AWD info

[myfirstyota]

Seriously guys. Is this possible?

I have no issues cutting up the floor, making custom parts, or welding them all up after.

I'm looking to turn my lifted blue 2008 hatchback into an awd snow monster.

I know there was a first gen awd, but it doesnt look like those suspension parts will fit.

I'm looking to keep this a manual transmission.

Ether powered by a 1nz or 2zr. I dont want to deal with cable throttles and engine management.

I can only assume a rav4 would be the most practical choice for a rear differential. Its plentiful and easy to get.

I'm gonna have to fabricate a differential mount, which would be pretty straightforward, no sense in going there.

Anyone have any thoughts on rear suspension?

Anyone know if an older rav4 transmission will bolt up to a 1nz or 2zr engine?

All thoughts and opinions welcome.

[myfirstyota]

According to wiki these were the gasoline engines available in the 2000 to 2005 second gen. Rav4

1.8 L 1ZZ-FE I4 (gasoline)
2.0 L 1AZ-FE I4 (gasoline)
2.4 L 2AZ-FE I4 (gasoline)

Looks to me like the transmissions associated with these engines would fit a 2zr-fe, which is a relatively easy swap.

What say?

[CrankyOldMan]

Why not an AWD second gen from Japan? It would be RHD but in theory you can cut the spot welds from the floor pan and Frankenstein it back together. Canada allows 15yo cars without North American safety/emissions to be imported iirc, relatively inexpensive as well.

[CrankyOldMan]

Read your comments on the MCM swap thread and moved my reply here.

The 1st gen RAV4 was based on the 3S engine, not a bolt-on option for the C50/150 family as far as I know. The 2nd gen was ZZ/AZ based, which means compatible bell housings for the C56 and C60 potentially exist for a 1ZZ model, so there's some hope for that tiny part of the swap.

I also agree with the concerns of the AWD Vitz drive train not being able to handle a lot of power since it was engineered around 1.0/1.3 L engines. That said, the brackets and some of the hardware may be interchangeable with the RAV4 running gear, hard to know for sure until you pull the trigger and source some.

[myfirstyota]

Why not an AWD second gen from Japan? It would be RHD but in theory you can cut the spot welds from the floor pan and Frankenstein it back together. Canada allows 15yo cars without North American safety/emissions to be imported iirc, relatively inexpensive as well.

After some quick research I see a couple issues with importing a jdm model.

The first problem I realized is the canadian 15 year old import rule. A 2006 vitz isn't 15 years old yet. Gonna have to wait a year or 2 for that option.

Second problem (for me) is the jdm awd transmission choices. You can get any trans you want as long as it's an automatic cvt. Heartbreaking. I could never drive a cvt and enjoy it. So the trans would be garbage to me or anyone else in north america.

3rd issue is the overall cost to import a car. Sure the car is only $1400cad but theres about $4500 of import fees on top of that. So ballpark 6 grand to import an awd jdm vitz....to Vancouver. I still gotta get that car to Toronto.

Even if I did all that and paid the money, the only parts we figure are useable (for this manual trans awd left hand drive swap) is the floorplan and rear suspension. We all seem in doubt if the rear diff from the 1.3L awd vitz will hold up to a 2zr and my driving style, so I wouldn't want to use the diff either.

If the rav diff and vitz diff have the same spline count, I'd imagine the rear axles could be used though.

So it import an awd vitz I figure I'd get use of the floorplan, rear suspension and axles.

[WeeYari]

Not that it would impact your decision making one bit, but the Gen2 Vitz was introduced as a 2005 model year. Just a but of fyi.

[Leegamer]

Sounds like fitting the second gen Rav4 stuff might be more cost-effective, at least due to availability. Not sure how difficult it would be to adapt the rear suspension and make space for the driveshaft, though.

[myfirstyota]

Not that it would impact your decision making one bit, but the Gen2 Vitz was introduced as a 2005 model year. Just a but of fyi.

I thought I noticed that while searching through all gens of awd jdm vitz. The 2005 jdm models looks like our 2006.

Good info. Thanks WeeYari

[myfirstyota]

Sounds like fitting the second gen Rav4 stuff might be more cost-effective, at least due to availability. Not sure how difficult it would be to adapt the rear suspension and make space for the driveshaft, though.

Yea I'm not sure if adapting the rear suspension from the rav4 is the most practical idea. Pretty sure the rav has an independent rear suspension while the yaris/vitz has a torsion beam.

I may have noticed a possible substitute for the awd vitz rear torsion beam. The yaris axle has no provisions for the rear CV shaft to enter the rear wheel bearing to drive the wheel. Anyone know if a 2000-2005 echo rear axle bolts into the yaris?!? Lol it would appear this axle has room for the cv shaft to enter the wheel bearing.

[Maritime]

What about adapting some bits from an ATV or side by side? they'd be smaller but still robust enough for a Yaris. I know in the Honda world, the CRV AWD system shares parts with 3-4 ATV's. When the U-Joint shits the bed for example you have to buy the whole drive shaft form Honda Auto, but the U-Joint exactly the same can be just bought for the ATV and saves you 8-900 bucks.

to elaborate, If you can get a transmission with a drive shaft for the rear, you can maybe adapt an ATV rear or front end diff with axles and hubs etc. to it.

[Maritime]

Oh and I love this Idea a lot.

[myfirstyota]

You're right, some sort of custom length driveshaft will probably be needed. Theres actually quite a few driveline and bearing shops just to the east of me in oshawa.

I have a strong desire to keep this as oem as possible though. Not necessarily model specific (ie a rav diff in a yaris), but use toyota parts where possible.

It may be naive of me to think, but if everything is installed where it should be (ie correct driveshaft angles and such) I shouldn't have many problems with broken parts. The ravs are apparently just as bulletproof as a yaris. But maybe I think that way cause of my 4"lift kit. Over 20,000km and no issues yet!

And to touch on Honda, I seen a YouTube video where a guy bolted crv rear end bits onto a civic. Kinda pissed me off a bit lol honda guys have it easy. Awd, endless motor setups, big power for cheap and all the support you could ask for. But easy isn't challenging :)

I do think the rear suspension will be the hardest thing to make work.

[Maritime]

You're right, some sort of custom length driveshaft will probably be needed. Theres actually quite a few driveline and bearing shops just to the east of me in oshawa.

I have a strong desire to keep this as oem as possible though. Not necessarily model specific (ie a rav diff in a yaris), but use toyota parts where possible.

It may be naive of me to think, but if everything is installed where it should be (ie correct driveshaft angles and such) I shouldn't have many problems with broken parts. The ravs are apparently just as bulletproof as a yaris. But maybe I think that way cause of my 4"lift kit. Over 20,000km and no issues yet!

And to touch on Honda, I seen a YouTube video where a guy bolted crv rear end bits onto a civic. Kinda pissed me off a bit lol honda guys have it easy. Awd, endless motor setups, big power for cheap and all the support you could ask for. But easy isn't challenging :)

LOL you are correct on Ravs, Had a 1998 that went over 500K with only a few rust issues, I'd still have it if it wasn't written off by shady iunsurance when a lady ran a stop sign and clipped me. As for Honda, I have a Pilot, had a CRV have motorcycles, civics etc. They are easy and bullet proof. My 79 GL1000 had 7 parts that swapped into my 92 civic. when a part works, it works and they use it accross all their platforms.

That said look into Dhaihatsu Hijets (Toyota) they have 4wd systems and manual transmissions etc.

[Maritime]

http://hijet.forumotion.com/t1828-as-requested-the-4wd-system I wonder if the front diff could be used in the back in 4 HI and make the car full time 4wd?

[myfirstyota]

A little more picture surfing and I think my trans assumption is not valid for a 2nd gen. The bellhousing looks nothing like a yaris transmission. There may still be a chance with the first gen rav however. I'll keep looking.

[Maritime]

Wonder if you could swap a whole engine and transmission etc. from a first Gen 4wd 2 door Manual?

[myfirstyota]

http://hijet.forumotion.com/t1828-as-requested-the-4wd-system I wonder if the front diff could be used in the back in 4 HI and make the car full time 4wd?

My only issue with that is can a diff designed for 80 horsepower handle my 2zr with a couple bolt ons?

[Maritime]

From what I've read they can handle a lot more power than given from factory. the components are used in larger engine rigs outside of Japan. the Kei restrictions keep the power down etc but if you look at other non-Kei models in the lineup of toyota, same parts are used, just harder to find than the kei.

[myfirstyota]

Wonder if you could swap a whole engine and transmission etc. from a first Gen 4wd 2 door Manual?

I dont think there was such a beast. All the awd seem to be automatics

[Maritime]

I dont think there was such a beast. All the awd seem to be automatics

there were, my buddy had a 2 door 5 speed AWD, I had a 98 4 door AWD 5 speed. I only say the 2 door because it was a shorter wheelbase so shorter drive shaft etc.

[myfirstyota]

You had a 98 awd echo in canada?
It wasn't imported?

[WeeYari]

I think he's talking about the little Rav that was available back in the day.

[Maritime]

Correct. Rav4's.

[myfirstyota]

Ohhh ok my bad!

The more I look into this the more I realize why "no one" has done it. I think the transmission issue is the biggest hurdle. I cant find a viable option for a manual trans with an output shaft to the rear.

Maritime, you may be right. The whole driveline may need to be swapped from a rav. Engine and all.

But that's not too bad of a thing. The 2005 rav had a 2.4L making 160ish hp and torque. The 2L option making 140ish. If I'm going to go through the trouble of building and entire rear suspension/diff setup, may as well wire up a new engine.

[tmontague]

the other issue you have to think about is many of those older toyota awd system are an unintelligent slip and grip type. Meaning you will obtain virtually no performance benefit from them except accelerating from a stop up to 40km/h. Take it from me, my '05 Vibe awd system is one of those older types. They are great for a grocery getter but lack any type of permance benefit the newer systems have

[Maritime]

the other issue you have to think about is many of those older toyota awd system are an unintelligent slip and grip type. Meaning you will obtain virtually no performance benefit from them except accelerating from a stop up to 40km/h. Take it from me, my '05 Vibe awd system is one of those older types. They are great for a grocery getter but lack any type of permance benefit the newer systems have

The Rav4 systems had a lock button you can use for slow offroad situations or deep snow etc. which you can swap over to the yaris for sure. I know the vibe matrtix didn't have those buttons.

[tmontague]

The Rav4 systems had a lock button you can use for slow offroad situations or deep snow etc. which you can swap over to the yaris for sure. I know the vibe matrtix didn't have those buttons.

Yes which locked the center diff 50/50 but only under 40km/h and with open front and rear differentials they performance addition doesn't do much for performance driving in high speed corners.

The amount of time and money this would take would be better spent with a WRX or sti purchase off the bat IMO

[Leegamer]

It wouldn't necessarily have to be a toyota diff in the rear. You could always get a custom driveshaft made to fit a honda diff

[myfirstyota]

Yes which locked the center diff 50/50 but only under 40km/h and with open front and rear differentials they performance addition doesn't do much for performance driving in high speed corners.

My truck and my old Suzuki grand vitara were both the dumb 4wd type. They're both "unstopable" in the snow.

Would a Subaru or Audi quattro awd system be better for performance year round? Well of course.

Basically, the goal is to take off from a stop, in snow, as easily as my old Suzuki (which had open diffs front and rear), and it doesnt destroy parts, I'd be happy. If I can drive it to work reliably, even better.

Im not looking for year round performance. Im just a gearhead looking to challenge himself and create something one of a kind in the process.

[myfirstyota]

It wouldn't necessarily have to be a toyota diff in the rear. You could always get a custom driveshaft made to fit a honda diff

I actually had thoughts of diffs with lsd options.

[tmontague]

My truck and my old Suzuki grand vitara were both the dumb 4wd type. They're both "unstopable" in the snow.

Would a Subaru or Audi quattro awd system be better for performance year round? Well of course.

Basically, the goal is to take off from a stop, in snow, as easily as my old Suzuki (which had open diffs front and rear), and it doesnt destroy parts, I'd be happy. If I can drive it to work reliably, even better.

Im not looking for year round performance. Im just a gearhead looking to challenge himself and create something one of a kind in the process.

Well then in that case, go nuts, I assumed you wanted this more as a performance project. All the power to you but damn this would be an expensive and ungodly amount of fabricating just for a better get up and go off the line. FWIW my '05 awd Vibe with snow tires does a fantastic job of taking off from a stop in snow but that is where the fun ends. My Subie OTOH is a completely different animal with many more smiles per gallon in the snow.

I wasn't referring to "dumb awd" systems as sub par per say, at least not in the off road, grip department. Hell, most true 4x4's are or were technically "dumb" systems. I meant for the systems that are not true 4x4 but of the awd variety that lack any "smart" sensor input they are pretty much useless for helping at all in cornering performance and even at moderately high speeds. But as you stated above this isn't necessarily what you're after so it doesn't really matter.

I agree that buying the whole driveline from an older model vehicle would be the best bet. You will just need to figure out a safe and sturdy way to mount the system and have it all properly aligned before it is welded in. Then obviously running the engine and trying to somehow have it still connect the the interior creature comforts. You will also be battling with a mechanical throttle vs drive by wire.

This sheds light on why many rather chose the path of making a rav4 handle like a yaris rather than converting a yaris to a rav4 (not specific to those vehicles). It is just simpler to adjust handling and suspension dynamics then a whole driveline.

Either way it would be an adventure!

[CrankyOldMan]

Going in the other direction, I saw a 3DR Mk1 RAV4 with a 3S-GTE swap at a rallycross. Insane hardly begins to describe that thing.

I have similar pipe dreams for making an AWD Mk1 MR2 some day, twin charged like a group B rally car of legend. In theory I can do it with the drivetrain from an AWD Previa but it will be Project Binky levels of fabrication to make it happen.

[Maritime]

Yep the AWD for the lifted Yaris with AT tires is not the same need or want as one for a lowered hot rodded engine rally/track Yaris for sure. If you can score a complete engine and rear end from a first gen 2 door Rav4 with an MT and a ECU you should be able to swap it all over with not too bad of work. I am sure your heater fan controls and all that will wire into the old ecu and a cable throttle should be adaptable from an older Echo maybe.

[Neinris]

Not sure if this helps...

https://youtu.be/WHBB5G3I6gE

[Neinris]

Or get a Yaris Cross???

https://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=829906#post829906

[Turbo verso]

I know that there was a toyota fun cargo 4wd which means its drive train would work with a 1nz, I saw some in Malta, they get Japan Market models, so I'd guess it was available there too. Dont know if a manual was an option or if any of the parts would help you.

[Neinris]

Or do this...

https://vimeo.com/299451522

:tongue:

Cost too much.

[sellis]

I have been thinking that 4 wheel drive and lower gears would be nice. My biggest complaint with the Yaris is it is geared to high. And then adding big tire makes it worse. 2nd gen Rav is my current choice. Full engine and trans swap. looks like it will fit but not committed enough yet to fully investigate. And adaptor to the Yaris motor may also work but the extra torque from the Rav engine would be nice.

Was thinking to just modify the rear beam by welding in trimmed Rav rear hubs. Lower and a little farther back than stock should allow axel to miss springs and will allow stock springs without spacers. And a little more space at the front of rear wheel will be nice. Will loose the spare tire well. Simple beam across to hold diff mounts. Question is how high can the diff set with the gas tank. A solid drive shaft (small) may help... A custom tank with the driveshaft through the middle may work also. I want max ground clearance so don't want it hanging down.

Next issue is keeping the exhaust up. Going to be a problem routing the rear drive and exhaust down the tunnel at front. May need to lower the front beam a bit but would like to avoid that also. Would not be apposed to using some of the passenger floor for exhaust. I don't have to sit there :)

Steering rack will likely need to move some also to allow rear drive which may require modified hubs to keep tie rods level-ish.

Anyway, Not a weekend project but looks like a hell of a lot of fun. Wish I had more spare time... or any spare time :)