bag of rocks sound below 2500rpm gone above

[sh0rtlife]

so the bag of rocks sound was gone or atleast very very faint for a long time...the car has always since neer new suffered said sound, toyota at one time while under warrenty said it was the e-brake cable rattling around...and yes the first thing i checked and check often is the exhaust

the sounds gotten ALOT worse over the past week, and can be heard in the car now at pretty much all times below 2500 rpm..above nd al the way to redline the sounds gone...now i wouldnt be terribly worried about it except theres now fine paste shavings in the oil....my guts telling me timeing/vvt...as the sounds comeing from that end...and neer the top..so all things point at the vvt may be failing

the car has been EATING crank position sensors..on swaping the last 2 out they were COVERED in shavings


so im looking for any and all input..car just rolled 190,000 KILOMETERS yes a lil under 120,000 miles..an 07 5dr

[ex-x-fire]

I'd pull the valve cover and look for a bunch of slack. Do you know if it's ever been run low on oil. If it has that can lead to very worn tensioner guides.

[sh0rtlife]

considering since new its ALWAYS used oil between changes id count on it having been run low atleast a few times

[remcafee]

not good if you see metal shavings, pull off the valve cover and check things out

[sh0rtlife]

not good if you see metal shavings, pull off the valve cover and check things out

thats the plan, im shuffling cars n bikes out of the way to get it into the shop tommaro, allready ordered VVT, timing set, and gaskets so im ready

as much as i HATE you tube ive dug thru it for engine clips of bad vvt's and it sure sounds like its a bad vvt...i just hope its not "beyond" the vvt and timing

as care for as my wife put into the car before we got married, its "short trip" useage on an island made for a FILTHY engine in the first 50k miles.....ive seen 200000 mile engines that arnt half as filthy and were beat on

[ex-x-fire]

You might be better off swapping out the engine.

[remcafee]

thats the plan, im shuffling cars n bikes out of the way to get it into the shop tommaro, allready ordered VVT, timing set, and gaskets so im ready

as much as i HATE you tube ive dug thru it for engine clips of bad vvt's and it sure sounds like its a bad vvt...i just hope its not "beyond" the vvt and timing

as care for as my wife put into the car before we got married, its "short trip" useage on an island made for a FILTHY engine in the first 50k miles.....ive seen 200000 mile engines that arnt half as filthy and were beat on

how many miles does that engine have?

[sh0rtlife]

how many miles does that engine have?

110k ish?..190,000 kilometers

[sh0rtlife]

i spent some time chasing down a timings set, seals, and a VVT..then spent time shuffling cars and bikes out of t he way to get the yaris in the shop.....

and boy oh boy am i glad i did..its cold as hell and trying to snow again.

however NO ONE would have guessed what the issue was...in fact as i cracked the engine open, OBVIOUSLY being the very first person to be inside of it since it was built on the assembly line..everything came apart clean and as expected

got the valve cover off and yeah is not exactly clean in there but whats eye catching is that the VVT is a obvious "hot spot" where oil has litteraly cooked to it

so its the VVT right.....WRONG

some time later im fighting with getting the timing cover off and im playing with the flywheel only to hear clattering...hmmmm why..grab the top center of the chain and i can replicate it

once the timing cover was off it still wasnt "obvious"..at first, untill i see a bolt laying just behind where the crank position sensor would be if the cover was on(this is likely why my crank pots have been blowing like crazy).....now this bolt is clean, shiny and HEAVILY worn..a groove cut into it

i inspect further and play with the chain and the entire "front" timing guide is loose..no not loose NOT ATTACHED...that clean bolt..i also found a nice clean washer...BOTH BOLTS ARE MISSING from the chain guide....1 worn and hogged out..the other i assume ill find in the pan..its got ZERO signs of ever having threadlock on it

after pulling the guide out and inspecting it.theres chunks of the guide plastic missing..and..the bottom edge has clearly been being ground off by the chain..this is where my shavings have been coming from..thankfully this has been only in the last 1000 miles or so...so im not expecting to have caused any real damage..and yes im going to diesel flush the oil passages before re-assembly then ill put cheep oil in and do another running flush, ill likely run cheepish oil and do 3000 mile oil changes for a while to hopefully clear things out

pics will come tommaro

[Cletus Garfunkle]

Damn man haha good catch I have never heard of the timing chain guide bolts falling out.
Im guessing its the one without the timing chain tensioner cause of the two bolts. I cant say I've ever seen thread locker on those bolts/put any on myself they just get torqued and left alone.
My only experience it taking apart 4 different 1nz-fe motors all range from 2001-2005 so I cant say anything about an 07 tho.
But good info for my next engine build ill make sure to put some in hahaha.

[sh0rtlife]

so heres pics

had to shuffle out 5 cars, and 12 motorcycles to get the yaris in....
https://i.imgur.com/2zQWuEjl.jpg


filthy right?..this car was maintained at the dealer for the first 5 years..with alot of complaints about rattling noise....which was at one point told its the E-brake cable rattling.....this filth is actualy not from poor maintinance but the fact of living on a small island doing alot of short hop commutes..is the first 70k miles were all done via local comute with the car NEVER stretching its legs..whats especialy noteworthy is the "heat" build up around the VVT unit
https://i.imgur.com/8MPMTldl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/EFskX2Al.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ASXZTw6l.jpg

take a good look..i did NOT unbolt that guide....look at the "flange" its made on the block from bouncing around since NEW..no that is NOT gasket/silicone thats flanged and smashed out aluminum that had to be filed off
https://i.imgur.com/bqLv6rRl.jpg

the bottom of the same guide..again...i have no idea where the bolt is....mpte the mounting post is polished and worn...110k miles of rattling....i suspect that the when i started eating crank pots that the last bolt fell out
https://i.imgur.com/vFTz4Atl.jpg

rake a look at the worn spots in the front cover..this is NOT chain slap..but guide slap
https://i.imgur.com/RhJM6u5l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/R8Z3JRPl.jpg

this is the guide itself pulled out...take a good look at how polished and worn and hogged it is around the bolt holes..in fact they are "oversized" and out of round
https://i.imgur.com/4G3xeCol.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kiJ8kFnl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GdjR0WGl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5V13vGUl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/95nERJGl.jpg

this bolt was found with its washer neerby....under the crank pot...no it is not "wet" in fact its dry and clean..that shine is it simply being worn smooth its chrome polished at this point
https://i.imgur.com/zSjNRBpl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rQB6eegl.jpg

[sh0rtlife]

more pics
note that adjuster..specificly note the staining..this tells the story of how loose things have been and how long...each mark represents various lengths of time and looseness of the chain guide, but more specificaly how long it took for the bolts to fall out...and yes its at maximum travel
https://i.imgur.com/HvcRBwQl.jpg

another look at the smash work the guide did to the head and block..thats not sealant..if you look real close at the bolt holes youll note about 5mm+ of thread is gone..no its not stripped but WORN out..smooth in fact
https://i.imgur.com/q4szAlQl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/TrsW9e9l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rhhr2nOl.jpg


a quick look at the tensioner side guide..all said it looks good untill you make note that chain slap has removed some chunks
https://i.imgur.com/vIc4wJAl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LQa3jVfl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/HTP0Ejql.jpg


this one pisses me off....thats the crank wheel that triggers the crank pot..obviously the bolts did some damage..note the flat smashed spots...its still within spec thankfully....but just
https://i.imgur.com/es3Yg6Kl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wFRz1Rjl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6xrIhiOl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zZUcCzfl.jpg

new chain vs old chain..."by toyota spec if the marks are still on the chain re-use it"......yeah hell no...its a full link stretched, but more importantly look at the deflection stretch..this is an archacic test i use for drit bike chains to see how safe they are..once they can bend 90 degs they are unsafe....both chains are held horizontal letting the far end "bend" over under their own weight
https://i.imgur.com/jhL9wTjl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jgimTQil.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gfIace5l.jpg

cleaned front cover with a better look at the damages
https://i.imgur.com/o9bJOBbl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/lO5g26Dl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/aGDtAP4l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GvVwTWJl.jpg

a last good shot of the upper guide bolt hole...note its not even the right size any more....
https://i.imgur.com/egryO3ml.jpg

[NYC-SE]

That's incredible. Sounds like those bolts were never installed properly at assembly. Shocking for a Japanese car. And yet still it made it 120K like that. Toyota quality. Maybe?

Good luck putting it back together. Let us know how it works out.

[Neinris]

You might want to go ahead and remove the oil pan and check for more debris there, also look in the oil pickup tube.

[sh0rtlife]

You might want to go ahead and remove the oil pan and check for more debris there, also look in the oil pickup tube.

because i didnt want to have an engine brace in my way i have a stand under the engine supporting it on the lift...or the pan would allready be off

i still have to find the other timing guide bolt and washer.......no clue where they are

should also mention if flushed the engine out with a gallon of parts washer to get the shavings and gunk out as much as possible

timing covers on so ill get things bolted up and the pan off and see what kind of nasty comes out...cracked open the old VVT and it basicly dumped fine glitter

[Compeer]

because i didnt want to have an engine brace in my way i have a stand under the engine supporting it on the lift...or the pan would allready be off

i still have to find the other timing guide bolt and washer.......no clue where they are

should also mention if flushed the engine out with a gallon of parts washer to get the shavings and gunk out as much as possible

timing covers on so ill get things bolted up and the pan off and see what kind of nasty comes out...cracked open the old VVT and it basicly dumped fine glitter

get yourself a thread repair kit and you can drill and put thread repair inserts in, Glad its not the bottom end bro thats the main thing all of this stuff is easy compared to having to find a new motor.

I can't believe Toyota never put a stethoscope on the engine to listen for where the rattle was, below 2.5k rpm rattle is a dead giveaway to chain tensioner problems. My mechanic friend who taught me to swing a wrecnh shown me how to use a large screw driver as a stethoscope by placing the handle end agaisnt your ear and the other end agaisnt where ever you think the rattle is and listen while it runs, you can narrow it down a lot before you start. Worth remembing if you have a rattle in the future.

[remcafee]

ill stop you right there, that is not a toyota bolt, something dpesnt make sense, has anyone worked on the motor internally before? that bolt is definitely not factory, theres more to the story here i bet, someone had to of been inside of that engine before

[remcafee]

whats your vin number?

[sh0rtlife]

ill stop you right there, that is not a toyota bolt, something dpesnt make sense, has anyone worked on the motor internally before? that bolt is definitely not factory, theres more to the story here i bet, someone had to of been inside of that engine before

how do you figure its not a toyota bolt?..the lack of captured washer is my bet....and that was found IN THE PAN along with the matching bolt..in neer similar condition except not polished and worn enough to let go of the captured washer..but worn neerly identicly just not bad enough to let go of the washer

also...NO ONE has EVER been in the engine..wife bought it new..it had only been shaken down after coming off the boat and its ALWAYS rattled...and shes been told various excuses as to why....no dealer ever even had it long enough to crack it open...and outside of quick oilchanges no one besides the dealer and me have ever turned a wrench on it....i know its ENTIRE life history

i should ad that this was when the canadian dealers couldnt keep em in stock...she was on a waiting list for ones coming in.....and had 3 choices of what was on the next boat that wasnt pre sold, red auto, white 5spd, or the blue auto....she took the blue auto and recieved it about a few weeks later when it showed up



ill have more pics tommaro...and ill get you the vin..as well as more pics of what came out in the pan and several flushes

[sh0rtlife]

get yourself a thread repair kit and you can drill and put thread repair inserts in, Glad its not the bottom end bro thats the main thing all of this stuff is easy compared to having to find a new motor.

I can't believe Toyota never put a stethoscope on the engine to listen for where the rattle was, below 2.5k rpm rattle is a dead giveaway to chain tensioner problems. My mechanic friend who taught me to swing a wrecnh shown me how to use a large screw driver as a stethoscope by placing the handle end agaisnt your ear and the other end agaisnt where ever you think the rattle is and listen while it runs, you can narrow it down a lot before you start. Worth remembing if you have a rattle in the future.

honestly the rattle was "inconsitent" at best at lower milage...and if you think about a guide being "not tight" and slowly getting looser and looser with milage, but the tensioner is always taking up the slack, its going to present as a vvt sticking a lil on a cold start...in fact thats what ive ALWAYS assumed it was..as it would happen cold but never really did it hot IE when it would have some pressure built up

basicly right up untill the last bolt walked out of the block, between the VVT adjusting for the slack and the adjuster taking up the slack it was holding the "majority" of the rattle at bay...and after that last bolt walked out it pushed the guide into the block, to which the adjuster could still maintain to some extent..it wasnt untill the block got worn and the adjuster both wore down and snapped an end off that the adjuster couldnt compensate and the rattle became a full time deal below 2500rpm...befor e that point the rattle would never last more than a few mins after warm up on the worst days..and would useualy quiet out after a couple second hot..so everything pointed to just a weird VVT or exhaust rattle...hell i steth'd it a few times and deemed it to a minor VVT issue

between the crank pots blowing.....sign 1, then pulling a crank pot with shavings on it(less than 1000 miles) sign 2 and then ratlle constant below 2500rpm sign 3..it was obvious something had let go..but honestly i still figured it was a VVT issue

[sh0rtlife]

next round of pic's....


this my friends is the contents of the oil pan....yeah....
ad you can see theres the other matching bolt with captured washer, as well as some guide chunks..and ALOT more glitter

https://i.imgur.com/h7yrk2Zl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rfxgMgzl.jpg

this shop towel was used as a "strainer" to drain the remaining oil off the pan...note thats all that glitter not just camera sparkle

https://i.imgur.com/TsiVH6Wl.jpg


this is the results of the "drained" pan...a nice BIG chunk of guide...i checked and yet it snapped off ....its not "worn" off the guide its genuinely snapped off, probably chain slap as well as clear shots of shaving content, and guide bits

https://i.imgur.com/n3QAs7pl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2aGX7Hvl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dKrvnDGl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/NBe3JYSl.jpg

yeah its a BIG chunk of steel from the guide

https://i.imgur.com/84lfnIxl.jpg

just touching this stuff leaves ya covered is sparkles LOL

https://i.imgur.com/6QdXENCl.jpg

whats that in the pickup?...more guide chunks

https://i.imgur.com/BsJdxS6l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/mOqBStdl.jpg

more shop towel catchings...this is what came out of the pickup

https://i.imgur.com/Z2l3kNql.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/XVRAAVYl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/iyw0putl.jpg

a "settled" shot of pan crap

https://i.imgur.com/hPd9bO7l.jpg

here we have out matching missing bolt...again polished to a mirror worn and grooved, but has "just" enough base threads to hang onto the captured washer....my assumption is that was the "last" bolt to go based on thread count and lesser damage...it would have had the tensioner helping it maintain


https://i.imgur.com/eQj8bfJl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KIvNDMsl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/V5r34Tyl.jpg

[sh0rtlife]

more?...yes MORE

heres the "wash out" of the pan caught and filtered...some of the bits are pretty big....i do hope the crank/cam bearings are reasonably ok

https://i.imgur.com/fKlU3rjl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2Xu4CNol.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UcP67DGl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/hdyqhgkl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vUKgGYhl.jpg

i figured id can opener the oil filter and see what may have been getting thru...honestly the amount of material found in the valve cover was exceptionaly miniscule so i belive that wix filter was doing a hell of a job ...either that or oil flow was keeping it from "settling" in the head

https://i.imgur.com/gvQKfqcl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/WD3lsVml.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dxGClIxl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gQ4ZmY2l.jpg

heres the pan after a few flushes...not much coming out

https://i.imgur.com/Li2Ecj4l.jpg

[sh0rtlife]

currently ive flushed it out with the same re-filtered oil and engine flush as well as ATF about 6 times, the last time i pulled the pan off the glitter was not enough to worry about but if im going to button it up i want as much floating shit out...ZERO magnetic bits remain to be found...ive hosed the internals with kersosen based parts washer stuff, and hosed the oil pump, pickup and everything i could spray when the pan was off with brake clean..untill nothing came out....all "pieces" are accounted for

ive sprayed out the pickup every 3rd flush when i drop the pan to see if anything shows up and nothing noteable..and minimal shavings...not enough to really worry about...in fact nothing anyone would notice without dropping the pan

tommaro ill be changing the filter again and cutting it open but as of right now i belive its as clean as it can get..regardless ill be putting a round of cheap oil in it again and giving it 1500 miles then doing an oil change and likely re-drop he pan..after that ill go back to the good stuff

wifes shocked..not just by the damage but i had it idling on the lift and shes NEVER heard the car this quiet..except for the first couple weeks after she drove it off the dealers lot

[sh0rtlife]

whats your vin number?


here ya go

https://i.imgur.com/P30AxRDl.jpg

[remcafee]

here ya go

https://i.imgur.com/P30AxRDl.jpg

thats very strange, it shows your car has never been serviced at a dealer and all 3 recalls have not been completed, i was trying to search if there was any delivery issues with it before i twas sold, that woukd tell me right away if the car has been messed with PRIOR to being bought, it happens from time to time
https://www.yarisworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62568&stc=1&d=1678993695

[sh0rtlife]

thats hilarious, i know my wife has records of the dealer service stuff stashed somewhere..maybe in the safe...they would send her a "your car is due for X" or come in for a free oil change etc and she did every thing she got sent

the "airbag" stuff wasnt sent to us till well after the warranty was up...and we were in the middle of legally importing both her and the car to the states so it was laid up for about a year as we had to learn what needed to be done to do it..as well as the fact we had to wait on her greencard etc.....so the bag/snail recall wasnt important

at this point ive replaced the snail with the correct "updated" post recall part, so thats been done..the passenger bag hasnt..nor has the "tire load sticker" which...is laughable

what was the other recall..something that was caught early on something to do with the seat spring?.....i know the dealer did do something with the seat on one of her dealer runs

hell at one time someone broke into the car and the dealer replaced the driver window...and yet you found no record of that even

course being a canadian car maybe the dealer network isnt tied in very well?


ive torn open countless makes and models of engines over the decades and its pretty obvious when an engine has been "previously opened"..unless no sealant was used on anything...but even then useualy slight misalignment of covers will have an oil stained tale tale sign of being opened....on "sealant" engines youll either find scrapes from previous stipping of sealant, pry marks, or mismatched shades of "old vs new" sealant......im 110% positive no ones EVER opened it up..its possible the VC has been off but i doubt even that

would it help if i could provide what dealer did the services?..i know all the dealer stuff is in the glove box along with the manuals n such...

[remcafee]

thats strange, i can access any toyota dealer records, canada i cluded ive done it before but nothing shows up for yours, very weird, depending on how far you want to go, contact toyota and explain to them the issue it has been having and what you found, say the dealer refused to investigtae the problem and now your engine is in need more repairs than what could of happened. thats very frustrating!

[sh0rtlife]

thats strange, i can access any toyota dealer records, canada i cluded ive done it before but nothing shows up for yours, very weird, depending on how far you want to go, contact toyota and explain to them the issue it has been having and what you found, say the dealer refused to investigtae the problem and now your engine is in need more repairs than what could of happened. thats very frustrating!

thats basicly the plan, i mean 110k miles is NOTHING for these engines, but with the damage done..i truely dont expect the bearings to last at this point...time will tell sure, but toyota is clearly at fault....id love to have them comp me an engine, but id be suprised if they even covered expense of the parts i put into it...all said it really needs a crank with the damage the sensor wheel took..and thats a non replaceable part without a full crank swap..and you dont go swaping a crank without replacing all the bearings..at which point you may as well rebuild the entire engine

with the run time ive had on the lift doing flushes not once has it thrown a code at me...nor has it made even the slightest hint of any noises....and its now run for a few hours at about 10-15 mins at a time

took the pan off this morning after letting it sit all night after a full warm up..and what was in the pan was minimal enough...tossed in a old hard drive magnet under the pickup and ran it for 2 more flushes...no metalic bits only a few miniscule aluminum glitter bits....

so ive wiped it all down and sealed it up....pending the sealant curing ill get it off the lift tonight and out tommaro

while i was in there i also swapped the 1.8 rolla TB with zero issue

[sh0rtlife]

ive had it out of the shop for a few hours, runs like a swiss watch, smoother and quieter than it ever has been even under load....quite honestly im shocked at how well it runs now, its not the rattly vibrator it has always been...and the car had about 30k miles on it when i met my wife..so ive personaly known the car since almost new...its NEVER been this good

at 1500 miles im going to do another oilchange and flush..ill also drop the pan again and see if theres any suprises...i left a hard drive magnet in there to catch anything metalic

still tho in the back of my mind im never going to trust how much life is left in ALL of the bearing surfaces as i know shits been circulating for a very very long time

[komichal]

I just want to mention that I am watching this thread with great interest, it has some really nice plot twists...
Thanks sh0rtlife for all the details and pictures, although I am sure I will never dig into the egnine I still appreciate the knowledge I gained, at least theoretically. :)

[sh0rtlife]

I just want to mention that I am watching this thread with great interest, it has some really nice plot twists...
Thanks sh0rtlife for all the details and pictures, although I am sure I will never dig into the egnine I still appreciate the knowledge I gained, at least theoretically. :)

honestly is probably a 1 in a million shot of some guy on the engine assy line simply not torquing the bolts...tho imo theres 2 things toyota SHOULD have done
#1 "full length bolts".....with a neer bottom out full length bolt they can only walk out so far before they will hit the cover..at which point they would have to "wear" thru before they ever failed...and woudl probably make even more noise rattling on teh cover..but it would be OBVIOUS as to what the problem was

#2 thread lock the bolts...a locked thread aint moving

its going to be very stressfull and curious to see how long the bearings hold out after soooooooo much crap has been in the oil...tho honestly with the filter seemingly keeping it all together...i suspect the biggest item to have gotten the extra wear is going to have been the oil pump...tho i did wash a TON of it off the head...tho how much was carried up by the chain?....

the big "tattle tale" tho is that the VVT was FULL of shit...which tells me its all been in the oil system

all said..im beating on it like a rented mule...if its going to act up or show ugly i would much rather have it do it sooner rather than later

and i keep getting tie spin soo..WOOOHOO more power