Toyota...We're Number....Two???

[DevilGirl]

Originally Posted by bronsin

No hate here just the facts. VW makes a defect prone car. Once they made defective ignition modules that failed. There were so many of them they couldnt make new ignition modules fast enough to replace them all. (you have to wonder why they couldnt) Nothing could be adapted to fit. So some folks waited MONTHS with an undrivable car. NEVER NEVER NEVER wil I buy a VW.

TDI or non-TDI? There is actually significant difference between the two. I will never touch a non-diesel VW.

1. They eat fuel like crazy.
2. Don't hold up as well.

There have been a few times over the years where a part was faulty (I can specifically name the 05.5-06.5 years of the Jetta had a faulty dual mass flywheel. This was due to switching manufacturers. Those issues have since been fixed.

[thebarber]

Originally Posted by bronsin

No hate here just the facts. VW makes a defect prone car. Once they made defective ignition modules that failed. There were so many of them they couldnt make new ignition modules fast enough to replace them all. (you have to wonder why they couldnt) Nothing could be adapted to fit. So some folks waited MONTHS with an undrivable car. NEVER NEVER NEVER wil I buy a VW.

as opposed to the yaris w/ the flammable sound deadening, the camry's w/ the recalled transmissions, and the matrix w/ its breaking drivers window and junk clutches

ya, vw sucks...

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by bronsin

The car is an engineering and ecomonic fraud.

I disagree. The car delivers on its promise, where is the fraud? You know the price, you get the advertised mpg, where's the problem?

It all depends on how much you're driving, it's simple math, let me give you an example. I'm going to compare the Prius at 50 mpg with a car that gives you, say, 25 mpg, which costs, say $5k less than the Prius.

At 20k miles a year, the Prius will need 400 gallons vs. 800 for our hypothetical car. That's 400 gallons x $2.50 a gallon = $1,000 a year in savings. So after 5 years you break even on your investment and anything after that is pure savings into your pocket.

At 30k miles a year you break even after 3.3 years.
At 40k miles a year you break even after 2.5 years.

There is no fraud, you just need to do the math and see if it makes sense for you. Since I'm driving less than 10k miles a year, I wouldn't consider it. But it's just math, no emotions/politics...

[bronsin]

Heres my math:

Yaris $15,000
Prius $25,000

Driving a Yaris 100,000k miles @35 mpg burning gas @ $2.50 a gallon costs $7142
Driving a Prius 100k miles @45 mpg gas @ $2.50 costs $5555

Thats saves >$2000. So you STILL have $8000 in outlay to recover. That wont happen till 400,000 MORE miles. (@$2.50 a gallon)

Am I wrong?

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by DevilGirl

TDI or non-TDI? There is actually significant difference between the two. I will never touch a non-diesel VW.

1. They eat fuel like crazy.
2. Don't hold up as well.

There have been a few times over the years where a part was faulty (I can specifically name the 05.5-06.5 years of the Jetta had a faulty dual mass flywheel. This was due to switching manufacturers. Those issues have since been fixed.

Yes gas. I owned a 240D back when gas was $1 a gallon and diesel 79 cents. Diesels arent cost effective any more. Youll never get the money you spent extra for them back. SEE PRIUS.

[DevilGirl]

Originally Posted by bronsin

Yes gas. I owned a 240D back when gas was $1 a gallon and diesel 79 cents. Diesels arent cost effective any more. Youll never get the money you spent extra for them back. SEE PRIUS.

Desired torque + HP + fuel economy = diesel FTW

The only way a gas car becomes cost effective is to have it have less torque and HP. Whereas diesel sacrificies very little in terms of torque and HP to have the fuel economy.

[127.0.0.1]

Originally Posted by bronsin

Heres my math:

Yaris $15,000
Prius $25,000

Driving a Yaris 100,000k miles @35 mpg burning gas @ $2.50 a gallon costs $7142
Driving a Prius 100k miles @45 mpg gas @ $2.50 costs $5555

Thats saves >$2000. So you STILL have $8000 in outlay to recover. That wont happen till 400,000 MORE miles. (@$2.50 a gallon)

Am I wrong?

after 400,000 miles, add new prius batteries 4 grand. (on top of anything else mechanical they both share, tires and upkeep of systems)

[why?]

VW's are too expensive, and too many of them have crazy ongoing electrical gremlins. You can do the same math with a VW diesel that you can with a Yaris. You'd need to drive a rediculous amount of miles a year to actually save money.

Now the Yaris diesel, if a reasonable price, could make financial sense.

Of course, there are many other reasons to buy a car.

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by bronsin

Heres my math:

Yaris $15,000
Prius $25,000

Driving a Yaris 100,000k miles @35 mpg burning gas @ $2.50 a gallon costs $7142
Driving a Prius 100k miles @45 mpg gas @ $2.50 costs $5555

Thats saves >$2000. So you STILL have $8000 in outlay to recover. That wont happen till 400,000 MORE miles. (@$2.50 a gallon)

Am I wrong?

No, you're not wrong Your math is correct and I agree with it, since I own a Yaris and not a Prius. But some may consider the comparison to be unfair, since the Yaris and the Prius are not really in the same category. Yaris probably qualifies as a sub-compact, while the Prius is a compact, more cargo space, more space for passengers as well, so I'd say the comparison is better balanced if you take a Corolla or at least a Scion xD...

The only thing I did not agree with was the "fraud" statement Otherwise you're right on the money.

[SilverGlow]

Originally Posted by thebarber

as opposed to the yaris w/ the flammable sound deadening, the camry's w/ the recalled transmissions, and the matrix w/ its breaking drivers window and junk clutches

ya, vw sucks...

The problems you listed for Toyota cars is not even 1/100th of the problems found with VW's.

You are right....ya, VW sucks!!!

[slothman86]

I'm not worried too much about where Toyota is unless they are going away. I will continue to buy Toyota until i find a reason not to.

[Wattz]

VW makes good looking cars, and cars that perform well in theory... But the actual build quality and execution of their ideas is where they fail. Most VWs in the USA are built in Mexico. The Wolfsberg editions are built in Germany, but they also cost a bit more.

Compare to Toyota, who (I'm sorry) build bland looking cars that are just too practical in many cases. The overall American mindset is ANYTHING BUT practical. Consider that just a few years ago large trucks were at the forefront of the vehicle market. Americans have their priorities backwards and tend to take things at face value.

[why?]

If the "American Mindset" was anything but practical, something other than a Camry or a Accord would be the best selling model for the past however many years. F-150's are at the front of the market because they are practical. And have about 1000 different uses and modifications, from towing to box trucks to everything under the sun.

[Wattz]

Maybe I should narrow my comment down to South Eastern USA mindset? Down here you generally see pristine trucks and SUVs that have never been exposed to anything but commuting. The next biggest vehicular culture is the big, fast car. American-made gas guzzlers that weigh far more than they should. Third is the crossover. Fourth might be the mid-size.

I would say practical car buyers down here are or 5th or 6th in population size.

[why?]

Originally Posted by Wattz

Maybe I should narrow my comment down to South Eastern USA mindset? Down here you generally see pristine trucks and SUVs that have never been exposed to anything but commuting. The next biggest vehicular culture is the big, fast car. American-made gas guzzlers that weigh far more than they should. Third is the crossover. Fourth might be the mid-size.

I would say practical car buyers down here are or 5th or 6th in population size.

lol, you are trying too hard to simply insult people down here. Go to any decent size parking lot. The majority of vehicles are cars.

You can go anywhere in the world and find the crazy people that stick out. Just because they stick out does not mean they are average though.

[Wattz]

I wasn't aware I was trying to insult anyone. Apparently, I have. I think it's safe to assume that the majority of Americans (the perpetrators of the credit crisis, the real estate bubble, and so on) make big decisions based on impulse and immediate gratification. Hence the success of the Chrysler 300, Ford Mustang, Chevy Camaro, etc. All totally self-gratifying cars. There is no practicality involved. They're big, they're fast, they guzzle gas. The mindset 3-4 years ago was big trucks and SUVs. Big, massive engines, gas guzzlers. The fact that top-selling domestics tend to be huge, powerful, and inefficient should imply what American corporations think that their primary customers (Americans...) want that.

Ford Europe has success with small, practical vehicles, because that's what Europeans buy.

The companies wouldn't make the vehicles if they didn't sell.

[why?]

Originally Posted by Wattz

I wasn't aware I was trying to insult anyone. Apparently, I have. I think it's safe to assume that the majority of Americans (the perpetrators of the credit crisis, the real estate bubble, and so on) make big decisions based on impulse and immediate gratification. Hence the success of the Chrysler 300, Ford Mustang, Chevy Camaro, etc. All totally self-gratifying cars. There is no practicality involved. They're big, they're fast, they guzzle gas. The mindset 3-4 years ago was big trucks and SUVs. Big, massive engines, gas guzzlers. The fact that top-selling domestics tend to be huge, powerful, and inefficient should imply what American corporations think that their primary customers (Americans...) want that.

Ford Europe has success with small, practical vehicles, because that's what Europeans buy.

The companies wouldn't make the vehicles if they didn't sell.

Well from that pov, you are correct. But it is just a stereotype. Automakers make a ton more on a $50,000 SUV then they do on a $30,000 car. There are other agencies involved in the other economic problems you mentioned. Plus crappy pop culture, and the stories are told of fools who mess up rather than the people that live right. But your point is pretty spot on in general.

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by fmicle

The only thing I did not agree with was the "fraud" statement Otherwise you're right on the money.

Fraud is a strong word. Prius owners are so enamoured of their cars. I guess I should leave them to it!