Won't start, but turning over

[kcty]

My son and I both have Yaris's. Mine has 265,000 miles on it and his has about 150,000 miles on it, so I use mine as a gauge for issues that he might have. However, this time, he has an issue I've not had with mine.

He called the other day, telling me it wouldn't start. So I went out and checked it out. Sure enough... it turns over fine, but won't fire up. I was able to get it to catch some fire just a tiny bit (about a second) one time, but not enough to get it started. Now it just turns over without any fire whatsoever. I pulled a coil and checked for spark. It does have spark. I can't imagine it having a compression issue, so that pretty much leaves fuel. Has anyone else had any issues with the fuel pump, relay, etc? I didn't have long to troubleshoot it, as I was about to leave town (still out of town). I want to test it with ether, but haven't been able to do it just yet.

Anyone have any thoughts?

[B.B._07]

Can you hear the fuel pump priming when you turn the key to the second position (before cranking the engine)? If you can hear it you can assume the pump is getting power and the relay is functioning. If that's the case next step would be to rent a fuel pressure gauge from an auto parts chain.

[kcty]

Thanks, that's a good thought. I can't remember hearing it when I was looking at it, but I know what you're talking about. I usually hear mine. However, I do remember hearing a slight squeal sound from under the hood after trying to start it and leaving the key in the run position. When turning the key off, the squeal went away and did not come back after turning it back to the run position. However, after trying to start it again, the squeal came back. Not sure what it was, but it sounded like it was coming from the engine bay. I know that's not where the fuel pump is, so it wasn't that....

I've never pressure checked the fuel system before. Is that a pain to do?

[Phatdonkey78]

The electronic throttle body will make a squealing kinda sound when the key is in the on position and the gas pedal is pressed. I wonder if the throttle body is stuck in a partially open position and it can't feed enough fuel to compensate for all the air getting in past the open butterfly in the throttle body. Just a thought, but if you turn the key to the on position but don't start, then press the throttle you can hear the sound the throttle body makes on the car that will start. That will at least let you know if its making the same sound.

Hope all of that made sense.

[kcty]

Yep, I bet that’s what it is. I’ll look into it further.

Thank you!!

[kcty]

I'm back in town and was able to look at his car again. Right after turning the key to the on/run position, I do not hear the fuel pump priming. I hear a relay click, but that's it. Not sure if that's the pump relay I'm hearing or something else, but this give me a good starting point. I can do some voltage testing and find out where the issue is.

[IllusionX]

Can you hear the fuel pump priming when you turn the key to the second position (before cranking the engine)? If you can hear it you can assume the pump is getting power and the relay is functioning. If that's the case next step would be to rent a fuel pressure gauge from an auto parts chain.I am pretty sure the Yaris fuel pump doesn't start until you crank.

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

[tmontague]

FWIW I have never been able to hear my fuel pump prime itself.

Be sure to check the engine block grounds that come off the electrical harness on the drivers side of the engine.

After replacing my headgasket on my Echo I forgot one ground and it would turn over fine but not catch and fire up.

[B.B._07]

I am pretty sure the Yaris fuel pump doesn't start until you crank.

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

The fuel pump in modern fuel injected cars always primes the system before you crank the engine to ensure there is enough fuel pressure.

The FSM states you should have 44.1 to 49.7 psi with the key in position II and the same pressure with the car at idle.

[Dragonslayer182]

I had a similar issue recently, try making sure your alternator is good. If it's been squealing for the past few months, it's almost certainly the alternator, but if it hasn't check it anyways.

[kcty]

Well, I'm confused. I towed the car to my shop, so I have full access to work on it now.

Originally, I thought it might be fuel related, but I'm not so sure now. I don't hear the fuel pump priming when I turn the key (before starting), but I do hear it run when I stop cranking the engine. So, I don't think the fuel pump or relay is bad. Additionally, I can't get it to start even with ether. I took the hose going from the air filter to the intake off, and sprayed down in the intake. I thought it would at least fire, even if it didn't run. Nothing. I also verified that the butterfly opened and closed, fully, with the accelerator pedal, and it does.

I also thought it might be the cold (around zero here) and maybe it had water in the fuel line or something. However, my shop is heated and after being in the shop for 24 hours, it seems to make no difference.

Next I looked at spark again. I pulled each plug and checked for spark. Each plug had spark, but the plugs looked like they hadn't ever been changed (160,000 miles), so I changed them. It seems like now the engine will at least attempt to start. It sounds like it's slightly catching, but nothing very close to really starting. But at least it's not just the starter turning it over with no fire at all. It seems like when I first try to start it, I get that little bit of fire, but after 30 seconds of cranking, that seems to go away. I know that battery is good, so I would think it would start, even if the alternator is bad. Would anyone disagree with that? I had the alternator go out on my car (the 07 Yaris) while I was on a 700 mile road trip. I was able to make it to the nearest parts store and changed it in the parking lot. It ran fine (although draining the battery) until I got there. However, I don't know if starting an engine with a bad alternator is a different story. The battery is brand new and strong though.

Anyone have any other thoughts. I'm not sure where to go next. No CEL, I did read the codes and found nothing. I'm thinking about a fuel line pressure test, but if it won't fire on ether, I'm guessing that's not the issue. The other thought is the alternator, but again, I'm not sure, but I'm thinking it would start if the battery is good.

Thanks for you help, everyone!!

[tmontague]

Have you checked compression?

Air, fuel, spark, compression, something is missing.

Did you run the tank out of gas anytime recently? That often causes premature fuel pump failure in these cars

[kcty]

I don't think he ran it out of gas... As I listen more closely, I can hear the fuel pump running when cranking... and it runs a second or so after I stop cranking.

I did just run a compression test and all the cylinders are reading between 60 and 68 PSI. I know the minimum for this car is 156 PSI, so this could be the issue. However, with all of them reading like that, I'm questioning my gauge. I may test it again tomorrow with a different gauge. But low compression would explain why everything else is fine, but it won't start.

I suppose the timing chain could have slipped?

[tmontague]

The timing slipping is rare and virtually unheard of. Compression is for sure way too low but as you said, it could be a faulty gauge. Test another car that you know if healthy or use a different compression tester and re test.

That low of compression could be the reason for the issue

[kcty]

Ok, I tested everything again. I tested the gauge on my Yaris and it read fine. Within acceptable limits. Went back to my son's Yaris and did everything I could think of to give the compression an advantage. I pulled all the plugs, dropped a little oil in the cylinders, removed the intake hose and opened the butterfly before turning it over. Then cranked it for a bit to make sure I had run through several compression cycles. The cylinders all read between 75-80 PSI. That seemed to be the best I could get out of them. I also let it hold the pressure for a bit before releasing it and moving to the next. Each cylinder seemed to hold the pressure fine.

Is, this is telling me the compression is the problem. Any thoughts on how compression could be so low on all the cylinders? At first, I was thinking it must have dropped rapidly, but that may not be the case. It might be that compression has been low on it for a while, it just now dropped below the threshold where the car won't start anymore. I don't know... I don't ever driver that car, so I don't know if it's been acting weak or not.

[tmontague]

a leakdown test will tell you more info as to where the air is going but the piston rings could be shot. However for a failure to happen that abruptly in all 4 cylinders it would point to an oiling issue. Either an oil pump failure or forgetting to do an oil change/run out of oil.

High mileage 1nz's tend to use oil and need to be checked frequently to top up any burned oil My '02 Echo would go through about a quart every few thousand km's and it never burnt it out the tailpipe.

[kcty]

Yeah, I'm afraid it's rings... I'll do a leakdown test on it in the next day or so to see if I can find out where the leak is. Just about any way to look at it, it's not going to be a fun fix.

Thank for you help!

[ex-x-fire]

Spray some carb cleaner down the throttle body, see if you can get it to fire. The compression reading might come up after you get it running. These variable valve timing engines can have low readings at times.
Put a funnel into the fuel filler and listen for the pump, you can even bang on the tank, sometimes that'll get the pump running.

[bob225]

Have you scanned it for historic codes, tried to start it with a spare key ? (if it has an immobilizer)

I would be checking the crank and cam sensors, if it hasn't had regular oil changes the vvt solenoid may have failed and the cam is at full advance

Have a look at some of South Main Auto's videos on YouTube on diagnostic procedure if your unsure

[kcty]

Thanks, everyone! I have tried to start it with ether and couldn't get it going. I can hear the fuel pump running and I can tell gas is getting to the cylinders. I did also try a different key. I don't think it has an immobilizer, but I tried it anyway. I pulled codes from the computer and found nothing. The cam and crank sensors are good ideas, I can look into that. I'm guessing it's been run low on oil. I warn him about that all the time, but I don't think he's paying attention. So, I will also check the vvt solenoid. I've not seen South Main Auto's videos, so I'll check that out. Thank you!

Again, thanks for all the help, everyone. I'll post back if I find anything.

[jra]

If it's getting gas and spark, it should run, unless the gas has a lot of water in it, won't burn. but it does need so much fuel pressure. T a pressure tester in and see if it's enough, could be the injector relay, injectors not spraying fuel? loosen the belt and see if any pulleys are stuck, like the AC or water pump or a idler pulley, can put enough drag on it that it can't quite fire off.

[tmontague]

If the compression is too low it will not start.

An ICE needs fuel, spark, air and impression without one of those it will not start.

Chances are it's been run low on oil, that it crazy low compression and it I across all 4 cylinders