Aveo = GM = Followers not leaders

[Yarisforpirates]

Is it just me? or does the new Aveo concept look like Chevy just took a Scion xD, slapped on a new front fascia and rebadged it with their logo. I mean dont get me wrong, I love the way which the Japanese style their cars, but i also love the style American cars used to sport. Its like all modern American cars have lost that blend aesthetically pleasing, functionalty, and durability. Not I just noticed this, but don't you ever think enough is enough? Our country's auto makers need to step up their game insted of just copying others.

Aveo concept:http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/aveo.jpg
Scion xD: http://paultan.org/gallery/d/3974-2/04-2008-scion-xd-customized.gif

[bobselectric]

I think the Aveo is more of a Matrix

[PaidTimeOff]

looks like an uglier version of the Mazda Protege5 to me

[Hard Time]

I think the Aveo is made in Korea and according to a reviewers comment "the quality of the car is that you may get a good one or a bad one depending on which day it was made".

[rningonfumes]

Actually, I like the looks, they could fix the ass a bit, but the front is aggressive and bold.

[enviri]

yeah im pretty sure the aveo is a daewoo.

[GeneW]

Our country's auto makers need to step up their game insted of just copying others.

Last I heard the Aveo is made by GM Daewoo.

GM is in a pickle in the US market. They are whipsawed by irrational "management" group think, insane contracts with the UAW and a soft market for the high profit SUVs that allowed them to satisfy both groups.

Gene

[Yarisforpirates]

Last I heard the Aveo is made by GM Daewoo.

GM is in a pickle in the US market. They are whipsawed by irrational "management" group think, insane contracts with the UAW and a soft market for the high profit SUVs that allowed them to satisfy both groups.

Gene

wow! i didnt know that......thats even worse! our country doesnt even make some of the cars it claims as its own!

[bdc87]

Those fender vents are terrible.

[nemelek]

It's hard to tell a lot of cars apart these days.

[bobby]

It's a piece of junk. Terrible resale value. Unsafe, poor handling.

Yuck.

[TLyttle]

Yup, sister-in-law is looking to dump her Aveo, which she lovingly titles, "the POS"...

As far as the UAW is concerned, it would be wise to see why things are so rancorous in the US plants before blaming UAW, or any other union. Management yowls about giving up another raise, or a necessary benefit, but is perfectly happy to gouge another few million out of the company for their incompetent leadership.

I have been worker, I have been management, so I know about lousy workers and lousy managers. Both sides need to talk about their OWN poor performances before pointing fingers at the other side. If top management was limited to 20 times the lowest wage in the plant, only then would progress be made. I ain't holding my breath.

[GeneW]

Yup, sister-in-law is looking to dump her Aveo, which she lovingly titles, "the POS"...

As far as the UAW is concerned, it would be wise to see why things are so rancorous in the US plants before blaming UAW, or any other union. Management yowls about giving up another raise, or a necessary benefit, but is perfectly happy to gouge another few million out of the company for their incompetent leadership.

Hold on, I gave both sides of this argument their due credit. Right? Go up and re-read my post.... in fact I slapped GM management first.

Let's talk about some of the silly things that the UAW demanded, and got, from GM.

1. Guaranteed Benefit Pension - it's like having the Mafia as your silent partner. You had a bad month? Screw you! Pay! You are carrying six or seven retirees for every full time worker? Screw you! Pay!

2. Job Banks - This, I've found out, applies to both salaried and hourly GM workers. Basically you're paid to sit on your ass, read papers and do other things.

3. Full Boat Medical Coverage - GM pays $11 million a year... for Viagra. No shit.

4. Union Content - Not happy to just make cars, the UAW demands that a certain "content" of each car that they make must also be made by Union workers. Come already!

Sorry, any Union that plays these games in a competitive global market deserves what it gets. While the UAW plays these featherbedding games Toyota does the following...

1. Japan has a socialist health system.
2. Retirees from Toyota are given a lump sum payment on retirement.
3. There is no Union at Toyota.

Gene

[bobby]

I thought GM went out of business....:iono:

[Bob_VT]

Well this may be the only car that GM will be able to sell in this price range.

GMAC has STOPPED lending ANY money for car loans. The recent trend was to limit auto loans to credit scores 700 and above WITH a sizable down-payment.

[Bob_VT]

I thought GM went out of business....:iono:

GMAC is shutting down the lending ..... ALL lending.

[GeneW]

If top management was limited to 20 times the lowest wage in the plant, only then would progress be made. I ain't holding my breath.

I don't see any connection between CEO compensation and the performance of a company.

I have yet to see any studies that show CAUSALITY between CEO pay and a company's performance, as in if you go above twenty to one that the company suffers. Exxon-Mobil's CEO makes a huge amount of money and that firm, at least until recently, was doing fine.

I don't think that Toyota's CEO is paid hundreds of times more money than their janitorial staff. Most Japanese firms have far more modest CEO compensation than US firms.

However that ratio doesn't begin to show the differences from Toyota and, say, GM or Exxon-Mobil.

What does seem to matter is the ability of a company to respond to market demands and to satisfy consumer needs.

Toyota focuses on the market and consumer needs, from the CEO down to the lowliest worker. When gas prices went high this summer they were able to re-tool a line in THREE WEEKS to make smaller cars.

Could GM do this? Dunno.

One does wonder what GM focuses on. There are probably staff at GM, both hourly and salaried, who care very much about customers. I suspect, given how GM has been doing and the kind of stuff that they sell (I was a Chevy and Pontiac guy until my first Honda in 2000) that there is a lot more at work here than CEO compensation. Especially a toxic sense of complacency amongst management and workers.


Mentioning such ratios tend to inflame envy and anger, especially in workers who think "Management is stealing our money!". Such an entitlement mentality does not serve the customer or even the worker's long term interests.

This all being said, I wouldn't object to a CEO making 100 times more than the Janitor, but if I were a shareholder they damn well better be earning their keep.

I think most of here would agree that the CEO of GM isn't earning their money.

Gene

[bobby]

I would NEVER buy an American-made car, (too junky!) and I suspect most people reading this would not either....

[talnlnky]

Is it just me? or does the new Aveo concept look like Chevy just took a Scion xD, slapped on a new front fascia and rebadged it with their logo. I mean dont get me wrong, I love the way which the Japanese style their cars, but i also love the style American cars used to sport. Its like all modern American cars have lost that blend aesthetically pleasing, functionalty, and durability. Not I just noticed this, but don't you ever think enough is enough? Our country's auto makers need to step up their game insted of just copying others.

Aveo concept:http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/aveo.jpg
Scion xD: http://paultan.org/gallery/d/3974-2/04-2008-scion-xd-customized.gif

What are you thinking?

The new Aveo looks more like as mentioned above (a matrix), or maybe even a fit... and that new toyota/scion think looks like an HHR that got a few inches removed from the top half of the car.

[talnlnky]

I don't see any connection between CEO compensation and the performance of a company.

I have yet to see any studies that show CAUSALITY between CEO pay and a company's performance, as in if you go above twenty to one that the company suffers. Exxon-Mobil's CEO makes a huge amount of money and that firm, at least until recently, was doing fine.

I don't think that Toyota's CEO is paid hundreds of times more money than their janitorial staff. Most Japanese firms have far more modest CEO compensation than US firms.

However that ratio doesn't begin to show the differences from Toyota and, say, GM or Exxon-Mobil.

What does seem to matter is the ability of a company to respond to market demands and to satisfy consumer needs.

Toyota focuses on the market and consumer needs, from the CEO down to the lowliest worker. When gas prices went high this summer they were able to re-tool a line in THREE WEEKS to make smaller cars.

Could GM do this? Dunno.

One does wonder what GM focuses on. There are probably staff at GM, both hourly and salaried, who care very much about customers. I suspect, given how GM has been doing and the kind of stuff that they sell (I was a Chevy and Pontiac guy until my first Honda in 2000) that there is a lot more at work here than CEO compensation. Especially a toxic sense of complacency amongst management and workers.


Mentioning such ratios tend to inflame envy and anger, especially in workers who think "Management is stealing our money!". Such an entitlement mentality does not serve the customer or even the worker's long term interests.

This all being said, I wouldn't object to a CEO making 100 times more than the Janitor, but if I were a shareholder they damn well better be earning their keep.

I think most of here would agree that the CEO of GM isn't earning their money.

Gene

So.... america is all about capitalism... and in a capitalistic society... Those CEO's and high ranking officers in those american car company's...

1: Should not be in their current position because they have not proven that they can run a company with performance on par with the rest of the auto market.

2: should be paid much less than they are, because the salaries they earn are for high quality, highly effective CEO's and officers.

[GeneW]

So.... america is all about capitalism... and in a capitalistic society... Those CEO's and high ranking officers in those american car company's...

1: Should not be in their current position because they have not proven that they can run a company with performance on par with the rest of the auto market.

2: should be paid much less than they are, because the salaries they earn are for high quality, highly effective CEO's and officers.

Okay, fine, I agree.

Here's my question in reply - whose business is it if the CEO of GM makes 100 or a 1,000 times more than the contract janitors who clean the offices each day? Don't the shareholders of GM, the real owners, have that say?

If you're gonna say that it's about capitalism you cannot dictate salaries, especially the Government.

Besides, America isn't about capitalism. The recent Bank Bail Out is proof of that. We're about Lawyer Capitalism, as Buckminster Fuller put it so well. By that he meant that Corporations entrench themselves into a market and then use the power of Law to keep competitors down or out.

If GM could have stopped Toyota in its tracks like they did Preston Tucker there would be no Yaris. Instead Toyota keeps on knocking them out of the park - except for the oil sludge issue in some motors - and GM is now in second place and fading. The real capitalism, flawed as it is, is in the International Market. For now.

Gene

[Tamago]

Hold on, I gave both sides of this argument their due credit. Right? Go up and re-read my post.... in fact I slapped GM management first.

Let's talk about some of the silly things that the UAW demanded, and got, from GM.

1. Guaranteed Benefit Pension - it's like having the Mafia as your silent partner. You had a bad month? Screw you! Pay! You are carrying six or seven retirees for every full time worker? Screw you! Pay!

2. Job Banks - This, I've found out, applies to both salaried and hourly GM workers. Basically you're paid to sit on your ass, read papers and do other things.

3. Full Boat Medical Coverage - GM pays $11 million a year... for Viagra. No shit.

4. Union Content - Not happy to just make cars, the UAW demands that a certain "content" of each car that they make must also be made by Union workers. Come already!

Sorry, any Union that plays these games in a competitive global market deserves what it gets. While the UAW plays these featherbedding games Toyota does the following...

1. Japan has a socialist health system.
2. Retirees from Toyota are given a lump sum payment on retirement.
3. There is no Union at Toyota.

Gene

don't forget toyota's slave labor..

[engelm_]

Aveo FTL..... Side vents... (puke)

[bobby]

My MOUNTAIN BIKE has better resale value than an Aveo!

[rningonfumes]

Back up your slave labor comment.

[TLyttle]

No shouting match intended here, my point is that it happens for both management and union, and it will eventually lead to the demise of the US (and Canadian) auto manufacture. If the union wasn't watching management come to work in Jaguars etc, they wouldn't fight for the crap that management gets in their contracts. Either way, the US auto industry loses.

IMHO, any and every civilised country should have a "socialist" health system. We are all human beings.

Lump sum payments or monthly, a retiree MUST be recognised for his service to the company, no flaw there as I see it.

Lastly, unions would disappear completely if management was fair. My company was approached a few times by unions to unionise it. Each one of them left without success, simply because they had nothing to offer our guys that they didn't have already: we looked on that as "good management". OTOH, I have spoken to managers (worked for a few) whose attitude towards workers had to do with contempt, purre and simple. The bigger the company, the less likely one is to find compassionate, intelligent management. I know what it takes to keep employees, and the US system fails to recognise it. Most Japanese companies do.

[Reddog99]

Let's talk about some of the silly things that the UAW demanded, and got, from GM. I'd blame management for these silly things. The union has been just as irresponsible, but in the end analysis, management is to blame. They're robbing the company even more.

[Tamago]

Back up your slave labor comment.

http://gnn.tv/threads/31928/Good_ol_slave_labor_helping_you_go_green

In 2002, Kenichi Uchino, 30, died while working at the “green” Tsutsumi plant that assembles the Prius. During the 13th hour of a routine 14-hour day, Uchino collapsed on the shop floor of the internationally lauded “sustainable” factory, which uses sulfur-oxide-eating paint and boasts 5 percent emissions reductions. A Japanese court ruled that Uchino’s death was caused by exhaustion from overwork.

[tuckevalastin]

I would NEVER buy an American-made car, (too junky!) and I suspect most people reading this would not either....



I assume by American-made you mean made by one of the American car companies since the Aveo is made in Korea and the Matrix is made in the US....

And if you do mean made by an American car company well then I would LOVE to buy more than a few American-made cars

[GeneW]

don't forget toyota's slave labor..

All of the folks I've talked to who knew folks who worked for Toyota said that competition to work there was fierce and that they were quite proud to work for Toyota.

If you plan to complain about "Karoshi" let me remind you that MANY OF US out here work long hours to satisfy our customers. I put twelve hours of OT in last week, probably that many this week. You gotta do what you gotta do.

Gene

[Nigal]

I think the Aveo is more of a Matrix

+1

I actually like it. Looks good.

[GeneW]

I assume by American-made you mean made by one of the American car companies since the Aveo is made in Korea and the Matrix is made in the US....

And if you do mean made by an American car company well then I would LOVE to buy more than a few American-made cars

Not to be a pedantic pain the butt, but the Matrix/Vibe is partially made in the US. The subcomponents are all Toyota and are mostly "globally sourced".

I know this because my employer offers a discount for cars made by their customers. The Unified Plant in Fremont happens to be one of the few places in the US where my employer does not supply subcomponents and hence I would not get a discount.

Gene

[bobby]

I assume by American-made you mean made by one of the American car companies since the Aveo is made in Korea and the Matrix is made in the US....

And if you do mean made by an American car company well then I would LOVE to buy more than a few American-made cars


I guess I should clarify: I only want to buy cars that are made/designed in Japan. I only want to buy cars made by Toyota, Honda, Lexus (in my dreams!)

The fact that GM feels comfortable to put their badge on the Aveo, (complete piece of junk, reminds me of a modern-day Chevette) makes me want to RUN from ever buying anything from GM. Why would they want the Chevy name on such a junky car??

BUY JAPANESE! BUY JAPANESE! BUY JAPANESE!

[thebarber]

vibe is made in cali, the matrix in canada, camry in the US, rav4 in canada

i had a matrix xrs...i was only going to buy a car MADE in japan...hence the yaris

so much hate for US manufacturers....wow, but this IS a forum for the toyota yaris - - so its really not TOO odd to see hate for anything but a toyota.

we've got an aveo and a yaris in the driveway...both run fine. the aveo isnt as good on gas, and ya, the resale sucks.....but its paid-off, so its not going anywhere anytime soon....unless we start having major problems with it....

[bobby]

Just curious, why did you buy the Aveo? Maybe I missed it, but I have never read a good review on that car. I'm always curious what motivates people to buy cars which are so resoundingly panned by car magazines, on-line auto reviews, and Consumer Reports. The Cobalt and the Pontiac G5 are too pretty awful cars which come to mind.

Why do people buy them??

[thebarber]

Just curious, why did you buy the Aveo? Maybe I missed it, but I have never read a good review on that car. I'm always curious what motivates people to buy cars which are so resoundingly panned by car magazines, on-line auto reviews, and Consumer Reports. The Cobalt and the Pontiac G5 are too pretty awful cars which come to mind.

Why do people buy them??

GM employee discount, mainly. my wife bought it for her mom, originally...but she no longer needed it, so we took it back. its a good little car, imo. havent had any real problems with it at all. interior isnt quite as nice as the yaris, but i like the seats better. would we buy another one? not w/ the old e-tec, thats for sure.....and i really dont like the looks of the new aveo, either. but would i buy an 09 yaris?....negative. equally as ug.

[Thirty-Nine]

Why do people buy them??

Aveos are inexpensive cars with warranty. Some people (and no, I'm not talking about thebarber), also see the "bowtie" and automatically think "American." Yes, the profits do go to Chevrolet. Keep in mind GM owns 50% of Daewoo.

The Aveo at least puts GM in the small car game. A leader? Nope. However, Chevy sells a decent amount of the little Aveo.

[thebarber]

Aveos are inexpensive cars with warranty. Some people (and no, I'm not talking about thebarber), also see the "bowtie" and automatically think "American." Yes, the profits do go to Chevrolet. Keep in mind GM owns 50% of Daewoo.

The Aveo at least puts GM in the small car game. A leader? Nope. However, Chevy sells a decent amount of the little Aveo.

at least GM is tryin....*cough*chrysler*cough*

[bobby]

GM mostly sells the Aveo to rental fleets. Employee discounts aside, I think most people who plunk down hard-earned moolah on an Aveo are a pretty unsophisticated (automotively, speaking) bunch. Think about it...you are spending your money on a car which does not handle well, has no power, gets (at best) mediocre gas mileage, has done poorly in crash tests, has LOUSY resale value, and people giggle about you behind your back. (Could anybody read the reviews on the Aveo, and do a lil' online research and STILL decide to buy an Aveo? Really?) Worse yet, if you finance the car you can add INTEREST charges to the total cost of the car which has little value after you've finished paying off the loan!

The Aveo is certainly an investment! A bad one.

I'd advise somebody to buy a basic Yaris or even an Accent before I'd ever advise somebody to buy an Aveo.

[tuckevalastin]

GM mostly sells the Aveo to rental fleets. Employee discounts aside, I think most people who plunk down hard-earned moolah on an Aveo are a pretty unsophisticated (automotively, speaking) bunch. Think about it...you are spending your money on a car which does not handle well, has no power, gets (at best) mediocre gas mileage, has done poorly in crash tests, has LOUSY resale value, and people giggle about you behind your back. (Could anybody read the reviews on the Aveo, and do a lil' online research and STILL decide to buy an Aveo? Really?) Worse yet, if you finance the car you can add INTEREST charges to the total cost of the car which has little value after you've finished paying off the loan!

The Aveo is certainly an investment! A bad one.

I'd advise somebody to buy a basic Yaris or even an Accent before I'd ever advise somebody to buy an Aveo.


I hope you know that is what everyone that isn't a Yaris owner says about the Yaris..

[Tamago]

I hope you know that is what everyone that isn't a Yaris owner says about the Yaris..

scion xA is even worse... at least the yaris is a "trendy" car because of gas mileage.. the xA has been hated even by toyota since its debut on US soil.

[GeneW]

No shouting match intended here, my point is that it happens for both management and union, and it will eventually lead to the demise of the US (and Canadian) auto manufacture. If the union wasn't watching management come to work in Jaguars etc, they wouldn't fight for the crap that management gets in their contracts.

Apparently you've never been in a Union or barring that weren't out of one long enough to realize their "rap".

Unions thrive on discontent, and if there is none some will be provided. One Union, I believe the IBEW, used to distribute a book called the "Troublemaker's Guide". Literally a Bible on how to stoke discontent, hobble production and create the kind of antagonism needed to entrench a Union.

During a recent "organization attempt" where I work the biggest malcontents were the union boosters. They figured once the union got in they would get "super seniority" since they would run for union president.


The "Management Arriving in Jaguars" is a red herring, more so since at GM you are strongly discouraged from buying other maker's wares.


IMHO, any and every civilised country should have a "socialist" health system. We are all human beings.

In that case, since we "need Health Care" why not provide every American with guaranteed housing and three meals a day? Add to this guaranteed Veterinary Care and we're treating American citizens like livestock.


Seriously... I worked in kidney dialysis in the US. I've seen the Promised Land. Kidney Dialysis is a human right in the US. Nobody, whether they have a million in the bank or don't have a pot to piss in, get their turn.

The patients sit at most a few feet from one another. They are packed in like sardines most of the time. Since the dialysis machines are computer controlled you cannot use cell phones or computers.

Watch TV, maybe read a book, or lay there. You may not sleep since you could die under treatment.

Ventilation tends to be poor because ambient temps are important to keep the machines warm and the patients stable. So if someone shits themselves you will smell it. Someone dies you will see it. If someone starts to rant, and most clinics have at least one "screamer" you will hear it.

You will see the doctor at most twice a week, for a few minutes. Clinics are required to have a dietitian and social worker. In one clinic where I worked the Social Worker was written up for counseling patients - he was rejoined that his job was to push government services onto the patients, not be there to counsel them.

What used to get me slapping my knees with amusement was the dietitian advising patients to "put another streak on the grill" in order to increase their protein (the machines rip that out of you). Nobody told the poor thing that most kidney dialysis patients do not work (it's an instant SSI check) and most cannot afford steak on a daily basis.

DOQI guidelines requires "holds" on Epoetin Alpha to keep the hematocrit below normal. This is to ensure a minimal destruction of red blood cells. Forget any strenuous activity, you can't handle it. I've watched patients argue with nurses over such holds, which must be enforced since the clinic won't get reimbursed for the EPO if they go above DOQI guidelines.

EPO costs ninety bucks a dose. The courts have ruled that the company that makes it, AMgen, has a defacto monopoly in the US. Transkaryotics, which makes a version of epoetin alpha, did not have Amgen's lawyers.

You are limited to 32 ounces of fluid per day, including your food. This low intake is to balance out the fluids. You will ALWAYS be thirsty. If you "fluid abuse" you will be "pulled on" with the machine and will cramp. The cramps are excruciatingly painful.

You can't even die with dignity. When you "code" you'll be ripped out of your chair, tossed on the floor and "worked" right in front of everyone.

I live in horror of such a "system" on a nationwide basis.


To really get me raging, ask me about my trevails in getting a new kind of data base to analyze trends of dialyser use. In order to use it I had to obtain an FDA 503c certificate, which I could not afford. I also would have had to obtain liability insurance, which I also could not afford.

There is a reason that US medical services are so expensive - grotesque bureaucracy and Tort Lottery. Putting things onto Big Brother's billfold will not change these realities.


The vast majority of Americans have health insurance. Most of us are happy with it. Most of us rely upon it. Most of us don't want to exchange it for the equivalent of a shoddy, USSR type of medical service.

I also reject the notion that government provided health services are a "human right" and are "moral". What is immoral are the compromises that the American people accept, especially the Rent Seeking by Doctors, Lawyers and other "professionals" atop an FDA which is geared more towards Risk Aversion than Progress and growth of knowledge.

Lump sum payments or monthly, a retiree MUST be recognised for his service to the company, no flaw there as I see it.

My recognition comes to the bank twice a month. If I can't make that count what will a lump sum payment or pension do for me? Especially if I... retire. The horror!

Lastly, unions would disappear completely if management was fair. My company was approached a few times by unions to unionise it. Each one of them left without success, simply because they had nothing to offer our guys that they didn't have already: we looked on that as "good management".

We had an attempted Organization where I work. The vote was 25 percent for and 75 percent against. The management where I work are at times clueless and arrogant, that's their prerogative, they have to live with the consequences.

People voted against the Union not for the management.

OTOH, I have spoken to managers (worked for a few) whose attitude towards workers had to do with contempt, purre and simple.

Attitude isn't as relevant as deeds. I've met workers who felt that managers were clueless, stupid, out of touch, and even "lacked souls". That did not affect their work, just how they related to managers.

The bigger the company, the less likely one is to find compassionate, intelligent management. I know what it takes to keep employees, and the US system fails to recognise it.

The "US System" is so diverse and varied that one cannot make such a generalization. One the most horrible places I ever worked was a fifty employee company. One of the best was a Fortune 10 company.

Most Japanese companies do.

Go look up "Karoshi". Loyalty works both ways.

Gene

[GeneW]

I hope you know that is what everyone that isn't a Yaris owner says about the Yaris..

"Everyone"? No. A few? Probably.

I'm learning that it's not the size of the car but the spirit of the car and the skills and spirit of the driver.

Gene

[tuckevalastin]

A lot more than a few....

[bobby]

I hope you know that is what everyone that isn't a Yaris owner says about the Yaris..

I don't agree. The Yaris gets great gas mileage, has Toyota's reputation for reliability (in fact, Consumer Reports rats the Yaris as "81% more reliable than average") and has high resale value. If people equate the Yaris in the same way as the Aveo....well, they're just dumb. :frown:

[tuckevalastin]

as I said, that isn't a Yaris owner... to everyone else its just a cheap car

[mimelio]

Daewoo Lanos renamed and restyled...That is all the Chevrolet Aveo is.

[Thirty-Nine]

Daewoo Lanos renamed and restyled...That is all the Chevrolet Aveo is.

No, Daewoo Kalos (which we didn't get in the U.S.).

And by the way, what's with the "poor crash test ratings" people keep talking about?

The 2007 Aveo 5 got a five-star frontal crash rating (driver and passenger) and a four-star rating for side-impact crashes. (See here (http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/safercar/menuitem.94b0130be143aeb342252f0835a67789/?vgnextoid=68adf2905bf54110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCR D))

It also received and "Average" from the IIHS (www.iihs.org) for frontal offset crash.

So, it looks like one thing the Aveo does have going for it is good crash test ratings.

[TLyttle]

I'm sure that there is no point in trying to debate Gene W. here regarding either unions or health care; clearly his experiences supersede mine, regardless of what mine may be. Suffice to day that as a long-time Steelworker, the only real difficulties I had with the shops I worked in had to do with Management who would not listen to the workers in the shop. During my career (retired now) I was able to tell how long a company would last simply be watching Management's attitudes, union or non-union. Normally, well-run companies did not require unions.

I, too, have seen the US medical system, and indeed the experience of dialysis, as described, sounds barbaric, yet I have heard of no such barbarism here in Canada. I worked with handicapped children in a Government facility, and the concentration was on the health and progress of the children, rather than budgets, managerial paperwork, or (!) profits. There is NO PLACE for profit in a medical system; making money off the disadvantaged is a blasphemy of the worst type IMHO.

I did meet a vet in the US who had a trunkful of medical equipment that he had to buy, then take to the hospital so that he wouldn't have to buy the stuff again from his pension money. Another blasphemy in my mind.

I saw my first Japanese-built car in 1962 or so, at an auto show. I knew right then that the US auto industry was in trouble, not because the car was inexpensive, or even offered good performance. The workmanship was superb, the innovations outstanding; better than anything out there on the floor, American or European. In my opinion, very little has changed since then, and all the anecdotes here on the Yaris site kinda prove that.

[GeneW]

I'm sure that there is no point in trying to debate Gene W. here regarding either unions or health care; clearly his experiences supersede mine, regardless of what mine may be.

One of the things I'm really good at is sarcasm. Want to play?

Suffice to day that as a long-time Steelworker, the only real difficulties I had with the shops I worked in had to do with Management who would not listen to the workers in the shop. During my career (retired now) I was able to tell how long a company would last simply be watching Management's attitudes, union or non-union. Normally, well-run companies did not require unions.

Guess so.

I, too, have seen the US medical system, and indeed the experience of dialysis, as described, sounds barbaric, yet I have heard of no such barbarism here in Canada.

The second highest per capita casualties from SARS occurred in Canada. The Government packed 'em in Wards like sardines, where they died in larger numbers than anywhere else except China.

Canada also has a heavy budget deficit due to their "health care".

The high budget deficit occurs in spite of a system which is not infested with money hungry attorneys who sue people right and left, an FDA which makes risk aversion its highest goal and I imagine that the Canadian public doesn't seem to think it has a constitutional right to abuse their bodies and then get them "repaired" with cost being no option.



I worked with handicapped children in a Government facility, and the concentration was on the health and progress of the children, rather than budgets, managerial paperwork, or (!) profits.

I worked in a "not for profit" dialysis facility in the US for three years. Instead of being rated upon how effective we were the "management" rated us upon how the politically selected hack who "managed" the place felt about us. One day I was hauled into the office because one of her pets shoved me out of the way to do something and I got upset.

She said to me, "Well, reality is perception".

This same paragon of logic fired one of my colleagues for reporting that an RN was lighting candles in her office. When a Government agency reacted she said, "Yeah, I fired him for being a whistleblower". In the US this is illegal, so she had to offer my former colleague his job back. All he wanted was to have his termination retracted, which they did.

I don't want to hear about the glories of non-profit organizations. Been there, done that, did not get a t-shirt.


I saw my first Japanese-built car in 1962 or so, at an auto show. I knew right then that the US auto industry was in trouble, not because the car was inexpensive, or even offered good performance. The workmanship was superb, the innovations outstanding; better than anything out there on the floor, American or European. In my opinion, very little has changed since then, and all the anecdotes here on the Yaris site kinda prove that.

Anyone who has read about the story of Preston Tucker realizes that US industry has been in trouble since the 1950s.

Gene

[GeneW]

There is NO PLACE for profit in a medical system

Patent non-sense. If there is no profit there is no interest. If there is no interest there is no incentive to invest and furnish capital.

In which case you're at the mercy of bureaucrats, saints and do-gooders to get the money you need to buy supplies, train and weather the slow times.

Bureaucrats are in it for their own security and careers. There are damn few saints around these days. Do-gooders have this distressing tendency to stick to you and never go away - they end up costing you more than a business person, who makes their profit and then leaves you.

making money off the disadvantaged is a blasphemy of the worst type IMHO.

Blasphemy is a religious term. Profit is good. Taking advantage of people is not good. You can do the first without doing the second, it's being done every day all over the world.

I might add, and I think this is important, that giving people things that they ought to get for themselves, is not helping them. You weaken them, make them dependent upon you, and in doing so you impoverish them. Worst of all, you empower "do-gooders" who then lay claim to the wealth of others and abuse their power because they are full of their own goodness.

We've seen what happens when do-gooders run things. Behind every evil person who slaughtered millions of people in the 20th century was a set of good intentions. The communists wanted to end the exploitation of man by man. The fascists wanted to regain national glory and give people a sense of their own worth. Both laid waste to nations, murdered millions of people and risked destroying the whole human race.

Give me someone who wants to make a profit. They're honest and their aims are limited to their own interests. Provided that they do not hijack the State they're far more honorable than any do-gooder.

Gene

[TLyttle]

My, you ARE a curmudgeon, ain't ya? No point in being your straw man here, Gene, I learned my values, you learned yours...

[GeneW]

My, you ARE a curmudgeon, ain't ya? No point in being your straw man here,

I wasn't the one who called taking a profit in medical services "Blasphemy". Perhaps you need to take a step back and examine why such incendiary language was called for here?

I learned my values, you learned yours...

The limits of relativism end when someone points a gun at someone else. Whether this is done as a private sector transaction or under the color of Law is a germane point.

Gene

[bobby]

The Aveo is junky. :thumbdown: