looked it up for fun once. :iono:

My Yaris (with weight, fuel consumption and power comparable to the diesel mentioned above) costs me ~25$ :biggrin:



BING!

My 79 240D was 58 hp, got ~30 mpg when diesel was 79 cents a gallon and gas 99 cents. $16 to fill up its 20 gallon tank which would go 600 miles. What a car!

I note that Europe, which has beaucoup diesel cars, is having issues with air pollution in cities now. They would like the diesel to go away but that might take some doing...

I note diesel is $2.65 here while gas in nearing $2.40. The closest its been in some time...

[bronsin]

More info., this time from The Washington Post,...'Why Tesla's announcement is such a beg deal' :

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/04/30/why-teslas-announcement-could-be-such-a-big-deal/?tid=pm_business_pop_b

"For homeowners, the Tesla Powerwall will have a power capacity of either 10 kilowatt hours or 7 kilowatt hours, at a cost of either $ 3,500 or $ 3,000. The company says these are the costs for suppliers and don’t include the cost of installation and a power inverter, so customers could pay considerably more than that."

So lets say $10,000 for an up and running out the door unit.

My average electric and gas bill is less than $50 a month. $600 a year = 16.66 years until break even.

I'll be dead or in gaga land by then. Not for me even if I was 30.

I REALLY hope Munch doest go belly up with Tesla and bankrupt Space X in the process of screwing around with his for rich people only electric fantasies. :cry:

Not that manned space flight makes any sense. It will when it can make money...and not money from the wealthy. :headbang:

[nookandcrannycar]

BING!

My 79 240D was 58 hp, got ~30 mpg when diesel was 79 cents a gallon and gas 99 cents. $16 to fill up its 20 gallon tank which would go 600 miles. What a car!

I note that Europe, which has beaucoup diesel cars, is having issues with air pollution in cities now. They would like the diesel to go away but that might take some doing...

I note diesel is $2.65 here while gas in nearing $2.40. The closest its been in some time...

I wonder if diesels will now get more popular here in California, now that diesel fuel is cheaper than 87 octane gasoline ? I haven't noticed that many diesels in the time I've been here, but I imagine the latest 'diesel fuel being cheaper than 87 octane' phenomenon only started in January with the newest state cap and trade regulations. I know in the past some people didn't like diesels because they 'seemed so dirty'....but is that still the case ?

[nookandcrannycar]

"For homeowners, the Tesla Powerwall will have a power capacity of either 10 kilowatt hours or 7 kilowatt hours, at a cost of either $ 3,500 or $ 3,000. The company says these are the costs for suppliers and don’t include the cost of installation and a power inverter, so customers could pay considerably more than that."

So lets say $10,000 for an up and running out the door unit.

My average electric and gas bill is less than $50 a month. $600 a year = 16.66 years until break even.

I'll be dead or in gaga land by then. Not for me even if I was 30.

I REALLY hope Munch doest go belly up with Tesla and bankrupt Space X in the process of screwing around with his for rich people only electric fantasies. :cry:

Not that manned space flight makes any sense. It will when it can make money...and not money from the wealthy. :headbang:

The rural parts of my county in Texas have appeal because land is cheaper and outside any city limits there are only basic restrictions. The planed residential use/overall costs must be tempered by the cost of getting a gas line to the site, or doing without gas. Gas here, used for heating and cooking, is quite a bit cheaper for these uses than is electricity (as you might know re your mom and your brother). Given the above, the Tesla solution would likely pay for itself faster in such a scenario than it would in your case.

[bronsin]

I wonder if diesels will now get more popular here in California, now that diesel fuel is cheaper than 87 octane gasoline ? I haven't noticed that many diesels in the time I've been here, but I imagine the latest 'diesel fuel being cheaper than 87 octane' phenomenon only started in January with the newest state cap and trade regulations. I know in the past some people didn't like diesels because they 'seemed so dirty'....but is that still the case ?

CA wont like diesels because of their pollution. And in any case, the long term trend in gas vs diesel prices is diesel is more expensive. Like hybrids, diesels don't make sense economically. Bottom line diesels cost more to own, same as hybrids.

[bronsin]

The rural parts of my county in Texas have appeal because land is cheaper and outside any city limits there are only basic restrictions. The planed residential use/overall costs must be tempered by the cost of getting a gas line to the site, or doing without gas. Gas here, used for heating and cooking, is quite a bit cheaper for these uses than is electricity (as you might know re your mom and your brother). Given the above, the Tesla solution would likely pay for itself faster in such a scenario than it would in your case.

If I lived in a rural area I would be doing everything I could to be independent of everything. :bow:

[nookandcrannycar]

If I lived in a rural area I would be doing everything I could to be independent of everything. :bow:

:laugh::thumbsup:

[dj92]

The plan is indeed to get old vehicles off the road.
However, if you have a car that is at least 30 years old in a nearby original and overall good condition (as mine is), you can get some kind of certificate and drive it daily with paying a fixed rate, about 200$/year.
Some small engine cars (2CV, Fiat 500, Fiat 126) are cheaper when paying the regular tax, but their lack of a cat keeps them out of lots of cities.
There are three colours of badges you get to stick behind the windshield, depending on the emissions: red for catless petrol engines and older diesels, yellow for most common rail diesels, green for almost all petrol engines with a cat and all diesel engines with a particle filter.
The certificate counts as a green badge, the best.

The diesel engines with filters are indeed quite clean, the first we got around 2007 still had an exhaust that clean that you'd only have road dust on a cloth wiped through it when we sold it 7 years later.

However, some particles which are way finer still pass the filters, they are said to be dangerous for health - I can not estimate how far this is true.
Another fact is that the direct injection petrol engines emit a very high count of particles, about as much as an older diesel - without having to have a filter.

I would consider adding a turbo to the 30yr old lady, but as far as I know, the standard OM601 does not sport enough piston cooling for that.
So, my dream is finding a 2.5 turbo engine (fitting a series engine would still allow me to get the certificate), but this is nothing of a big priority.

[nookandcrannycar]

CA wont like diesels because of their pollution. And in any case, the long term trend in gas vs diesel prices is diesel is more expensive. Like hybrids, diesels don't make sense economically. Bottom line diesels cost more to own, same as hybrids.

:thumbsup:. In addition, well taken care of gasoline engines are now closer to the lifespan of diesels, mileage wise...so that advantage is nolt what it once was.

[nookandcrannycar]

Some small engine cars (2CV, Fiat 500, Fiat 126) are cheaper when paying the regular tax, but their lack of a cat keeps them out of lots of cities.
There are three colours of badges you get to stick behind the windshield, depending on the emissions: red for catless petrol engines and older diesels, yellow for most common rail diesels, green for almost all petrol engines with a cat and all diesel engines with a particle filter.
The certificate counts as a green badge, the best.

Does a driver have to know in advance via 'research' the restricted cities/areas, or are there signs posted to notify motorists? (I've driven in 8 countries in Europe (including off the continent), but not Germany...only trains, planes, subways, etc. there)

[dj92]

There are signs, often some km ahead, but due to emission laws, all cars since ~2009 get a green one, and some cities don't check for the badges as it costs money.
E.g. Darmstadt does not have any restrictions at all because the budget does not allow to post these signs :laugh:

[nookandcrannycar]

There are signs, often some km ahead, but due to emission laws, all cars since ~2009 get a green one, and some cities don't check for the badges as it costs money.
E.g. Darmstadt does not have any restrictions at all because the budget does not allow to post these signs :laugh:

:thumbsup: Very interesting.

[bronsin]

:thumbsup:. In addition, well taken care of gasoline engines are now closer to the lifespan of diesels, mileage wise...so that advantage is nolt what it once was.

Yes as your experience and that of others proves! I think there are two reasons for this. One FI has eliminated the rich running at idle of engines and allowed for the uniform carburation of them at all speeds. Quite a bit of wear takes place in a carbureted engine at idle. Also, the elimination of lead in fuel makes oil change intervals longer and increases spark plug life almost indefinitely.

Change the oil and air filters in modern gas engines, especially Honda and Toyota gas engines, and they will easily outlast the life of the rest of the car.

Given the particulate pollution and NOx from diesels I see no reason to own them, for the consumer.

[hachi-roku_fan]

I wish I could give the LADWP the good boot but I feel they wouldn't like me selling them electricity at their rates. Hell, they lagged on installing solar panels on houses, so I can't imagine how pissed they'd be if I got this along with solar panels to store any energy I don't need/use and make while I'm at work.

Toyotas reasoning about electric cars not working is because they feel the infrastructure to support everyone driving electric cars isn't up to par. We'd overload the grid basically.

[nookandcrannycar]

I wish I could give the LADWP the good boot but I feel they wouldn't like me selling them electricity at their rates. Hell, they lagged on installing solar panels on houses, so I can't imagine how pissed they'd be if I got this along with solar panels to store any energy I don't need/use and make while I'm at work.

:laugh: Better than SoCal Edison though. A few years ago SoCal Edison had a rate increase, and they actually had the b***s to admit that the ONLY reason for the rate increase was for pension funding! If I still lived within their coverage area, I would have been so ticked I would have been tempted to move just barely out of their reach. I'm too much of a fiscal conservative to be happy as a resident of '2010 and beyond' California (I picked 2010 re 3rd term for Moonbeam :biggrin:...yeah, I know some people think he's being fiscally conservative...but some of it as smoke and mirrors {things no longer officially 'counted'...but funding not cut)}. It is a good thing that I am no longer a resident.

Toyotas reasoning about electric cars not working is because they feel the infrastructure to support everyone driving electric cars isn't up to par. We'd overload the grid basically.

Within the last day or two, I read a newspaper article about the new Hyundai Tucson for the U.S. It will be electric, and also hydrogen fuel cell. You will have to lease it (no purchases allowed), and the fuel and maintenance will be included. IIRC, it will have a range of 265 miles.