Another S/C'd member worried about his AFR - Page 6 - Toyota Yaris Forums

PETERPOOP · 03-25-2009, 11:32 PM

I have 2.25" exhaust, not 2.5".

dallas · 03-26-2009, 02:16 AM

I agree that a smaller pipe diameter may help, like 2 inches, but your terminology is wrong. Backpressure is never a good thing, you do not want back pressure for ultimate horspower. What you want is no back pressure but fast exhaust gas velocity, if you go too big on the pipe diameter you loose the exhast gas velocity and the coresponding hp and torque.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HTM Yaris

I think you peeps are looking in the wrong place . I bet if you put your stock exhaust back on you will find your HP and torque . Remember that thing called "back pressure" . You peeps have opened your exhaust too much , IMO .
Opening an exhaust too much will result in a loss of HP and torque . Either you need more airflow to fit your exhaust or you need to downsize your exhaust to create the proper back pressure .

Want proof ? Just check out Noogie vs Poop setup . Poop has the larger exhaust and lower numbers .......

HTM Yaris · 03-26-2009, 12:29 PM

Back pressure is a good thing . Some not alot . Without Backpressure(BP) there isn't any exhaust gas velocity . If no BP was a good thing all the real race cars would have exhaust gas being released straight from the exhaust port . ( Yes I realize that exhaust pipes also evacuate heat )

Try this , go turn on your garden hose . See how it flows ? To increase the velocity of the flow you can do 2 things 1. increase the volume of water or 2. partially cover the end of the hose with your thumb (creating BP) .

largeorangefont · 03-26-2009, 12:36 PM

I didnt read the entire thread but think I have a decent idea of what is going on.

Here is the first thing I will say here:

Comparing results from DIFFERENT DYNOS is not accurate and a waste of time.

Different dyno manufacturers read differently, and ambient conditions change from day to day. If you have dyno results before and after a mod on the SAME dyno, generally the gain (or loss) you see is close to accurate.

At this point, it looks like that if you want to fully realize the gains from a blitz SC, you will need addtional tuning.

A fuel controller may work, but if timing is still retarded, you are only going to LOSE more power. We need to find out what that box does. Lets say all it does is retard ignition timing. Then I would say remove the bot, get a fuel controller and adjust the fueling curve, run cooler spark plugs and always run premium fuel.

Adding a rising rate FP regulator is NOT a solution for a returnless car. There is really no mechanical fix to solve this particular problem. You are going to want a piggyback ECU or a reflash.

You guys are not going to fix this with fuel system mods. I assure you, you are not running out of fuel with a ~30 HP gain.

Peterpoop,

Your exhaust is fine, I would not worry about it. If you can get something to view your ignition advance in the meantime, do so.

LtNoogie · 03-26-2009, 12:44 PM

This is what Camelll posted as to what the fuel controller hooks into.

Blitz uses: RPM, power (ig/on), 4 injectors, air flow, 2 grounds, accelerator position sensor. etimago could you post a pinout of the ecu locations?

ECU Description/ Wiring Description/ ECU Loc/ ECU color
IFG1/ RPM/ C20-81/ Yellow
IGSW/ Power (ig/on)/ A21-28/ Red
L2/ Injector/ C20-107/ Gray
L1/ Injector/ C20-108/ Lt. Blue
VG/ Air Flow/ C20-118/ Gray
E01/ Ground/ C20-45/ Brown
L3/ Injector/ C20-106/ Pink
L4/ Injector/ C20-105/ Blue
VPA/ Accel Pos Sensor/ A21-55/ Red
E01/ Ground/ C20-45/ Brown

largeorangefont · 03-26-2009, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camelll

Cali yaris got in contact with blitz and blitz said the fuel controller is just that and does not do anything to timing. Noogie thinks the timing is being retarding because the knock sensor is picking up pre ignition.

Is the black box wired to the boost control knob? If so then the boost selection could retart the timing.

If not, then he could be right. I have a knockbox that we could listen to the engine with and see if it is indeed knocking.

LtNoogie · 03-26-2009, 12:44 PM

Oops, sorry Mike. I did not realize you responded!

LtNoogie · 03-26-2009, 12:45 PM

The boost control knob determines when the blower kicks in...25% throttle position, 50% throttle position, or 75% throttle position.

LtNoogie · 03-26-2009, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by largeorangefont

Is the black box wired to the boost control knob? If so then the boost selection could retart the timing.

If not, then he could be right. I have a knockbox that we could listen to the engine with and see if it is indeed knocking.

Where in the OC are you? If I don't chicken out due to this AFR, I might just run into you at Willow Springs on April 10. You can see what the car is doing on and off boost.

largeorangefont · 03-26-2009, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PETERPOOP

Well I need to look for some 1zz fuel injectors now. I'll try those on, get some numbers, and then later, put the 1zz tb on that I have. Maybe they will equal eachother out?

Nope. I assure you that your HP will be lower with larger injectors, and the car will run bad off boost and when cold.

largeorangefont · 03-26-2009, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LtNoogie

Where in the OC are you? If I don't chicken out due to this AFR, I might just run into you at Willow Springs on April 10. You can see what the car is doing on and off boost.

Irvine area.

I still need to confirm I can go and get signed up for the 10th.

largeorangefont · 03-26-2009, 01:00 PM

What are the pinouts for the black box and does it connect to the boost switch? my guess is yes.

The next step is who is brave enough to disconnect a couple wires and find out exactly what the black box does :)

largeorangefont · 03-26-2009, 01:36 PM

OK I found the pinouts for the black box. It just connect to fuel related components. We will have to do some data logging to see why the car is pulling timing under boost.

Long,

If you can, warm up your car and do a couple pulls in 2nd or 3rd.

Then pull the negative battery connector, or pull the fuse to the ECU. Pump the brakes a few times and reconnect the fuse or battery.

Go out and do another couple pulls and see if the timing you see increases, or increases and then decreases. Let us know the differences.

LtNoogie · 03-26-2009, 01:52 PM

Ok, it will have to be Friday evening. Did you see in an earlier post that with the S/C switch set to OFF, I see timing in the low to mid 20s? This is even uder heavy load.

largeorangefont · 03-26-2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LtNoogie

Ok, it will have to be Friday evening. Did you see in an earlier post that with the S/C switch set to OFF, I see timing in the low to mid 20s? This is even uder heavy load.

Yea I saw that. Off is no boost at all right? What AFR do you see when it is off?

LtNoogie · 03-26-2009, 02:14 PM

14.7 - 14.9 but I'll do some runs tonight when I have to climb several hills.

no boost pressure

Nexus1155 · 03-26-2009, 02:42 PM

thats what you are suppose to see when it is off. I usually get 14.5-14.7 when cruising in the truck. WOT goes to like 12.7 - 13.2. Factory did a decent job tuning fuel already

PETERPOOP · 03-26-2009, 10:19 PM

Ok. So I won't be doing the larger injectors and 1zz throttle body. I'll be waiting for long to get the numbers on friday afternoon and see what largeorange has to say then.

03-26-2009, 12:29 PM	#93
HTM Yaris resident senior View User's Garage Drives: 07 Yaris Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: south Carolina Posts: 814	Back pressure is a good thing . Some not alot . Without Backpressure(BP) there isn't any exhaust gas velocity . If no BP was a good thing all the real race cars would have exhaust gas being released straight from the exhaust port . ( Yes I realize that exhaust pipes also evacuate heat ) Try this , go turn on your garden hose . See how it flows ? To increase the velocity of the flow you can do 2 things 1. increase the volume of water or 2. partially cover the end of the hose with your thumb (creating BP) . __________________

03-26-2009, 12:44 PM	#95
LtNoogie View User's Garage Drives: '08 Bayou Blue LB AT Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: West Hills, CA Posts: 2,517	This is what Camelll posted as to what the fuel controller hooks into. Blitz uses: RPM, power (ig/on), 4 injectors, air flow, 2 grounds, accelerator position sensor. etimago could you post a pinout of the ecu locations? ECU Description/ Wiring Description/ ECU Loc/ ECU color IFG1/ RPM/ C20-81/ Yellow IGSW/ Power (ig/on)/ A21-28/ Red L2/ Injector/ C20-107/ Gray L1/ Injector/ C20-108/ Lt. Blue VG/ Air Flow/ C20-118/ Gray E01/ Ground/ C20-45/ Brown L3/ Injector/ C20-106/ Pink L4/ Injector/ C20-105/ Blue VPA/ Accel Pos Sensor/ A21-55/ Red E01/ Ground/ C20-45/ Brown __________________ aFe Intake \| Blitz Supercharger \| Megan Header \| TRD Exhaust \| NST Pulley Set TRD Shocks/Struts \| Tanabe NF210 Springs \| TRD Sway Bar \| Motegi TRAKLITE wheels \| Kuhmo Ecsta XS R1 Concepts slotted rotors \| Carbotech 1521 brake pads \| stainless steel brake lines \| Seibon vented carbon fiber hood

03-26-2009, 12:44 PM	#97
LtNoogie View User's Garage Drives: '08 Bayou Blue LB AT Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: West Hills, CA Posts: 2,517	Oops, sorry Mike. I did not realize you responded! __________________ aFe Intake \| Blitz Supercharger \| Megan Header \| TRD Exhaust \| NST Pulley Set TRD Shocks/Struts \| Tanabe NF210 Springs \| TRD Sway Bar \| Motegi TRAKLITE wheels \| Kuhmo Ecsta XS R1 Concepts slotted rotors \| Carbotech 1521 brake pads \| stainless steel brake lines \| Seibon vented carbon fiber hood

03-26-2009, 12:45 PM	#98
LtNoogie View User's Garage Drives: '08 Bayou Blue LB AT Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: West Hills, CA Posts: 2,517	The boost control knob determines when the blower kicks in...25% throttle position, 50% throttle position, or 75% throttle position. __________________ aFe Intake \| Blitz Supercharger \| Megan Header \| TRD Exhaust \| NST Pulley Set TRD Shocks/Struts \| Tanabe NF210 Springs \| TRD Sway Bar \| Motegi TRAKLITE wheels \| Kuhmo Ecsta XS R1 Concepts slotted rotors \| Carbotech 1521 brake pads \| stainless steel brake lines \| Seibon vented carbon fiber hood

03-26-2009, 01:52 PM	#104
LtNoogie View User's Garage Drives: '08 Bayou Blue LB AT Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: West Hills, CA Posts: 2,517	Ok, it will have to be Friday evening. Did you see in an earlier post that with the S/C switch set to OFF, I see timing in the low to mid 20s? This is even uder heavy load. __________________ aFe Intake \| Blitz Supercharger \| Megan Header \| TRD Exhaust \| NST Pulley Set TRD Shocks/Struts \| Tanabe NF210 Springs \| TRD Sway Bar \| Motegi TRAKLITE wheels \| Kuhmo Ecsta XS R1 Concepts slotted rotors \| Carbotech 1521 brake pads \| stainless steel brake lines \| Seibon vented carbon fiber hood

03-25-2009, 11:32 PM	#91
PETERPOOP View User's Garage Drives: 08 white liftback Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Oahu Posts: 3,674	I have 2.25" exhaust, not 2.5".

03-26-2009, 12:36 PM	#94
largeorangefont Break'em off some. View User's Garage Drives: 07 Yaris LB, 04 Cobra Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: So Cal, OC Posts: 854	I didnt read the entire thread but think I have a decent idea of what is going on. Here is the first thing I will say here: Comparing results from DIFFERENT DYNOS is not accurate and a waste of time. Different dyno manufacturers read differently, and ambient conditions change from day to day. If you have dyno results before and after a mod on the SAME dyno, generally the gain (or loss) you see is close to accurate. At this point, it looks like that if you want to fully realize the gains from a blitz SC, you will need addtional tuning. A fuel controller may work, but if timing is still retarded, you are only going to LOSE more power. We need to find out what that box does. Lets say all it does is retard ignition timing. Then I would say remove the bot, get a fuel controller and adjust the fueling curve, run cooler spark plugs and always run premium fuel. Adding a rising rate FP regulator is NOT a solution for a returnless car. There is really no mechanical fix to solve this particular problem. You are going to want a piggyback ECU or a reflash. You guys are not going to fix this with fuel system mods. I assure you, you are not running out of fuel with a ~30 HP gain. Peterpoop, Your exhaust is fine, I would not worry about it. If you can get something to view your ignition advance in the meantime, do so.

03-26-2009, 01:00 PM	#102
largeorangefont Break'em off some. View User's Garage Drives: 07 Yaris LB, 04 Cobra Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: So Cal, OC Posts: 854	What are the pinouts for the black box and does it connect to the boost switch? my guess is yes. The next step is who is brave enough to disconnect a couple wires and find out exactly what the black box does :)

03-26-2009, 01:36 PM	#103
largeorangefont Break'em off some. View User's Garage Drives: 07 Yaris LB, 04 Cobra Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: So Cal, OC Posts: 854	OK I found the pinouts for the black box. It just connect to fuel related components. We will have to do some data logging to see why the car is pulling timing under boost. Long, If you can, warm up your car and do a couple pulls in 2nd or 3rd. Then pull the negative battery connector, or pull the fuse to the ECU. Pump the brakes a few times and reconnect the fuse or battery. Go out and do another couple pulls and see if the timing you see increases, or increases and then decreases. Let us know the differences.

03-26-2009, 02:14 PM	#106
LtNoogie View User's Garage Drives: '08 Bayou Blue LB AT Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: West Hills, CA Posts: 2,517	14.7 - 14.9 but I'll do some runs tonight when I have to climb several hills. no boost pressure __________________ aFe Intake \| Blitz Supercharger \| Megan Header \| TRD Exhaust \| NST Pulley Set TRD Shocks/Struts \| Tanabe NF210 Springs \| TRD Sway Bar \| Motegi TRAKLITE wheels \| Kuhmo Ecsta XS R1 Concepts slotted rotors \| Carbotech 1521 brake pads \| stainless steel brake lines \| Seibon vented carbon fiber hood

03-26-2009, 02:42 PM	#107
Nexus1155 Bathroom + Laptop = <3 Drives: Audi Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Dorchester Posts: 1,009	thats what you are suppose to see when it is off. I usually get 14.5-14.7 when cruising in the truck. WOT goes to like 12.7 - 13.2. Factory did a decent job tuning fuel already

03-26-2009, 10:19 PM	#108
PETERPOOP View User's Garage Drives: 08 white liftback Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Oahu Posts: 3,674	Ok. So I won't be doing the larger injectors and 1zz throttle body. I'll be waiting for long to get the numbers on friday afternoon and see what largeorange has to say then.

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