SS Brake Line + Brake Pad + Rotor Installed~

[Loren]

Originally Posted by Brian

What about just slotted rotors as oppossed to cross drilled and slotted? Any difference there?

Not as likely to crack, but no real benefit. Again, trying to address the outgassing issue that modern brake pads don't have. They do tend to act as a cheese grater and wear your pads quicker, though.

[Loren]

Originally Posted by Kongo-Otto

Porsche brake discs are not drilled. If i only knew the word in english. The holes are made different, they are part of the production progress but not drilled later.

Correct, the holes are cast into the brake rotor at the time of manufacture.

[AlainMikli]

Originally Posted by Brian

I'm still wondering why the goodridge lines only go half way instead of all the way to
the drum and if it makes any difference.

If you see the metal line after the rear SS line, you'll know why they didn't go all the way. The whole SS line idea is to replace the rubber brake line right. Since we are having drums at the back and will have metal line goes to the wheel cylinder, but not the line(rubber) in front of it, so by replacing the line in front of it will have better fluid pressure to it because it won't expand as much as the factory rubber one when they heat up, it will also take less time for the fluid that goes to the cylinder. It is all about fluid travel/pressure. Correct me somebody if I'm wrong or my English is wrong, haha.

[supmet]

Originally Posted by Loren

The holes in brake rotors have NOTHING to do with surface area. They don't have anything to do with cooling, either. Their original purpose was to give the gasses produced by old-school brake pads (that haven't been used in over 40 years) someplace to go. Now, they're almost entirely there because folks think they look cool. They do add a bit of lightness, that's about their only true benefit.

I'm not talking about pad to rotor surface area - that is actually decreased. The entire surface area of the rotor is increased, allowing air to touch more hot metal, taking more heat. It also allows cooling of the center of the rotor, where an undrilled rotor only cools the outsides.

Originally Posted by Loren

More mass in a brake rotor allows them to absorb more heat over a longer period of time.

There you go. More mass = bigger thermal sink. It can absorb heat over a longer period of time, and dissipate that heat over a longer period of time as well, not faster.

Originally Posted by Loren

Holding up for a 2-minute autocross run? I never said ANY brake system wouldn't do that! I said "race track". I'm talking about lap after lap of braking from 90-50, from 70-30, from 80-40... over and over. I'm NOT making this up, I've seen cracked drilled brake rotors at race tracks on everything from Porsches and Audis to Mustangs.

Well I guess we can both agree that if someone is going to turn their yaris into a full blown race car, they should spend more than 100 dollars on rotors.

Originally Posted by Loren

Did you ever try just the Carbotech pads with the stock rotors? Hmmm?

Considering I had turned or replaced the stock rotors every 10,000 miles, and the R1 drilled and slotted rotors are roughly 1/2 the price of OEM, I didn't feel like gambling. I'm at 15k on the drilled with no problems.

Originally Posted by Tamago

warping the rotors will relate directly back to poor braking habits.

Or an automatic transmission and driving lots of hills. I constantly find myself choosing between overreving the transmission with limiting, or having no engine braking power and relying on my brakes for long steep hills. I choose a brake job over a new transmission. I'm sure if I lived in florida, your blanket statement would apply though. My corolla's brakes lasted three times as long with worse driving habits and driving in the same area. My current set up, if I had to estimate, looks like it will last somewhere between four and five times as long. So whether or not my braking habits are poor or not, these rotors seem to be holding up better.


edit: oh but the bling is totally why I bought them. All the people that pass within 3 feet and catch just the right angle looking through the little hole in my steelies drool in envy of my drilled goodness.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by AlainMikli

If you see the metal line after the rear SS line, you'll know why they didn't go all the way. The whole SS line idea is to replace the rubber brake line right. Since we are having drums at the back and will have metal line goes to the wheel cylinder, but not the line(rubber) in front of it, so by replacing the line in front of it will have better fluid pressure to it because it won't expand as much as the factory rubber one when they heat up, it will also take less time for the fluid that goes to the cylinder. It is all about fluid travel/pressure. Correct me somebody if I'm wrong or my English is wrong, haha.

Makes sense. I have rear discs so mine go all the way to the rear calipers. I did have
to order the lines designed for the Vios with rear discs.

[HTM Yaris]

I have to agree with Supmet . D/S rotors do dissipate heat better . More air to more surface area = more cooling . Thats the whole theory behind vented rotors . As far as D/S rotors chewing up pads like cheese graters , false . For your rotors to be grated there would have to be a trailing edge that is raised . ( Go check your kitchen drawer ) . Carbotech pads will decrease the life of your rotors simply b/c they are harder and will grind away more material . Carbotech pads do take longer to heat up which in turn helps the seals in your calipers from melting and also helps to keep your brake fluid from boiling as quickly .

Cracks form from a combination of circumstances . The main one being from a manufacturing defect . When you cast anything , it is virtually impossible to obtain an even thickness throughout . Combine this defect with some heat and poor braking habits and viola ...a crack will raise its ugly head . If there is one crack ( from hole to hole ) that rotor is still usable but you would be wise to monitor for more cracks . I've seen many people do this ( On track ) . If a crack extends from hole to hole to hole , then you need to trash that rotor . If a crack extends from the outer hole to the outer edge then you will get a cheese grater effect from the warpage that will follow .

Speaking about on track , I have used the R-1 rotors on track ( against R-1's advice) and they work pretty darn good . The last time I went to Roebling Road . We did 100 + consecutive laps . The Yaris did come in the pits for driver changes but the car never shut off . We experienced no brake problems . Actually the Pros who drove my car said the brakes were surprisingly good . ( I'll get to my secret in a minute ) . We tried our darndest to find a flaw anywhere in the car . The only one we found was lack of power . But the R-1's did glaze up in the mountains . Which is why I bought new rotors from brake warehouse . The R-1's are still good but just wanted to try something else .

My brake setup is as follows : Toyota pads , Brake Warehouse rotors , SS lines and ATE Blue fluid . Check the pics below . On the car are the BW rotors . On the ground are the R-1 rotors . Check out the differences . The R-1's have bigger holes and slightly longer slots . The R-1's also have the hole closer to the outer edge . The BW rotors have 2 rows of holes between the slots . The BW have a powder coated hub/hat . The R-1's were zinc plated in its entirety . Both have pointed end slots .

The things I don't like about the R-1's are that they took longer to bed in b/c on the zinc plating and they glazed in the mountains ( after turning a pretty shade of blue ) . With a good bit of fade

What I like about the BW rotors is that there are more holes , albeit smaller than the R-1's , and the holes are not so close to the outer edge . I also like the powder coating on the hub/hat area . The rust doesn't "bleed" through like they do on the R-1's . I've gotten these rotors a nice crimson color in the mountains with no adverse affects Just a tiny bit of fade .

Now for my trick . Notice the R-1s . The one on the right is how everybody else installs their rotors . The holes are slanted towards the rear of the car . The one on the left are slanted towards the front of the car . My theory is that with the holes slanted forward it allows the outer edge to cool first after leaving the pad area thereby producing more consistent results after repeated use . The pros who have driven my car all say the can't believe how consistent my brakes are especially with stock pads . Then I point out my rotor orientation and they go "Hmm interesting" .

6 hours have elapsed since I started this reply to the time I posted . ( GF's Mini broke and I had to go and fix it , Tranny and flat tire ) So I probably missed a few replies .

[Loren]

I'm not going to argue with you guys, but I'll tell you that I take most of my information from reliable sources. I consider a brake system engineer who also has experience building race cars and racing is pretty high on my list of reliable sources for brake info.

Here's what James Walker (I'm pretty sure he knows more about brakes than any of the rest of us do) has to say about brake rotors:
http://www.teamscr.com/motorsports/t...or-rotors.html

[cali yaris]

HTM, that is how I have my front rotors oriented as well.

[AlainMikli]

Originally Posted by staticorex

Woot. :p

forgot to upload the pic

[1NZYaris1]

Hmmmm , me likey a lot

[staticorex]

Nice. :)

[eii]

Did you reuse your stock shims on your break pads?

[AlainMikli]

Originally Posted by eii

Did you reuse your stock shims on your break pads?

Yes I did, perfect fitment on the Carbotech.

[eii]

Ok cool, thanks for the info. I just bought some carbotechs from garm as well, but I'm too sick to work on my car right now :'(

[HTM Yaris]

Hey Loren , no harm , no foul . I love a civilized discussion . On that note , let me point out some of the fallacies in Mr. Walker's thinking .

Mr Walker states that holes were developed to eliminate gassing . I can buy that . Mr Walker fails to mention that holes evacuate dust quicker ( which is also the reason for the slot on most brake pads ,which he fails to mention ) , which in turn increases coefficient of friction . Mr Walker goes on to mention that if weight is removed from the rotor that heat can increase a "little" , but he fails to mention how long that "little" bit of heat is sustained . He goes on to mention the "cheese grater" effect . This is another half truth . When a crack develops there is only a 50% chance that a grater effect will occur . If the leading edge of the crack is raised , then it effectively becomes a slot . As I stated previously if you have a large crack or a crack to the outer edge , I highly recommend a rotor replacement because your structural integrity is compromised . Mr Walker also didn't take into account that Nascar and F1 don't allow holes . Not to mention that Nascar and F1 use carbon rotors . He also doesn't mention the inconsistencies of the casting process as opposed to the machining process that produce exact tolerances , which Nascar and F1 use .

I laughed my ass off when I read the "Too Cool" segment . Everybody knows that when you freeze something the molecules will draw closer together and then when you heat it up it will revert back to its previous state . This is easily proven with water . Think ice cubes . Sometimes water expands because air gets trapped . I feel certain that the people at the testing facility laughed all the way to the bank .
In my opinion Mr Walker needs to refine his research methods and offer more conclusive objective data . But on the other hand , I don't offer any data either . Just simple logic and my own personal experiences . Which by the way are not for profit .
I could go on and on but my GF wants to apply some friction principles of our own .

[supmet]

Originally Posted by Loren

I'm not going to argue with you guys, but I'll tell you that I take most of my information from reliable sources. I consider a brake system engineer who also has experience building race cars and racing is pretty high on my list of reliable sources for brake info.

Here's what James Walker (I'm pretty sure he knows more about brakes than any of the rest of us do) has to say about brake rotors:
http://www.teamscr.com/motorsports/t...or-rotors.html

Originally Posted by http://www.teamscr.com/about-james-walker-jr/about-james-walker-jr.html

In addition, since 2001 he has served as a brake control system consultant for StopTech,

Originally Posted by http://www.stoptech.com/Products/rotors.shtml

AeroRotors are available either drilled or slotted.

Drilling or slotting helps wipe away the debris that forms between the pad and the disc, adds more bite, and can help the rear brakes to match the aesthetics of a front big brake kit.

I guess the company he is a consultant for doesn't buy into his hate of drilling rotors.



Oh and his ONLY argument(not just stating random facts he holds as truths) was that nascar and f1 cars don't use drilled brakes. Because, you know, the average car driver has a couple grand to spend on carbon fiber brakes, and replace them everytime they drive the car. Also, an engineer should realize the orders of magnitude of difference in the forces braking from 220 and braking from 120. But lets compare apples to oranges.(and do it multiple times in a one page article).

I passed a dinan bmw with slotted rotors and a carrera s with drilled going in to the store today. The ferrari 430 challenge came with drilled rotors one year. I'm gonna take the word of ferrari, dinan, and porsche over this random guy.

...(runs off to buy a fire suit and helmet, because if NASCAR does it, well by golly I'm gonna do it)

[Loren]

What do you guys not understand about "I'm not going to argue with you?"

My most compelling reason for "hating" cross-drilled rotors is simply having seen with my own two eyes far too many of them CRACKED at track events. Given the choice between driving on a race track with a rotor that's likely to crack and one that isn't, I'm going to choose the one that isn't. I'm funny that way.

Y'all can continue arguing amongst yourselves.

[supmet]

Originally Posted by Loren

What do you guys not understand about "I'm not going to argue with you?"

My most compelling reason for "hating" cross-drilled rotors is simply having seen with my own two eyes far too many of them CRACKED at track events. Given the choice between driving on a race track with a rotor that's likely to crack and one that isn't, I'm going to choose the one that isn't. I'm funny that way.

Y'all can continue arguing amongst yourselves.

I'm still debating/arguing, because I respect your opinion, and have drilled rotors. I come off snide, but that's just to make it fun For the race track, you are probably right. But for street or auto-x use, I really do think they dump heat faster(leading to better brake performance and longer lasting pads and rotors), clear dust, are slightly lighter, and yes - they look better. Plus you can get a pair for $110 from garm, or one stock rotor for $96 from the dealer. I think they are the best bang for the buck rotors for performance and longevity. As far as cracking, I'll never put as much heat in to them as fast as I did when I bed my pads again. If they took that they should be good.

I would be interested in some hard testing of the same rotor, same car, drilled and not, infrared thermometer mounted in the wheel well. Surely with some companies making claims of 200 degrees in difference there would be some, but I'm finding it extremely hard to find.