Engine rebuild or engine change? big dilemma....

[Elwe2k]

So I went to the shop to get a CEL scan from a P0301 misfiring code on a possible bad injector. Last time I went to the shop with the CEL on was for the same code, mechanic decided to switch injectors 1 & 2 to see if it was the cause of the problem. Yesterday the CEL showed up again, went to the shop and the man told me that there are 2 possible reasons for that misfire code: 1) injector is indeed toasted or 2) valve stem seals are worn on that cylinder and they have to be replaced.

Overall it's not a biggie, you replace the seals, clean the cylinder head and off you go... but since my car has 225k+ miles on the clock it may be a good time to do a rebuild. So, here's the dilemma that's been nagging me right now: is an engine rebuild necessary since the head is going to be removed? I've read that misfires can be caused by worn piston rings as well, but in my case that's not likely (I think), car runs fine at the moment, rough idle is the only concern. I have replaced some parts like fuel pump and filter assembly, camshaft and crankshaft sensors, PCV valve, spark plugs (Bosch Iridium ones), ran a vacuum test with no sign of leaks and checked ignition coils which are OK. There's some oil loss as well, no leaks whatsoever. Maybe those worn valve stem seals are causing that.

What do you guys think? replace the valve seals only or go thru a complete engine rebuild? I was thinking on swapping to a newer 1NZ from late Yaris models too, but I guess those are a bit expensive at the moment, and that's not including labor and some parts.

Speaking of labor and costs... Shop is charging me $1400 bucks, parts & labor with 1-year warranty.... Funny thing is the car was $1200 when I bought it:laugh:

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

[miiser]

If you maintained you engine properly stick with it. First of all you know your engine. You know what it's been up with.
A used engine is a very big risk. You don't know how many miles has made. The seller will might told you 100.000 for example. But you can't be sure. There is nothing that can show you how many miles has made for sure. Also you don't know if its maintained properly, or if the owner was taking care of the engine (not high revs or driving like crazy all day etc)
Secondly I don't think that swapping to a newer engine will be easy. I think you will need a new gearbox aswell.

To sum up, if you maintained your engine properly and you were taking care of her, keep your engine and just fix the issues. But this requires a good mechanic. He must be an expert on his job. Rebuild an engine is not that simple as it looks.

But anyways, personally I strongly believe that you have to keep your engine.
I have made engine swap in 2 of my older cars. It didn't went that well. The first one was an Alfa Romeo (yes the most unreliable cars in the world :p ). I had many strange noises coming out from the <<new>> engine. I only kept it for 5 months after the engine swap. Then I bought a new car.
The second car I had to swap an engine was a Nissan vanette (a van). The engine that I had put in, was burning oil like crazy. And then, water went in into the cylinders. That was the end of that.
(And keep in mind that I had properly maintained both of them)


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[ncp13]

I hate to be a bugger but a missfiring cylinder could be from a bad injector , bad ignition coil, spark plug , burned valve , and low compression on the specific cylinder etc...

Did he swap ignition coil with another cylinder?

P0301 is missfire on cyl #1 p0302 cyl #2 .... Etc and p0300 random misfire..

Check the health of your engine with a leak down or compression test. That will help you with diagnosis of your symptom too :wink:

Otherwise find a used 1nz engine and grab it :) its your cheaper option :thumbsup:

[dogsridewith]

see if #1 plug is watery wet, and shine a flashlight down into #1 cylinder

[bronsin]

You can get a used engine from a wreck with certain knowledge of how many miles were on it for a pretty good price if you look around.

Dont know if that will fit your situation but theyre out there.

[tmontague]

I'd say your best bet it to get a new 1nz with low miles, will cost much less than a rebuild.

If you were changing the valve seals yourself then I'd say just do that, but seeing as a mechanic is doing it and the cost is fairly high, I'd just get a new engine

[why?]

If you are even thinking about getting a new engine it is worth checking out prices. Of course you can always change the engine as well. A 2zz or even a 1.8 from a normal Corolla is really fun.

[SirDigby]

valve stem seals are worn on that cylinder and they have to be replaced.

I have replaced some parts like fuel pump and filter assembly, camshaft and crankshaft sensors, PCV valve, spark plugs (Bosch Iridium ones)

Speaking of labor and costs... Shop is charging me $1400 bucks, parts & labor with 1-year warranty.... Funny thing is the car was $1200 when I bought it:laugh:

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

wait, what? how would valve stems cause a misfire? if it was leaking I would think you would get a consumption of oil and the CEL would be a O2 sensor issue.
why did you replace camshaft?
I can't believe no one noticed you used Bosch plugs. I would guess that is the misfire issue before anything else. you need Denso or NGK. even german cars run NGK. I've always had issues with Bosch plugs.
$1400 is a lot of money. you could buy a complete engine with less than 20,000 miles on it for like $700

[miiser]

wait, what? how would valve stems cause a misfire? if it was leaking I would think you would get a consumption of oil and the CEL would be a O2 sensor issue.

why did you replace camshaft?

I can't believe no one noticed you used Bosch plugs. I would guess that is the misfire issue before anything else. you need Denso or NGK. even german cars run NGK. I've always had issues with Bosch plugs.

$1400 is a lot of money. you could buy a complete engine with less than 20,000 miles on it for like $700



Ok there is no way to find a 20.000 miles engine. If you do, they are lying to you. But anyways I think that you have a point on the spark plugs. And really 1400 to rebuild the engine are a lot of money. You could buy a used one for less. Anyways. I hope everything will be fine now.


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[ex-x-fire]

Are you using a lot of oil? If not then fix the injector,coil, ect.

[Elwe2k]

If you maintained you engine properly stick with it. First of all you know your engine. You know what it's been up with.

Well, I bought the car from a guy that bought it from a used car dealer, so It's hard to determine how well it was maintained over the years, nevertheless it was a good deal for it though. The car was not in a good shape because it didn't have the proper maintenance... heck! it didn't have oil at all when I picked it up! for now i'm trying to restore it for normal commute use. With minimum DIY mechanical work i've managed to recover it and so far it's doing well.

Did he swap ignition coil with another cylinder?

He only swapped injector #1 with #2. Coils are OK at the moment.

see if #1 plug is watery wet, and shine a flashlight down into #1 cylinder

How do I do that? my DIY mechanical knowledge is limited.... :rolleyes:

You can get a used engine from a wreck with certain knowledge of how many miles were on it for a pretty good price if you look around.

Dont know if that will fit your situation but theyre out there.

Replacing the engine with a used one definitely is my best bet as it seems. Thing is though, i'm new to H-town so I have to figure out where's a good wrecker or junkyard around here, and hopefully find a totalled yaris with a low-mileage engine. Will do my homework for sure...

I'd say your best bet it to get a new 1nz with low miles, will cost much less than a rebuild.

If you were changing the valve seals yourself then I'd say just do that, but seeing as a mechanic is doing it and the cost is fairly high, I'd just get a new engine

I tell you man, IF I knew i'll definitely give it a shot. Sure there's plenty of YT tutorials, online guides and lots of useful things to help you do it... but I don't want to mess around things more than they already are. Another vote for engine swap...

A 2zz or even a 1.8 from a normal Corolla is really fun.

Sounds interesting... But it sounds expensive too. Plus you have the fitment issue so i'm probably better off with a 1NZ

wait, what? how would valve stems cause a misfire? if it was leaking I would think you would get a consumption of oil and the CEL would be a O2 sensor issue.
why did you replace camshaft?
I can't believe no one noticed you used Bosch plugs. I would guess that is the misfire issue before anything else. you need Denso or NGK. even german cars run NGK. I've always had issues with Bosch plugs.
$1400 is a lot of money. you could buy a complete engine with less than 20,000 miles on it for like $700

Searching in the web I came across with information that says bad valve stems and/or worn piston rings or guides are some the reasons for misfire codes. I'm sure engine is leaking somewhere, and since I haven't found any leaks in the parking spot maybe the leak is inside the cylinder head and in that particular cylinder (correct me if i'm wrong). Here's the link to it:

http://www.underhoodservice.com/common-causes-misfire-codes/

No code for O2 sensor is present, only P0300 and P0301 at the moment, so is not the O2 sensor.

I replaced the camshaft positioning sensor and the crankshaft positioning sensor because codes P0335 and P0340 were present. Replaced the bad sensors, erased codes after and that was the end of those issues.

So, Bosch spark plugs are bad? I bought them cuz I didn't found Denso or NGK ones right away and the car needed a spark plug change ASAP, so I went for those. Have to check them out again to see if there's a problem with them, but yeah.... NGK and Denso are far better.

Are you using a lot of oil? If not then fix the injector,coil, ect.

I think I used a 1/4 of a quart to fill it up again. Last time I did a oil change I used a 4 qt of Pennzoil high-mileage 10-w30 motor oil with a Mobil 1 oil filter, it took almost the whole jug of 4qts and left some, so there's that. I think injectors are good, so are the coils, maybe they're all fine cuz I haven't noticed any sputtering from the engine though. What about 2ZZ injectors? if the actual ones are messed up maybe I can get these from a Celica around somewhere....

[miiser]

If, as you said you don't know what the previous owners did with that engine, really go for a new used one. Don't think about it


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[SirDigby]

you don't want 2zz or 1zz injectors unless you are running forced induction or you are converting to E85. they will flood the engine with fuel. to check pistons for wetness you'd pull out a spark plug and shine a light into the hole. maybe need to rotate crank to bring piston closer to the hole. you could also pull the intake manifold and inspect the valves through the ports for bleed-by. if leaking the valves will be all brown and oily. a 1zzfe out of a scionXD/corolla will prob go for the same price as a 1nzfe. maybe $100 more....

[tmontague]

As far as I know the xd only contained the 2zrfe, not the 1zz, but around here a 2zr is only a couple hundred more.

That said since a mechanic will be doing it for you, a direct 1nz swap will be the cheapest option as it a simple plug and play

[jra]

If the car runs well and it's just the check engine light you are concerned with, I would just keep driving it until it bit the dust. You might try to replacing 1qt. of oil with 1 qt. of lucas oil stabilizer, could help a lot with the oil problem, make sure your pvc valve isn't plugged.

[SirDigby]

Ok there is no way to find a 20.000 miles engine. If you do, they are lying to you.



here is one from LKQ. they are a pretty reliable company. 26,000mi $400+ shipping ($200) there is LOTS of these out there. old people would buy them and just drive around town.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-Toyota-Yaris-1-5L-Engine-Motor-4cyl-OEM-26K-Miles-LKQ-142786863-/311781632985?hash=item4897a22bd9:g:ugkAAOSw5cNYfSR q&vxp=mtr

[Elwe2k]

If, as you said you don't know what the previous owners did with that engine, really go for a new used one. Don't think about it

Definitely my best bet then. You mentioned that i'll have to change the transmission as well, right?

you don't want 2zz or 1zz injectors unless you are running forced induction or you are converting to E85. they will flood the engine with fuel. to check pistons for wetness you'd pull out a spark plug and shine a light into the hole. maybe need to rotate crank to bring piston closer to the hole. you could also pull the intake manifold and inspect the valves through the ports for bleed-by. if leaking the valves will be all brown and oily. a 1zzfe out of a scionXD/corolla will prob go for the same price as a 1nzfe. maybe $100 more....

I'll check for floods in the cylinders. Can you tell me what tools do I need to rotate the crank? inspection through intake manifold seems pretty straightforward though...

As for the 1zzfe swap, I think it will be a tight fit in the Echo's engine bay, not to mention that I have to source the ECU & tranny for that motor, plus fitment labor, needed parts for this swap and so on... Same story goes with the 2zzge. 1nz with a supercharger might do the job perfect.

a direct 1nz swap will be the cheapest option as it a simple plug and play

Indeed. Some bolt-ons like header, exhaust, CAI.... Maybe supercharge it later. Sounds cool right?

What about a tranny swap? My car is A/T (don't blame me for that) since the engine has so many miles maybe will be a good idea to replace it, and with a manual. I've read that tranny swaps are a pain in the a** but I'd like to hear what you think...

If the car runs well and it's just the check engine light you are concerned with, I would just keep driving it until it bit the dust. You might try to replacing 1qt. of oil with 1 qt. of lucas oil stabilizer, could help a lot with the oil problem, make sure your pvc valve isn't plugged.

That might work as well... I'd just keep an eye on the fluids and giving standard maintenance to it until it really needs an engine change, that way I can save for the swap. Car indeed runs good, no sputtering or strangeness whatsoever, the only thing that bothers me is that juddering on idle. I have to put it in neutral everytime i'm at stoplights, everything else is fine.

As for the Lucas Oil Stabilizer, this replaces conventional oil then? or is it an additive? Disconnect the PCV tube before adding this as well?

Speaking of that PCV valve, i've replaced it with a new one. Pretty nasty stuff... Here's some pics of that:

http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af305/gyelamoj/Echo-Yaris/Mechanical/IMG_7489_zpsrztu7nhc.jpg (http://s1018.photobucket.com/user/gyelamoj/media/Echo-Yaris/Mechanical/IMG_7489_zpsrztu7nhc.jpg.html)

http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af305/gyelamoj/Echo-Yaris/Mechanical/IMG_7488_zpszmpgwpy5.jpg (http://s1018.photobucket.com/user/gyelamoj/media/Echo-Yaris/Mechanical/IMG_7488_zpszmpgwpy5.jpg.html)

[ncp13]

If you still have a misfire with P0301 try to follow the diagnostic proccedure

You said that your mechanic swaped injectors and that did not change anything correct? So that tells us that the injector was ok.

Swap the coils from the misfiring cylinder with another one 2 or 3 or 4.
Cylinder 1 is closest to your timing chain or oil fill cap.

If your DTC changes to P030( the cyl# from where you swapped the coil) you have your bad coil.

Another common failure is Coil failure from oil leak to the injector coils. You will see when you remove them if they are filled with oil.

And the if you still have no luck do a leak down test , or a compression test on the cylinder that gives you the DTC. If you get low reading you then have a misfire from low compression on that cylinder.

If you poor a little oil on that cylinder and the compression goes up its usually piston rings.. or cylider damage. If nothing changes with the oil the source of the low compression is further up from the valves. ( burned or bend valve, etc.. )


Good luck. :smile:

[dogsridewith]

At the beginning of a coolant ingestion head gasket failure, the car can still run great. Spark plug will look cleaner/whiter than the others. Miss at startup may set code...I know nothing of code-setting.

[ncp13]

That is very true. You should notice coolant loss.

[Elwe2k]

If you still have a misfire with P0301 try to follow the diagnostic proccedure

You said that your mechanic swaped injectors and that did not change anything correct? So that tells us that the injector was ok.

Swap the coils from the misfiring cylinder with another one 2 or 3 or 4.
Cylinder 1 is closest to your timing chain or oil fill cap.

If your DTC changes to P030( the cyl# from where you swapped the coil) you have your bad coil.

Another common failure is Coil failure from oil leak to the injector coils. You will see when you remove them if they are filled with oil.

And the if you still have no luck do a leak down test , or a compression test on the cylinder that gives you the DTC. If you get low reading you then have a misfire from low compression on that cylinder.

If you poor a little oil on that cylinder and the compression goes up its usually piston rings.. or cylider damage. If nothing changes with the oil the source of the low compression is further up from the valves. ( burned or bend valve, etc.. )

That is very true. You should notice coolant loss.

At the beginning of a coolant ingestion head gasket failure, the car can still run great. Spark plug will look cleaner/whiter than the others. Miss at startup may set code...I know nothing of code-setting.

Going to check those coils again. Now that you mention it, i'm loosing a bit of coolant. I have to refill sometimes with water. I'll check on coolant leaks as well.

Checked underneath the car and the oil pan has a little leak near the oil screw, maybe that's causing that oil leak too... A bad gasket perhaps.

I'll keep you guys posted.

[dogsridewith]

What shows at seams and surfaces further down the engine can be oil coming down from the head gasket...they fail at varying rates various places. The pressurized passage for head oil on my Corolla was off the right side of #1...the cylinder that had the worst coolant leak in the HG failure. And oil wept oil down that side of the engine.

[miiser]

here is one from LKQ. they are a pretty reliable company. 26,000mi $400+ shipping ($200) there is LOTS of these out there. old people would buy them and just drive around town.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-Toyota-Yaris-1-5L-Engine-Motor-4cyl-OEM-26K-Miles-LKQ-142786863-/311781632985?hash=item4897a22bd9:g:ugkAAOSw5cNYfSR q&vxp=mtr



There is no way a motor like this, so new (2010), 1,5l and only 26.000 miles to be so cheap. Also there is no way, to give only 6 month warranty on such a new engine.
It's too cheap to be true. All the companies lies. Even the reliable ones. They just open the motor, they clean it, they change some damaged parts and you can't tell if its 20.000 mile engine or 100.000 mile engine or even worse. There is absolute no way. Trust me.


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[WeeYari]

There is no way a motor like this, so new (2010), 1,5l and only 26.000 miles to be so cheap. Also there is no way, to give only 6 month warranty on such a new engine.
It's too cheap to be true. All the companies lies. Even the reliable ones. They just open the motor, they clean it, they change some damaged parts and you can't tell if its 20.000 mile engine or 100.000 mile engine or even worse. There is absolute no way. Trust me.


Be careful drawing conclusions based on North American vs European markets. These things are not big ticket items over here.

[tmontague]

Very true, and 1nz's in North America are easy to come by and no in high demand due to their reliabikity, this keeps the costs low.

I picked up my 2zr with 89k km on it from a 2011 corolla at my local Recyclers for $600.

It's true you don't know the exact mileage on it and they could be lying but a large well know recycler that has a good reputation and wants to keep it will likely not be messing around with the mileage. Even more unlikely if they have a handful of those engines for sale with varying mileage and price. Take a look at other engines they sell, if they're all very low km's and none have high km's with a lower price then there is a higher chance they're bs the mileage.

When I stripped my engine down to the block everything looked great and exactly as it should've for its mileage. They give oil pressure ratings, oil consumption and compression. (although I'm not too sure how they would measure that in a totalled car)

[dogsridewith]

Lots of totaled cars run well. Some even drive OK or fine. Push a front corner enough to dent the front of the door and crack the windshield. Often, that's totaled.
It's just cost to fix is more than value fixed.
(Or could be really hammered in the rear, but still able to drag itself around the lot in low gear(s).)

[IllusionX]

The 1nzfe was going for about 500$ CAD 12 years ago. Complete with transmission for an Echo.

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[SirDigby]

Lots of totaled cars run well. Some even drive OK or fine. Push a front corner enough to dent the front of the door and crack the windshield. Often, that's totaled.
It's just cost to fix is more than value fixed.
(Or could be really hammered in the rear, but still able to drag itself around the lot in low gear(s).)

I just got mine back from the body shop, rear hammering. I can't believe they didn't total it out! they did $4600 in repairs! on an 07! i'm so happy I get to keep it.

most big recyclers have an engine dyno that they do their testing on. they do not need the car for testing. I would trust their millage because they have like 50 of them for sale. they are a good company and have good representation.

[tmontague]

most big recyclers have an engine dyno that they do their testing on.

Ahh I see, I've always wondered how people bench test their engines, what would a set up like that consist of?