Rethinking the Role of the Automobile

[deebrown]

While doing some research I came across a old beaten up pamphlet entitled

Worldwatch Paper 84 - Rethinking the Role of the Automobile

(Worldwatch Institute is an independent, non-profit research organization created to analyze and to focus attention on global problems)

The was published in June, 1988 - 19 years ago - it is highly prophetic at times...I scanned this papergraph which I thought was particularly insightful:


High expectations for GM's Saturn, Ford's Alpha, and Chrysler's Liberty small-car models have not been met, as the companies either reconfigured the cars as bigger models or abandoned plans to put them into production. Indeed, one industry analyst joked that GM's Saturn project was at the "leading edge of old technology." In keeping with Henry Ford II's 1971 dictum that "mini-cars mean mini-profits," General Motors and Ford—and increasingly Chrysler as well—prefer to concentrate on big cars, where profit margins are large. In the small-car segment, all three U.S. companies increasingly rely on "sponsored" imports—marketing cars often designed, engineered, or manufactured abroad. As a result, they could find themselves without a sufficient manufacturing base to meet the demand for smaller cars when it develops again.
In the seventies, the United States held a research lead in advanced fuel efficiency projects such as energy storage systems and the lean-burn engine. But with the advent of the oil glut, the American car companies abandoned fuel economy as a strategic goal. At the same time, U.S. government support for fuel economy R&D was terminated or reduced by the Reagan administration.
Today, the Japanese and Europeans are the pacesetters in the quest for higher fuel efficiency. Toyota and Honda lead the development of lean-burn motors, Japanese firms are most advanced in ceramic engine development, and European firms are strong contenders in energy storage systems.


interestingly enough, it also talks about some high mpg cars that I guess never got off the ground:


The most efficient cars currently available are about twice as efficient as the average new car on the road. At the top of the list is a Japanese model, the Suzuki Sprint, which gets 57 MPG. More advanced prototypes, such as the Peugeot ECO 2000, Volkswagen E80, and Toyota AXV, achieve anywhere from 70 to over 100 MPG; Sweden's Volvo claims its LCP 2000, which contains more lightweight materials than any other car, will achieve a fuel efficiency in excess of 100 MPG without sacrificing performance, size, safety, or emissions criteria. Renault's VESTA scored a stunning 124 MPG in prototype testing.


Remember - this was published in June 1988 - my question is: what the hell has been going on for the past 19 years in terms of fuel standards?!

[churp]

Have you watched the news this week, where GM/Ford/Chrysler are whining about proposed fuel efficiency standards. For some reason they think they'll go broke trying to meet them.....IMO they'll go broke if they don't try.

[deebrown]

From what i've been reading, the Big 3 have known for decades (and at least 19 years, according to that article) what was coming in terms of gas prices going up and they chose to bury their head in the sand - i really don't feel sorry for them at all - it was just poor business practices on their part.

[BailOut]

It's called a conspiracy. The oil companies were in on it. The Big 3 (now the Little 1.75) were in on it. Your government was in on it.

And you've probably been in on it, too, without knowing it.

Every time you've driven a big vehicle you've been in on it. Every time you've mashed the gas pedal you've been in on it. Every time you drove out just to get a meal, or a coffee, or a movie, and did no other errands you've been in on it. Every time you drove to a friend's house just because you were bored you've been in on it. Every time you went to buy a vehicle and didn't even consider its fuel efficiency you've been in on it. Etc., etc., etc.

Don't feel bad, though. I was a part of it for a long time, too. But now I know and do and act better.

So can you. You've already made a good step by purchasing a small vehicle that can be quite fuel efficient with just a few little changes in your driving style.

[foober]

the big boys have been manipulating the unaware public for years. Very possibly the time of tight money and lack of product availability is just around the corner. Its coming someday. But it could happen pretty soon.

[brickhardmeat]

It's called a conspiracy. The oil companies were in on it. The Big 3 (now the Little 1.75) were in on it. Your government was in on it.

And you've probably been in on it, too, without knowing it.

Every time you've driven a big vehicle you've been in on it. Every time you've mashed the gas pedal you've been in on it. Every time you drove out just to get a meal, or a coffee, or a movie, and did no other errands you've been in on it. Every time you drove to a friend's house just because you were bored you've been in on it. Every time you went to buy a vehicle and didn't even consider its fuel efficiency you've been in on it. Etc., etc., etc.

Don't feel bad, though. I was a part of it for a long time, too. But now I know and do and act better.

So can you. You've already made a good step by purchasing a small vehicle that can be quite fuel efficient with just a few little changes in your driving style.

Well, I can't say you don't have a cause.

Jezuz Kriste ----I'm surprised you even own a car. What is you A/C set on in the house? I'm going to assume you probably cook everything over an open flame produced soley by rubbing two sticks together. Please tell me you do not own a TV, you refuse to shop at Wal Mart, you eat absolutly no processed food everything must be "organic" bla, bla , bla:laugh:

[brickhardmeat]

the big boys have been manipulating the unaware public for years. Very possibly the time of tight money and lack of product availability is just around the corner. Its coming someday. But it could happen pretty soon.


better trade your fleet in for a bike

[churp]

It's called a conspiracy. The oil companies were in on it. The Big 3 (now the Little 1.75) were in on it. Your government was in on it......

.

Not a conspiracy...it's called money.

I deleated the paragraphs I wrote cause it ain't worth it!!!

[BailOut]

Well, I can't say you don't have a cause.

Jezuz Kriste ----I'm surprised you even own a car. What is you A/C set on in the house? I'm going to assume you probably cook everything over an open flame produced soley by rubbing two sticks together. Please tell me you do not own a TV, you refuse to shop at Wal Mart, you eat absolutly no processed food everything must be "organic" bla, bla , bla:laugh:

I wish I owned an EV or PHEV, and they're coming. As you know, though, I get around 50 MPG in the Yaris, so it's not so bad for now. It also gets washed at a non-toxic, biodegradable waste, recycling car wash.

When I walk to lunch, which is any day the weather is warm enough, I speak with anyone I find sitting in their vehicle while idling the engine for nothing. I warmly and kindly explain to them about the 20 pounds of CO2 per gallon, keeping Tahoe blue, zero MPG, etc., and they always thank me and turn off their engines.

The AC in the house is set at 78F and is only allowed to run 3 hours per day (1500-1800), and only when the outside temperature gets higher than 90F. We have ultra-efficient windows and I have re-insulated the entire house, even the outlet and light sockets. Despite temperatures up into the mid-90's last weekend I never heard the compressor or fan run for more than half of the allotted time.

Cooking is done over a natural-gas stove that is used as efficiently as possible, or in the solar cooker I built if time allows. The solar cooker gets a lot of use on the weekends, too, as long as the winds aren't too high.

We do own a TV, and it's my one indulgence. It's a 50" plasma I saved up for over a long period. Yes, it sucks a lot of juice, but I balanced it out by swapping every bulb in the house to CFLs, using my laptop 95% of the time instead of my desktop, training the wife to turn off the light when she leaves a room and publishing my electricity audit (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4295) on CleanMPG (which has been stickied). Over the last 6 months we have dropped our electricity and natural gas usage by almost 70%.

My youngest daughter thought our new ultra-efficient instant hot water recirculator was so cool she took it to school for show and tell for Earth Day, and got an A+.

Yes, we refuse to shop at Wal-Mart. It is an evil, exploitative company that has made a dark game of hiding the true cost - and origin - of things.

No, we do not eat processed food, especially no trans fats, no carbonated beverages and no beef (not a processing issue, but to conserve water). We buy organic whenever we can, and "all natural" when we can't. We support our local growers via attending the weekly farmer's markets during the warmer months, and remote farmers via the Fair Trade system in the colder months. Since cleaning up our diet we have all had more energy, less sick - or just icky - days, and clearer skin. My good cholesterol level is back up where it should be and my wife's bad cholesterol level is down where it should be, all without taking a single pill.

I quit smoking last December after 20 years, so that also helped with the energy level and whatnot. The only drawback is that spicy food kicks my butt now, when I used to douse everything in Tabasco sauce.

We also use laundry detergent that has no phosphates and I make my own lawn and garden fertilizers via composting our food, paper and lawn waste. Any paper waste that cannot be used for compost is shredded and bagged for use as shipping/packing padding.

Our HOA demands we keep a nice lawn, so my sprinkler system is dialed in as best as is practically possible. We get by on just 80% of the State's watering recommendations and, despite the front sprinklers running for 20 minutes at a time on the sloped yard, you cannot find more than a few ounces of water runoff on the sidewalks or driveway.

My lawn mower and edger are efficient electrics, and our electricity comes from a local geothermal plant (the greenest electricity there is).

This week's project is a dog poop composter, so that we don't have to send the stuff to the landfill anymore.

Speaking of the landfill, since we recycle and compost so much I only put out the garbage can our service gave us once every month or two.

Speaking of recycling, I started a recycling project at work, too, which ended up encompassing our entire business complex. It captures so much recyclable waste that at first I had to request weekly pick-up instead of the normal bi-weekly. Like often happens with recycling, though, once people actually *see* how much stuff they tear through they naturally and automatically cut back their consumption levels, and in less than 6 months we were back to bi-weekly pickup. I also got us flipped out to CFL's in all of our work spaces, dropping our electricity usage by over 30%.

As soon as the next generation of solar technology streets in another year or two you'll find an array on my house so large that I'll be selling discounted juice to my neighbors as well as nullifying my own bill.

So far this year I have volunteered about 30 hours for things like the Kids for Conservation Festival, SnapShot Day (aquifer measurements and testing), e-recycling and judging the local Elementary School's Science Fair.

I've got my parents-in-law conserving energy, parking their Tahoe in favor of the sedan and recycling more than ever. I have my Brother-in-law getting ready to trade his Silverado on a Prius or HCH (he can't make up his mind). I inspired my best friend back in Texas to buy a Prius 2 weeks ago and am teaching him to hypermile it. I have had about a dozen people follow me to CleanMPG and become hypermilers. I turned my coworkers on to recycling and electricity conservation, so much so that many of them have started recycling at home, and two have flipped out their entire homes to CFLs. Another is looking at trading in his Yukon for a Yaris.


Yes, I talk the talk, and walk the walk. Is there anything else you would like to know about these kinds of things?

[Yaris Revenge]

BailOut = Treehugger! :biggrin:

But that's okay, 'cuz I do some of that stuff also, mostly recycling. One 50 gallon can of actual trash every 2 months, and I bring home a big trash bag of stuff from work every other week to recycle. Those high-efficiency bulbs are awesome, when you do the math. You can run a whole chandelier and still draw less power than a single incandescent bulb!

Heck, somebody's got to do it, right? :wink:

~YR

[brickhardmeat]

I wish I owned an EV or PHEV, and they're coming. As you know, though, I get around 50 MPG in the Yaris, so it's not so bad for now. It also gets washed at a non-toxic, biodegradable waste, recycling car wash.

When I walk to lunch, which is any day the weather is warm enough, I speak with anyone I find sitting in their vehicle while idling the engine for nothing. I warmly and kindly explain to them about the 20 pounds of CO2 per gallon, keeping Tahoe blue, zero MPG, etc., and they always thank me and turn off their engines.

The AC in the house is set at 78F and is only allowed to run 3 hours per day (1500-1800), and only when the outside temperature gets higher than 90F. We have ultra-efficient windows and I have re-insulated the entire house, even the outlet and light sockets. Despite temperatures up into the mid-90's last weekend I never heard the compressor or fan run for more than half of the allotted time.

Cooking is done over a natural-gas stove that is used as efficiently as possible, or in the solar cooker I built if time allows. The solar cooker gets a lot of use on the weekends, too, as long as the winds aren't too high.

We do own a TV, and it's my one indulgence. It's a 50" plasma I saved up for over a long period. Yes, it sucks a lot of juice, but I balanced it out by swapping every bulb in the house to CFLs, using my laptop 95% of the time instead of my desktop, training the wife to turn off the light when she leaves a room and publishing my electricity audit (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4295) on CleanMPG (which has been stickied). Over the last 6 months we have dropped our electricity and natural gas usage by almost 70%.

My youngest daughter thought our new ultra-efficient instant hot water recirculator was so cool she took it to school for show and tell for Earth Day, and got an A+.

Yes, we refuse to shop at Wal-Mart. It is an evil, exploitative company that has made a dark game of hiding the true cost - and origin - of things.

No, we do not eat processed food, especially no trans fats, no carbonated beverages and no beef (not a processing issue, but to conserve water). We buy organic whenever we can, and "all natural" when we can't. We support our local growers via attending the weekly farmer's markets during the warmer months, and remote farmers via the Fair Trade system in the colder months. Since cleaning up our diet we have all had more energy, less sick - or just icky - days, and clearer skin. My good cholesterol level is back up where it should be and my wife's bad cholesterol level is down where it should be, all without taking a single pill.

I quit smoking last December after 20 years, so that also helped with the energy level and whatnot. The only drawback is that spicy food kicks my butt now, when I used to douse everything in Tabasco sauce.

We also use laundry detergent that has no phosphates and I make my own lawn and garden fertilizers via composting our food, paper and lawn waste. Any paper waste that cannot be used for compost is shredded and bagged for use as shipping/packing padding.

Our HOA demands we keep a nice lawn, so my sprinkler system is dialed in as best as is practically possible. We get by on just 80% of the State's watering recommendations and, despite the front sprinklers running for 20 minutes at a time on the sloped yard, you cannot find more than a few ounces of water runoff on the sidewalks or driveway.

My lawn mower and edger are efficient electrics, and our electricity comes from a local geothermal plant (the greenest electricity there is).

This week's project is a dog poop composter, so that we don't have to send the stuff to the landfill anymore.

Speaking of the landfill, since we recycle and compost so much I only put out the garbage can our service gave us once every month or two.

Speaking of recycling, I started a recycling project at work, too, which ended up encompassing our entire business complex. It captures so much recyclable waste that at first I had to request weekly pick-up instead of the normal bi-weekly. Like often happens with recycling, though, once people actually *see* how much stuff they tear through they naturally and automatically cut back their consumption levels, and in less than 6 months we were back to bi-weekly pickup. I also got us flipped out to CFL's in all of our work spaces, dropping our electricity usage by over 30%.

As soon as the next generation of solar technology streets in another year or two you'll find an array on my house so large that I'll be selling discounted juice to my neighbors as well as nullifying my own bill.

So far this year I have volunteered about 30 hours for things like the Kids for Conservation Festival, SnapShot Day (aquifer measurements and testing), e-recycling and judging the local Elementary School's Science Fair.

I've got my parents-in-law conserving energy, parking their Tahoe in favor of the sedan and recycling more than ever. I have my Brother-in-law getting ready to trade his Silverado on a Prius or HCH (he can't make up his mind). I inspired my best friend back in Texas to buy a Prius 2 weeks ago and am teaching him to hypermile it. I have had about a dozen people follow me to CleanMPG and become hypermilers. I turned my coworkers on to recycling and electricity conservation, so much so that many of them have started recycling at home, and two have flipped out their entire homes to CFLs. Another is looking at trading in his Yukon for a Yaris.


Yes, I talk the talk, and walk the walk. Is there anything else you would like to know about these kinds of things?


That's all i wanted to know was do you practice what you preach in most/all aspects of your life. I am one of thos people who will call you out for bullshitting. Sounds like you are taking this to the limit and I commend you for being responsible.

I myself

Don't drink.
Don't smoke.
Don't do drugs.
but I do indulge in some prcossed foods on occasion, I consume supplements and tremendous amounts of caffine, I throw my garbage in the trash and I shop at Wal Mart

I eat fish but I do not eat any other kinds of meat. I recently added fish (in the last year) to my diet after 15 years of strict dieting (no meat). This is a personal decision that is not based on any form of religion and I don't go around telling other people that they shouldn't consume animals.

I workout 5 days a week.

[blacksan]

I like little animals with tartar sauce.

[nsmitchell]

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~murty/planetravel2/planetravel2.html

BailoOut should not read this article, because he may explode.

[palsan]

I wish I owned an EV or PHEV, and they're coming.
Yes, I talk the talk, and walk the walk. Is there anything else you would like to know about these kinds of things?

Bailout,

I'm not trying to pick a fight - in fact I commend you for your efforts.

I'm not convinced that electric vehicles are the answer to energy conservation. You must remember that electricity doesn't just appear - it takes energy to produce it!

In many cases electricity is produced from fossil fuels (the same ones you are trying to conserve by using EV's).

Even where electricity is produced from water movement (hydroelectric) or from the sun/wind (solar panels, wind turbines) etc. energy and resources are required to make the equipment to convert those forms of energy to electricity and to store the electricity to be available when needed.

I'm no engineer but I believe that when you actually add it all up an EV actually uses more energy per mile travelled than an internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicle. I say this not as a statement of fact but based on reading somewhere that the ICE is currently the most efficient way of producing power.

One other point, just because one form of energy is cheaper to buy doesn't necessarily mean that its cheaper to produce. I'm not sure about where you live, but here in Ontario (Canada) electricity is highly subsidized so a comparison between electricity & gasoline to run a vehicle is an apples to oranges comparison. While it may be true that electric vehicles "save" energy for an individual (debatable), its unlikely that the overall impact to the economy/environment is positive.

[Yaris]

In 2003 I swapped out all light bulbs in my new home with CFL's but wasn't doing it for the environment, I was just being a cheapskate.
I now own 2 Edison-base LED bulbs and primarily use them as nightlights. As soon as the price of brighter LED's drop to more affordable levels, I will go on a shopping spree again and upgrade to them.
If I could swap out all primary bulbs in my Yaris for brighter LED's, I would do it today.

[bnther36]

Yes, I talk the talk, and walk the walk. Is there anything else you would like to know about these kinds of things?

:thumbsup:

Despite whatever anyone else may say, I applaud and thank you, Bailout for your efforts for putting forth a personal effort in living responsibly.

[stuffy]

a few years ago i switched every light bulb in my house to cfl's except for my office which has daylight spectrum bulbs due to the small amount of natural light available.

the cfl were supposed to last much longer than a normal incandescent, but i have replaced them all within 2 yrs, while my office bulbs (which are on all day long and sometimes in the evening i might add) are ALL still going strong.

it was kind of annoying when considering the cost of the cfl's.

[BailOut]

In many cases electricity is produced from fossil fuels (the same ones you are trying to conserve by using EV's).
The CARB did some studies on this back in the late 90's and consistently found that even when the electricity is produced using fossil fuels EV's come out greatly cleaner than ICE-based vehicles, not only from the fuel perspective but also from emissions and all of the other fossil-based and consumable items an ICE needs like crankcase oil, transmission fluid (CVTs are generally non-serviceable units), replacement air filters and oil filters, etc.

Even where electricity is produced from water movement (hydroelectric) or from the sun/wind (solar panels, wind turbines) etc. energy and resources are required to make the equipment to convert those forms of energy to electricity and to store the electricity to be available when needed.
This notion is a darling of the Republican party in the U.S. Yes, it does indeed take resources to create things like solar panels or hydroelectric plants. However, internal combustion engines don't grow on trees, oil doesn't take itself out of the ground, refine itself or transport itself, gas stations aren't made from mud and the trucks that haul the fuel all over your country get about 7 MPG.

Allow me to also point out that the primary component of solar cells is silicon, which comes from one of the most mundane, plentiful and easily attainable resources on the planet: sand. The main energy type needed to create the silicates is heat, which normally comes from the burning of natural gas. While natural gas is also a finite resource and takes some dirty work to get it out of the ground and transport it, it at least burns cleanly.

Once a PV cell is created it has a 100% service life of 25 years and a 50% service life of 40 years. A drop of gasoline can only be burned once.

I'm no engineer but I believe that when you actually add it all up an EV actually uses more energy per mile travelled than an internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicle. I say this not as a statement of fact but based on reading somewhere that the ICE is currently the most efficient way of producing power.
I read that same study and it has been picked apart by dozens of sources. It only looked at the ICE's power generation efficiency from the fuel intake forward, not taking into account how the fuel got into the tank to begin with or what happens to the hydrocarbons once they are burned (emissions).

One other point, just because one form of energy is cheaper to buy doesn't necessarily mean that its cheaper to produce. I'm not sure about where you live, but here in Ontario (Canada) electricity is highly subsidized so a comparison between electricity & gasoline to run a vehicle is an apples to oranges comparison. While it may be true that electric vehicles "save" energy for an individual (debatable), its unlikely that the overall impact to the economy/environment is positive.
Where I live power is fully privatized and only lightly regulated, but even if it were subsidized it would still be better than gasoline because you have no idea just how large a subsidization can be until you have taken a close look at the oil industry. How would you like to have the U.S. military on-call to protect your company's assets abroad?

Additionally, it is impossible to cleanly get oil out of the ground, refine it, transport it, etc. but there are many clean ways to produce and transport electricity. What's more is that electricity can be a totally renewable resource while gasoline most certainly is not, and it can be produced on small, local (even individual) scales.

Some say we're already at peak oil, and that correlates with my own research. As such I will definitely be an early adopter of commercialized and supportable EV/PHEV technology.

[BailOut]

a few years ago i switched every light bulb in my house to cfl's except for my office which has daylight spectrum bulbs due to the small amount of natural light available.

the cfl were supposed to last much longer than a normal incandescent, but i have replaced them all within 2 yrs, while my office bulbs (which are on all day long and sometimes in the evening i might add) are ALL still going strong.

it was kind of annoying when considering the cost of the cfl's.
I've heard similar complaints from other Canadians, stuffy. There was some troubleshooting done and what seemed to be the issue was that some Canadian power providers and/or grids have trouble maintaining 60hZ delivery. Many readings were taken as low as 58.9hZ and as high as 61hZ (sorry I don't have a link, but this stuff was burned into my memory because I was learning about electricity at the time).

The ballast inside the base of a CFL is designed to work at exactly 60 oscillations per second (my local grid is 59.9hZ, which is close enough), and counts on it for proper excitation of the photons lining the tube. Anything lower than 60hZ will make the ballast work overtime to try to keep an even excitation of the photons (which stops the flickering), and anything over 60hZ will cause the resistors and gates in the ballast to be pushed past their service limits.

You can see if this is your issue by watching a Kill-A-Watt (http://www.dpbolvw.net/k6115nmvsmu9CBGIJIE9BADFGDCE?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww. thinkgeek.com%2Fgadets%2Felectronic%2F8426) for a few hours while you have its display set to Hz.

[stuffy]

thanks for the info bailout, i was unaware of this (and also almost completely ignorant of how electricity works, lol)

[seriousfun]

Don't forget that in the US, a business can deduct up to $25,000 from their tax as equipment expenses on a vehicle over 6,000 lbs. This is a significant reason why large SUV sales have skyrocketed. It is a regressive tax, benefiting only the wealthy (the poor can't afford big SUVs, except by going into massive amounts of debt).

People perceive large SUVs to be safer than small cars like our Yaris, but they are only safer relative to other behemoths (I'd rather be hit by another Yaris than an Escalade - lucky that when my first Yaris was totalled it was by a tiny Chevy compact pickup). People are delusional, and rationalists.

Some people also drive these to impress - they like how they look in them to other people, and think that they look smarter, handsomer, sexier, wealthier, etc., sittin' high in a Hummer. Large cars served this purpose for half a century, fell out of favor by the early '80s with the first gas crunch, and SUVs simply took the place of long-and-wide Lincolns, Cadillacs, etc., except for those driving $100k+ German cars. We all know that our Yaris isn't bling and isn't a statement of our worth (net worth or how much our mother loves us), but we're certainly making a statement that we are consuming less.

We also show that we have nothing to prove about our d*** size! I guarantee that all those 5'3" guys sitting in Hummers are compensating for something!

[kurokoma-kun]

Don't forget that in the US, a business can deduct up to $25,000 from their tax as equipment expenses on a vehicle over 6,000 lbs. This is a significant reason why large SUV sales have skyrocketed.

I learned about this last year when a friends boss bought his daughter a Hummer as HS graduation present and wrote it off his biz taxes! :mad:

In Tennessee, a vehicle over 10,000 lbs gross weight is exempt from emissions test, one more reason the very biggest big-ass trucks/SUVs are so popular here...

[grampi]

What gets me about all this stuff is there are viable alternatives to fossil fuels available - researchers just need to get busy developing them to the point they become more abundant and affordable than fossil fuels. What are they waiting for? The time to get serious about developing alternatives was 30 years ago when we had our first energy crisis. Had they done so, we'd be driving hydrogen powered vehicles by now. Instead, nothing was done, and now we're in the mess we're in. All I can say is something better get done pretty quick or we'll be living in the stone age again before long!

[seriousfun]

I learned about this last year when a friends boss bought his daughter a Hummer as HS graduation present and wrote it off his biz taxes! :mad:

In Tennessee, a vehicle over 10,000 lbs gross weight is exempt from emissions test, one more reason the very biggest big-ass trucks/SUVs are so popular here...

Good point!

SUVs are not held to the same safety, emissions, and efficiency standards as smaller cars. All these stupid laws stem from a time, before the report cited above, when large vehicles were essentially only for business purposes (except for the occasional Suburban for...suburbanites).

These laws all take advantage of the poor self image and ego problems of so many Americans. These laws are collusion between government, oil companies, and the big auto manufacturers. This is not a free market. These are not the laws of supply and demand in practice.

[brickhardmeat]

Fuck the Stone Age

URANIUM baby!

[blacksan]

Fuck the Stone Age

URANIUM baby!

Nuclear Yaris!:headbang:

[seriousfun]

Fuck the Stone Age

URANIUM baby!

Yes, nuclear, once:

We can elect a president who knows how to pronounce nuclear.

And when we figure out what to do with waste byproducts that remain toxic to us for a half-million years...

[blacksan]

And when we figure out what to do with waste byproducts that remain toxic to us for a half-million years...

The same thing we do with it now.....

[brickhardmeat]

Yes, nuclear, once:

We can elect a president who knows how to pronounce nuclear.

And when we figure out what to do with waste byproducts that remain toxic to us for a half-million years...


Nuclear Waste


At a time when its accumulation is accelerating and no plan for its permanent isolation has been developed anywhere in the world, nuclear waste is an unsolved problem.

Toxic Avenger for President

[Jem_hadar]

this thread is serious business LOL!

[88ShelbyZ]

What I love is how GM is touting there new Volt as the be-all, end-all in high MPG, super efficient LEV vehicles, when they actually produced something just like it, perhaps better, in the mid 90s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EV1

Granted, the EV1 was in no way perfect, it only held a charge for about 30 miles, and topped out at 80mph, but with advances in battery technology, if GM had kept with the EV program, the EV1 or other EV prototypes could be reaching insane levels of efficiency. There was a gap from 2003, when they killed the EV program at GM to 2007, when they showed the Volt concept which could have been spent on development. Hell, GM, and every other American car company, is hemorrhaging money right now, might as well put what they have left to good use.

[seriousfun]

The same thing we do with it now.....

Ahhh...leave it to poison our grandchildren on an unimagineable scale...

[blacksan]

Ahhh...leave it to poison our grandchildren on an unimagineable scale...

It was in sarcastic jest as there is no easy answer and I don't pretend to know the answer. Unlike so many self righteous assholes in the world I readily admit that I am human, make mistakes and hope to do something worthwhile before I leave this earth.

[seriousfun]

I knew you were being sarcastic.

I was stating the truth, to the larger audience.

[churp]

Does anyone honestly feel that an EV/hybrid/hydrogen or much of anything will be produced anytime in the near future, that will be more cost efficient than our Yaris? So far most of the hybrids initial price pretty much cancels energy savings, and money in my pocket is what I'm comparing here.

[blacksan]

Does anyone honestly feel that an EV/hybrid/hydrogen or much of anything will be produced anytime in the near future, that will be more cost efficient than our Yaris? So far most of the hybrids initial price pretty much cancels energy savings, and money in my pocket is what I'm comparing here.

nope, It will take a quarter of a century at the least to see any palpable change. There will be a gradual galvanizing effect of current energy pricing that most people will shine on in a few years. The Eastern Europeans have lived with this for years and it is our turn. I hear folks bitching, but still get passed by people all day long driving 80 like gas is free.

[deebrown]

well, another interesting/humorous aspect is the report also goes on to say that hydrogen fueled cars need to be developed now (1988) because development will take 20 or so years before we would see that technology in vehicles on the road - 20 years later (2008) the government/car companies say the same thing: "we need to start developing hydrogen technology now so we have 20 years from now" - however, as long as gas is relatively cheap, the masses are appeased and no one develops crap...

the report also indicates that the ethanol e-85 cars (which GM and Ford are banking on) will never really be a solution as there is just not enough corn to grow to fill our demand for fuel (and that was back in 1988, from since demand has grown much greater).

[palsan]

Does anyone honestly feel that an EV/hybrid/hydrogen or much of anything will be produced anytime in the near future, that will be more cost efficient than our Yaris? So far most of the hybrids initial price pretty much cancels energy savings, and money in my pocket is what I'm comparing here.

no, no, no, and yes.

We live in a consumer society - bigger/more/fancier/faster is better!!! Larger vehicles are simply a sign of our collective affluence - period. On the one hand it would be nice to see more small vehicles on the road, but its only going to happen if our standard of living drops to the point where we cannot afford them.

Lets be honest, most of us here (Bailout excluded :smile: ) bought a Yaris for financial reasons. If we had more disposable income (or the willingness to go deeper into debt) I bet most would be driving something else .... and certainly fuel efficiency would be near the bottom of the list of features.:bellyroll: For me it would be a Mini Cooper S Convertible for the commute, a Mercedes 280SL for summer :drool: and of course a bigger garage.

Small, fuel efficient, cars will only sell in North America in signigicant numbers when the price of gasoline more than doubles from current levels. But be careful what you wish for - if gasoline were to jump to those levels the economy would tank into a recesion the likes of which we have not seen in a loooooong time. If that were to happen a lot of us would be spending our time on workopolis instead of yaris world :wink: