Timing check: Quick response needed!

[tmontague]

I just finished replacing the head gasket on my '02 Echo and will be firing it back up tomorrow. I followed the repair manual to set the timing but before I fire it up I want to make sure that it is perfect so that nothing is damaged. I hand cranked it and it turns fine with the typical resistance at certain parts of the crank turn.

Is there any way to check that I set the timing right in relation to the camshaft and crankshaft. Since it's a 2:1 ratio I want to make sure they are set together. Can this be done by turning the crank to TDC and putting something in cylinder one (the very left one in front of the passenger) and making sure that it is at the top?

thanks for the help

[tmontague]

just pulled the valve cover and checked that the valves (exhaust and intake) for the 1st cylinder were facing up. Cylinder 1 was also at the top of the stroke so the timing is good. My new problem is this:

when the camshaft markings are at the 12:00 position the driveshaft pulley timing mark is at the `10`instead of the `0` . I know that this won`t cause any interference damage but what I`m wondering is will the ECU fix this slightly forward timing or what effects will this potentially cause. I am not about to pull the timing cover again and re set the timing chain.

[bronsin]

Unfortunately I don't know but "well done" putting on the head gasket!

Im too old to do stuff like this anymore.

Wait...I have a guess! Could it be slack in the (worn timing chain)?

[tmontague]

Thanks, I originally planned on replacing the valve seals and exhaust manifold gasket hence the new head gasket (the original was fine) but I ended up only doing the head gasket. For 350,000km it only loses a quart or oil every 4-5k km which isn't bad at all. The exhaust bolts were so rusted I didn't even want to try those for fear of them just snapping as that's exactly what happened to the manifold heat shield. When a car is this old and parts are this rusted it's best to just leave them unless necessary.

Your guess may be right as the timing was set up perfectly before I re tensioned the tensioner and then put the timing cover back on. I'll fire it up in 20 mins once I instal the new fuel injector rings. Just picked them up from the border for about $9, dealer wanted $79...

[WeeYari]

I'll fire it up in 20 mins once I instal the new fuel injector rings. Just picked them up from the border for about $9, dealer wanted $79...

You talking O-rings? $79 for O-rings! Sweet Jesus that's truly robbery. Then again, $20ish to get to border and back, plus time. If you value your time then $79 I suppose isn't bad.

[tmontague]

Yup $79 for 8 littler rubber o-rings, ridiculous. I. Had to pick up other stuff anyways at the border, and if I drive 130km/h it's an hour door to door so can't complain.

I tried to start the car barely started and ran way off. I'm re installing the timing chain as I obviously messed the timing up. I am keeping my fingers crossed that I didn't bend the valves. It didn't sound like any damage was happening but it definitely wasn't running properly.

I'll post back if I can get it to fire up again

[tmontague]

just re installed the chain and re set the timing so that it matched up perfectly. Now the car won`t start or run terrible for 5 seconds, shakes and smokes. When the ignition is in the run position a ticking pump sort of noise is heard.

Does anyone know if the coil packs are specific to each cylinder or are they interchangeable I got them mixed up by accident and this is the only thing I can think of causing a misfire like this. If I can`t fix this then the car is scrap so any help is greatly appreciated!

[WeeYari]

I'm pretty sure coils are not cylinder specific. I've diagnosed misfires before by swapping coil packs to see if a misfire code follows the coil to the new cylinder.

[tmontague]

hmm, that`s what i was thinking. I've narrowed the issue down to electrical as the timing was matched up perfectly with the orange links on the chain and the timing marks.

When the car cranks it sounds normal but it won`t catch unless you give it gas. That is where is sort of catches but runs terrible and will die if you stop giving it gas. It seems like the cylinders aren't firing properly. Reminds me of when I had a bad coil pack a few years ago, except that was just one cylinder and this seems like all 4 of them. There is also a white light smoke coming from the exhaust when you give it gas which I think is un burnt fuel.

Let me know any suggestions if you guys have any

[Bluevitz-rs]

I can take a picture for you when I get home tonight of the timing marks when I get back home tonight.

The blue mark on the crank trigger wheel should line up with the oil squirter. Then the chain shoul have a coloured make on it and line up to to a corisponding mark on the right side of the crank. Then there are two yellow marks on the chain for the cams and their marks.

[tmontague]

thanks blue, that would be appreciated. Like I said I'm sure the timing is perfect, but I'd like to double check with where your marks are just to be sure.

I have the cams set up with the marks aligned with the orange link for each cam shaft. The 3rd orange link is then lined up perfectly with the driveshaft sprocket which puts it at about the 4:00 position. The links are spot on they are not off even half a link and the chain was then tensioned and re checked.

When I instaled the new fuel injector o-rings one of the injectors was having an issue seating into the rail and it show fuel out when I tried starting it. When I fixed the issue a lot of fuel when into the injector hole in the engine. Is it possible that the fuel fouled the plugs and that could cause the mis fire issue? I may try new plugs next and see if that helps.

I'm heading out of town so I won't be able to work on it until next weekend, I'm going to give myself 1 day to fix the problem and if I can't then it looks like I'll have to get a new one which I really don't want to have to do.

Things I'll be checking are: all sensors connected, clean and re connect most of them. Change plugs. That's all I can think of for now.

[KTS]

I don't know if that helps

[tmontague]

Thanks for posting that. I have exactly 8 links between both lines. I matched the orange link to those marks and it matches the drive shaft mark with the 3rd orange link. I have no doubt that the timing is good. I'm just trying to figure out what would cause multiple misfires

[shepd]

If you value your time then $79 I suppose isn't bad.

People say this to me all the time (I like to do a lot of 'silly' things to save money, DIY spirit!!!)

The answer is your time only worth what someone will pay for it. For a single 3 random hours unannounced on a weekend, you'd be lucky to make minimum wage (if you aren't on call, otherwise it's not really random in your favour).

[kou]

$79 is an insane price for injector seals when the entire engine gasket/seal kit is $130.

[tmontague]

yup, they are rubber circles, it's blatant gouging and is the reaosn why I never spend money at a Toyota dealership.

I am going to try and swap the plugs from the Yaris to the Echo and see if that has any effect on the car mis firing. If that doesn't work then I'll do the coil packs. It's frustrating as the car turn over fine and I knw I did everything properly including the timing. If I knew what the problem was I wouldn't have an issue having to buy a new car. I don't want to have to do this seeing as it seems like a simple electrical problem

[KTS]

Check engine grounds.

[WeeYari]

Am I reading your posts correctly? You are saying at this point scrapping the car is a possibility? What drove you to undertake this project? I cannot find anything posted by you indicating any real issues with the Echo in the first place.

[tmontague]

The Echo is my fiancees car, and it's a bit rusted, old and the a/c hasn't worked since she bought it used w/ 280,000km on it. It now has. 350,000km.

It was burning some oil so I figured i'd replace the valve seals and clean the head and valves as there was some oil buildup under the oil cap. At the same time it would help me learn about the 1NZ engine in case I had to do any future engine work on my Yaris. It also is my escape from the grind of med school and since I just finished exams I was looking forward to workin on the Echo.

I have the full work manual and made sure every thing was done properly and had no problem doing the work. I didn't bother with the valve seals as it would've been too much work that I didn't feel like spending to remove all the valves.

The issue now seems electrical which is causing the misfire. Saturday when I'm back in town I'll check all the connectors again and make sure none are disconnected, I already did a quick check of this but will do it again.

My fiancés will likely get a business car in 2 years so I wanted to keep the Echo goin for her for that time as we don't really have the cash for a new car. I don't like buying something new if the original still works. If I can't get it to fire properly than I won't have much choice. I'm hoping Saturday I can get it to run again

[tmontague]

Can someone please confirm the number of grounds located on the right side of the engine (when facing the engine bay). I think I remember disconnecting a 3rd one located further back on the right side of the engine but now that I think about it I don't remember installing it back. I remember seeing a threaded hole for a 10mm bolt and when fully assembled I was able to bolt a 10mm bracket which was missing a bolt when I started the job.

Could a disconnected ground cause a multiple misfire? I won't be able to check this until Saturday

[KTS]

There are two 10mm bolts for grounds by the coolant and cam sensors.

[tmontague]

Yes, I installed those. Is there not one by itself further behind those 2 grounds that are above and below each other? It is tougher to see with all of the wires there but that is where I have an open 10mm bolt hole and an extra 10mm bolt

[Bluevitz-rs]

I sent you a PM. I can send you pictures from my phone and iPod if you get me your email. The Yaris has a different electrical system than the Echo.

[tmontague]

Pm sent, thanks

[tmontague]

I'll be checking all the electrical connectors tomorrow and re connecting any loose grounds. I'm also checking the coil packs and plugs by putting them in the Yaris and seeing if they have an issue.

If this fails then I have a feeling I made a mistake when installing the head gasket. I torqued down the bolts but forgot to oil the threads. I also didn't check that the product number was in the correct spot. I'm thinking that this may be the reason for the white smoke near the exhaust manifold which could mean coolant is fouling the plugs.

I'll post back here and keep the thread updated, i'm hoping it's a simple coil pack or electrical issue.

[tmontague]

just quickly checked the spark plug today after work. They are all black and covered in the black soot and smell like gasoline.

Does this mean anything knew other than the car not firing leading to buildup of fuel in the cylinder?

I'm thinking I improperly installed the head gasket and now the coolant is getting in the cylinder causing it not to start. Does the current plug condition lead away from this diagnosis or is it current with a head gasket issue?

[tmontague]

The coil packs and plug from the Echo ran perfectly fine in my Yaris. So ruled those out.

Did a compression test in the echo, results were:
C1: 150psi
C2: 175psi
C3: 130psi
C4: 175psi

So no valve issue causing no compression. Likely have bad rings on cylinder 3 but i'm not concerned about as it has 350,000km on it.

Now I'm going to re install the head gasket perfectly as I think it is leaking causing the issue. Let's see if I can get it done in under 7 hrs

[tmontague]

new update. The head gasket is installed correctly and the timing is perfect. The car is turning over great but it won't catch. I have narrowed it down to a fuel issue due to the following:

When the key is turned to ignition, a weird buzz/beep is heard coming from the fuel rail (used a screwdriver to my ear to tell). The buzz goes away when the EFI relay is removed, the key it turned off from ignition or is I open up the throttle.

The car does not smell like fuel after trying to start is so the engine is not getting flooded. I swapped relays and the same problem persists so it is not the fuel pump relay and the fuse is still fine.

Does any one else have any recommendations on what to look for or what the noise could mean? Is there any other fuses or electrical things I can check that relate to the fuel system? I am so close to getting the car to fire back up again and am really hoping to get it started soon.

Thanks

[Bluevitz-rs]

The buzzing might actually be the idle air speed controller. It operates off a duty cycle and could be making that noise. It would also explain why the buzzing stops when you. Open the throttle.

[tmontague]

As in you think it went bad? Would a bad IASC cause a no start?

The odd thing is that the sounds of definitely heard from the fuel rail for sure

[Bluevitz-rs]

No not in the warm weather. It should at least fire a couple times. Try cracking the throttle as you crank?

Can you get a video of the sound?

[tmontague]

I tried giving it gas while cranking as well as putting the pedal down to the floor, no change or start doing either. No gas smell so no flooding. I will get a video up asap.

Next weekend i'll be removing the fuel line and cranking it to see if there is fuel from the pump. If I can't get it figured out in a couple weeks then i'll get CAA to tow it to my mechanic and hope he can tell me what's wrong with it.

I was hoping someone knew what that constant buzz would be. Does that happen if the fuel pump is toast? I'm thinking that the noise is the relay or something trying to get fuel to the injectors and since no fuel is getting there it keep trying.

Are there any fuses or relays I should look for other than the obvious 2 in the engine bay? Is there a fuel cutoff located anywhere in the car that I could have tripped that I need to reset?

[Bluevitz-rs]

It still sounds like you have a bad ground somewhere.


Sent from my iPod Touch

[Bluevitz-rs]

There's nothing in the fuel rail that could be buzzing. The injectors would only open when the ECU tells them too with rotation of the crankshaft a bad cam position sensor can cause the engine not to start.

Did you sand off the grounds to make sure they're clean?


Sent from my iPod Touch

[tmontague]

I didn't sand them as they looked clean. There are only 2 grounds on the front of the drivers side of the engine and both are connected. I checked and re checked for other grounds and there were none.

I cleaned and put dielectric grease on the cam position sensor connector.

Odd thing is, there were no issues with grounds prior to working on the car and they are clean.

I'm going to first check if there is fuel when the ignition is turned on to rule out fuel pump.

[tmontague]

Update:

Went to check the fuel pressure and checked the spark before just to make sure. Sure enough, no spark at any of the plugs. Tried the coils and plugs from my Yaris and still no spark. Is there a an ignition fuse I can check. What else should I check that could cause no spark when the coil packs and plugs are fine?

[WeeYari]

Sure seems to be a lot of non-starting Yari issues popping up recently. Another one for a 2004 was opened just a short while ago.

Although it was a Gen2, this is the latest one that I recall having a resolution. Issue seemed to have been the PCM.

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53838

[tmontague]

Hmm, starting to think it is the PCM/ECU. CAA is picking up the car in the next hour. I'm at the end with this car and would rather pay someone to diagnose it as i've put more than enough time into it.

If it is the PCM what is the easiest/cheapest way to get a new one for an auto Echo '02? We do drive clean tests in ontario but the Echo is good until another 2 years so I'm fine without a programmed one likely as my Fianceé should have a company car by then

[Bluevitz-rs]

I sent you an Email with the Engine Control PDF for you car and a little rundown of what to check.

[tmontague]

thanks Blue, it was a good diagram. Electrical is my weak point, but I checked the EFI relays/fuses and the AM2 fuse and they were all fine. I'll keep this thread updated with what the mechanic says.

[Bluevitz-rs]

Only way to check is with a volt meter. I've seen fuses that appeared to be fine that actually didn't conduct any electricity.

[tmontague]

Good to know, I should've swapped a spare 15A fuse to see if it worked. However the buzzing noise from the fuel rail likely means it has power since it goes off when the EFI relay is removed.

Only other problem relating to crank no start w/ that buzz is the issue linked above with a bad PCM I couldn't find any other problems like that anywhere on the internet

[tmontague]

Update:

Spoke with the mechanic today and this is the latest news. Car won't start but as soon as his computer is plugged in the car starts and runs perfectly fine. As soon as the computer is removed it stalls out.

He said that the computer is acting as a ground for the ECU or that the ECU is reading his computer allowing it to start.

Basically there is a ground disconnected or there is a connector pin bent down not properly connecting another wire. He's going to call me back hopefully tonight and let me know if he found the issue.

[tmontague]

Update:

Solved!!!

Sorry for taking so long to get this written up, been a busy week.

My mechanic looked at it and found out something weird with the Echo. When his computer was hooked up the engine would run perfectly fine. With it disconnected it wouldn't start or stall out. He said because it was running fine before I worked on it that it is likely a diconnected ground and his computer was grounding it which is why it would run when plugged in.

He found a loose ground on the cylinder head and once tightened it started fine. I didn't speak with the mechanic to find out which ground it was but when I picked up the car there were no new ground connected so it would've been one of the two on the drivers side of the engine block that grounds the ignition and EFI system. Hence the no spark and no fuel problem.

When driving the car home it ran fine except for an exhaust leak (likely from CAA towing it) Since I don't have a welder I took it to a local exhaust shop. They claimed it had a leaking pipe before the muffler and a leaking muffler.

Got it fixed and it runs great again. $200 for the mechanic and $250 for the exhaust. I have the old exhaust pieces and I can't see a leak in the old muffler which still looks in fairly good shape. Is there any way of finding out if it was leaking or not? I want to make sure I wasn't fed some bs.

It just turned over 350,000km and i'm looking to get 400,000km out of it. On my to do list for it is inner and outer tie rods and a bad engine mount.