Standalone ECU questions

[tmontague]

Can anyone who has installed a standalone ECU on a DBW throttle car please give me some input on the wiring.

If I wire in a standalone can the factory ECU be left with only the necessary connection ie: throttle and anything else it run other than the engine? Obviously a bunch of CEL's will be thrown but that isn't an issue. Or is it better to use a standalone that can operate a DBW throttle? In the near future when I foot the bill for thise I don't plan on cheaping out but I also don't want to pay a bunch more for a standalone that controls the throttle if the factory ECU does just fine.

This is new territory for me and I've read a lot but I'm looking for some real world advice for those that have standalones on their Yaris or have used them before in other cars. I have so far been looking at the AEM EMS 4 as it is optimised for 4 bangers, but I am open to other products as well. I already have AEM gauges so I'm somewhat leaning that way however.

Thanks

[ArmstrongRacing]

Sorry bud, I have no experience here.

I will tell you though that controlling dual vvti will be a challenge since most manufacturers don't. When I was considering this as well I felt like there was no real solution, and lots of extra money will be required to customize an EMS for the 2zr and n/a tuning.

However, I hope you can figure it out so I can follow lolol

[Leegamer]

Have you looked into the Holley Dominator? I believe it could manage it.

I would almost say it's worth going full standalone just to eliminate rev hang. lol

[tmontague]

the rev hang was never an issue for me, especially with the lightweight flywheel.

It seems to be the most cost effective to just disable the vvti system and tune based off of that. Since this car will more or less just be a track car, I don't see loosing the vvti as a big deal for performance when run with stage 2 cams. From my understanding the vvti is beneficial when you drive in a wide range such as DDing and then on a track as it optimises the timing for various situations. Anyone with experience please feel free to add to this.

Even if I run an ecu that can control vvti it would seem that it would take a lot more dyno time for the tuner to tune for it vs just disabling it. at least that's what I have gathered so far

[xnamerxx]

So this is how I wired it up. VVT, Fuel, Spark, and cam/crank sensors are run off of the AEM. Throttle and MAF are still being controlled by the stock ECU so it'll control the throttle, you'll have no control of idle so the idle won't run very well.

If you go with a haltech 1500 or AEM infinity you'll have DBW control and can wire the whole engine in without needing the stock ecu to control throttle.

[xnamerxx]

Gotta be careful about what ECU's you run, not all of the support the Toyota Cam\Crank timing. I know that my AEM series 2 will do dual VVT, but in your situation with the EMS-4 I'd just leave the exhaust cam controlled by the stock ECU.

[tmontague]

Gotta be careful about what ECU's you run, not all of the support the Toyota Cam\Crank timing. I know that my AEM series 2 will do dual VVT, but in your situation with the EMS-4 I'd just leave the exhaust cam controlled by the stock ECU.

thanks for the info. I'm not partial to the EMS 4, I would just like to stay with AEM if possible so I can hook my gauges up to it if need be.

Does the stock ecu need the MAF signal to run the throttle? and can the factory ecu control the dual vvti without having all of the other sensors connected (ie: fuel, ignition, cam,crank)?

The infinity almost doubles the price and not sure if that would be worth it just for throttle control.

EDIT* I think a smart next step foir me would be to find a tuner within my area that deals has experience with 4 bangers and Toyotas and ask what they recommend. At the end of the day, they will be tuning it so the more comfortable they are with the software and ecu, the better

[xnamerxx]

thanks for the info. I'm not partial to the EMS 4, I would just like to stay with AEM if possible so I can hook my gauges up to it if need be.

Does the stock ecu need the MAF signal to run the throttle? and can the factory ecu control the dual vvti without having all of the other sensors connected (ie: fuel, ignition, cam,crank)?

The infinity almost doubles the price and not sure if that would be worth it just for throttle control.

EDIT* I think a smart next step foir me would be to find a tuner within my area that deals has experience with 4 bangers and Toyotas and ask what they recommend. At the end of the day, they will be tuning it so the more comfortable they are with the software and ecu, the better



It needs the MAF singnal or it it goes into limp mode and doesn't allow more than 20% throttle, you'll either need to add another MAF sensor or add a MAP sensor, I went the MAP route. You'll want to control the intake cam as there is alot of power to be had there, and I think the EMS-4 is very capable of doing that. But yeah if you didn't want to wire those up you can easily have the stock ecu control vvt, but it may start doing weird things trying to learn its way out of not being able to control spark or fuel. You'll also want to wire the knock sensor up to the new ECU since its going to be controlling spark and fuel. All of the ECU's are pretty much the same in regards to tuning, at least thats what my tuner tells me, but they prefer tuning with Motec but I can't swing the 3-4k for one of those.

I think the EMS-4 should be more than capable of doing what you're asking, since I'm sure there isn't much power to be had messing with the exhaust cam, I even think MWR sells a ecu kit for the corolla that uses this ECU, but I'm not sure the wiring is the same for the XD as it is for the corolla.

[tmontague]

It needs the MAF singnal or it it goes into limp mode and doesn't allow more than 20% throttle, you'll either need to add another MAF sensor or add a MAP sensor, I went the MAP route. You'll want to control the intake cam as there is alot of power to be had there, and I think the EMS-4 is very capable of doing that. But yeah if you didn't want to wire those up you can easily have the stock ecu control vvt, but it may start doing weird things trying to learn its way out of not being able to control spark or fuel. You'll also want to wire the knock sensor up to the new ECU since its going to be controlling spark and fuel. All of the ECU's are pretty much the same in regards to tuning, at least thats what my tuner tells me, but they prefer tuning with Motec but I can't swing the 3-4k for one of those.

I think the EMS-4 should be more than capable of doing what you're asking, since I'm sure there isn't much power to be had messing with the exhaust cam, I even think MWR sells a ecu kit for the corolla that uses this ECU, but I'm not sure the wiring is the same for the XD as it is for the corolla.

I plan on going the MAP route as well, and i definitely don't trust the ecu ton control vvti without receiving all of the other inputs. I am going to look into the EMS4 some more and potentially plan to have it control the vvti at leats on the intake side if it cannot do both. I hope to use the stock ecu just for throttle and leave it hooked up to the MAF.

How bad is the idle with the set up?

[xnamerxx]

I plan on going the MAP route as well, and i definitely don't trust the ecu ton control vvti without receiving all of the other inputs. I am going to look into the EMS4 some more and potentially plan to have it control the vvti at leats on the intake side if it cannot do both. I hope to use the stock ecu just for throttle and leave it hooked up to the MAF.

How bad is the idle with the set up?

VVT control is actually quite simple. All its looking for is cam angle and frequency for the solenoid, you then get a output that is actual, which is usually a few # off requested. Its a bit fun to advance the solenoid to 40% at idle so it sounds like its got a huge cam. The only down side I've found running the stock throttle is that it wants to hunt for idle speed unless you tune the ecu to reach the same idle speed as the factory one.

[Jason@SportsCar]

Can anyone who has installed a standalone ECU on a DBW throttle car please give me some input on the wiring.

If I wire in a standalone can the factory ECU be left with only the necessary connection ie: throttle and anything else it run other than the engine? Obviously a bunch of CEL's will be thrown but that isn't an issue. Or is it better to use a standalone that can operate a DBW throttle? In the near future when I foot the bill for thise I don't plan on cheaping out but I also don't want to pay a bunch more for a standalone that controls the throttle if the factory ECU does just fine.

This is new territory for me and I've read a lot but I'm looking for some real world advice for those that have standalones on their Yaris or have used them before in other cars. I have so far been looking at the AEM EMS 4 as it is optimised for 4 bangers, but I am open to other products as well. I already have AEM gauges so I'm somewhat leaning that way however.

Thanks

Sadly there is no easy button on this. Bobby has covered it pretty well. You basically have to make your choice, its VVTi control or DBW, not both. EMS2 like Bobby and I use will do the VVTi, but we have to use the OE computer for DBW. Infinity and some others will do the DBW, but wont read the standard Toyota cam sensor - I can be modified, but requires machining the cams.

[Jason@SportsCar]

I plan on going the MAP route as well, and i definitely don't trust the ecu ton control vvti without receiving all of the other inputs. I am going to look into the EMS4 some more and potentially plan to have it control the vvti at leats on the intake side if it cannot do both. I hope to use the stock ecu just for throttle and leave it hooked up to the MAF.

How bad is the idle with the set up?

I think you are on the right path here.

To fix my idle I drilled an 1/8" hole in the butterfly - started smaller and worked up to a spot where the car wouldn't die.

[tmontague]

Hmm, interesting solution with the hole in the butterfly valve - I'll keep that in the back of my mind.

It seems to make sense that if the stock ecu was to control anything it should be the throttle. I just need to lol into the EMS4 controlling vvti but it seems it's a pretty capable unit

What was the issue you were having with the idle ? I'm trying to understand why the stock ecu has an issue keeping the butterfly valve open enough during idle, I can only assume it's due to the lack of other data inputs?

[xnamerxx]

The stock ecu wants the car to idle at 500 rpm and with bigger cams that will make the car stall. But without a big cam, the idle will hunt since the ECU doesn't control fuel and spark.

[tmontague]

I see, thanks for the info

[3cyltrbo]

Question to Jason@SportsCar and xnamerxx

Without giving away too many secrets, can you approximate how much HP can be found with some of these suggested "alternate" tuning/engine management solutions (ie: a standalone that seemingly works in harmony with the factory ecu)

Assuming an N/A setup that was well spec'd and had the required and supporting mods (good intake / good exhaust / possibly cams and headwork etc....) ....what ballpark of power are we talking?

Not to threadjack, but I'm also interested in ECU options since I've been hesitant to swap the OE engine.

Cheers

Will

[benoityip]

I have same engine with stage 2 cam on a corolla running unichip. Biggest obstacle is the rev limit of 6400rpm, Lotus has a supercharger with a 7000rpm rev limit.

The engine won't make additional power over 6000rpm, but it is massively inconvenient on a track to change gear so early. (wasting time)

I hope tmontague can solve this problem

[alias06]

The AEM EMS-4 should have drive by wire functionality, I believe you just have to get a separate module/harness for it to do so. Some of the Celica GT-S and Matrix owners have ran the AEM EMS-4 with DBW and have done it successfully. I even think MWR has the part needed for it, however for the 2ZR I am unsure if there are any differences.

[benoityip]

I am looking at haltech elite 1500 now, if it works, then I will go with it