rotrex supercharger

[sdmf]

ok i was surfing the net and i stumbled upon this beauty. http://www.rotrex.com/ i saw some of the numbers this s/c and wow, its more efficient than a turbo, (maintainance, cooling, lifespan, etc.) the only problem is you have to make your own piping, the numbers are waay better than the blitz sc. anyone know how to do some mandrel bending?

[turboyaris]

http://www.w2wpowertrain.com/pc-25-64-c30-64-head-unit-100-280hp.aspx
don't know if there is enough room, but that would be easy enough to check out by looking and taking some measuring. I couldn't tell you overall costs of a kit with piping and all, but it would be something to check out. Depending on the diameter of the piping and the angle of the bend, you don't always have to have it mandrel bent.

[eTiMaGo]

Those are some pretty impressive units, but not cheap, you'll be looking at roughly the same pricing as a turbo kit, which would end up giving you more power, and more expandability options...

[joey1320]

Those are some pretty impressive units, but not cheap, you'll be looking at roughly the same pricing as a turbo kit, which would end up giving you more power, and more expandability options...

true. if you went turbo you could always add boost/upgrade to bigger turbo. with the rotrex you can't push it pass its limits. and at the end of it all you wont save any money with the rotrex.

[spkrman]

Yea the rotrex itself is pretty pricey, but IMO its a great pick anyway.

The piping wouldnt get too crazy... could probably DIY if you made the cuts and took it to any welder.

I'd look into it at least... i think you may have some pulley issues though.

[sdmf]

well sure its a lil pricey but superchargers have power on demand with no lag. how many horses do you want on a yaris anyway, i was only hoping to get to the 200 mark, which would totally be possible with the rotrex, it acts like a turbo but less maintainance and no cooling issues. unlike the turbo. i also noticed s/c last longer than turbos. its about the same price as the zpi kit. i should start saving then we can have s/c vs. turbo showdown. hehehehe

[largeorangefont]

well sure its a lil pricey but superchargers have power on demand with no lag. how many horses do you want on a yaris anyway, i was only hoping to get to the 200 mark, which would totally be possible with the rotrex, it acts like a turbo but less maintainance and no cooling issues. unlike the turbo. i also noticed s/c last longer than turbos. its about the same price as the zpi kit. i should start saving then we can have s/c vs. turbo showdown. hehehehe



Thats not entirely true. A rotrex is a centrifugal supercharger, meaning it is nearly identical in functionality and design to a turbo coldside. It is just mechanically driven as opposed to exhaust driven. Only positive displacement blowers (roots, and twin screw types, Blitz is a roots type) offer instant full boost with no lag. Centrifugals still need to "spool up" a bit before they hit full boost.

As far as maintenence and heat, they are all close to the same. The turbo hotside will add a little extra heat, but it is more efficient than a supercharger.

[Toymaniac]

Nice product


wonder how much you can play with the pulley to boost up power...

but still i would rather stick with a sc12 for a small engine like the 1nzfe

[sdmf]

looks easier to install, hks made a s/c kit using the rotrex s/c. got over 100hp boost

[Nutzoids]

I spoke with Brian from Underdog Racing Development...

http://www.urdusa.com/contact_us.php

He was very excited to hear that there is a Rotrex Supercharger Interest in the Yaris Community...

We spoke on the phone for about 15 min...He was asking me about what options we have now, The power band, When the Internals need to be changed out...

And I was asking him about the Rotrex system... He says anything less then 10Lbs of boost we shouldn't need an Intercooler... That should keep price down!

He wants to know just how much Interest there would be in this Unit...

Lets Stir up some noise!

:evil:

[redglare45]

The Rotrex supercharger has been discussed a bit, a couple of months back.
Jackson Racing uses them and there didn't seem to be much interest then, for them to build one. Atleast that's what it seems like. Please check out this previous thread:

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3797&highlight=jackson+racing

You can check out their site, where they talk about Rotrex S/C.

http://www.jacksonracing.com/production.htm

If Underdog Racing will build one, then props to them.

[sdmf]

i wouldnt mind having one

[wah]

+1

[lostmind]

If I were to buy a yaris, and I am dangerously close to it... I would definitely want a bit more power out of it.

What I'd want is more low end power, to make lane changes and city driving a bit more easy and fun. I think the problem with a turbo setup is that it doesn't spool until it hits about 3000rpm, which isn't all that fast in a yaris.

However the only supercharged car I ever rode in had power right from the get go. That's what I would want in a yaris. I don't car about top end power or high speeds, I want 0-60km/h times to improve... so if someone could build a supercharger kit that would reliably do the above, I'd be willing to spend about $3500-4000 cad on one. Especially if it was tested on an auto... because then I could buy a yaris, supercharge it for fun and yet still use the car for our daily commuting as the wife doesn't want to drive stick!

I am sure I am not the only guy here with this same desire.... not big HP but just a bit more acceleration without an extreme compromise of the yaris's great gas mileage.

As a matter of fact, if I _knew_ of a kit that did all of this, I'd trade in the TSX for a Yaris yesterday.

[cdydjded]

I had a Rotrex prototype kit made up late last year. The unit fits & its not a complicated kit. One problem, the Rotrex uses a 6 groove pully & our cars use a 3 groove pulley. The belt would not stay in place with a 3 groove pulley. Pullies could me fabricated for the crank, alternator & idler but the A/C compressor pulley would be a problem.

[Nutzoids]

I had a Rotrex prototype kit made up late last year. The unit fits & its not a complicated kit. One problem, the Rotrex uses a 6 groove pully & our cars use a 3 groove pulley. The belt would not stay in place with a 3 groove pulley. Pullies could me fabricated for the crank, alternator & idler but the A/C compressor pulley would be a problem.

DAMN!

:evil:

[uncleyaris]

What kinda coin are you talkin?

[Vanderkitten]

Your supercharger will rob more MPG from your motor than a turbo, and there is no way around it. It adds mechanical drag to you motor whether you're on the boost or not. You lose some rev-speed as well (my non-mechanical term for how fast your motor revs).

The Supercharger tends to be easier on the motors since the boost occurs at lower RPMS, and Turbo spools up later meaning you spend more time in high-revs and detonation is more likely.

IMHO, Superchargers are great for low-revving motors where a Turbo would not spool up and provide adequate advantage or heavy vehicles like any Mercedes or a truck.

I am not sure why the mini cooper S has a supercharger... seems like the wrong move to me... sign me up for the turbo!! After having one in my Jetta GLI 1.8T I'd do it again... but I can see the desire for quick lane changes and possilby autoX being smart applications for the SC.

Turbo v. SC... Shoot it out!! I'd pay to see that!

[eTiMaGo]

I am not sure why the mini cooper S has a supercharger...

The new model Cooper S is now turbocharged :wink:

[sdmf]

well this looks like a job for nst if they decide to make s/c pulleys, that would toatally be sweet. i would be willing to sacrifice some mpg for some pulling power. im not looking to be fast and the furious yaris, just peppy power to get that umph factor, if the xa and xb can have a s/c dont you think we deserve one also

[sdmf]

I had a Rotrex prototype kit made up late last year. The unit fits & its not a complicated kit. One problem, the Rotrex uses a 6 groove pully & our cars use a 3 groove pulley. The belt would not stay in place with a 3 groove pulley. Pullies could me fabricated for the crank, alternator & idler but the A/C compressor pulley would be a problem.

so how did you bypass this problem? or you just took the rotrex out?

[Yaris Revenge]

A friend of mine at work had an old MR2 with a factory supercharger. He said it had an electronically activated "clutch" that allowed the supercharger to freewheel until the pedal was depressed to a certain trigger point. That was on a late 80's/early 90's model... shouldn't all superchargers behave this way by now? If they did, there wouldn't be any real "drag" on the engine during normal operation.

~YR

[Papamoon]

Your supercharger will rob more MPG from your motor than a turbo, and there is no way around it. It adds mechanical drag to you motor whether you're on the boost or not. You lose some rev-speed as well (my non-mechanical term for how fast your motor revs).

A turbo really kills your low end due to all the back pressure of forcing all your exaust through a hole the size of a half dollar.

[Turbo&Auto]

I read in the first few posts that the Rotrex S/C is more efficient then a turbo. That can NEVER be true. It takes power to run it, hence its already less efficient.

For piping, but a universal piping kit on Ebay and piece it together. You can bring the pipes to a local weld shop to have them all welded together if you cant do that part. Its VERY easy to do piping, I've done quite a few cars myself with turbo's or custom CAI's.

[Turbo&Auto]

A turbo really kills your low end due to all the back pressure of forcing all your exaust through a hole the size of a half dollar.

This is total BS. With a properly sized turbo you can have s/c like response with....are you ready....top end performance too :eek:

http://www.nicksturbomatrix.com/beaterdyno.jpg

This is my Accord with the old turbo setup. Its a DSM manifold with a Big 16G turbo. Full boost well before 3K. The car shredded tires coming out of turns no matter the gear. EASILY walk Mustangs!

[Turbo&Auto]

No FI guru's on here to debate huh????

[Carvin'07]

This is total BS. With a properly sized turbo you can have s/c like response with....are you ready....top end performance too :eek:

This is my Accord with the old turbo setup. Its a DSM manifold with a Big 16G turbo. Full boost well before 3K. The car shredded tires coming out of turns no matter the gear. EASILY walk Mustangs!

What size of block are you talking about? There is no way a 1.5L 1NZFE will make that much low end power and top end as well. We just cannot flow that much air...our F-series head is also a big limitation.

On a side note, with a Big16G you should have been able to make much more power. I had a DSM for 3 years and some of my buddies with the B16g were making close to 300 FWHP (disconnected centre diff) on an otherwise stock 2.0L engine. Looks like you had some airflow restrictions.

Carvin'

[largeorangefont]

No FI guru's on here to debate huh????

I wouldnt call that big top end power, but from a driveability standpoint, that setup looks to be very good from the dyno chart. On the street that is what you want anyway.

How much boost were you running? It looks like you had a big 16G with a really small hotside.

[largeorangefont]

What size of block are you talking about? There is no way a 1.5L 1NZFE will make that much low end power and top end as well. We just cannot flow that much air...our F-series head is also a big limitation.

On a side note, with a Big16G you should have been able to make much more power. I had a DSM for 3 years and some of my buddies with the B16g were making close to 300 FWHP (disconnected centre diff) on an otherwise stock 2.0L engine. Looks like you had some airflow restrictions.

Carvin'

Agreed. We aren't going to see much over 200 lb/ft of torque (if it even gets there) with this motor in a stock configuration. The good news is that you can run a small turbo that will spool well and it wont fall off on the top end like the chart above.

[Carvin'07]

Agreed. We aren't going to see much over 200 lb/ft of torque (if it even gets there) with this motor in a stock configuration. The good news is that you can run a small turbo that will spool well and it wont fall off on the top end like the chart above.


Hear hear! I think you might get to 200ft-lbs, but you wouldn't stay there for too long. :biggrin:

A small conventional bearing turbo (e.g. T-25) or medium sized ball-bearing (GT-25R!! :headbang: well maybe a bit big) would probably be best for this engine. Quick spool is what we need really.

[Jujufruit]

Does anyone know why Toyota is so adamant about using the F series engines? I mean, there are so many limitations about the F series heads from a NA standpoint (unless you got lotsa $$$) that it seems to put Toyota in the lowest level as far as engine performance goes.

I've always found that torque is the main enemy of a FF if it springs to early, being able to have a broader powerband with a high HP low torque motor seems to perform the best overall. Guess I just don't understand why Toyota doesn't want performance motors when the 4a-g motor was so popular, and even that wasn't the most Uber, but it did have amazing qualities.

I guess I really like the Vitz, but I'm really dissapointed with the motor so far, seems like the Fit has much more potential, especially from a NA standpoint.

[largeorangefont]

It is built as an economy car. Toyota does not care about power.

[Jujufruit]

I'm asking about all of their engines. Apparently, even the car that Toyota has marketed as a M3 fighter, still uses a F series engine. If they ever came out with a new Supra, they'd probably still use a F series engine. Toyota seems to be the new Oldsmobile, they had their hey day, but now all they've got is economy. If they came out with a sport Yaris, it'd probably just have a lip kit and fog lights. I just don't understand why they are so obsessed with F series motors. Isn't there supposed to be a trickle down effect with their racing in F1? I'm just not understanding why there has to be no real "performance" engines in the Toyota lineup. With the Celica GT-s gone, what real performer is there engine wise? F series motors are not my cup of tea I guess. I love their cars (family has always been since the 70's) and I've driven my share of their performance cars over the years, but I am just very dissappointed with their performance division, and with the "F" type Lexi coming out to compete with BMW and Benz, what are they going to do for the Toyota name brand? I like Lexus and all, but I still don't hold that appreciation for "Lexus". That means luxury to me, but I would rather have the circle with a T in it instead of an L.

[Carvin'07]

Hey jujufruit,

It is all strictly economics. Toyota is number 1 for a reason: they sell cars literally by the boatloads because people love them.

Car enthusiasts are a very small portion of their intended demographic. Sure, if they produced more G-series motors that would be great (!!!), however their cost/unit produced would increase because the total amount sold would decrease. Let's face it, Jane and John with their 2 kids do not want a 1.6L high revving, low torque motor that they have to shift 4 times to get to 65km/h. They want an 2.0L econo-slushbox that will get them to the Loblaws and do it quietly (i.e. below 2000 rpm with a torque-focused powerband) and without causing the neighbours to raise their eyebrows.

Yep Supra TTs and are great, but how many did Toyota sell??? Probably a whole heck of a lot less than they did Corolla sedans with the 4AFE.

Just my 2 cents for what they are worth!
Carvin'

[uncleyaris]

I agree Carvin.

[largeorangefont]

Yep Supra TTs and are great, but how many did Toyota sell??? Probably a whole heck of a lot less than they did Corolla sedans with the 4AFE.


Carvin'

I read somewhere that there were less than 8000 Supras produced for America from 93-97. Not sure if that is 100% accurate though, but seems resonable.

[Carvin'07]

Pin that against the current claim of 30 million Corollas ever produced. That's strict economics my friend! [ok, end Off Topic]

Carvin'

[sdmf]

yea my thread has been hijacked. wtf, all i wanna know is if can be done, and if yes how much will it cost. if you wanna talk engines make your own damn thread. thank you

[Carvin'07]

ok i was surfing the net and i stumbled upon this beauty. http://www.rotrex.com/ i saw some of the numbers this s/c and wow, its more efficient than a turbo, (maintainance, cooling, lifespan, etc.) the only problem is you have to make your own piping, the numbers are waay better than the blitz sc. anyone know how to do some mandrel bending?

Hey there,

Sorry for continuing the OT.

To directly answer your questions, yes it can be done with some money and determination. In Chicago, there should be loads of shops that can do mandrel bending. Look in your yellow pages at exhaust shops. Usually there are only a few around (mandrel anding machines are expensive), but they should be there. If not, you can always buy universal bends and silicone couplers off of ebay. Just make sure you get good T-bolt clamps to hold back that newly found pressure you will be making!

As others have indicated, the S/C route is a good option if you want moderate, low end torque increases, but limits ultimate the ease of future power upgrades.

You could have a pulled milled from stock aluminum, but that will cost you big bucks. You might want to try out an xA or xB (??) pulley, I can't remember which was mentioned earlier to see if it will fit our needs.

Cheers and good luck with your project.
Carvin'

[cdydjded]

Carvin: Bending pipes is the least of you worries. Read my previous post, our engines pulley system is not enough to support the Rotrex pully requierments. Why are you speculating or guesing if the Rotrex will work?

[eTiMaGo]

Carvin: Bending pipes is the least of you worries. Read my previous post, our engines pulley system is not enough to support the Rotrex pully requierments. Why are you speculating or guesing if the Rotrex will work?


You could have a pulled milled from stock aluminum, but that will cost you big bucks. You might want to try out an xA or xB (??) pulley, I can't remember which was mentioned earlier to see if it will fit our needs.


Basically, our Yarii use a single pulley system while the xA/xB use a double pulley, hence it may be possible to use the extra pulley groove to run the supercharger. But the best bet would still be a custom-made one.

[sdmf]

so i guess its just a pipe dream for now. i will just play the w8n game til companies make some serious products for our car. like i said just wanted to hit close to the 200 mark, with a better low end reponse. so the rotrex was the way i wanted to go.

[cdydjded]

Basically, our Yarii use a single pulley system while the xA/xB use a double pulley, hence it may be possible to use the extra pulley groove to run the supercharger. But the best bet would still be a custom-made one.

The single pulley is not the problem, its the amount of grooves our pulleys have. A minimal of 5 is needed but 6 is what Rotrex suggest

[cdydjded]

so i guess its just a pipe dream for now. i will just play the w8n game til companies make some serious products for our car. like i said just wanted to hit close to the 200 mark, with a better low end reponse. so the rotrex was the way i wanted to go.

200HP to the wheels or flywheel? Do you realize that the turbo kit that ZPI has available did 175hp to the wheels? That is over 200hp @ the flywheel. Plus 170LB of torque. As for low end response, turbos have advanced 10 folds in the last 5 years. Lag is almost a thing of the past. If you pick the proper turbo built specifically for the size of the engine.

[sdmf]

well how about the heat dissapation?

[cdydjded]

well how about the heat dissapation?

I think you are trying to reinvent the wheel. Run a intercooled 5-7lb of boost kit & you get 175hp to the wheels. What more do you want? More power? Install a set of lower compression pistons & a set of rods. Now you will be over 200hp. In a 2300lb car that is 11.5hp per pound. That is better than a new Z06 Vette.

[DoriKnights]

s/c cool, but its more stress on that tourqe struglin 1.5. Would rather boost off the exhaust rather than put more stress on the crank

[cali yaris]

Dear Underdog Racing,

+1 interest

[RShatchback]

+2 - I've got the money, I'm just waiting on someone to release a supercharger or maybe even two different companies, so i can make a comparison before buying it. But I'm waiting...

[sdmf]

so ur saying there's a chance:w00t: couldnt someone just modify the rotrex pulley to 3 groove?

[eTiMaGo]

Anything's possible... If you don't believe it, go grab a DVD of that TV show Monster Garage... :biggrin: