4 speakers vs 8 speakers

[sqcomp]

dammit penny!

Punctuate properly.

...just my rant for today.

[goku87]

Originally Posted by pennyracer

hi from what i understand rear fill music is only 2% of your sound no need to pump to much highes in the back the front stage is ware you want to spend the most time and money on i went from arc 6 1/2 " 2 ways up front and 5 1/4 " in the rears changed the fron to focal 3 ways wow what a big big gain still not sure if im going to go focal 2 way or maybe 8" focal 2 way for a litle more mid bass i use a arc audio 300x4 highes amp and little more for the 2 arc 10" subs getting ready to buld a fiberglass sub floor that hols 3 or 4 10" for a bit more kick :) it gets off real well already bit i want lots more i would like to hear some good input about using 3 or 4 diamond 10" subs powerd by my arc audio 1000x1 sub amp i have installed now and works very well it will run a 1 ohm load i have herd good things about diamond but is it better than the arc 10" subs i run now

those door panels are awesome. how did you do them? got any in-progress pics with a diy?

[talnlnky]

Originally Posted by PatrickJohnson

I should point out that even though you are only going to get 3db, +3db is actually doubling volume. having said that, unless youare going to run more power to the extra speakers, you won't even notice THAT much volume...

thats theoretical...
+3dB if you double cone area
+ 6 dB if you double cone area & rms

Human brain/ears perceive 6-10dB (different for each person) as a doubling in sound, not 3dB.

What I've left out so far tho is that for tones above 200hz you start to have issues with cancellation of the sound waves when you run more than 1 speaker. The more speakers you put in the car, the more convoluted the situation becomes.

So... if you need a way to throw some money away... yeah... you will get some gain, just not the gain you'd want.

[talnlnky]

Originally Posted by sqcomp

Which sub company was that again Taln?

company was Adire audio... they mostly did OEM design work.... they designed speakers for some of the bigger companies... you could go to best buy and buy there products, but never even know it.

[pennyracer]

Originally Posted by sqcomp

dammit penny!

Punctuate properly.

...just my rant for today.

did not know i was going to get graded on my post !!

[pennyracer]

here are some build pics

[WolfWings]

Originally Posted by talnlnky

thats theoretical...
+3dB if you double cone area
+ 6 dB if you double cone area & rms

Human brain/ears perceive 6-10dB (different for each person) as a doubling in sound, not 3dB.

What I've left out so far tho is that for tones above 200hz you start to have issues with cancellation of the sound waves when you run more than 1 speaker. The more speakers you put in the car, the more convoluted the situation becomes..

You get sound wave interference at all frequencies, actually. There's a reason the current world's loudest car is a single speaker driven by four amps in parallel to provide the power. Not even a pair, or a quad, just a single massive subwoofer.

6db is roughly twice the physical sound pressure change, but it's 10db for an apparent sound volume doubling for our ears, that's what the scale is actually calculated against: Every 10db = double the loudness to our ears, which ends up being about 3.16x the physical pressure at each doubling of apparently loudness.

And you get a lot more than 2% of the sound from the rear speakers, the problem you have to bear in mind is that sound is not a single fixed entity: You have various frequencies to deal with, and the most easilly damped frequencies are the highs. Those get muffled severely by your front seats when played through the rear speakers, though you can adjust for that. You are still (in effect) playing the speakers through a pillow, so it's vastly less efficient than using a good set of front speakers.

A single pair of front speakers is the most efficient setup for stereo listening.

I'll say that by itself so it's clear I'm not trying to say otherwise. But it is possible to set up a pair of rear speakers to sound very good too, if you have a reason to invest the added expense and time to do so. It's far more expensive either in time or seperate equalizer components for the rear and front than just slapping a good pair of speakers in the front and calling it a day.

[talnlnky]

Originally Posted by WolfWings

You get sound wave interference at all frequencies, actually. There's a reason the current world's loudest car is a single speaker driven by four amps in parallel to provide the power. Not even a pair, or a quad, just a single massive subwoofer.

yeah... but its a lot more noticable in the lower octaves than in the mid to upper octaves.... I reccomend against people doubling up on most speakers.... subs to a lesser extent due to the frequencies they are playing are harder to cancel out due to the longer than cabin size of the wave lengths.

Originally Posted by WolfWings

6db is roughly twice the physical sound pressure change, but it's 10db for an apparent sound volume doubling for our ears, that's what the scale is actually calculated against: Every 10db = double the loudness to our ears, which ends up being about 3.16x the physical pressure at each doubling of apparently loudness.

ECHO Echo echo.....

Originally Posted by WolfWings

I'll say that by itself so it's clear I'm not trying to say otherwise. But it is possible to set up a pair of rear speakers to sound very good too, if you have a reason to invest the added expense and time to do so. It's far more expensive either in time or seperate equalizer components for the rear and front than just slapping a good pair of speakers in the front and calling it a day.

Exactly.... MORE WORK to make them sound as good. 90% of people pay to have a shop just lazily throw 4 speakers & a deck in their car.... 8% will do the lazy install themselves, and about 1-2% of people will pay for a well thought out install, or actually do it themselves properly. Obviously most people don't put in the time for a proper 2 speaker install, so why would they want to put in even more work for a 4 speaker install?

4 speaker setups have a lower SQ potential than 2 speakers, UNTIL you start getting into DVD setups.


Also.... I went to the Official DB Drags website.... and here's what they show for the loudest vehicle ever..
http://www.termpro.com/asp/worldreco...on_Select=2009
Its in the 3+ subs category.... the single woofer category wasn't nearly as loud.

[pennyracer]

someone help me understand this thread ? so are we talking 2 way coaxil speakers or two seperates for highes ? it seems from what ive looked into the power rating on a two way or three way speakers are not super high so my thaught was ad a few more speakers to break the power up so you not working the hell out of two speakers rather than three speakers or more im not here to argue i like to just get the info so i understand things better for some who knows what works and maybe have done it also i have looked up some spendy speaker sets for thousands of dollors and they all seem to peak out at 200 rms thats seems way low maybe im missing something here im still trying to decide how money to invest in the rear highes on my liftback i only run 5 1/4" 2 way arc audio speakers for rear fill right now i will match brands so it will have to be focal speakers just not sure if i will take the time and money to go seperates or coaxil in the rears i am thing about running focal 8" two ways they sell and make a full speaker ecloser built whithin the real quarter panels just depends on the gain for for the time and money invested to do such a job

[talnlnky]

Originally Posted by pennyracer

someone help me understand this thread ? so are we talking 2 way coaxil speakers or two seperates for highes ? it seems from what ive looked into the power rating on a two way or three way speakers are not super high so my thaught was ad a few more speakers to break the power up so you not working the hell out of two speakers rather than three speakers or more im not here to argue i like to just get the info so i understand things better for some who knows what works and maybe have done it also i have looked up some spendy speaker sets for thousands of dollors and they all seem to peak out at 200 rms thats seems way low maybe im missing something here im still trying to decide how money to invest in the rear highes on my liftback i only run 5 1/4" 2 way arc audio speakers for rear fill right now i will match brands so it will have to be focal speakers just not sure if i will take the time and money to go seperates or coaxil in the rears i am thing about running focal 8" two ways they sell and make a full speaker ecloser built whithin the real quarter panels just depends on the gain for for the time and money invested to do such a job

I was under the impression that the OP was talking about co-axial speakers.... but even if he wasn't, I generally consider mids & Tweet in a component set at 1 speaker as it is doing the work of 1 coaxial unit... and they play different frequencies.

splitting up power between speakers might prolong life.... but only if you run them on different amp channels, or you turn the volume down. If you run them on the same amp channel you'll just drop the ohm load and (most likely) will double the power. Therefore running the amp hotter, and making it work harder.

Point remains... the more speakers you add, the more complicated the install gets... complications in stereos are generally not a good thing.


Also... just about any speaker setup with 100rms will get crazy loud on the mids & highs.... there's not really any market for a set that can take 200+ rms.... Keep in mind, the voice coil size on most door speakers is around 1" in diameter.... compared to subs which are 2, 3, or sometimes even 4". The thermal handling of a 1" or smaller voice coil isn't very high, and to make it take more power would require a longer, thus adding weight, which reduces the efficiency and makes it play lower (which isn't always desired in door speakers)... So, its possible that a 100w speaker could get just as loud as a speaker that is 200w rms. There's really a lot of variables.

If you want to go real crazy and be really loud.... look into Horns... aka HLCD's or Compression drivers.... basically, the tweeter setup you see on DANCE CLUB speakers. Their frequency range is generally 800hz - 18,000hz. You basically just need a good midrange, something like a 6.5 or 7" speaker that can really belt out the 60-2000hz tones is what you'd want.


Another option, tho it'd require new pods to be built would be to put your midrange in a sealed box, and your midbass in a sealed or even better, a ported box. That will help get you a few more dB's... but like I said.... it complicates the install, and will bring up new problems.

[goku87]

Originally Posted by talnlnky

Exactly.... MORE WORK to make them sound as good. 90% of people pay to have a shop just lazily throw 4 speakers & a deck in their car.... 8% will do the lazy install themselves, and about 1-2% of people will pay for a well thought out install, or actually do it themselves properly. Obviously most people don't put in the time for a proper 2 speaker install, so why would they want to put in even more work for a 4 speaker install?

I feel like you are grouping me with the "most people" group. That hurts.

[talnlnky]

Originally Posted by goku87

I feel like you are grouping me with the "most people" group. That hurts.

probably.... tho in my defense, in your glow gauge post you were unwilling to work in the rain.... sounds like most people to me.

[goku87]

well in my defense, im made of sugar. i would have melted. :P

[talnlnky]

Originally Posted by goku87

well in my defense, im made of sugar. i would have melted. :P

but once the sun came out.... you would've solidified and all would be good... cept you'd been in the shape of a pancake.