finally found the 5w-20 TSB...

[static808]

i was wondering if anyone out there has started using the 20 weight oil, and whether any benefits have arisen?? a few others on different boards have stated decent increases in mpg. unfortunately, i've purchased enough amsoil ASL 5w-30 to last me 2 oil changes, but i'm thinking of switching to their 0w-20 on both my sienna (3MZ) and yaris (1NZ), since both their engines are clearly on the list. should be good timing since gas will probably be around 4 bucks/gallon when that time comes around...

--B

[Blenjar]

interesting..this should answer few questions.
should remakte and sticky it.

-- Blen

[YamilR]

can you post the pdf file for download?

[ChinoCharles]

EDIT: I know BlackYaris is running the 5W-20 water oil that TSB suggests. I make typos too. :biggrin:

[esquiva]

0w-20?...doesn't it read that 5w-20 is for our engines?

[Kaotic Lazagna]

i'm running 5W-20 Mobile 1 right now. i've experienced an increase in mpg. and it seems a little smoother.

[jamal1984]

yeah the thing said 5w-20 for our engine

[sambo42xa]

(2 post before me....) Read the TSB where it shows/says at the bottom, "oil recommended for these engines". If Your engine code falls in the list, then I do not see a problem using the 0-20 from what I understand after reading static808 TSB.
I will look at my "code" and if it is in the list I will try the 0-20 weight on my next oil change.
static808, I'm curious on the warranty part. There is nothing there. Does this mean NO WARRANTY if you use/change over to the 0-20??
Also, how did you obtain this TSB; something You found online; work for TOYOTA???

thnx.,
sambo42xa
Southern, NH

[jamal1984]

our engine code is fall into 5w-20, but if someone else recommended 0w-20 then i guess we can use it, but as far as i see is our engine code is in 5w-20 list.

[ROCKLAND TOYOTA]

do not use the 0w20 oil. its is not for our motors.......

[jmjonesey]

wow everyone is either totally for it or against it

when will the madness stop!?

[Nutzoids]

Found a list of TSB for the Yaris... I just can't look at them...

Unless someone has an ALLDATA login?

TSB Number & Issue Date TSB Title
EL002-07 JAN 07 Charging System - Charge Warning Lamp ON
EL001-07 JAN 07 Electrical - Multiple Warning Lamps/Can't Shift A/T
PA001-07 JAN 07 Body - Replacement Bumper Cover Refinishing
BO023R-06 DEC 06 Restraints - Seat Belt Extenders
PG001R-06 NOV 06 Electrical - Battery Maintenance and Testing
PA002-06 NOV 06 Paint - Stains Under Rapgard (R)
SU007-06 OCT 06 Suspension - Shock Absorber Replacement Criteria
NV009-06 SEP 06 Body - Upper/Lower Windshield Ticking Noise
TC013-06 SEP 06 A/T - Reman Transmission Serial Number Locations
TC012-06 SEP 06 A/T - Serial Number Locations
EG035R-06 AUG 06 Exhaust System - Excessive Sulfur Odor
BO011-06 JUL 06 Interior - Park Brake Lever Boot Catches on Console
NV004-06 MAY 06 Interior - Front Seat Squeak Noise
BO017R-03 APR 06 Body - Interior Trim Panels/Garnish Loose
ST005R-01 APR 06 Steering - Vehicle Pulls To One Side Manual Supplement

:evil:

[jamal1984]

the only thing i am really don't understand that is if 5w-20 and 0w-20 is really good for our engine then why don't they listed in our manual but instead of 5w-30?

[jmjonesey]

the only thing i am really don't understand that is if 5w-20 and 0w-20 is really good for our engine then why don't they listed in our manual but instead of 5w-30?

What?! you didnt get the e-paper manual? all you have to do is take your manual to the dealership and get the new auto updating manual that keeps up with toyota's changes on-the-fly

:thumbsup:

[jamal1984]

What?! you didnt get the e-paper manual? all you have to do is take your manual to the dealership and get the new auto updating manual that keeps up with toyota's changes on-the-fly

:thumbsup:

No i dind't receive nothing from them.

[static808]

Also, how did you obtain this TSB; something You found online; work for TOYOTA???

thnx.,
sambo42xa
Southern, NH

i actually found this on my other board, siennaclub.org. people over there are just as torn as people over here regarding switching over or not. im giving it a shot since we all could use the extra mpg, and i just called toyota's customer experience line, and they stated that as long as our engine is listed in the tsb, our warranties will be covered as usual, should anything happen because of the use of 20 weight oil.

with regards to using 0w-20, instead of 5w-20, amsoil only carries an 0w-20, and they state that it is intended to replace conventional 5w-20 as well. they also mention how honda, toyota and gm are starting to recommend using 20 weight oil. its just like their series 2000 0w-30 oil; it is intended to replace 5w-30 oil also. same viscosity characteristics as the 5w's, just better cold weather start-up. an 0w designation also simply means a synthetic formula, since i cant find a conventional-dino 0w oil. its odd how this tsb actually "unofficially" has toyota endorsing synthetic oil use. i dont want to start another convetional vs synthetic debate, but i just wanted to post this thread out there for people who had heard of this tsb but actually could never find it. now we can all start getting better mpg without wondering whether using this weight oil will adversely affect our engines... hope this helps!

--B

[static808]

can you post the pdf file for download?

here ya go...

--B

[drifto]

the only thing i am really don't understand that is if 5w-20 and 0w-20 is really good for our engine then why don't they listed in our manual but instead of 5w-30?
TSB's are the most current info for our car supplied by toyota. sometimes the manufacturer may find something that is better for or car or fixes a common problem in our car. things are constantly updated due to common customer complaints etc. the TSB's are the most up to date information so they superceed any info in our owners manuals. the techs use them everyday to repair and service our cars. thus any info in the owners manual can be updated at any time. dealerships usually make the updates automatically when you bring your car in for service. sometimes you have to ask though...:rolleyes:
(2 post before me....) Read the TSB where it shows/says at the bottom, "oil recommended for these engines". If Your engine code falls in the list, then I do not see a problem using the 0-20 from what I understand after reading static808 TSB.
I will look at my "code" and if it is in the list I will try the 0-20 weight on my next oil change.
static808, I'm curious on the warranty part. There is nothing there. Does this mean NO WARRANTY if you use/change over to the 0-20??
Also, how did you obtain this TSB; something You found online; work for TOYOTA???

th
sambo42xa
Southern, NH
there is no warranty info b/c its only updating the grade of oil used during an oil change at the dealership. oil changes are not warranteed. if it were say a defective radio unit. then you would see warrantee information explaining that a new unit is under warrantee etc. hope this helps explain things a little.

[PetersRedYaris]

If the TSB say's 5w-20, use 5w-20. You guy's are willing to use 0w-20 in it's place because AMSoil doesn't have a 5w-20? Switch brands!!! Follow the CAR manufacturers recommendation, not the oils. I know it probably makes no difference, but neither does using AMSoil over Mobil 1. They are equally good, but one comes in the recommended weight. :rolleyes:

[static808]

If the TSB say's 5w-20, use 5w-20. You guy's are willing to use 0w-20 in it's place because AMSoil doesn't have a 5w-20? Switch brands!!!

actually, im using the 0w-20 because of its added benefits. if i were to use mobil 1, which is very good oil i agree, i would also use their 0w-20. according to the mobil1 website:

"In addition to providing benefits for hybrid engines, Mobil 1 0W-20 is ideal for use in newer cars, trucks and SUVs manufactured by Honda, Toyota, Ford, Mercury and Chrysler, where a 5W-20 motor oil is recommended. Mobil 1 0W-20 not only meets the requirements of manufacturers recommending 5W-20, but it also provides superior low-temperature protection and the exceptional performance of a fully synthetic motor oil."

i misspoke, and saw that amsoil does indeed have a 5w-20, but their 0w-20 has much better test results and longer drain intervals. just trying to pamper my wifes car, since its a commuter car and the type of oil it gets is probably the only "modification" its ever going to see!! i am in NO way trying to peddle brands, i apologize if it sounded that way...

--B

[PetersRedYaris]

...i misspoke, and saw that amsoil does indeed have a 5w-20...

Ok, I was under the impression that AMSoil did not come in a 5w-20. Also, for those looking to drop to the 5w-20 weight but don't use synthetic, Mobil makes a conventional 5w-20 oil called Clean 5000. I'm sure there are other brands as well.

[ROCKLAND TOYOTA]

Found a list of TSB for the Yaris... I just can't look at them...

Unless someone has an ALLDATA login?

TSB Number & Issue Date TSB Title
EL002-07 JAN 07 Charging System - Charge Warning Lamp ON
EL001-07 JAN 07 Electrical - Multiple Warning Lamps/Can't Shift A/T
PA001-07 JAN 07 Body - Replacement Bumper Cover Refinishing
BO023R-06 DEC 06 Restraints - Seat Belt Extenders
PG001R-06 NOV 06 Electrical - Battery Maintenance and Testing
PA002-06 NOV 06 Paint - Stains Under Rapgard (R)
SU007-06 OCT 06 Suspension - Shock Absorber Replacement Criteria
NV009-06 SEP 06 Body - Upper/Lower Windshield Ticking Noise
TC013-06 SEP 06 A/T - Reman Transmission Serial Number Locations
TC012-06 SEP 06 A/T - Serial Number Locations
EG035R-06 AUG 06 Exhaust System - Excessive Sulfur Odor
BO011-06 JUL 06 Interior - Park Brake Lever Boot Catches on Console
NV004-06 MAY 06 Interior - Front Seat Squeak Noise
BO017R-03 APR 06 Body - Interior Trim Panels/Garnish Loose
ST005R-01 APR 06 Steering - Vehicle Pulls To One Side Manual Supplement

:evil:
MOST OF THOSE DO NOT APPLY TO US. but there are a few that does. namely a wiper cowl and nozzle replacement for those of us that feel it doesn't squrit fluid correctly.....:wink:

[Astroman]

I know a mechanic who has alldata. Perhaps I could get some info on the yaris this weekend? Anyone interested?

[sambo42xa]

:confused:

[jlift]

Just ordered one gallon plus two quarts and an oil filter. Amsoil 0-20 100% synthetic and amsoil oil filter for the Yaris. This weight oil is a new product for them (amsoil.com) . ABout $25 a gallon and $6.25 a quart and $14 for the filter. Currently running Castrol full synthetic (not really 100% synthetic, though) Also ordered the Fujimoto drain valve. Will change all at 5,000 miles. Car only has <2,000 now.:thumbup:

[spockmay]

Howdy, I just bought a 2010 Yaris and the owner's manual says to use 5W-30. As the TSB was 3 years ago now, I'd have thought that they'd update the owner's guide. Should we be using the 5W-30 or 5W-20?

[AlexNet0]

If you're manual states 5w-30 and it has a newer publication date than the TSB, then you should follow your manual.

[mikenacarato]

it doesnt seem like people here understand that the 1nzfe motor is NOT on the 0w20 list...it is on the 5w20 list. so from what i take on this tsb it is NOT ok to use 0w20 in the yaris.

[newhavenpatriot]

Hey all,

I don't post here regularly, but I wanted to share an email communication I had with a Toyota Customer Service representative regarding the EG018-06 bulletin. Below are both the email I sent and the email I received back. Looks like it is A-OK to use 5W-20 in the Yaris.


Subject
Toyota Service Bulletin EG018-06

Customer (Joshua Smith) 10/16/2009 08:42 PM

Greetings,

I have a question regarding the correct oil type to use in a 2007 Yaris Hatchback. Unless I'm mistaken, my car has a 1NZ-FE engine, which is listed in the Toyota Service Bulletin EG018-06 as an engine that can use 5W-20 oil. My oil cap and manual both say 5W-30 is recommended, but in the service bulletin, Toyota says that 5W-20 may be used -- and a direct quote from the service bulletin states the following: "This oil is superior in terms of fuel economy, engine protection, and cold starting performance." Please let me know if 5W-20 is safe to use, and if it is not, I'd like to know why. I'd prefer to use 5W-20 for the better fuel economy and cold weather starting performance, as my car sometimes hesitates to turn on when it's very cold out.

There are a lot of people who have discussed/debated the EG018-06 issue on online message boards and none of us can come up with a solid answer. I'd like to get an official response from Toyota and put this to rest. Please also include a list of which specific Yaris models/years (broken down by VIN# range or some similar method) this covers so I can give some people a definitive answer for their Yarises. Thanks very much in advance for your time and effort.

Regards,
Joshua Smith



Response (RTou) 10/22/2009 08:00 AM

Dear Mr. Smith,

Thank you for contacting Toyota Motor Sales.

We appreciate the opportunity to respond to your inquiry.

Toyota recommends the use of ILSAC multigrade, 5W-30 Toyota Genuine Motor Oil or equivalent for the 2007 Yaris. Toyota also recommends, due to its superiority in terms of fuel efficiency, engine protection, and cold starting performance, the use ILSAC GF-4 SAE 5W-20 engine oil for the 2007 Yaris (no specified VIN range).

Thank you again for contacting Toyota.

If we can answer any further questions, please feel free to http://www.toyota.com/help/contactus.html.

Renee Toussaint
Toyota Customer Experience

[bronsin]

How long until people feel the need for 0W-0 oil? or even, -5w-0 oil?

[R2D2]

Newhavenpatriot,

Bless you for taking the time to post this and enlighten us! I contacted Toyota about the same via phone (as well as my dealer) and they had no idea what I was talking about. This is what I always felt was intended by the bulletin, but up until now have had no proof. I made the decision to use 20 wt anyway, but it's nice to know it's ok! Thanks again!

R2

[R2D2]

How long until people feel the need for 0W-0 oil? or even, -5w-0 oil?

It won't end at 20wt, of that I am certain. I'm quite sure 0W-10 would work well in a lot of current engines out there-but it's not recommended or even obtainable very easily. Lubrication technology is evolving quickly right now-nano technology and biobased products to name a couple-and making thinner oils possible that increase efficiency and lower wear.

Your post above highlights the fact the SAE method of classifying oil viscosity is rediculous! It is antiquated and confusing to most-time for a revamp in my opinion. But yes thinner oils are coming!

R2

[1stToyota]

Well, when they get here I think that'll be the day I opt for a German sedan w/ a nice turbo diesel that won't want oil the consistency of kerosene in their expensive motor. :laugh:

[craigq]

I'm quite sure 0W-10 would work well in a lot of current engines out there-but it's not recommended or even obtainable very easily.
R2

Get a hold of a Redline dealer :wink:
Redline 0W10 oil (http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=12&pcid=1)

Disclaimer: it's not recommended by Toyota, will void warranty, meant for racing, yadda yadda yadda... :rolleyes: :biggrin:

[R2D2]

I just found out about the Redline 0W-10 the other day-Royal Purple makes some too. Last I found it though it was like $14 a quart shipped. How much does the Redline go for? Thanks!

R2

[craigq]

Hey R2. It goes for 12.95 a quart on their website before shipping. Interesting oil, not sure about engine longevity as it's application seems to be for racing engines :iono: It's possible one day 10 weights will be specified...

[R2D2]

Thanks Craig! When 0W-10 goes mainstream the price will come down :)

1st,
Where's the love-thin is in! When the 20's went mainstream circa 2k many (including myself) cried foul. How dare they sacrifice longevity to help CAFE scores?! Guess what-they worked great!

The Euros are lagging a little behind but are heading in this direction also. The TDI is running 5W-30 now!

Here's a little light reading about viscosity
: http://yarisworld.com/forums/showpost.php?p=363921&post=7


Check out Dr Haas Lambo UOA on BITOG with 0W-20 and G Allen's 4.0 Jeep on 0W-10!

[1stToyota]

R2D2,
Because I think we're just more worried about fuel economy and less worried about longevity. Most of the European oil recommendations that I come across are more heavily swayed by ambient temperatures.

I was hoping you had it in mind to do a UOA on your 5w20, first, before you switched to 0w20 to see how they compared. I'm not yet convinced that thin is in when thicker is still being listed as the oil to use in service manuals, owner's manuals and the oil cap, and the thinner oil listed on a 3 year old TSB is still left more as the afterthought.

Just for grins I'll probably not do my 2nd UOA on the Pennzoil YB 5w30, I'll probably test PP 5w20 against PP 5w30, w/o use of the filtermag, of course...still won't trust 0w20 as it's still not listed as suitable oil to use for our Yaris in any service manual, owner's manual or TSB, yet.

EDIT: Or better yet, I'd test my PP 5w30 against a 0w30, if you or somebody else could recommend a really good synthetic 0w30 to use...

Looks like it'll be Mobil 1 0w30 vs. Pennzoil Platinum 5w30
With winter coming soon looks like my first UOA will be the 0w30 :)

[R2D2]

1st,

I'm not sampling the 5W-20 because it will only have 2k on it when I drain it (car will only have 5k total). I did changes at 1k, 3k and will put the RLI in at 5k. I wanted to get through most of the break-in period before a 5k run of the RLI 0W-20 during the harshest operational period of my year. The analysis will be by Terry Dyson and he's the best in the biz so he will know if it isn't optimal. Terry seeks perfection and if I can get better results with another visc or product he will let me know.

I had him do a read on my wife's Rogue and he will leave no automotive stone unturned to get you the best results for your application-and most would have been thrilled with the results I was already getting.

So I'm with you on the longevity issue-I just think people sometimes give oil thickness too much credit and not enough to flow rate. But, that's why I'm hiring Terry-he will take all the guess work out of it.

As far as recommending a 0W-30 they tend to be expensive and a little harder to come by. Mobil 1 is the cheapest, easiest to come by ($22 for 5 qts at WM)-I've not been a Mobil 1 fan for the last several years but it has done very well in the few Yaris/M1 UOAs that I've seen. My choices would be RLI, Redline, Amsoil SSO and GC (can be found at Autozone stores for about $7 a qt last I checked). Only the M1 and GC are API certified though, if that matters to you.

The Platinum you mentioned is an excellent oil at a fantastic price-either the 5W-30 or the 5W-20 would probably take most as far as they cared to drive their Yaris, in reality. I've recommended it often to people who want a solid, locally available oil without breaking the bank. Based on the Yarii oil analysis reports I have seen (admittedly mostly 30 wts) they tend to be fairly easy on their oil and non-fussy to boot. I'd be very interested in your results which ever oils you decide to test. What lab do you use?

Stay tuned-but I'm going to need at least 6 months to get 5k on this RLI run.

R2

[1stToyota]

I don't know why I was thinking your Yaris was about out of warranty :bonk:

I guess I just assumed it was nearly out of warranty and you decided it was time to switch to 0w20

API is kinda important to me, and AutoZone had the Mobil 1 0w-30 for $6.95, so I bought 4

Blackstone labs will be doing both of my UOAs

If Mobil 1 tests out better than the PP 5w-30 I'll shop for it at WalMart next time.

[R2D2]

The Blackstone folks are great-exceptional customer service. They helped me out with a special need testing situation a while back on a HD rear axle.

My hunch is the M1 will do quite well in this app. Is it the new green cap AFE?

[1stToyota]

The Blackstone folks are great-exceptional customer service. They helped me out with a special need testing situation a while back on a HD rear axle.

My hunch is the M1 will do quite well in this app. Is it the new green cap AFE?

Yes, Napa had the old SL 0w-30, but AutoZone had the fancy green cap SM 0w-30

I'm hoping the M1 does well, if not I'll stick with the $3.95 PP :)

[TheSilkySmooth]

I just had to dump Castrol 5w30 syntec BC the engine was so noisy that i though it was gonna blow. I have Rotella T 10w30 CJ4 in there now, and this is the BEST overall conventional oil ive used in the past 5 years - actually the only satisfactory one. Alot of our engines have different needs and mine will absolutely not tolerate light grade oil. Toyota recommends heavier oil (5w40, 10w40 for severe service, high speed driving and towing) in my owners manual not lighter. Since I drive hard, I will need the heavier oil to survive. I dont like engines that clak and tick and clang and dont rev hard to redline. With the thicker oil they are dead quiet and smooth and will have less crankcase fuel dilution - important with E10 "gasohol" usage. Just my dos centavos
P.S: Why does the TSB say in the Red box at the beginning of the TSB to "Use the oil grade on your fill cap" then say somewhere else you can use something else - If I had a warranty issue on 20wt oil - I would be afraid they'd deny due to wrong weight. Untill they send ME a supplement to my owners manual I would never run 20wt - the TSB are not for consumer/customer dissemination, only for dealer use.

[Lewis]

I wonder what the mpg differential is using the 5-20 versus the 5-30? Any one know?

[newhavenpatriot]

Newhavenpatriot,

Bless you for taking the time to post this and enlighten us! I contacted Toyota about the same via phone (as well as my dealer) and they had no idea what I was talking about. This is what I always felt was intended by the bulletin, but up until now have had no proof. I made the decision to use 20 wt anyway, but it's nice to know it's ok! Thanks again!

R2

Any time, R2. I had just searched about this issue a couple weeks ago, and I couldn't find a definitive answer. Though, I did find this thread, which prompted me to go right to the source and get an answer. Once I got an official statement from Toyota, I felt compelled to post back here where I had found the info regarding the TSB in the first place. BTW, I usually hang out on the forums at ecomodder.com with the same name, since it's more geared towards fuel efficiency and such. That's why I don't really post here.. I'm mainly a scavenger of information on this board. :redface:

[R2D2]

Ecomodder is a cool place-I find myself lurking there quite often!

R2

[R2D2]

Silky,

With all due respect if Dr AE Haas can run 20 wts in an Enzo and a Lamborghini I think a stock Yaris will do fine on it if it's a quality oil formulation. I bet the Enzo and Lambo don't mention 0W-20 or 0W-30 in there manuals either. :)
I thought you were initially pleased with the Syntec? I believe you had "padded" it with some 10W-40, correct? The noise you keep referring to-when is it occuring? My Yaris is a little noisy when "cold" but is very quiet when fully warmed up and the oil is at it's "thinnest". I have always used 20 wt so far and have heard rumors the factory fill was a 20 also (I have no proof for this yet). Engine loves to rev but rarely gets to as I putt around and gawk at my ecometer!

The Rotella is a nice oil but would make me uneasy during a NH winter! Sure, I think it will start fine but it may (rather loudly) protest. Hope it works out for you better than the Syntec-let us know!
R2

[1stToyota]

Silky,

With all due respect if Dr AE Haas can run 20 wts in an Enzo and a Lamborghini I think a stock Yaris will do fine on it if it's a quality oil formulation. I bet the Enzo and Lambo don't mention 0W-20 or 0W-30 in there manuals either. :)
I thought you were initially pleased with the Syntec? I believe you had "padded" it with some 10W-40, correct? The noise you keep referring to-when is it occuring? My Yaris is a little noisy when "cold" but is very quiet when fully warmed up and the oil is at it's "thinnest". I have always used 20 wt so far and have heard rumors the factory fill was a 20 also (I have no proof for this yet). Engine loves to rev but rarely gets to as I putt around and gawk at my ecometer!

The Rotella is a nice oil but would make me uneasy during a NH winter! Sure, I think it will start fine but it may (rather loudly) protest. Hope it works out for you better than the Syntec-let us know!
R2

Mine's just the opposite; quiet at start up, but just a little noisy off idle in 1st gear when warm.

[R2D2]

1st,

You got me thinking about sampling the 5W-20 I've currently got in the car. It will only have about 2k on it but I still think it would be interesting to see. I've got a Schaeffer sample kit here (no TBN but its only 2k). I think I will sample it just as a starting point but honestly even if it doesn't look great I won't be concerned because the engine is so young. Should happen early next week.

R2

[TheSilkySmooth]

Silky,

With all due respect if Dr AE Haas can run 20 wts in an Enzo and a Lamborghini I think a stock Yaris will do fine on it if it's a quality oil formulation. I bet the Enzo and Lambo don't mention 0W-20 or 0W-30 in there manuals either. :)
I thought you were initially pleased with the Syntec? I believe you had "padded" it with some 10W-40, correct? The noise you keep referring to-when is it occuring? Hope it works out for you better than the Syntec-let us know!
R2 AFA oil weight - I think you have to look at each engine individually, though of course and engine "family" would be the larger set. My engine continues to have intermittent cold or hot excessive noise (bearing/valvetrain/t-chain) so I'm starting to wonder if I should drop the pan and see if ther is something around the pickup. The Fuel quality here is atrocious and I have gotten a tank with (assumed) way over 10% ethanol or somehow misformulated, given the car barely ran after the fill (87oct @ Mobil). I'm not sure if this poor fuel is also contributing to my oil woes. I am also dealing with an Exhaust backpressure issue whereas after tooling around for tens of miles, if I operate the car at WOT or near WOT merging on the interstste, I'm getting exhaust into the cabin (sulfur dioxide smell). I am currently pursuing through Toyota Customer Care and the dealer having the exhaust replaced with an upgraded hi-flow front pipe which was available to 3 dr owners in MY '06 and '07 throuh a TSB you can view elsewhere on this forum. So adding all these factors in-toto appear to be killing just about ANY oil in my car. I hope the engine survives till I get these issues resolved - it's sounding worse every day. I have a jug of 0w-30 AFE on deck for sub 20 deg winter weather.

[R2D2]

1st,

I have the report back on the last (short!) 5W-20 fill from the Yaris.

2009 Yaris 1.5 L

Oil was Schaeffer's 7000 5W-20 with 1871 miles on it and 4974 on the car total at time of sample. Analysis by Schaeffer.

Copper - 3

Iron. - 7

Cromium- 0

Alum. - 7

Lead. - 0

Moly. - 329

Phos. - 963

Zinc. - 1115

Magnes. - 294

Calcium. - 2095

Sodium. - 8

Potass. - 3

Silicon. - 20

Antifreeze, water, fuel all nil.

Visc @ 100C. 8.07 (20 wt)

Oxidation % allowed 0

Nitration % allowed. 6

Looks good for such a young engine IMO. The next sample will be much more informative but we at least know nothing disastrous is going on.

R2

[craigq]

R2, are you going to post this on BITOG or can I?

[R2D2]

Craig,

Yeah I'll post soon. I'll probably get hammered for changing it so soon but I like to get the break in metals out of there so I usually do several short fills early on.

I also forgot to mention this was a 3.5 qt fill with 7 oz of LC20 at time oil was installed + 2 oz at the 1k mark.

Just wanted a peek at what was going on after 1st Toyota got me thinking about it.

[SilverGlow]

If you are going for longevity for your engine, if you want it to last an absolute long time, then use 0w-20. Using 0w-20 will allow the engine to last longer then if you ran heavier oil.

This is because the lighter oil protects better during the time the engine wears the most: First 5-10 minutes of running after the first start in the morning.

At operational temperatures, there is a teeny tiny insignificant difference in engine wear between 20 and 30 and 40.

What kills engines is NOT running them at 212F on the freeway...what kills them is running the engines cold because cold means 10w-30 runs thicker then 0w-20 which means it circulates to the top and around all the internal engine parts SLOWER then 0w-20, and means more wear during the time engines wear the fastest: first 5-10 minutes of running for the day.

If you really know oil, understand how it works, you will see this is true. If you don't understand, you will have this dillusion that thicker protects better.

The only time you want to run the really thick stuff (40 weight for example) is if you are running hard, fast (racing or uphill under termendous load), and for long periods of time, in very hot weather. But for most of us, this is the exception and not the rule.

If you want your engine to last it's absolute longest, go 20 weight over 30 or heavier.

[SilverGlow]

I wonder what the mpg differential is using the 5-20 versus the 5-30? Any one know?

1% to 2%....over 100,000 miles this adds up to over $100 savings in fuel...but more importantly, using 0w-20 means the engine will last longer over heavier oil, and in most conditions. See my post above for more reason on this.

[R2D2]

Silverglow,

I very much agree with your opinion of lighter weight oils-after this sample I drained the oil and refilled with RLI 0W-20.

R2

[TheSilkySmooth]

If you are going for longevity for your engine, if you want it to last an absolute long time, then use 0w-20. Using 0w-20 will allow the engine to last longer then if you ran heavier oil.

This is because the lighter oil protects better during the time the engine wears the most: First 5-10 minutes of running after the first start in the morning.

At operational temperatures, there is a teeny tiny insignificant difference in engine wear between 20 and 30 and 40.

What kills engines is NOT running them at 212F on the freeway...what kills them is running the engines cold because cold means 10w-30 runs thicker then 0w-20 which means it circulates to the top and around all the internal engine parts SLOWER then 0w-20, and means more wear during the time engines wear the fastest: first 5-10 minutes of running for the day.

If you really know oil, understand how it works, you will see this is true. If you don't understand, you will have this dillusion that thicker protects better.

The only time you want to run the really thick stuff (40 weight for example) is if you are running hard, fast (racing or uphill under termendous load), and for long periods of time, in very hot weather. But for most of us, this is the exception and not the rule.

If you want your engine to last it's absolute longest, go 20 weight over 30 or heavier. Have any studies to back this up? Just read on BTIOG that Engine wear is 5-7X higher during acceleration, then levels off. 5w-20 IS more stable than 5w-30 - a terrible multigrade. If the engine can run 5w-20 - run it. Fords seem to work well on 20wt. I wouldnt run it if there is excessive noise present on a warm motor - my 1nzfe is very noisey on a thin 5w-30 like syntec - so I am afraid of the 5w-20. Plus my fill cap says 5w-30 SL. Per the TSB, 5w-30 is the weight you HAVE to use.
-
Aside: You need lube to get up in the ring pack and stay on the wear areas. This is NOT PAO group iv synthetic, a terrible lubricant but with good cold flow properties. So oil base stock magic makes a diff too. Conventional is better and most 20wt-er's swear by Grp II+ motorcraft SS.

[SilverGlow]

Have any studies to back this up? Just read on BTIOG that Engine wear is 5-7X higher during acceleration, then levels off. 5w-20 IS more stable than 5w-30 - a terrible multigrade. If the engine can run 5w-20 - run it. Fords seem to work well on 20wt. I wouldnt run it if there is excessive noise present on a warm motor - my 1nzfe is very noisey on a thin 5w-30 like syntec - so I am afraid of the 5w-20. Plus my fill cap says 5w-30 SL. Per the TSB, 5w-30 is the weight you HAVE to use.
-
Aside: You need lube to get up in the ring pack and stay on the wear areas. This is NOT PAO group iv synthetic, a terrible lubricant but with good cold flow properties. So oil base stock magic makes a diff too. Conventional is better and most 20wt-er's swear by Grp II+ motorcraft SS.

My Yaris engine sounds the same no matter if I use 0w-20, or 5w-20, or 5w-30. The only sound difference I have found were between different brand of oil filter.

Synthetic oil is better then any and all conventional because synthetic is less prone to (1) shearing, and (2) oxidation. For longevity purposes, I'd prefer synthetic....however, if one only uses conventional, this engine will still last a heck of a long time...also, I don't know of a conventional oil that provides 0w weight.

[TheSilkySmooth]

Someone at BITOG just spectrochemically analysed the 0w-20 Toyota oil, and its Japanese import by IDEMITSU and its prob the best 20wt out there. Japanese love moly and it has TONS of moly. Same is tru with the Honda OEM oil. I hear its under 5 bucks a litre too and a full real synthetic, unlike syntec and synpower and PP which are fake synthetic - just severly processed Dino oil. So hit the dealer and give it a try.

[1stToyota]

1st,

I have the report back on the last (short!) 5W-20 fill from the Yaris.

2009 Yaris 1.5 L

Oil was Schaeffer's 7000 5W-20 with 1871 miles on it and 4974 on the car total at time of sample. Analysis by Schaeffer.

Copper - 3

Iron. - 7

Cromium- 0

Alum. - 7

Lead. - 0

Moly. - 329

Phos. - 963

Zinc. - 1115

Magnes. - 294

Calcium. - 2095

Sodium. - 8

Potass. - 3

Silicon. - 20

Antifreeze, water, fuel all nil.

Visc @ 100C. 8.07 (20 wt)

Oxidation % allowed 0

Nitration % allowed. 6

Looks good for such a young engine IMO. The next sample will be much more informative but we at least know nothing disastrous is going on.

R2

WIX Oil Analysis Report for friend's Scion xD...still will be awhile before I get around to testing the M1 0w-30 in my Yaris, then I'll do another UOA using PP 5w-30 next summer.

OIL BRAND: Valvoline
OIL TYPE: Durablend 5w20
SAMPLE DATE: 08/20/2009
TIME ON OIL: 4,930 MILES
VEHICLE MILEAGE: 15,104

SPECTROCHEMICAL ANALYSIS (ppm)

SPECTROCHEMICAL ANALYSIS (ppm)

12 - IRON
0 - CHROMIUM
0 - LEAD
3 - COPPER
0 - TIN
2 - ALUMINUM
0 - NICKEL
0 - SILVER
13 - SILICON
13 - BORON
140 - SODIUM
10 - MAGNESIUM
2441 - CALCIUM
0 - BARIUM
789 - PHOSPHORUS
861 - ZINC
7 - MOLYBDENUM
0 - TITANIUM
0 - VANADIUM
0 - POTASSIUM

PHYSICAL PROPERTIES

<1 - FUEL (% VOL)
N/A - VIS @ 40 C cSt
8.52 - VIS @ 100 C cSt
0 - WATER (% VOL)
N/A - SOOT/SOLIDS (% WT)
NO - COOLANT

[sbergman27]

I've been following topics relating to 5w20 oils for a while with regards to various makes and models. The most enlightening post I have seen was made by an (I believe Ford) engineer involved in oil testing. He went so far as to say that while 5w20's protection was considered acceptable, and resulted in a 1% or so increase in MPG, which is good for the manufacturer's CAFE, that actual wear was significantly greater for 5w20 than for 5w30. And that he, personally, did not use 5w20 for that reason.

I use 5w30 for the same reasons.

P.S. I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned in this thread, but all the TSB is saying is that Toyota is (retroactively) switching to GF4 oils from GF3. Read the second red box on the TSB carefully. It clearly states that viscosity requirements vary by model, and that you should use the viscosity stated on the filler cap. All the 5w20/0w20 stuff is about what they are doing with new engines.

[TheSilkySmooth]

I have been saying this for years. If 20wt was OK, then the newer yaris would be spec'd for it and they are not. Thats not saying 5w-30 GF4 is a good oil. I would be hunting for a 10w-30 SJ or SL outdoor equipment oil for high stress applications. John Deere, Briggs and Stratton and mTD all make good HD oils - dont tlet the lawnmower/tractor bother you - these engine are air cooled usually have NO oil pump or filter and run at wide open throttle mid-high load. 4-stroke marine I/O engine oils are stout too.

[1stToyota]

I have been saying this for years. If 20wt was OK, then the newer yaris would be spec'd for it and they are not. Thats not saying 5w-30 GF4 is a good oil. I would be hunting for a 10w-30 SJ or SL outdoor equipment oil for high stress applications. John Deere, Briggs and Stratton and mTD all make good HD oils - dont tlet the lawnmower/tractor bother you - these engine are air cooled usually have NO oil pump or filter and run at wide open throttle mid-high load. 4-stroke marine I/O engine oils are stout too.

It'd be neat to see a UOA on a modern car like ours that ran something like B&S's synthetic oil for one of its OCIs. I know they're designed for higher temps.

[TheSilkySmooth]

Yeah - I like to do that but the cost is high since I'm out of work. Plus I'd need a trend of over 2 OCI. So that would be 3 UOA. I'll run the stuff and see if it runs smooth, revs hard and quiet to redline, and show reasonable fuel mileage - thats good enough for me. I think these oil just have the old higher level of ZDDP, no friction mods, and higher Ca detergent. OTW they are the same as PCMO's. Lowes had B&S syn reasonably cheap ( under 6 a quart) before winter - now its all bought up. Surprised me

[sbergman27]

...dont tlet the lawnmower/tractor bother you...
Actually, *do* let the lawnmower/tractor bother you. It's a completely different application. The requirements for these engines are completely different than for automotive applications. And you can't view oils along a one dimensional metric of "good" and "bad". That's far too simplistic. Oils are formulated for the specific application they are intended for. An oil may be (and probably is) superlative for your tractor but totally inappropriate for your car, and vice versa. (Although I should note that Scamsoil's marketing department *does* deceptively use *gear oil* metrics like the "four ball" test to market their snake oil products.)

On the topic of 10w30 vs 5w30... A 5w30 oil at 0F is thicker than a straight 30 wt at operating temperature. In fact, probably thicker than is optimal. All 10w30 is going to do is increase the starter load a bit.

Use what the manufacturer advises instead of doing all this armchair second guessing.

A possible exception to that, which may have some slight advantages, might be substituting a 0w30 for 5w30, if the (reputable) oil manufacturer rates it to be a suitable replacement for 5w30.

[1stToyota]

Actually, *do* let the lawnmower/tractor bother you. It's a completely different application. The requirements for these engines are completely different than for automotive applications. And you can't view oils along a one dimensional metric of "good" and "bad". That's far too simplistic. Oils are formulated for the specific application they are intended for. An oil may be (and probably is) superlative for your tractor but totally inappropriate for your car, and vice versa. (Although I should note that Scamsoil's marketing department *does* deceptively use *gear oil* metrics like the "four ball" test to market their snake oil products.)

On the topic of 10w30 vs 5w30... A 5w30 oil at 0F is thicker than a straight 30 wt at operating temperature. In fact, probably thicker than is optimal. All 10w30 is going to do is increase the starter load a bit.

Use what the manufacturer advises instead of doing all this armchair second guessing.

A possible exception to that, which may have some slight advantages, might be substituting a 0w30 for 5w30, if the (reputable) oil manufacturer rates it to be a suitable replacement for 5w30.

That's what I did at my last service, substituted Mobil 1 0w30 for the PP 5w30 that I usually use...bottle claims to exceed 5w30/10w30 requirements so I thought I'd give it a try.

[TheSilkySmooth]

Actually, *do* let the lawnmower/tractor bother you. It's a completely different application. - MTD (Olympic) is API SJ rated - no problem - unless the "proper" % of EP agents bother you.

On the topic of 10w30 vs 5w30... A 5w30 oil at 0F is thicker than a straight 30 wt at operating temperature. In fact, probably thicker than is optimal. - All oils are thicker when cold than at op temp. An oil with a improved VI may provide small gains in FE during warmup but are minimal at best.

Use what the manufacturer advises instead of doing all this armchair second guessing. - I will not sacrifice EP wear protection in the false hope of having my cat converter last 300K miles with "green" ILSAC gf4 spec oils.

A possible exception to that, which may have some slight advantages, might be substituting a 0w30 for 5w30, if the (reputable) oil manufacturer rates it to be a suitable replacement for 5w30. - Unless operating in the arctic circle, I find PAO base fluid show much higher engine wear and noise due to these fluids poor lubricity v. group I/II base fluids. I know I'm runnning M1 AFE 0w-30 now and I am not convinced of any benefit - my fuel mileage is much worse (-5mpg) on a 5 tank average than last winter's mean running a 5w-30 pennzoil conventional What else?

[sbergman27]

What else?

Yes, all multivis oils are thicker at cold temps than at operating temperature. I mentioned the fact because it is widely misunderstood, and people who do that tend to recommend 10wX oils or straight weights.

I would not expect to be able to measure the difference between AFE 0w30 and a 5w30 without a lot of very systematic testing. I seriously doubt that your 5 mpg difference has anything at all to do with the oil.

Engines don't see EP. They see sliding friction under very high shear conditions. Lot's and lots of it. What, exactly, do you think that extra EP additives are buying you? And what are the down sides, I wonder?

You are, of course, free to second guess the engineers as much as you please. Especially if you are out of warranty. But you do it at your own peril. And I'd be particularly nervous going further and telling *other* people to use it.

That said, if you are looking for an impressive oil that meets a range of European (and particularly German) high performance standards which almost no other does, and has an HTHS of 3.7... look to Mobil 1 0w40. If I were going to stray from the spec'd 5w30, that's what I would use.

http://tinyurl.com/39b6cg

BTW, why don't you care about your (and other people's) catalytic converter?

-Steve

[Hershey]

how about PENNZOIL 5w-30 Utra or EURO synthetic ( ACEA A3/B3/B4 ) in a 5w-30 for the YARIS ? Here's the Technical Data Sheet for the EURO Ultra www.pennzoil.com/assets/PZL_ULTRA_EURO_L_5W30_01_10.pdf and for the ULTRA ( North America ) , www.pennzoil.com/assets/PENNZOIL_ULTRA_Full_Synthetic_PDS.pdf . Here's full page for the ULTRA , www.pennzoil.com/#/motor-oil/pennzoil-ultra .

[sbergman27]

how about PENNZOIL 5w-30 Utra or EURO synthetic...
The Euro product looks pretty impressive. Particularly for a 5w30. I didn't know a 5w30 with a 3.68 HTHS existed.

The concern by European high performance manufacturers is with the relatively low HTHS of gf-4 oils with regards to the valve train. Specifically, cam and lifter wear. They feel that 3.5 is required for best protection. Unfortunately, HTHS is also the primary number that determines an oil's fuel efficiency characteristics. And lower is better there.

However, the whole issue of valve train wear and HTHS is probably not germane to our cars. Certainly, my 1988 Chevy Sprint Metro 1.0L 3-cyl with 345,000 miles on the odometer still shows minimal cam wear. And it has always used 0w30 or 5w30 Mobil 1, with HTHS of between 2.99 and 3.1.

[Hershey]

thanks . Very informative . Therefore the EURO would be fine . Maybe overkill :biggrin: .

[TheSilkySmooth]

Yes, all multivis oils are thicker at cold temps than at operating temperature. I mentioned the fact because it is widely misunderstood, and people who do that tend to recommend 10wX oils or straight weights.

I would not expect to be able to measure the difference between AFE 0w30 and a 5w30 without a lot of very systematic testing. I seriously doubt that your 5 mpg difference has anything at all to do with the oil. - Agreed. I have a failing converter and it's attendant high backpressue, also the winter fuel seems worse than last season - though my converter may be confounding diagnosis.

Engines don't see EP. They see sliding friction under very high shear conditions. Lot's and lots of it. What, exactly, do you think that extra EP additives are buying you? And what are the down sides, I wonder? - - I am assuming periodic EP due to piston cocking at stroke ends - though the 1NZ has a designed wrist pin centreline offset to minimise this. Cam loads can get high, but only during valve float caused by oil ash buildup on thier heads and periodic sticking due to infrequent high RPM excursions. Maybe I do want a higher HTHS after all - or maybe just a bit more viscosity. When using oils with > 0.1% EP; My engine uses little oil so I dont worry about converter loading with metal thiophosphates.

You are, of course, free to second guess the engineers as much as you please. Especially if you are out of warranty. But you do it at your own peril. And I'd be particularly nervous going further and telling *other* people to use it. - I would imagine Engineers would prefer no exhaust aftertreatment worries, and more safety margin from the energy conserving lubricant we use. The EP and HTHS was not reduced in North America to benefit the engines or its longevity.

That said, if you are looking for an impressive oil that meets a range of European (and particularly German) high performance standards which almost no other does, and has an HTHS of 3.7... look to Mobil 1 0w40. If I were going to stray from the spec'd 5w30, that's what I would use. - Agreed its EXxon-Mobils' best effort as is The M1 racing 4T superbike oil, but I am no fan of PAO bases where they have no pronounced benefit. I doubt the VVTi hydraulics would allow enough cam advance at lower RPMs with the higher viscosity of a light 40wt - it's overly sensitive and likes an 10-11 cst oil to be in its sweet spot.

http://tinyurl.com/39b6cg

BTW, why don't you care about your (and other people's) catalytic converter? - I care about my converter - but mine usually fail due to suspect incorrect mixture and high heat loading brought on by misformulated E10 fuels - not a pinch of dithiophosphate here or there.

-Steve Steve , I really appreciate you reasoning:respekt:

[TheSilkySmooth]

I have seen Motul 5w-30 with a BMW LL-01 spec. I think its marketed as X-MAX currently.

[sbergman27]

Yeah, I had wondered about the vvt-i wrt viscosity. It's one of those little gotcha's that is easy to overlook, and an example of why I'm somewhat disinclined to stray very far from the recommendations. You just never know what esoteric details got discussed during the engine design meetings that you were not invited to. Engines (and oils) have gotten so complicated since when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s and we all just dumped 10w40 into our engines and swore by whichever brand we'd always used. :laugh:

Though I've tried to keep up through reading, the Yaris is my first foray into current technology on a hands-on basis. I tend to keep my cars for a very long time. My other cars are two 1968 Cadillac Fleetwood Broughams, which I grew up with, and my trusty 1988 Chevy Sprint Metro (really a Suzuki) which is about to turn over 350,000 miles. The Sprint is actually carbureted. Though it *is* an electronic feedback carb, so it has many of the advantages of FI. (Including DFCO, BTW.) But it doesn't support the fun toys like the Scangauge II.

-Steve

[sbergman27]

BTW, does anyone happen to know where one can actually *purchase* the Pennzoil Euro Ultra 5w30 product in the US. I'm in Oklahoma City and am having problems locating any.

[Hershey]

WAL-MART may have it . When I called PENNZOIL about the ULTRA he said it was at WAL-MART in TEXAS . So , you being in that region it may be sitting on a shelf . Call them in advance and get directed to AUTOMOTIVE department to see if in stock .

[Hershey]

so you plan on using the 5w-30 EURO Ultra for your YARIS ?

[sbergman27]

Walmart carries the Ultra product. But doesn't seem to carry the Euro Ultra, which is the really interesting one of the two. I dropped by Autozone, where they don't have it either. But noticed a Castrol 0w30 Syntech European formula, which meets BMW LL-01, VW 502 00, and others.

Yes, after considering TheSilkySmooth's comments, and after returning from a long mountainous trip over which the cruise control kept wanting to floor the accelerator climbing hills at 75 MPH on the Interstates (thus downshifting the transmission, and running the RPMs up as high as 5100) I'm not averse to considering a non-GF4, higher HTHS oil.

-Steve Bergman

Thus far, this is the most I've been able to find out about the Castrol European Formula product. It's the 0w30 listed on this sheet. I'm looking for more information now:

http://tinyurl.com/637zyy

[sbergman27]

Well, I queried the Castrol folks and got an interesting response. The HTHS value of their oil is considered to be "proprietary information". (No doubt it relates to national security in some very sensitive way.)

================

Thank you for contacting Castrol North America.

With regard to your request below, please see the Product Data Sheet and
MSDS for our Castrol Syntec 0w-30. Unfortunately information that is not
provided on our data sheets is considered proprietary.
If you require information regarding what oil to use in your vehicle, please
advise the year make and model and we will be happy to assist you with a
product recommendation.

Castrol Consumer Relations
1-800-462-0835

-----Original Message-----
What is the HTHS rating of the Castrol Syntec
European Formula 0w30 product? Its conformance to the ACEA A3 spec means
that it is at least 3.5. But I'm curious what the actual value is.

[TheSilkySmooth]

You may find the 0w-30 a bit too viscous. Over much experimentation the engine seems happiest (power/mileage) with an oil between 10 and 11 cst more to the 10.5and HTHS over 3.0 mPas but somewhat less than 3.5. Now the engine many times will not acheive a 100C sump so the viscosity will be higher in use. I wish I could get a "high mileage" oil and its attendant higher viscosity and HTHS without the seal swell agents they add to the package. After my continuing experiment with HD oils, I do not discount the qualitative effect of high phosphorous in the oil package - it REALLY subjectivly smooths out the engine moreso than any new GF4 formulation using Boron, MolyDTC or Sodium organometallics.

[sbergman27]

At 12.1 cst, it certainly is a thick 30wt. However, I really think that the HTHS number is the more significant wrt fuel economy. Temperatures between the actual working surfaces are going to be hight than sump, and more in line with the HTHS test temperature than the cst temp. I would imagine that the cst is more pertinent to the vvt-i system (which I'm not yet that familiar with). Would you expect to see any problem there at 12.1?

Regarding the HTHS... it really all boils down to whether there are really measurable anti-wear benefits to high HTHS in this class of engine and service. If there are, then trading wear for FE is a bad trade. I say that despite the fact that I care a great deal about FE, because the FE difference is just not large enough to matter. And an earlier engine rebuild represents a substantial consumption of resources, which must be factored into the total environmental impact.

I think it is interesting that in the US, where manufacturers like to run right up to the limit of their allowed CAFE, GF-4 oils are considered a good trade off, whereas in Europe, where the manufacturers leave themselves some CAFE breathing room regarding their US products, they do *not* consider GF-4 to be a good trade off.

-Steve

[R2D2]

Steve,

The only HTHS data I've seen on the Castrol Syntec European Formula 0W-30 (aka German Castrol, or GC) is several years old but I doubt it has changed much-3.45

R2

[sbergman27]

Thanks R2D2. I suspect it's pretty close to that. Of course, it does have to be at least 3.50 to meet the specs it currently does.

Another oil which has come to my attention is M1 ESP Formula 5w30. It an ACEA A3 oil that meets pretty much the same impressive list of specs as the German Castrol. It has the same, thick for a 30, 100C cst of 12.1. And an HTHS of 3.58.

http://tinyurl.com/yczowm6

http://tinyurl.com/y9p3ale

-Steve

[sbergman27]

Well, well. I got an interesting response back from Pennzoil/Shell regarding the availability of Euro Ultra:

=======

Dear Steve,

Thank you for your inquiry.

The Pennzoil Platinum Euro Ultra 5W-30 engine oil (Stock# 5063827) is
only available in a 55 gallon drum. The Pennzoil Platinum Euro-Ultra
Diesel 5W-30 engine oil (stock # 550016921) is available in quarts
as well as a 55 gallon drum. Given the stock numbers any retail auto
parts stores that carry the Pennzoil product line should be able to
order this product. Another alternative would be to contact a
Shell/Pennzoil/Quaker State distributor for these products. The
closest distributor appears to be Windward Petroleum located in
Oklahoma City, phone number 405-236-5334.

Best Regards,
Technical Service - RM

=======

Where in my apartment would the 55 gallon drum go best, I wonder? Next to the sofa? In the kitchen? Maybe in the downstairs bath, in front of the toilet? (I could put the toilet paper on it.) Or perhaps as an entryway table? I wonder what color it is?

-Steve

[Hershey]

here's a V.O.A. of the PENNZOIL ULTRA at BOB IS THE OIL GUY , www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1778710#Post1778710 . Wonder how comparable the 5w-30 would be :iono: .

[sbergman27]

OK. I have a theory about this odd TSB in which they announced intentions which, 4 years later, they never seem to have acted upon. I ran into this interesting UOA on the BITOG site for a 2007 Yaris factory fill at 1100 miles:

http://tinyurl.com/yjpnz4y

Note the 100C cSt value of 7.9

And then refer to this chart and table:

http://tinyurl.com/qqldw

This factory fill was clearly an Xw20 oil.

So my theory is that they want the EPA to test the car with Xw20 oil, to get slightly better numbers. But just doing a factory fill with that, without clearing Xw20 for use by owners is likely not kosher with EPA policies, so they had to OK it somewhere. But... they really would prefer that most warrantied cars use the 5w30 for superior protection. So... they OK'd 5w20 in the least conspicuous place possible, an obscure TSB, while leaving the 5w30 recommendation in the owners manuals and on the filler caps.

Sound reasonable?

-Steve

[1stToyota]

OK. I have a theory about this odd TSB in which they announced intentions which, 4 years later, they never seem to have acted upon. I ran into this interesting UOA on the BITOG site for a 2007 Yaris factory fill at 1100 miles:

http://tinyurl.com/yjpnz4y

Note the 100C cSt value of 7.9

And then refer to this chart and table:

http://tinyurl.com/qqldw

This factory fill was clearly an Xw20 oil.

So my theory is that they want the EPA to test the car with Xw20 oil, to get slightly better numbers. But just doing a factory fill with that, without clearing Xw20 for use by owners is likely not kosher with EPA policies, so they had to OK it somewhere. But... they really would prefer that most warrantied cars use the 5w30 for superior protection. So... they OK'd 5w20 in the least conspicuous place possible, an obscure TSB, while leaving the 5w30 recommendation in the owners manuals and on the filler caps.

Sound reasonable?

-Steve

Sounds reasonable. I've always thought that lighter oils were more about what's good for mpg and less about what's good for the motor.

[Hershey]

glad I've always changed the factory fill at 1,000 > 1,500 miles and then again at around 2,000 > 3,000 miles later , and the rest go for about the 5,000 mile interval using a 5w-30 synthetic for each . Did try Pennzoil PLATINUM 5w-20 for '08 sedan after seeing the approval and the engine seemed a bit noisy . So , dumped it about 2,000 later miles and went back to 5w-30 .

[sbergman27]

Did try Pennzoil PLATINUM 5w-20 for '08 sedan and the engine seemed a bit noisy . So , dumped it about 2,000 later miles and went back to 5w-30 .
BTW, I did run the Castrol 0w30 European Formula, AKA "German Castrol" for 4,000 miles. (I drive a lot, so that was less than 2 weeks, I think.) But... I got to looking into things like its lack of SM certification. It's still on SL. (SM was released in 2004.) It more than meets the engine protection requirements of SM. But not the low SAPS requirement. So it may not be so good for the catalytic converter. Fantastic oil for protecting the engine, it seems. But with a possible trade-off.

I also looked into M1 ESP Formula, a nice A3 5w30 oil which looks great. But... it's unclear as to whether it might have issues with US fuels. The story is that there is a possible problem with its completely different additive formula (replacing ZDDP with something else, etc.) and E10 gasoline. Nothing definite. Just rumor. And I'm always *very* suspicious of rumors about E10 because there is so very much absolute *crap* word-of-mouth disinformation floating around about ethanol. (Don't get me started!) And a fellow on BITOG, who happened to be an engineer, made the very reasonable point that Mobile 1 ESP (Emission System Protection) formula was a product designed under additional constraints, beyond those constraints under which other oils are designed. And that additional restraints usually mean additional compromises. These are things that make you go "Hmmmm...." :-/

M1 0w40 European Formula looks great with its A3 *and* SM certifications... but there are those nebulous rumors floating around about our vvt-i systems being affected by out of spec viscosity oils.

And after much gnashing of brain and teeth, I decided that I'm really not smart enough to second guess the recommendations of the experienced and knowledgeable engineers at Toyota who designed this engine. Am I focusing too much upon one thing and forgetting something else? Am I completely ignorant of some critically important thing? I could check out any of these things that I've mentioned. But what about the things I *don't even know about* yet?

Oh... I'm still suspicious of the whole Xw20 bit. And note that we haven't gotten a "Hear ye! Hear ye!" regarding its use in these engines.

But I'm back to an M1 Xw30 oil with ILSAC GF4 and SM certifications, like a good little boy. And I suspect that's probably the prudent thing to do.

Is dreaming about oil threads a sign of deteriorating mental health, I wonder?

-Steve

[Hershey]

may consider the 5w-20 when it's stamped on the oil cap .

[ibanezjeepguy]

have any of you actually hooked up a manual oil pressure gauge to the block to read during various loads and RPM speeds against one oil vs the other.
simple..... BOTH oils are rated to flow "like" a 5 during cold. its the operating temperature flow rating that changes. if the places the oil has to flow are tighter and/or more narrow passages then the 20 would be able to do that better, resulting it better protection. slightly thicker oil would technically mean more protection against thinning out under heat but is really the shearing forces more people should be concerned about instead of the flow ratings which is all viscosity ratings are really intended for. more people should be concerned with the other specs that manufacturers list on their websites and not necessarily on their products bottles. main difference people notice... fuel economy UP on the lower viscosity oil due to less effort for the oil pump to move around the fluid, and guess what drives the oil pump :w00t:

[1stToyota]

I hear more about increased engine noise, and less about increased fuel economy...and with the info that's being passed around here about the possible oil leak at the head gasket I'll stick with the recommended thicker oil.

[frog13]

may consider the 5w-20 when it's stamped on the oil cap .


AND when they place the info in the manual......they test these vehicles over and over and over.....theres some BS somewhere...use whats in the manual or stamped on the oil cap....if something goes wrong,their responseable:thumbup:

[charlieXX]

How would this fare in all this discussion, I am here in the desert environment hard driving, usual runs are 100kmh-120/140kmh on say 60-70kms a day and it may still be cool now 14-20C but it could shoot up to 35-40C in just a couple of weeks more.

[Hershey]

Just got e-mail from Toyota executive office in California saying that 5w-20 will be allowed for the Yaris . Sent them the T.S.B. EG018-06 and has been confirmed . Now have approval from the service center where the '08 sedan was purchased and the executive office . Will come in play if any warranty issues should occur when using the 5w-20 . May stick with the 5w-20 at all times . If so , will post an used oil analysis after a few runs of it . That will probably be later in the year ( December ) .

[Happy Little Pony]

Just for laughs, I recently looked up on Pennzoil's website what the recommended oil for my 07 Yaris is. They say 5W20. Then I looked it up on Kendall's and they also say 5w20.

[UberSilver]

My first post will be bring back this old thread. I just changed to Mobil1 10/30 wt. and my 08 is running smoother and has less clatter when cold. It had Toyota 5/30 wt.

I've never bought into the whole water like oil fad. I feel the auto makers are sacrificing our engines for a little bit better mpg. They are clearly under the C.A.R.B. Gun.

JFYI.:smile:

[bronsin]

Just for laughs, I recently looked up on Pennzoil's website what the recommended oil for my 07 Yaris is. They say 5W20. Then I looked it up on Kendall's and they also say 5w20.

WHats your owners manual say?:iono: