Self driving car kills its first pedestrian!

[bronsin]

Well it finally happened... i’ve always wondered who would be held responsible for such a tragedy seems like it would have to be the manufacturer.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/19/self-driving-uber-crash-could-open-company-to-criminal-charges.html

[Kalispel]

Welcome to the future, and our grand dystopia in-the-making.

[bronsin]

Also interesting ... there was a driver ready to take control of the vehicle in case of a problem ....So much for that idea I wonder how that will affect people’s perception of someone being able to take control of these cars. Obviously in this case it didn’t happen.

[Captain Yaris]

I normally am not a sue happy person, but Uber needs it’s pants sued off for this. This instance could set a precedence of how companies are treated with relation to automated vehicles and they must be made an example of. Then manufactures of automated tech will think twice about pushing this Jetson’s themed agenda.

[bronsin]

Companies like Uber aren’t dumb. The question of liability for their product must have occurred to them long before this and also the fact that they are the deep pockets and vulnerable to litigation. I’m wondering what legal steps they have taken to protect themselves? And if those steps will become a parent in the days to come.

Or..... are they as clueless as to the legal Ramifications of their situation as they apparently were clueless as to the dangers of their product?

[tmontague]

Title should read: Pedestrian walls in front of car

Self driven or not the person would have likely died, which is why you look both ways when crossing the street

[bronsin]

Yes what you say is most likely true. When pedestrians are killed by cars 70% of the time it’s the pedestrians fault. However artificial intelligence is supposed to prevent accidents no matter who’s at fault.

Already we have artificial intelligence in cars sold to the public who’s commercials show a child walking front of a car at a crosswalk. The driver who is not paying attention doesn’t hurt the child thanks to the artificial intelligence of the car.

Since these cars have been driving around for quite some time, it should be possible to statistically determine whether they are any safer and how much safer then human operation. There have been many non-fatal accidents with them and one fatal accident involving a Tesla. It would be interesting to see the statistics.

[toad]

Self-driving cars aren't going anywhere. This is a terrible situation and although we don't yet know all the facts one thing is certain- a person died. Are we rushing maybe a little too fast with this technology? Of course! However, this(like so many things) comes down to money. Companies such as ride-share services and freight companies stand to save A TON with this technology. Automobile manufacturers will have another reason to raise prices and even the insurance companies will be able to lower their risk(eventually).

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/self-driving-cars-still-super-safe-even-uber-death-210826199.html

The above article shows some of the statistics you ask about. They do nothing for the victims' families, but the courts will figure out who should be held responsible. My guess is soon we will see laws protecting these companies and the manufacturers. Money talks.

[bronsin]

That was interesting to read although I didn’t see any statistics compiled from existing data on self driving cars. I to expect The real prospect of laws protecting manufactures and I expect they already know how to cover their ass.

It’s a complicated situation. I am in favor of cheaper cars not more expensive cars. We already have enough safety stuff. However I have Parkinson’s and maybe a self driving car would be in my interest at some point. However I doubt I’ll be able to afford it.

[bronsin]

New information in the pedestrian death with self driving vehicle ....

And it’s worse for Uber. The predestrian was walking from left to right in front of the vehicle. This means that there was plenty of time to for the car to react to the pedestrian. Had the pedestrian been walking from right to left there would have been much less time. Furthermore it’s been noted that the pedestrian was not in the crosswalk. As though that were a mitigating factor. It’s clear that even had the pedestrian been in the crosswalk this accident still would’ve happened.

It’s going to be a lot harder for Uber to explain why it’s technology didn’t work.

[Runethecursed]

Or why the attendant behind the wheel didnt intervene.

We talked about this at work, and while theres alot of fist shaking here about how autonomous cars are supposed to prevent this, the truth is everything is still very much experimental,

the pedestrian was jaywalking which assumes her own life into her hands, and this time it happened to be an autonomous car.

that's how I see it.


that said, I'm also interested in how to prevent this in the future, is there a way to install infrared sensors and run a computer program to distinguish humanoid shapes from backgrounds and calculate speed and trajectory? If all that tech could be installed and tested I think it would reduce the chances of something like this occurring, that said if it's too sensitive then you get a car jamming on its brakes everytime a human sneezes.

this brought me to the realization in the proper future with technology we need to change the infrastructure of how cities are built to adapt walkways separate from autonomous roads.

[bronsin]

And I think I learned to drive 74 beetle with four wheel drum brakes manually adjusted, no ABS, no traction control, no cruise control, no Lane holding feature, no automatic braking anything. :eek:

And I’m still in one piece! :biggrin:

[Captain Yaris]

And I think I learned to drive 74 beetle with four wheel drum brakes manually adjusted, no ABS, no traction control, no cruise control, no Lane holding feature, no automatic braking anything. :eek:

And I’m still in one piece! :biggrin:

Ahhh,... the good ol’ days! :burnrubber:

[bronsin]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/22/dashcam-video-deadly-self-driving-uber-crash-released.html

[bronsin]

It’s pretty clear from the released videos that one, the detection system failed to see the cycle list and prevent the accident. Two there was nothing the “safety driver“ could have done to prevent what happened. In my opinion the fault lies with the cycle list for crossing a dark road not in the crosswalk. It’s not the drivers fault. There’s nothing they could’ve humanly done to prevent the accident. But the car with radar and lidar should have seen the cyclist and prevented the accident.

Perhaps Uber will be found responsible for testing a car in public that could not have prevented the accident. If this was just a human driver driving a car in this circumstance in my Opinion the authorities would blame the cycle is not the driver.

Also it appears the car was doing 38 mph in aI 35 mile an hour zone. Which is technically speaking speeding and might be held against Uber. But if I we’re on a jury I would still blame the cyclist for the accident.

[bronsin]

It’s also pretty clear Uber better stop using “safety drivers“ to prevent accidents. There’s not a damn thing the driver could’ve done to prevent the accident in my opinion.

[ern-diz]

I honestly believe it boils down to what I've pointed out in other threads on the topic - once we have a statistically significant amount of data on self driving cars and can determine they are responsible for less deaths per year than human drivers, then self driving cars will simply makes sense.

Unfortunately, it's going to take some time to get to that inflection point and more people will die --but it's not as though thousands of people aren't dying now because of human error. I will also reiterate that I personally hope we never get to a point where only self driving cars are allowed on the road. I enjoy driving and would always like to have the option.

[Runethecursed]

Unfortunately, it's going to take some time to get to that inflection point and more people will die --but it's not as though thousands of people aren't dying now because of human error. I will also reiterate that I personally hope we never get to a point where only self driving cars are allowed on the road. I enjoy driving and would always like to have the option.

I think in bigger nations ( US specifically) we cannot in any shape or form get rid of roads and personal operated vehicles as a whole, that said If you live in urban America, i think it is completely reasonable to have sort of a two vehicle garage, one with a gas.hybrid for long road trips (cause face it, that wont go away) and the other being a self driving all electric gizmo

Like I mentioned I think the infrastructure of cities need to be changed so they are more "autonomous" but more nimble than say a train (be it subway, el or metra) course I also want a cyber punk future with people living in buildings and elevated glass walk ways and jet packs... :thumbup:

[ern-diz]

I think in bigger nations ( US specifically) we cannot in any shape or form get rid of roads and personal operated vehicles as a whole, that said If you live in urban America, i think it is completely reasonable to have sort of a two vehicle garage, one with a gas.hybrid for long road trips (cause face it, that wont go away) and the other being a self driving all electric gizmo

Like I mentioned I think the infrastructure of cities need to be changed so they are more "autonomous" but more nimble than say a train (be it subway, el or metra) course I also want a cyber punk future with people living in buildings and elevated glass walk ways and jet packs... :thumbup:

Ha! Skyways for the win :biggrin:

[NYC-SE]

Interesting (and scary) article about Uber's driverless cars:

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/03/video-suggests-huge-problems-with-ubers-driverless-car-program/?amp=1

From the article:

"Conventional car crashes killed 37,461 in the United States in 2016, which works out to 1.18 deaths per 100 million miles driven. Uber announced that it had driven 2 million miles by December 2017 and is probably up to around 3 million miles today. If you do the math, that means that Uber's cars have killed people at roughly 25 times the rate of a typical human-driven car in the United States."

[bronsin]

Yikes!

I’m wondering what is the mechanism used to prevent accidents on the self driving car S? Is something connected to the brakes and the steering mechanism? Or is it just the brakes? I’m thinking A connection to the steering mechanism would be a lot more complicated than just the brakes. It makes a difference because using just the brakes would not prevent a lot of accidents the car would have to be steered also. And using breaks while steering is problematic . This whole thing is getting complicated!

[CrankyOldMan]

Having been trained as a traffic accident investigator, there is a very simple way to determine if the vehicle was at fault. You have to figure out the coefficient of friction on the roadway (with a drag sled) and the estimated distance the danger was first noticed (based on skid marks). You then calculate the distance to stop at the speed limit from that point. If the collision would have happened before the vehicle would have stopped, the driver is not at fault because it's not physically possible to have stopped in time. I'm quite certain that Uber has already hired private investigators to reconstruct the scene and are working overtime with their systems engineers to understand why the autopilot didn't detect the hazard. I'm guessing that the smaller radar print and being in the oncoming lane had a lot to do with it.

As for the "rate per million miles" working out to "25 times" the human rate, there's exactly ONE data point for this situation. There's lies, damned lies, and statistics.

[bronsin]

There is no excuse for the vehicle not to have avoided killing the pedestrian. That is what the builders of these vehicles have promised the public. This should’ve been a slamdunk for self driving vehicles. There was no other traffic there were no other pedestrians there was nothing to interfere with the detection system. It’s also damning that there have been no videos released by these people showing their car preventing accidents. In fact it’s logical to suppose if they had such videos they would’ve been made public long ago. If they have them now’s the time to release them !

Frankly the evidence suggests these vehicles will not prevent accidents at all. The legal implications interests me greatly. Who will be found at fault for An accident? The driver who wasn’t driving the vehicle at the time? Hard to understand that one. It’s more likely the people who made the car will be found liable.

Even more likely the manufactures will snow everybody into believing they are not responsible when they have made the claim all along that there will be less or no accidents involving their product.

[ern-diz]

...they have made the claim all along that there will be less or no accidents involving their product.

Like with all emerging technology, it's going to take time to get to that point.

[tmontague]

Interesting (and scary) article about Uber's driverless cars:

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/03/video-suggests-huge-problems-with-ubers-driverless-car-program/?amp=1

From the article:

"Conventional car crashes killed 37,461 in the United States in 2016, which works out to 1.18 deaths per 100 million miles driven. Uber announced that it had driven 2 million miles by December 2017 and is probably up to around 3 million miles today. If you do the math, that means that Uber's cars have killed people at roughly 25 times the rate of a typical human-driven car in the United States."

The joys of reading the media butcher statistics, typically it's when reporting on medicine that grinds my gears. Publishing relative figures is hyperbole, absolute numbers is what is more appropriate to publish

[bronsin]

Kind of like global warming it will be interesting to see what happens. I doubt I’ll be around when global warning Gets proved right or wrong, but it’s possible I’ll live to see self driving cars succeed or fail.

[bronsin]

Like with all emerging technology, it's going to take time to get to that point.

I agree but it’s time for these people to put their cards on the table. Exactly what are these cars capable of at this point? If we were to take all of their cars and simulate this tragedy with the woman was pushing her bicycle across the street Would they avoid the accident? Have they themselves before they asked for permission to drive on the street simulated this accident? And what were the results?

Inquiring minds want to know! :biggrin:

[bronsin]

Something just occurred to me. Computers can compute at the speed of light but cars have mechanical limitations. Perhaps a computer can solve a problem like someone walking in front of a car, But no matter how fast It can do that mechanically the car cannot obey it’s commands. The accident is going to happen anyway.

In the case of the woman walking in from the car with her bicycle I don’t think it even got to the point where the car solve the problem in the computer.

It would appear self Driving cars that avoid accidents humans can avoid is at least in part an illusion. Or 90% an illusion. :rolleyes:

It appears we’ve Ben had folks!

[NYC-SE]

I just don't see the need for a self driving car. It does interest me from a technical standpoint. I think it would be a great adventure trying to get it to work properly. And I am sure that eventually they will get there.

But what is driving this progress? Not the adventure of discovery. It is greed and not need in my opinion. Why do we as consumers need a driverless car? If you don't want to drive take a bus! Or an Uber...ahh there it is. If Uber finally gets this right then they can eliminate the drivers from the equation. No more having to split fares with them. It's greed motivating this thing, not need.

[ern-diz]

I just don't see the need for a self driving car. It does interest me from a technical standpoint. I think it would be a great adventure trying to get it to work properly. And I am sure that eventually they will get there.

But what is driving this progress? Not the adventure of discovery. It is greed and not need in my opinion. Why do we as consumers need a driverless car? If you don't want to drive take a bus! Or an Uber...ahh there it is. If Uber finally gets this right then they can eliminate the drivers from the equation. No more having to split fares with them. It's greed motivating this thing, not need.

Following the money is always a safe bet but I think the genesis of this from the good intention folks out there is the hope that through technology, we'll get to a place where less road deaths happen from self-driving cars than human drivers. Nowhere near that yet but that's the idea.

Self-driving cars will also allow passengers to use the commute time on other things. For example, I have a friend that rides the train to work specifically so he can use the time to study for the LSAT.

[Captain Yaris]

Following the money is always a safe bet but I think the genesis of this from the good intention folks out there is the hope that through technology, we'll get to a place where less road deaths happen from self-driving cars than human drivers. Nowhere near that yet but that's the idea.

Self-driving cars will also allow passengers to use the commute time on other things. For example, I have a friend that rides the train to work specifically so he can use the time to study for the LSAT.

So then your friend becomes a lawyer, makes a ton of cash, and tries to buy an exotic expensive car, oh wait... “For want of a nail, the kingdom was lost.”

[ern-diz]

So then your friend becomes a lawyer, makes a ton of cash, and tries to buy an exotic expensive car, oh wait... “For want of a nail, the kingdom was lost.”

Ha!