Stop Making Small Cars Bigger!

[Thirty-Nine]

Just a little bit I wrote on my blog. Thought you all might enjoy it since it deals with small cars.

http://www.subcompactculture.com/2016/03/stop-making-small-cars-bigger.html

[NYC-SE]

So true. I don't understand the bigger, Bigger, BIGGER mentality of the manufacturers. As you say just buy a larger car. And don't even get me started with trucks. These gargantuan monstrosities running around nowadays are insane and it seems that almost nobody driving them have any real need for them other than "status". Hell current mid-size pickups are larger than the full size ones from my youth. Rant over.

[Hershey]

Would really like to see small pickups back . Like that of the Pup , Luv, , etc.. F.E with a bed large enough to haul riding mowers , washers , etc..

[Kalispel]

Yeah, the 2016 Honda Civic is now as big as my 2000 Accord was.

[bronsin]

Yes yes YES! :mad:

I remember my 86 Toyota pickup oh where oh where have you GONE?!?:cry:
I towed a 17 foot Boston Whaler with it from Cooperstown NY to Kent Island MD at 75 mph!:eek::burnrubber:

Oh the insanity the insanity!:bonk:

[kimona]

^^^ I had a 1986 Toyota pickup! It was an XtraCab Long Bed 2WD. Great little truck! I replaced it with a Mazda B2200 pickup... which was even better. I wish those smaller trucks were still available.

[bronsin]

Longbed. SWEET!:thumbsup:

[invader166]

Yes yes YES! :mad:

I remember my 86 Toyota pickup oh where oh where have you GONE?!?:cry:
I towed a 17 foot Boston Whaler with it from Cooperstown NY to Kent Island MD at 75 mph!:eek::burnrubber:

Oh the insanity the insanity!:bonk:

Compare any Toyota car model from '86 to the same one today . It's almost guaranteed to be bigger and/or longer...:thumbdown:

[kimona]

I remember my Mom had a 1976 Honda Civic exactly like this. What a fun little car that was!

[kimona]

This was my college car... a nice 1978 Datsun 510 hatchback. I loved that car!

[Kalispel]

My first car was a new burgundy manual 1982 Accord Hatchback, and it was about the same size as my 2015 Yaris - albeit a LOT uglier, with odd proportions. :laugh:

http://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2010/10/30/22/45/1982_honda_accord_lx_hatchback-pic-5507211520358981920-1600x1200.jpeg

[Hershey]

I occasionally drove a Mazda B2000 with manual . Not the easiest clutch .

[kimona]

This is a neat little car: the Kia Venga. Available in Europe, but of course we can't get it here in the US.

[bronsin]

Looks like a YARIS...

[kimona]

^^^ Yes, kinda looks like a marriage between Yaris and Fit, but IMHO, so much better looking than either.

[Kalispel]

This is a neat little car: the Kia Venga. Available in Europe, but of course we can't get it here in the US.

The U.S. rarely gets any of the neat cars or options (by my reckoning at least) that are available in Europe, Asia, etc. I definitely don't fit into the American market demographic, considering what is apparently popular here and what is not. :cry:

[kimona]

The U.S. rarely gets any of the neat cars or options (by my reckoning at least) that are available in Europe, Asia, etc. I definitely don't fit into the American market demographic, considering what is apparently popular here and what is not. :cry:

I'm right with you there, mate! I love small cars, especially hatchbacks.

[Kal-El]

It's all about market demand, and when it comes to the US, sub-compacts just aren't doing it. It's depressing looking at Yaris sales the last several years. Almost so low that Toyota could justify pulling it from the US.

Meanwhile, full size trucks and the SUV/crossover market continues to explode. Americans pay some of the lowest prices in the world for gas. We have the widest roads. Cars are among the lowest priced here. Americans like to carry lots of stuff, and go on road trips. So it's only natural that it's tough to be a small car in America.

[NYC-SE]

Americans pay some of the lowest prices in the world for gas. We have the widest roads. Cars are among the lowest priced here. Americans like to carry lots of stuff, and go on road trips.

All that was true 30 years ago as well and our cars and trucks were significantly smaller then.

[NYC-SE]

This is a neat little car: the Kia Venga. Available in Europe, but of course we can't get it here in the US.

I got to ride in one of these when I was in Europe last year. Nice car. Bigger on the inside than you would think from looking at it. (Same can be said for the Yaris). I would consider it if it made it to the States but we all know that's not going to happen.

[Hershey]

Mitsubishi Mirage DEs' w/ 5 speed manual are going for less than $10,000 . $3,500 rebate . Tempting , but book value plummets .

[Kal-El]

All that was true 30 years ago as well and our cars and trucks were significantly smaller then.

For the period of the '80s and '90's and into the earlier 2000's, perhaps. What about all the decades previous? Remember the land yachts that used to cover our roads? These cars were significantly bigger than today's full size cars. Back then, the only real successful small car was the VW Beetle.

[Kal-El]

Mitsubishi Mirage DEs' w/ 5 speed manual are going for less than $10,000 . $3,500 rebate . Tempting , but book value plummets .

The Mirage is so bad, it shouldn't even be sold in the US. It's 3rd world material. It's the worst car sold in the US. Not nearly worth it's low price. Mitsubishi is on it's way to dying. They can no longer compete. You could get a far better Nissan Versa for nearly the same price.

[Kalispel]

The Mirage is so bad, it shouldn't even be sold in the US. It's 3rd world material. It's the worst car sold in the US. Not nearly worth it's low price. Mitsubishi is on it's way to dying. They can no longer compete. You could get a far better Nissan Versa for nearly the same price.

I'm not a fan of the styling, but Nissan must be doing something right, considering how many Versa's they sell monthly in the USA compared to other available subcompacts.

[BLKHILLSGUY]

I would really like Toyota to bring the Aygo to America. That little car is funky.

[kimona]

The newest Aygo is rather "funky" looking... kind of a blending of Yaris, Nissan Leaf, and Kia Soul.

[NYC-SE]

The newest Aygo is rather "funky" looking... kind of a blending of Yaris, Nissan Leaf, and Kia Soul.

Yeah...I liked the previous generation better. (As far as looks go. I've never driven one.)

[Thirty-Nine]

The Mirage is so bad, it shouldn't even be sold in the US. It's 3rd world material. It's the worst car sold in the US. Not nearly worth it's low price. Mitsubishi is on it's way to dying. They can no longer compete. You could get a far better Nissan Versa for nearly the same price.

While it might be Spartan, it's also selling well for Mitsubishi. And while Mitsu sales are pretty low compared to other automakers, I don't see them leaving the U.S.

[Kalispel]

The newest Aygo is rather "funky" looking... kind of a blending of Yaris, Nissan Leaf, and Kia Soul.

Not a fan of the taillights, but everything else I could deal with if the car was black (or perhaps dark gray) - though that car is about a small I would ever go with a vehicle. I wish Toyota would have brought that here instead of the IQ.

[BLKHILLSGUY]

While it might be Spartan, it's also selling well for Mitsubishi. And while Mitsu sales are pretty low compared to other automakers, I don't see them leaving the U.S.

I don't get the hate for the Mirage. It is what is. It's similar to a Ford Festiva and Geo Metro from the 90s. Both of those cars were good cars. My first new car was a 91 Ford Festiva. All Mazda made and put together by an unknown company called Kia. Then shipped over to the US for sale. The car was bulletproof. I still see them and a few Metros on the road 25 yrs later. And brand new they were around $5k. That's pretty good that they are still kicking ass 25 yrs later. So I appreciate the Mirage for the simplicity that it offers. Nothing wrong with that at all.

[bronsin]

I looked a the Mirage a couple of years ago. Yes it is what it is and thats a very poorly made car compared with the Yaris. Hey it might hold up OK. Im really leery of the CVT in it. LOVE the 1200cc engine!

My evaluation is a used Yaris would be a better bet than the Mirage. I paid $10,000 after tax for a Toyota certified used Yaris for my son two years ago with 50k on it. A little pricey but Toyota went thru it and replaced the battery, tires, wipers etc and guaranteed it for a year. Boy that car looked like new! Would have preferred a private sale but there wasnt time to wait for the right car.

There was the Subaru Justy along with the Metro and Festiva back in the day. All worthy vehicles. My gut says the Mirage is a cut below those though...

[Thirty-Nine]

I agree that a used Yaris is likely a better deal than the Mirage. I can only imagine the depreciation on a new Mirage. That being said, a lot of buyers want a warranty, and the Mirage has a damn good one. 5 year/60,000 bumper-to-bumper warranty, 10 year, 100,000 mile powertrain warranty, 7 year/100,000 mile anti-corrosion warranty. Out of a $12,000 car, that's damn good.

I'd be lying if I didn't say I'd thought about owning a Mirage. Great mileage, new car, low price, awesome warranty. There's a lot to like. Yes, it's basic, yes it's build quality isn't as good as the Yaris. Yes, the depreciation is terrible. But if you keep cars a long time, depreciation isn't an issue. No, it's not powerful, no it doesn't handle that great, but it's likely the handling can be remedied by the aftermarket.

If I were to buy a Mirage (which I likely won't; I likely won't buy anything to replace the Yaris unless it was totaled), I'd wait for the redesigned '17 model which looks a lot nicer.

56777

(Side note: I've had my Yaris for nearly nine years—the longest I've ever owned a car! Before that, my record was TWO YEARS!)

[yougojay]

I like that Aygo, I would drive it no problem. Thanks for posting the photos of it. back in the day, there were a bunch of neat small pick-up trucks. They have all gotten SO big, I wouldn't want one. Wish Toyota made a SMALL pick-up still.

[Kalispel]

I agree that a used Yaris is likely a better deal than the Mirage. I can only imagine the depreciation on a new Mirage. That being said, a lot of buyers want a warranty, and the Mirage has a damn good one. 5 year/60,000 bumper-to-bumper warranty, 10 year, 100,000 mile powertrain warranty, 7 year/100,000 mile anti-corrosion warranty. Out of a $12,000 car, that's damn good.

I'd be lying if I didn't say I'd thought about owning a Mirage. Great mileage, new car, low price, awesome warranty. There's a lot to like. Yes, it's basic, yes it's build quality isn't as good as the Yaris. Yes, the depreciation is terrible. But if you keep cars a long time, depreciation isn't an issue. No, it's not powerful, no it doesn't handle that great, but it's likely the handling can be remedied by the aftermarket.

If I were to buy a Mirage (which I likely won't; I likely won't buy anything to replace the Yaris unless it was totaled), I'd wait for the redesigned '17 model which looks a lot nicer.

56777

(Side note: I've had my Yaris for nearly nine years—the longest I've ever owned a car! Before that, my record was TWO YEARS!)

The 2017 pictured definitely has some Honda styling cues going on there in the front bumper area, though not as extreme. It's better looking than the Fit, that's for sure.

[Thirty-Nine]

The 2017 pictured definitely has some Honda styling cues going on there in the front bumper area, though not as extreme. It's better looking than the Fit, that's for sure.

I couldn't agree more.

It will be interesting to see what Toyota does for '17 with the Yaris hatch. Or perhaps the better question is will Toyota continue to offer the Yaris hatch or simply go with the iA?

[Kalispel]

I couldn't agree more.

It will be interesting to see what Toyota does for '17 with the Yaris hatch. Or perhaps the better question is will Toyota continue to offer the Yaris hatch or simply go with the iA?

True. The Corolla iM hatchback may become the new de-facto compact hatchback for Toytota, especially considering how poor sales are with the Yaris subcompact hatchback.

[WeeYari]

Interesting. Here in Canada, Toyota is advertising it simply as the iM. No mention of the Corolla moniker at all.

[wooverstone8]

I spotted a new 2017 Mitsubishi Mirage at a local new car dealership lot. The refresh front looks pretty good IMHO.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/wooverstone8/001_zpskc2ozmna.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wooverstone8/media/001_zpskc2ozmna.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/wooverstone8/002_zpsvbfik0yv.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wooverstone8/media/002_zpsvbfik0yv.jpg.html)

It still has those little 165/65/R14 tires...

[BLKHILLSGUY]

I spotted a new 2017 Mitsubishi Mirage at a local new car dealership lot. The refresh front looks pretty good IMHO.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/wooverstone8/001_zpskc2ozmna.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wooverstone8/media/001_zpskc2ozmna.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/wooverstone8/002_zpsvbfik0yv.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wooverstone8/media/002_zpsvbfik0yv.jpg.html)

It still has those little 165/65/R14 tires...

Reminds me a lot of the 90s Festivas and Metros. Decent, reliable transportation. I wish they made more cars like that. In particular, Toyota. Now that gas is moving up maybe fuel economy will become a focus again.

[Kalispel]

It tells you a lot about the basic selfishness of the general population that the only time they are worried about 'fuel economy' is when gas prices are going higher. Very telling indeed.

[jayeh]

All that was true 30 years ago as well and our cars and trucks were significantly smaller then.
But still probably bigger than the rest of the worlds cars...


It tells you a lot about the basic selfishness of the general population that the only time they are worried about 'fuel economy' is when gas prices are going higher. Very telling indeed.

Fuel economy is getting better though... Safety and Reliability are also at all time highs. What is the downside?

Look at Toyota Vans. a 1984 Toyota Van got 19/22mpg and a 2016 Sienna gets 18/25 mpg, you don't have to get your feet going like fred flintstone to get on to the highway and in a crash you're probably going to just open the door and get out and walk away.

[MugenRep]

People don't want small cars. If gas was $6/gallon that would change, but hte iQ failed not only for how small it was, but for no manual transmission, no power, 3+1 seating, etc. People want "SELF PRESERVATION SOCIETY" not little cars. :p

[Hershey]

Planning to try out the '17 Mirage hatch and the G4 when it arrives . The G4 ( Mirage sedan ) reminds me of the Yaris sedan . People are getting the leftover '15 Mirages for less than $9,500 ( manual ) . It costs $1,000+ for an extended warranty from Toyota Honda , etc.. So the powertrain of 10 yrs. /100,000 mis. is a bonus at the $9,500 or less . The powertrain is now transferable for the '17s . Maybe that'll help the depriciation that's a downfall of the Mirage .

[Hershey]

Yes , gas demand is up and OPEC ( Saudi Arabia ) is putting out less oil . Here we go again for the 3rd time . Large vehicles are selling like hot cakes . Never learn .

[BLKHILLSGUY]

People don't want small cars. If gas was $6/gallon that would change, but hte iQ failed not only for how small it was, but for no manual transmission, no power, 3+1 seating, etc. People want "SELF PRESERVATION SOCIETY" not little cars. :p

Not to mention Scion did not make the car look anything like the funky concept, which would have been super easy to make. And the interior was boring and drab. A cool interior is in the new 500s and the Smarts. Even the Toyota Aygo had a better interior than the IQ. Toyota made some critical errors with that car. I was seriously contemplating purchasing one. But for the above reasons anf no manual, I wasn't nearly as interested.

[BLKHILLSGUY]

It tells you a lot about the basic selfishness of the general population that the only time they are worried about 'fuel economy' is when gas prices are going higher. Very telling indeed.

Extremely selfish. Whether it is the gluttony for meat which cause a lot of environmental damage and takes a lot of the earth's resources for very little product, Americans are very selfish. And bigger vehicles with no concern for gas mileage.

[wooverstone8]

Not to mention Scion did not make the car look anything like the funky concept, which would have been super easy to make. And the interior was boring and drab. A cool interior is in the new 500s and the Smarts. Even the Toyota Aygo had a better interior than the IQ. Toyota made some critical errors with that car. I was seriously contemplating purchasing one. But for the above reasons anf no manual, I wasn't nearly as interested.

Completely agree.

I wish the iQ had better color options too. Like kiwi green, yellow, red, purple metallic etc. The only funky color they had was orange metallic. The rest were pretty conservative.

[jcboy]

Extremely selfish. Whether it is the gluttony for meat which cause a lot of environmental damage and takes a lot of the earth's resources for very little product, Americans are very selfish. And bigger vehicles with no concern for gas mileage.

its not just Americans. if anything, the American market actually seems to be appreciating small cars more and more lately. couldnt say for the rest of the world, including Asia, where the land area isn't nearly as big, and i'm sure the roads aren't as wide either--cars are getting bigger and bigger.

So much that the 2013 onwards (latest Gen) of Yaris Sedan (Vios) paid the penalty just to be bigger, the fuel mileage of 13km/L for the 2008-12 Yaris went down to 6.7km/L. (bigger body, same "skeleton", wheelbase, engine and tranny, etc.)

[junorico24]

There's the VW up, Nissan Micra, Suzuki Alto, and of course Mitsubisi Mirage.

The alto is an interesting one.

[Kal-El]

There's the VW up, Nissan Micra, Suzuki Alto, and of course Mitsubisi Mirage.

The alto is an interesting one.

Except for the Mirage, none of them are in the US. And the Mirage barely sells.

I don't think it's been mentioned in this thread but there is the Fiat 500, although it's just 2 door and too small for most to be practical. And poor reliability...

[Kal-El]

It's all about making a business case to sell small cars in the US. Many try, many have failed. Like any business, money has to be made on these models and too often, not enough money is not made.

Just as with the sports car segment. Remember in the '90's all the Japanese sports cars that were out - Supra, 300GT, RX-7, 300ZX,....then they were all killed off by the end of the decade. Everyone said they wanted them but didn't buy them. Then, even the long running Camaro was killed off. It wasn't until the mid to late 2000's that automakers gave the segment another shot and other than the Mustang and Camaro, it's still a slow going segment. What sells is what is made.

[bronsin]

What sells is what is made.

True! But thanks Toyota for the ECHO and Yaris! :thumbsup:

[junorico24]

It's all about making a business case to sell small cars in the US. Many try, many have failed. Like any business, money has to be made on these models and too often, not enough money is not made.

Just as with the sports car segment. Remember in the '90's all the Japanese sports cars that were out - Supra, 300GT, RX-7, 300ZX,....then they were all killed off by the end of the decade. Everyone said they wanted them but didn't buy them. Then, even the long running Camaro was killed off. It wasn't until the mid to late 2000's that automakers gave the segment another shot and other than the Mustang and Camaro, it's still a slow going segment. What sells is what is made.


:eek:

It really surprises me that you guys don't get these vehicles over there.

Anyway we have these vehicles and Chinese brands too like Chery and Great Wall motors. Malaysia's Proton and of course Koreans lesser known company Ssangyong motors.

But going by what i see these vehicles are popular with younger buyers mostly young teens getting their license. The Yaris, Mazda 2 and Suzuki Swift are selling like hot cakes to old, young, middle aged groups.

Vw up, Mirage, Micra and Alto not so much in my opinion. They just don't match up well with lil big bros like the Yaris, Mazda 2 or Suzuki Swift.:thumbsup:

But then again i haven't driven one only seen them on the road ,the other day i saw an ALTO for a 3 cylinder it can hold it's own on motorway traffic. Same can be said for the Micra and Mirage imo.Vw up for all the hype when it first came out. Boy has it died down quickly.Most people won't buy these cars because they are not popular yet.

[Thirty-Nine]

Wow—surprised to see the '17s on the lots already.

[MugenRep]

Not to mention Scion did not make the car look anything like the funky concept, which would have been super easy to make. And the interior was boring and drab. A cool interior is in the new 500s and the Smarts. Even the Toyota Aygo had a better interior than the IQ. Toyota made some critical errors with that car. I was seriously contemplating purchasing one. But for the above reasons anf no manual, I wasn't nearly as interested.

The concept was exactly that, a concept. Very rarely does a production car look anything like a hand-built concept. Aygo and Fiat definitely have a better looking interior but the Fiat had harder plastics than the iQ. The iQ is soft touch, more front mid engine, and the CVT actually isn't as bad as one would expect. Once you realize you can just stick it in "B" and the rpms just sit at 6000rpms through the entire 1/4 mile (if that's how you're measuring). Being short wheelbase at 78.8" it actually handles pretty well once you dump the 175 width tires. The differential and front sway of the car is also in front of the engine and the 1NRFE sits leaning back behind the front strut towers effectively making it front-Mid engine like some odd old Renaults. It also has 7.5 degrees of caster from the factory to boot. Other than a slow power plant (17.4 @ 80mph quarter mile). It's a pretty decent little car that's shorter than the original classic mini, albeit taller.

[BLKHILLSGUY]

The concept was exactly that, a concept. Very rarely does a production car look anything like a hand-built concept. Aygo and Fiat definitely have a better looking interior but the Fiat had harder plastics than the iQ. The iQ is soft touch, more front mid engine, and the CVT actually isn't as bad as one would expect. Once you realize you can just stick it in "B" and the rpms just sit at 6000rpms through the entire 1/4 mile (if that's how you're measuring). Being short wheelbase at 78.8" it actually handles pretty well once you dump the 175 width tires. The differential and front sway of the car is also in front of the engine and the 1NRFE sits leaning back behind the front strut towers effectively making it front-Mid engine like some odd old Renaults. It also has 7.5 degrees of caster from the factory to boot. Other than a slow power plant (17.4 @ 80mph quarter mile). It's a pretty decent little car that's shorter than the original classic mini, albeit taller.

I get that BUT the concept IQ was not overly difficult with tons of different curves and huge tires, etc. It had a great design that could have easily been replicated and they offered boring, drab colors. That is why the Spark has sold so well. It offered neat colors and the first generation had a funky little look.

[BLKHILLSGUY]

I just don't know why Subaru doesn't make the small hatchback Justy again. I always wanted one, but had a Ford Festiva instead. A small hatchback that has AWD is perfect.

[aspro]

I just don't know why Subaru doesn't make the small hatchback Justy again. I always wanted one, but had a Ford Festiva instead. A small hatchback that has AWD is perfect.

Yeah, just like the suzuki sx4. Awd in a small hatch is gold. Too bad the company went belly up. I was waiting for them to join the trend of factory boosted hot hatches but it never happened.

[BLKHILLSGUY]

Yeah, just like the suzuki sx4. Awd in a small hatch is gold. Too bad the company went belly up. I was waiting for them to join the trend of factory boosted hot hatches but it never happened.

I agree. I think my next car is going to be a Subaru as Toyota doesn't offer anything small with AWD. The 17 Impreza is a HUGE step forward. Honda should be a little nervous.

[Thirty-Nine]

I just don't know why Subaru doesn't make the small hatchback Justy again. I always wanted one, but had a Ford Festiva instead. A small hatchback that has AWD is perfect.

YES x 11 billion! I actually do know why they don't make one, at least yet, and that's because they don't need to.

That being said, the Impreza keeps growing and growing. The 2017 Impreza is growing again. At some point, the Impreza will likely be be as big as the Legacy and they'll slot something under it, much like Honda did with the ever-growing Civic (then we got the Fit).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/Tekka_Maki/WRX/esm001_zpsphtffjyq.jpg

I would buy a small AWD Subaru in a heartbeat. We love our '13 WRX.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/Tekka_Maki/Suzuki%20SX4/baja-rack-suzuki-sx4.jpg

FYI, I owned two Suzuki SX4s (a 2009 and 2010). I'd still have the '10 if Suzuki had stayed in the U.S., but was worried about repairs and warranty stuff, whether justified or not. It was a great little AWD rig. Did great in snow and sand, too. I kind of miss it from time to time.

[MugenRep]

I really wish some short wheelbase FR would hit the shoes too. I've always had a soft spot for the Suzuki Cappuccino and would loved to have seen even a slightly bigger one in the US.