2002 Echo Crank, No Start, No Spark, Immobilizer

[Katooshy]

Hi all

Would appreciate your help in diagnosing my 2002 Toyota Echo NCP10R, manual, 3 door hatch:

- cranks, but will not start
- battery is fine (and headlights etc work)
- fuel pump is fine
- recently serviced (a few weeks ago)
- immobilizer light continues to flash with key in the ignition (tested all three keys);
- engine check light is not coming on at start
- no spark
- fuses and EFI relays all look fine
- have had the car since 04 with no prior trouble
- no modifications of any kind

Car stalled in traffic, started again, went forward 100m and stalled again - now will not start at all.

Mechanic thinks it might be the ECU, but cannot confirm this. Any ideas? Any way to rule out the ECU or confirm that this is an ECU fault?

Many thanks

[CTScott]

The Toyota Techstream diagnostic tool would help in figuring out what is wrong and if it is indeed a bad ECM.

[tmontague]

If it isn't the ECU/immobilizer than look into a bad ground. There are 2 on the drivers side of the engine block near the front of the engine.

This causes this issue on my '02 Echo twice. It caused the ignition to not work (no spark). Th car would start when hooked up to a scan tool that had its own power source (the ECU was grounding through it instead), once disconnected the car would stall out.

Although my Echo doesn't have an immobilizer the issue sounds the same

[Andrinik]

I have the same problem with Yaris 1999 year.
Please, point what contact should be grounded. In my case engine and all wires are out of car now. Bad ground looking as most possible reason, I think...
To Katooshy: did you found the real reason?

[tmontague]

There are two grounds on the engine block on the left side (drivers side) just to the front of the block. They come off of the large wiring loom that that fuel injector wires come off of. It I the 2 grounds for all of your ignition wires.

You will need small fingers and a head lamp to access it. Use the 10mm socket with an extensions and you'l b able to remove the 10mm bolt that holds each ground to the block.

Inspect them and then lightly grind them down to clean the contcts and re attach.

In my case it wasn't wasn't conact but the actual metal loop conact at the end which is crimped to the ground wire was loose and therefore the wires didn't have good contact. I had to recrimp and then everything was fine.

When a scan computer that has it's own power supply was hooked up to the car it would start and run fine. Once diconnected t car would stall out. This is because the ecu was grounding through the scan tool.

This will only work if your scan tool has its own power supply. a tool like an ultragauge won't work because they only run when the car is running.

FYI both ground are in the same spot, one is about 1" above the other. Check them both.

[tmontague]

Oh, and if you find out the solution take the 2 seconds to post on here what fixed it. People don't mind helping but pay it forward so other can learn/fix th own similar future issues. It's just ignorant to post 1 or 2 times on a forum and ask for help and then fix the problem and never come back to state the solution.

*this isn't aimed at anyone specific, just general rant*

[tmontague]

Here is a pic I was able to find on my phone. It doesn't show the best view of the block, but it give you an idea of where the grounds are located (circled in red)

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12316500_10153782568397743_4170032729508692018_n.j pg?oh=081430472016a374c5aeea4e8a336c95&oe=56E27A78

[Bluevitz-rs]

I also had the problem with the ground. I forgot to tighten it after replacing the engine. Car ran for 1300km and one day driving down the road just totally died.

[tmontague]

I found it surprising at how important the grounds are. Needless to say I learned my lesson and that will always be one of things first things I check

[Andrinik]

Yaris 1999. The long time (6 month) was without battery.
Now: Key is inserted, but immo light still flashing. Battery is ok. Starter is ok.
I've checked the ECU ground, relay, fuses, wires. All is ok.

Important question: Transponder get 12V on B+ from EFI Relay only on scheme!
(Please, see the scheme attached).
In my case EFI Relay doesn't close the contacts 5 and 3. No with inserted key, neither in "on" key position.
How transponder (immo) can read the signal from key without power?
What element is blocked by immobilizer in the ignition circuit?
May be someone may explain the scheme... and give any ideas why engine doesn't work?

[CTScott]

MREL is supposed to be powered when the ignition switch is in the ON position. Check for 12 volts on pin 2 of the EFI relay with the ignition switch on. If it is there, then the EFI relay is bad.

[Andrinik]

Checked pin2 EFI relay: 0 volt.
Pin5=12 volt. No depending on key position.

Batt pin1 on ECU=12 volt.
Pin7 on ECU grounded with key inserted.
I've checked the wire from pin5 EFI to pin2ECU. It is ok.

So, no any volts on pin1 of transponder, because it after EFI relay.
Immo light flashing. Always.

[CTScott]

Checked pin2 EFI relay: 0 volt.
Pin5=12 volt. No depending on key position.

Batt pin1 on ECU=12 volt.
Pin7 on ECU grounded with key inserted.
I've checked the wire from pin5 EFI to pin2ECU. It is ok.

So, no any volts on pin1 of transponder, because it after EFI relay.
Immo light flashing. Always.

You could try bypassing the EFI relay, by jumping 5 to 3. With MREL not having power with the key inserted, there is more likely an ECM or power to ECM issue.

I would also check on the ignition switch connector:

White/Light blue - 12 V constant power
White/Red - 12 V constant power

Black/Yellow - 12 V with Ignition in ON position
Black/Red - 12 V with Ignition in ON position

[Andrinik]

Update:
Thanks to CTScott, I bypassing EFI.
Next changes: MREL is 12 v!
Immo light is not flashing with inserted key. So, immobilizer is ok, I guess. I'm happy!!
And one more great news: check engine appears on display. So, I hope ECU is is fine?:thumbup:
But what next? Without bypassing I have the same problem.

[CTScott]

Update:
Thanks to CTScott, I bypassing EFI.
Next changes: MREL is 12 v!
Immo light is not flashing with inserted key. So, immobilizer is ok, I guess. I'm happy!!
And one more great news: check engine appears on display. So, I hope ECU is is fine?:thumbup:
But what next? Without bypassing I have the same problem.

OK - If bypassing the EFI relay worked, then that is a good sign. Next check the wires, which I mentioned on the ignition switch connector.

[Andrinik]

The wires colors are not matched (with you mentioned) in my case on ignition connector.
So, see attachment. Would you like to copy, your post, but point PIN numbers (no colors) .
I made diagnostic this connector as described in manual. Checked continuity between pins in different key positions. I did it without battery. All was ok.
Today in evening will make procedure you described - voltage measure.


P.S. Yesterday I've found 1 not grounded wire on ECU, because connector was broken. The wire come from ECU thorough Check Connector (Power Steering) to ground. I have no idea what it is exactly in English and how important this one. I grounded it, but nothing happen.

[Andrinik]

I've checked on the ignition switch connector: all is ok.
So, it seems to be a ECU failure.
In internet I did find out that +12V should appear on MREL pin (ECU) if 2 condition are true:
1.+12 V on Batt
2. +12 V on IGSW (Key in "on" position)
In my case there isn't any volt on MREL when key in on position, unfortunately

[Bluevitz-rs]

So have you tried a new relay yet?

[Andrinik]

I've cheked relay twice.
Firstly I've tryed another relay (change relays within relays blocks with same characteristic)
Secondly, I've cheked votage on 2 pin of relay when key in on position (see post 10) It should have 12 V to close working contacts 3 and 5.
So if I had the realy NEW relay - it wouldn't help.

[CTScott]

It's definitely not the relay, as MREL drives the coil and that output of the ECM is not firing up. I had you check the ignition wires as they feed power to the ECM to bring up MREL.

[Andrinik]

Update:
New ecu installed. Numbers on this ecu match totally my ecu.
Efi relay works great. Just after I only insert the key - without key rotation - 12 v on b+ pin of ecu. Check engine light is on. After 1 minute of doing nothing the relay switches off.

But I have one expected problem- immobilizer. This one can't accept the new ecu. And flashing.

So, Some specialists advised to open ecu and install immo part of ecu from old to new ecu.
It's not easy to recognize what exactly part of ecu should be replaced, is it?

[CTScott]

That is the hassle of the immobilizer - if you get a used ECM, you also need the key ECU and key.

You should be able to swap the EEPROM from the old to the new. It will be an 8 pin IC with 93Cnn on it. It will probably be. 93C46 or 93C56.

[CTScott]

Actually the European one might be a Bosch ECM. If it is then the IC is a 25020 or 25040.

[Andrinik]

I opened the ecu and find memory box 25020. At weekend I will place this box from old to new ecu. Thank for your information.
Do you know what exactly immobilizer blocks on Yaris? Sparking plug? Fuel pump?

[CTScott]

I opened the ecu and find memory box 25020. At weekend I will place this box from old to new ecu. Thank for your information.
Do you know what exactly immobilizer blocks on Yaris? Sparking plug? Fuel pump?

On the 2nd generation Yaris it prevents both fuel and ignition. I suspect that the first generation ones do the same.

[Andrinik]

Replaced immo memory from old to new ecu. Installed ecu. Immo warning light stopped flashing! It's very nice. But anyway I haven't got the ignition spark...
And no fuel injection.
Checked the wire to injectors and find bad connections. Repair this. No effect.

No sparkles, no injections- and I suggested crankshaft position sensor failure. Checked wires and figured out bad connection. Repaired.
Today I saw first time the ignition sparkles!
Unfortunately battery was out. So I will replace battery and continue...

I should to check fuel injections. What is easiest way to do this?

[CTScott]

Replaced immo memory from old to new ecu. Installed ecu. Immo warning light stopped flashing! It's very nice. But anyway I haven't got the ignition spark...
And no fuel injection.
Checked the wire to injectors and find bad connections. Repair this. No effect.

No sparkles, no injections- and I suggested crankshaft position sensor failure. Checked wires and figured out bad connection. Repaired.
Today I saw first time the ignition sparkles!
Unfortunately battery was out. So I will replace battery and continue...

I should to check fuel injections. What is easiest way to do this?

Wow - Very strange with all the wiring issues.

For checking the injectors, just listening to them click is one way of telling they are alive. Beyond that you need to power them and squirt liquid through them.

[Andrinik]

Thanks to CTScott for real help.
After putting some fuel in input collector engine started!!

So, it was extremely useful advice about memory replacing!